Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (@Collector, Dream keeper) Intent to Register to Agora
On 5/18/23 13:45, Yachay Wayllukuq via agora-discussion wrote: Maybe we could use a metaphor or just something similar and illustrative? "A player may begin to Chant for a particular action (...) When a player has been Chanting for (...)" "Chant", "Spellcast" or "Summon"; perhaps. Fantasy-themed things for 'charging up' to do something. Could be any other theme too. Just to open up more words we could resort to. That's always a decent idea, tho it can be thematically incoherent when we lean too far into different metaphors for various things (not necessarily wrong but aesthetically displeasing IMO). In this case I think the most obvious solution is to require the phrasing "I table an intent to" instead of just "I intend to". I may submit something to that effect later. -- nix Prime Minister, Herald
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (@Collector, Dream keeper) Intent to Register to Agora
On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 11:22 AM ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: > > On Thu, 2023-05-18 at 11:16 -0700, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > > hehe we can still fool old players sometimes - "intend" has a > > "specific meaning" for registration as well as for other contexts, so > > beokirby registered exactly as per the rules: > > > > > An Unregistered person CAN (unless explicitly forbidden or > > > prevented by the rules) register by publishing a message that > > > indicates reasonably clearly and reasonably unambiguously that e > > > intends to become a player at that time. > > It's still worth warning the new players, though, because "intend" > wording works for registration, and (for a different reason) for the > first step in taking a tabled action, but doesn't work for anything > else. > > IIRC the reason it works for registration is partly that new players > kept getting it wrong, and partly because we wanted to change the > registration rules to have an entire new set of "did my registration > work?" CFJs. That change was ages ago now, though, so I might be > misremembering the details. CFJ 1263 (about my first registration, lol) was the genesis of this. The rules at the time required a player to "request registration" - Caller Blob felt that a statement of "I register" wasn't a request, and requests should be required for it to work, as it "should inculcate some humility into new Players". Judge Steve disagreed, and felt that "it is a bad idea to be too nit-picky about the precise forms of words used to effect game actions. This is especially true where new Players are concerned." The result of that CFJ initially to accept "I register" as a successful "request" to register, followed by a removal of the 'request' language from the rule and the gradual softening of the strictness of that requirement over time, as a few more accidental registration failures happened. Of course, as it got squishier/more flexible, it led to registration attempts purposefully pushing the envelope (as Agorans do) on just how flexible one could express registration intent. So it didn't really decrease the "X is a player" CFJs - though it made them harder to trigger accidentally by newbies, you had to work at it to have a controversial registration. https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/?1263 -G.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (@Collector, Dream keeper) Intent to Register to Agora
Maybe we could use a metaphor or just something similar and illustrative? "A player may begin to Chant for a particular action (...) When a player has been Chanting for (...)" "Chant", "Spellcast" or "Summon"; perhaps. Fantasy-themed things for 'charging up' to do something. Could be any other theme too. Just to open up more words we could resort to. On Thursday, May 18, 2023, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > There's a bit of a discussion on Discord right now, that "intend" (or > synonyms like "plan") have an implication of "doing in future, not > now" in many contexts, which adds to the confusion for registration - > and has specifically called out in the past in terms of "consent now" > versus "consent later". A verb like "desire" as in "desires to become > a player at that time" might work better as it better indicates "wants > to/consents to right now". > > -G. > > On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 11:33 AM Yachay Wayllukuq via agora-discussion > wrote: > > > > Hm. We should probably use different words for registration "intents" and > > tabled "intents". > > > > In fact, I think it could be good to keyword things in the ruleset, sort > of > > like how MTG and plenty of other games do it, like; [Lifesteal] or > [Flash]. > > I believe we already have something like it in "Mother, May I?", but > > perhaps it could be productive to expand it to the ruleset's terms in > > general. Like that, it's much more obvious that it's some agora-specific > > language for a certain mechanic and it doesn't mean what it reads on the > > tin. > > > > On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 8:22 PM ais523 via agora-discussion < > > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2023-05-18 at 11:16 -0700, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion > wrote: > > > > hehe we can still fool old players sometimes - "intend" has a > > > > "specific meaning" for registration as well as for other contexts, so > > > > beokirby registered exactly as per the rules: > > > > > > > > > An Unregistered person CAN (unless explicitly forbidden or > > > > > prevented by the rules) register by publishing a message that > > > > > indicates reasonably clearly and reasonably unambiguously > that e > > > > > intends to become a player at that time. > > > > > > It's still worth warning the new players, though, because "intend" > > > wording works for registration, and (for a different reason) for the > > > first step in taking a tabled action, but doesn't work for anything > > > else. > > > > > > IIRC the reason it works for registration is partly that new players > > > kept getting it wrong, and partly because we wanted to change the > > > registration rules to have an entire new set of "did my registration > > > work?" CFJs. That change was ages ago now, though, so I might be > > > misremembering the details. > > > > > > -- > > > ais523 > > > >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (@Collector, Dream keeper) Intent to Register to Agora
There's a bit of a discussion on Discord right now, that "intend" (or synonyms like "plan") have an implication of "doing in future, not now" in many contexts, which adds to the confusion for registration - and has specifically called out in the past in terms of "consent now" versus "consent later". A verb like "desire" as in "desires to become a player at that time" might work better as it better indicates "wants to/consents to right now". -G. On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 11:33 AM Yachay Wayllukuq via agora-discussion wrote: > > Hm. We should probably use different words for registration "intents" and > tabled "intents". > > In fact, I think it could be good to keyword things in the ruleset, sort of > like how MTG and plenty of other games do it, like; [Lifesteal] or [Flash]. > I believe we already have something like it in "Mother, May I?", but > perhaps it could be productive to expand it to the ruleset's terms in > general. Like that, it's much more obvious that it's some agora-specific > language for a certain mechanic and it doesn't mean what it reads on the > tin. > > On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 8:22 PM ais523 via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, 2023-05-18 at 11:16 -0700, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > > > hehe we can still fool old players sometimes - "intend" has a > > > "specific meaning" for registration as well as for other contexts, so > > > beokirby registered exactly as per the rules: > > > > > > > An Unregistered person CAN (unless explicitly forbidden or > > > > prevented by the rules) register by publishing a message that > > > > indicates reasonably clearly and reasonably unambiguously that e > > > > intends to become a player at that time. > > > > It's still worth warning the new players, though, because "intend" > > wording works for registration, and (for a different reason) for the > > first step in taking a tabled action, but doesn't work for anything > > else. > > > > IIRC the reason it works for registration is partly that new players > > kept getting it wrong, and partly because we wanted to change the > > registration rules to have an entire new set of "did my registration > > work?" CFJs. That change was ages ago now, though, so I might be > > misremembering the details. > > > > -- > > ais523 > >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (@Collector, Dream keeper) Intent to Register to Agora
On 5/18/23 13:32, Yachay Wayllukuq via agora-discussion wrote: Hm. We should probably use different words for registration "intents" and tabled "intents". In fact, I think it could be good to keyword things in the ruleset, sort of like how MTG and plenty of other games do it, like; [Lifesteal] or [Flash]. I believe we already have something like it in "Mother, May I?", but perhaps it could be productive to expand it to the ruleset's terms in general. Like that, it's much more obvious that it's some agora-specific language for a certain mechanic and it doesn't mean what it reads on the tin. I think the "A player CAN "envision"..." format is already adding keywords. I think the issue here is that the chosen keyword is also a very common word. Going to the MTG metaphor, keywords are usually very specifically not words that would get confused with other things. It might be best to change the mechanism for tabling actions to "I table an intent to..." so it's very clearly distinct from just casually talking about your intents. -- nix Prime Minister, Herald
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (@Collector, Dream keeper) Intent to Register to Agora
Hm. We should probably use different words for registration "intents" and tabled "intents". In fact, I think it could be good to keyword things in the ruleset, sort of like how MTG and plenty of other games do it, like; [Lifesteal] or [Flash]. I believe we already have something like it in "Mother, May I?", but perhaps it could be productive to expand it to the ruleset's terms in general. Like that, it's much more obvious that it's some agora-specific language for a certain mechanic and it doesn't mean what it reads on the tin. On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 8:22 PM ais523 via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On Thu, 2023-05-18 at 11:16 -0700, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > > hehe we can still fool old players sometimes - "intend" has a > > "specific meaning" for registration as well as for other contexts, so > > beokirby registered exactly as per the rules: > > > > > An Unregistered person CAN (unless explicitly forbidden or > > > prevented by the rules) register by publishing a message that > > > indicates reasonably clearly and reasonably unambiguously that e > > > intends to become a player at that time. > > It's still worth warning the new players, though, because "intend" > wording works for registration, and (for a different reason) for the > first step in taking a tabled action, but doesn't work for anything > else. > > IIRC the reason it works for registration is partly that new players > kept getting it wrong, and partly because we wanted to change the > registration rules to have an entire new set of "did my registration > work?" CFJs. That change was ages ago now, though, so I might be > misremembering the details. > > -- > ais523 >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (@Collector, Dream keeper) Intent to Register to Agora
On Thu, 2023-05-18 at 11:16 -0700, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > hehe we can still fool old players sometimes - "intend" has a > "specific meaning" for registration as well as for other contexts, so > beokirby registered exactly as per the rules: > > > An Unregistered person CAN (unless explicitly forbidden or > > prevented by the rules) register by publishing a message that > > indicates reasonably clearly and reasonably unambiguously that e > > intends to become a player at that time. It's still worth warning the new players, though, because "intend" wording works for registration, and (for a different reason) for the first step in taking a tabled action, but doesn't work for anything else. IIRC the reason it works for registration is partly that new players kept getting it wrong, and partly because we wanted to change the registration rules to have an entire new set of "did my registration work?" CFJs. That change was ages ago now, though, so I might be misremembering the details. -- ais523
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (@Collector, Dream keeper) Intent to Register to Agora
On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 11:09 AM nix via agora-discussion wrote: > > On 5/18/23 13:06, beokirby agora via agora-business wrote: > > I intend to register as a player of Agora. > > My name is beokirby. > > > > I will then grant myself a welcome package and envision a dream of gardens > Welcome beokirby! Keep in mind that phrases like "I intend" actually > have a specific meaning in Agora. If you want to do something, it's > usually best to just say "I do this" so instead of "I intend to > register" you can just say "I register." hehe we can still fool old players sometimes - "intend" has a "specific meaning" for registration as well as for other contexts, so beokirby registered exactly as per the rules: > An Unregistered person CAN (unless explicitly forbidden or > prevented by the rules) register by publishing a message that > indicates reasonably clearly and reasonably unambiguously that e > intends to become a player at that time. -G.
DIS: Re: BUS: (@Collector, Dream keeper) Intent to Register to Agora
On 5/18/23 13:06, beokirby agora via agora-business wrote: I intend to register as a player of Agora. My name is beokirby. I will then grant myself a welcome package and envision a dream of gardens Welcome beokirby! Keep in mind that phrases like "I intend" actually have a specific meaning in Agora. If you want to do something, it's usually best to just say "I do this" so instead of "I intend to register" you can just say "I register." -- nix Prime Minister, Herald
