Re: DIS: Re: BUS: CFJs 3471-3472

[Owen Jacobson]

> On May 24, 2017, at 5:32 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 23 May 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> https://ap02.alpine.washington.edu/alpine/alpine/2.0/view/0/agora/80517 
>> On May 23, 2017, at 5:27 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> 
>> CFJ 3472:  白票 yields "a white paper".  This is clearly not a valid vote.
>> I judge 3472 FALSE.
>> 
>> 
>> I’m surprised at this. I had assumed this was meant to translate as PRESENT 
>> - it’s an unmarked, but cast, ballot.
> 
> First, I took a hard line on this.  We should look at the resulting English
> exactly, not put ourselves in the mind of "since it's in a foreign language,
> maybe it's a colloquialism and we should look for alternate meanings."
> Because that encourages looking for meaning in things that are ambiguous.
> 
> So looking at the exact text, I thought that, previous to these CFJs, if
> someone (in English) posted "a white paper" as a vote, there's no really
> good English colloquialism that would lead us to PRESENT.   An alternate
> interpretation, for example, is "I'm leaving this entirely blank and not
> casting a vote, and saying NO VOTE in a funny way to signal a protest or
> not wanting to be part of quorum”.

That’s eminently reasonable. Thank you.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: CFJs 3471-3472

[Kerim Aydin]

On Tue, 23 May 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>  https://ap02.alpine.washington.edu/alpine/alpine/2.0/view/0/agora/80517 
> On May 23, 2017, at 5:27 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> CFJ 3472:  白票 yields "a white paper".  This is clearly not a valid vote.
> I judge 3472 FALSE.
> 
> 
> I’m surprised at this. I had assumed this was meant to translate as PRESENT - 
> it’s an unmarked, but cast, ballot.

First, I took a hard line on this.  We should look at the resulting English
exactly, not put ourselves in the mind of "since it's in a foreign language,
maybe it's a colloquialism and we should look for alternate meanings."  
Because that encourages looking for meaning in things that are ambiguous.

So looking at the exact text, I thought that, previous to these CFJs, if
someone (in English) posted "a white paper" as a vote, there's no really
good English colloquialism that would lead us to PRESENT.   An alternate
interpretation, for example, is "I'm leaving this entirely blank and not
casting a vote, and saying NO VOTE in a funny way to signal a protest or
not wanting to be part of quorum".

DIS: Re: BUS: CFJs 3471-3472

[Owen Jacobson]

> On May 23, 2017, at 5:27 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> CFJ 3472:  白票 yields "a white paper".  This is clearly not a valid vote.
> I judge 3472 FALSE.

I’m surprised at this. I had assumed this was meant to translate as PRESENT - 
it’s an unmarked, but cast, ballot.

-o



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DIS: Re: BUS: CFJs 3471-3472

[Josh T]

The following information is for the future thesis writer about translation
and history of language on Agora:

反対 is both the verb "to oppose" or "to object" and a noun which can mean
"against" or "objection". On a Japanese ballot paper, the conventional
choices are 賛成 ("support") and 反対 ("against"/"oppose"), although this is
not something I had expected people to know ahead of time.

白票 is a blank ("white") ballot. I had attempted to cast a blank ballot.

I had not expected any of those things to have worked (and indeed they
didn't, and were judged to have not), but it seems like the type of thing
that was worth trying anyway.

天火狐

On 23 May 2017 at 17:36, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Tue, 23 May 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > (If the context is entirely contained in the foreign language; e.g.
> > "I vote XXX on proposal YYY" is written as its own message and not in
> reply
> > to a thread, it *is* in fact unreasonable effort, as it requires each
> > officer to determine out of context whether the message is directed at
> > them or not.  That was the case in CFJ 1460, but not here).
>
> Addendum:  this portion of the argument is also proof against certain types
> of scams, e.g. submitting a message in a foreign language that attempts
> to do something bad Without Objection, in the hope it prevents people
> from objecting.  That would not clearly indicate the message contents
> beyond
> unreasonable effort (as it requires everyone interpret the message in
> order to
> understand the type of public message and response required).
>
>
>
>