Re: DIS: Various questions

[Alex Smith]

On Thu, 2017-09-28 at 14:24 -0400, ATMunn . wrote:
> What exactly is quorum? I read rule 879 stating that it's a thing,
> but it doesn't seem to explain what it is and what it means.

It's a mechanism that causes votes to end with no result if not enough
people participate in them. This exists in both Agora and in real-life
legislative systems for much the same reason: it prevents a small
minority of people forcing something through while other people aren't
paying attention.

More specifically, quorum in Agora is a number attached to Agoran
Decisions. See rules 955 and 2168 for the precise effect it has, but at
a rough approximation, it causes voting periods to be first extended,
and then ended with no useful result, if fewer people than quorum have
a valid vote on the decision.

Quorum's also connected to PRESENT votes; a vote of PRESENT helps to
satisfy the quorum restriction even though it doesn't express an
opinion on the decision itself. So if, e.g., you don't care about
whether a proposal passes or don't want to express an opinion, but
don't think that there's an attempt at foul play on the proposal or to
force it through, you can vote PRESENT to reduce the chance it ends up
inquorate, whilst allowing other players' votes to determine whether it
actually passes.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Various questions

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 28 Sep 2017, ATMunn . wrote:
> What exactly is quorum? I read rule 879 stating that it's a thing, 
> but it doesn't seem to explain what it is and what it means.

R955:  "If there is more than one option, and the number of valid 
ballots is less than the quorum of that decision, the outcome is 
instead FAILED QUORUM."

Re: DIS: Various questions

[ATMunn .]

What exactly is quorum? I read rule 879 stating that it's a thing, but it
doesn't seem to explain what it is and what it means.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:37 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:

> >> On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:41 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> >
> > A few more questions about offices:
> >
> > When do elections happen? Just whenever the ADoP feels like starting one?
> >Whenever someone starts one with either support, vacancy, or the
> expiration of 90 days.
>
> Or when the ADoP feels like it :). And it's 4 support, so it's hard to
> get. But yeah I've abused my ADoP power a few times already to get
> more equitable elections.
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:30 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> >>One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
>  Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
>  myself.
> >
> > G. actually won that election like two days ago :(
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 11:05 AM, ATMunn . 
> wrote:
> >> On second thought, I don't think I really want the responsibilities of
> an
> >> office yet. I think I'll stay unemployed for now.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, ATMunn . 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks, everyone, for your answers.
> >>>
> >>> I'm not too interested in the Superintendent office, so I don't think
> I'll
> >>> go for that.
> >>> I could go for the Referee, since o said e wouldn't mind me taking it,
> but
> >>> I'm not really sure I want it either.
> >>>
> >>> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
> >>> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
> myself. (Or
> >>> could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the
> deputisation
> >>> thing)
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >>>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  > On Sep 23, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Owen Jacobson 
> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > * Voting to enter a CFJ into moot if there’s a serious doubt about
> the
>  > judgement (r. 911, rare),
> 
>  This has happened for the first time relatively recently and it has
> come
>  up a few times since.
> 
>  > * Voting to win the game (r. 2482, rare),
> 
>  Something is supposed to be happening in regards to this
> 
>  > * Voting for a proposal author to win the Silver Quill for the year
> (r.
>  > 2444, rare).
> 
>  And this...
> 
>  
>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > From V.J. Rada
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Various questions

[VJ Rada]

>> On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:41 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>
> A few more questions about offices:
>
> When do elections happen? Just whenever the ADoP feels like starting one?
>Whenever someone starts one with either support, vacancy, or the expiration of 
>90 days.

Or when the ADoP feels like it :). And it's 4 support, so it's hard to
get. But yeah I've abused my ADoP power a few times already to get
more equitable elections.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:30 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
 Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
 myself.
>
> G. actually won that election like two days ago :(
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 11:05 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>> On second thought, I don't think I really want the responsibilities of an
>> office yet. I think I'll stay unemployed for now.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, everyone, for your answers.
>>>
>>> I'm not too interested in the Superintendent office, so I don't think I'll
>>> go for that.
>>> I could go for the Referee, since o said e wouldn't mind me taking it, but
>>> I'm not really sure I want it either.
>>>
>>> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
>>> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for myself. (Or
>>> could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the deputisation
>>> thing)
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>>  wrote:





 > On Sep 23, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
 >
 >
 > * Voting to enter a CFJ into moot if there’s a serious doubt about the
 > judgement (r. 911, rare),

 This has happened for the first time relatively recently and it has come
 up a few times since.

 > * Voting to win the game (r. 2482, rare),

 Something is supposed to be happening in regards to this

 > * Voting for a proposal author to win the Silver Quill for the year (r.
 > 2444, rare).

 And this...

 
 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Various questions

[VJ Rada]

>One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
>>> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
>>> myself.

G. actually won that election like two days ago :(

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 11:05 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> On second thought, I don't think I really want the responsibilities of an
> office yet. I think I'll stay unemployed for now.
>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, everyone, for your answers.
>>
>> I'm not too interested in the Superintendent office, so I don't think I'll
>> go for that.
>> I could go for the Referee, since o said e wouldn't mind me taking it, but
>> I'm not really sure I want it either.
>>
>> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
>> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for myself. (Or
>> could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the deputisation
>> thing)
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Sep 23, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > * Voting to enter a CFJ into moot if there’s a serious doubt about the
>>> > judgement (r. 911, rare),
>>>
>>> This has happened for the first time relatively recently and it has come
>>> up a few times since.
>>>
>>> > * Voting to win the game (r. 2482, rare),
>>>
>>> Something is supposed to be happening in regards to this
>>>
>>> > * Voting for a proposal author to win the Silver Quill for the year (r.
>>> > 2444, rare).
>>>
>>> And this...
>>>
>>> 
>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Various questions

[ATMunn .]

On second thought, I don't think I really want the responsibilities of an
office yet. I think I'll stay unemployed for now.

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:

> Thanks, everyone, for your answers.
>
> I'm not too interested in the Superintendent office, so I don't think I'll
> go for that.
> I could go for the Referee, since o said e wouldn't mind me taking it, but
> I'm not really sure I want it either.
>
> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for myself.
> (Or could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the
> deputisation thing)
>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 23, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > * Voting to enter a CFJ into moot if there’s a serious doubt about the
>> judgement (r. 911, rare),
>>
>> This has happened for the first time relatively recently and it has come
>> up a few times since.
>>
>> > * Voting to win the game (r. 2482, rare),
>>
>> Something is supposed to be happening in regards to this
>>
>> > * Voting for a proposal author to win the Silver Quill for the year (r.
>> 2444, rare).
>>
>> And this...
>>
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>
>

Re: Fwd: DIS: Various questions

[ATMunn .]

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Gaelan Steele <g...@canishe.com> wrote:

> A little note on the all-caps words we use all the time:
>
> CAN, POSSIBLE - the action is possible. For example, any player CAN vote
> on a proposal by announcement.
> MAY - doing so is not banned. This is often used to clarify something or
> make an exception to another rule. For example, normally you need to have
> broken the rules to get a card, but the Prime Minister MAY issue one for
> any reason. Note that MAY does not allow you to perform an action that
> would otherwise be IMPOSSIBLE, just one that is ILLEGAL.
> SHALL, MUST - players can be punished for not doing so. For example, most
> officers MUST publish a report on a regular basis.
> SHOULD, ENCOURAGED - a recommendation with no legal force. People may get
> annoyed at you, but that’s about it.
>
> CANNOT, IMPOSSIBLE - attempts to do so don’t work. For example, players
> CANNOT change the rules except by as permitted by the rules.
> SHALL NOT - attempts to do so may work, but you can be punished. For
> example, players SHALL NOT violate pledges.
> SHOULD NOT - same as SHOULD. You can do it, but people might be annoyed at
> you.
>

Yeah, thanks. I mostly understand those already, but thanks anyways.

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 1:21 PM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
> It's in Rule 1728 and 2124, but those rules are a little confusingly
> written.
>
> If the rules say you can do something "with N support", then you make
> an "announcment of intent" announcing what you intend to do, and you
> have to say you need N support to do it (if N isn't specified, it
> defaults to 1).
>
> Then, when N or more people publish something that says they support
> you doing it, you say something like "having gotten N support, I do
> this."
>
> "Without N objections" is the opposite.  You post the intent, saying
> you'll do it Without N objections.  There's then a 4 day waiting
> period.  If fewer than N people have announced that they Object in
> that time, then you can say "having received fewer then N objections,
> I do this".  Again N defaults to 1.
>
> Finally there's an "with N Agoran Consent" option which is like a
> mini-election, after 4 days the ratio of Supporters/Objectors must
> exceed N.
>
> Support and objections an also be withdrawn.
>
> You're supposed to list your supporters/objectors when you do the
> action, but that's enforced with a SHOULD and hardly anyone ever does,
> and shorthand is used a lot.
>
>
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > Yeah.
> >
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: ATMunn . <iamingodsa...@gmail.com>
> > Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 at 17:37
> > Subject: Re: DIS: Various questions
> > To: Agora Nomic discussions (DF) <agora-discussion@agoranomic.org>
> >
> >
> > I see.
> >
> > When something says that you can do something "with support," does that
> mean that you say you're going to do something, people decide whether or
> not to support you, and if there's enough support it
> > happens?
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >   
> >   Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >   p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >   > On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:41 AM, ATMunn . <iamingodsa...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >   >
> >   > A few more questions about offices:
> >   >
> >   > When do elections happen? Just whenever the ADoP feels like
> starting one?
> >
> >   Whenever someone starts one with either support, vacancy, or the
> expiration of 90 days.
> >
> >   >
> >   > How exactly does deputisation work? Do you just say "I deputize
> for this office" and if nobody objects, you get the office? The rule on
> that is kinda tricky to understand.
> >
> >   You fulfill an obligation that they should have done and declare
> it as deputisation and then you get the office.
> >
> >   >
> >   > On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Kerim Aydin <
> ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >   > > The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part,
> when I took
> >   > > over the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five
> years,
> >   > > updating records.
> >   >
> >   > Just in the specific Tailor case, I was thinking all of the
> recent doubt
> >   > over the Apathy and Tournament wins and CuddleBeam's speaker
> thing makes
> >   > it pretty unclear which recent Ribbon awards were valid unless
> you were
> >   > following along...
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Ah, I understand now. Thanks!

Re: DIS: Various questions

[Gaelan Steele]

A little note on the all-caps words we use all the time:

CAN, POSSIBLE - the action is possible. For example, any player CAN vote on a 
proposal by announcement. 
MAY - doing so is not banned. This is often used to clarify something or make 
an exception to another rule. For example, normally you need to have broken the 
rules to get a card, but the Prime Minister MAY issue one for any reason. Note 
that MAY does not allow you to perform an action that would otherwise be 
IMPOSSIBLE, just one that is ILLEGAL. 
SHALL, MUST - players can be punished for not doing so. For example, most 
officers MUST publish a report on a regular basis. 
SHOULD, ENCOURAGED - a recommendation with no legal force. People may get 
annoyed at you, but that’s about it. 

CANNOT, IMPOSSIBLE - attempts to do so don’t work. For example, players CANNOT 
change the rules except by as permitted by the rules. 
SHALL NOT - attempts to do so may work, but you can be punished. For example, 
players SHALL NOT violate pledges. 
SHOULD NOT - same as SHOULD. You can do it, but people might be annoyed at you. 

Gaelan 

> On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:21 AM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> It's in Rule 1728 and 2124, but those rules are a little confusingly
> written.
> 
> If the rules say you can do something "with N support", then you make
> an "announcment of intent" announcing what you intend to do, and you
> have to say you need N support to do it (if N isn't specified, it 
> defaults to 1).
> 
> Then, when N or more people publish something that says they support
> you doing it, you say something like "having gotten N support, I do
> this."
> 
> "Without N objections" is the opposite.  You post the intent, saying
> you'll do it Without N objections.  There's then a 4 day waiting
> period.  If fewer than N people have announced that they Object in
> that time, then you can say "having received fewer then N objections,
> I do this".  Again N defaults to 1.
> 
> Finally there's an "with N Agoran Consent" option which is like a
> mini-election, after 4 days the ratio of Supporters/Objectors must
> exceed N.
> 
> Support and objections an also be withdrawn.
> 
> You're supposed to list your supporters/objectors when you do the
> action, but that's enforced with a SHOULD and hardly anyone ever does, 
> and shorthand is used a lot.
> 
> 
>> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
>> Yeah.
>> 
>> -- Forwarded message -
>> From: ATMunn . <iamingodsa...@gmail.com>
>> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 at 17:37
>> Subject: Re: DIS: Various questions
>> To: Agora Nomic discussions (DF) <agora-discussion@agoranomic.org>
>> 
>> 
>> I see.
>> 
>> When something says that you can do something "with support," does that mean 
>> that you say you're going to do something, people decide whether or not to 
>> support you, and if there's enough support it
>> happens?
>> 
>> On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>> <p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:41 AM, ATMunn . <iamingodsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A few more questions about offices:
>>> 
>>> When do elections happen? Just whenever the ADoP feels like starting one?
>> 
>>  Whenever someone starts one with either support, vacancy, or the 
>> expiration of 90 days.
>> 
>>> 
>>> How exactly does deputisation work? Do you just say "I deputize for this 
>>> office" and if nobody objects, you get the office? The rule on that is 
>>> kinda tricky to understand.
>> 
>>  You fulfill an obligation that they should have done and declare it as 
>> deputisation and then you get the office.
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>>>> The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part, when I took
>>>> over the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five years,
>>>> updating records.
>>> 
>>> Just in the specific Tailor case, I was thinking all of the recent doubt
>>> over the Apathy and Tournament wins and CuddleBeam's speaker thing makes
>>> it pretty unclear which recent Ribbon awards were valid unless you were
>>> following along...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: Fwd: DIS: Various questions

[Kerim Aydin]

It's in Rule 1728 and 2124, but those rules are a little confusingly
written.

If the rules say you can do something "with N support", then you make
an "announcment of intent" announcing what you intend to do, and you
have to say you need N support to do it (if N isn't specified, it 
defaults to 1).

Then, when N or more people publish something that says they support
you doing it, you say something like "having gotten N support, I do
this."

"Without N objections" is the opposite.  You post the intent, saying
you'll do it Without N objections.  There's then a 4 day waiting
period.  If fewer than N people have announced that they Object in
that time, then you can say "having received fewer then N objections,
I do this".  Again N defaults to 1.

Finally there's an "with N Agoran Consent" option which is like a
mini-election, after 4 days the ratio of Supporters/Objectors must
exceed N.

Support and objections an also be withdrawn.

You're supposed to list your supporters/objectors when you do the
action, but that's enforced with a SHOULD and hardly anyone ever does, 
and shorthand is used a lot.


On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> Yeah.
> 
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: ATMunn . <iamingodsa...@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 at 17:37
> Subject: Re: DIS: Various questions
> To: Agora Nomic discussions (DF) <agora-discussion@agoranomic.org>
> 
> 
> I see.
> 
> When something says that you can do something "with support," does that mean 
> that you say you're going to do something, people decide whether or not to 
> support you, and if there's enough support it
> happens?
> 
> On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
> <p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> 
>   
>   Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
>   > On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:41 AM, ATMunn . <iamingodsa...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>   >
>   > A few more questions about offices:
>   >
>   > When do elections happen? Just whenever the ADoP feels like starting 
> one?
> 
>   Whenever someone starts one with either support, vacancy, or the 
> expiration of 90 days.
> 
>   >
>   > How exactly does deputisation work? Do you just say "I deputize for 
> this office" and if nobody objects, you get the office? The rule on that is 
> kinda tricky to understand.
> 
>   You fulfill an obligation that they should have done and declare it as 
> deputisation and then you get the office.
> 
>   >
>   > On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> 
> wrote:
>   >
>   >
>   > On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>   > > The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part, when I 
> took
>   > > over the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five years,
>   > > updating records.
>   >
>   > Just in the specific Tailor case, I was thinking all of the recent 
> doubt
>   > over the Apathy and Tournament wins and CuddleBeam's speaker thing 
> makes
>   > it pretty unclear which recent Ribbon awards were valid unless you 
> were
>   > following along...
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
> 
> 
> 
>

Fwd: DIS: Various questions

[Cuddle Beam]

Yeah.

-- Forwarded message -
From: ATMunn . <iamingodsa...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 at 17:37
Subject: Re: DIS: Various questions
To: Agora Nomic discussions (DF) <agora-discussion@agoranomic.org>


I see.

When something says that you can do something "with support," does that
mean that you say you're going to do something, people decide whether or
not to support you, and if there's enough support it happens?

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:41 AM, ATMunn . <iamingodsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > A few more questions about offices:
> >
> > When do elections happen? Just whenever the ADoP feels like starting one?
>
> Whenever someone starts one with either support, vacancy, or the
> expiration of 90 days.
>
> >
> > How exactly does deputisation work? Do you just say "I deputize for this
> office" and if nobody objects, you get the office? The rule on that is
> kinda tricky to understand.
>
> You fulfill an obligation that they should have done and declare it as
> deputisation and then you get the office.
>
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > > The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part, when I
> took
> > > over the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five years,
> > > updating records.
> >
> > Just in the specific Tailor case, I was thinking all of the recent doubt
> > over the Apathy and Tournament wins and CuddleBeam's speaker thing makes
> > it pretty unclear which recent Ribbon awards were valid unless you were
> > following along...
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: DIS: Various questions

[ATMunn .]

I see.

When something says that you can do something "with support," does that
mean that you say you're going to do something, people decide whether or
not to support you, and if there's enough support it happens?

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:41 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> >
> > A few more questions about offices:
> >
> > When do elections happen? Just whenever the ADoP feels like starting one?
>
> Whenever someone starts one with either support, vacancy, or the
> expiration of 90 days.
>
> >
> > How exactly does deputisation work? Do you just say "I deputize for this
> office" and if nobody objects, you get the office? The rule on that is
> kinda tricky to understand.
>
> You fulfill an obligation that they should have done and declare it as
> deputisation and then you get the office.
>
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > > The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part, when I
> took
> > > over the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five years,
> > > updating records.
> >
> > Just in the specific Tailor case, I was thinking all of the recent doubt
> > over the Apathy and Tournament wins and CuddleBeam's speaker thing makes
> > it pretty unclear which recent Ribbon awards were valid unless you were
> > following along...
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: DIS: Various questions

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:41 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
> A few more questions about offices:
> 
> When do elections happen? Just whenever the ADoP feels like starting one?

Whenever someone starts one with either support, vacancy, or the expiration of 
90 days.

> 
> How exactly does deputisation work? Do you just say "I deputize for this 
> office" and if nobody objects, you get the office? The rule on that is kinda 
> tricky to understand.

You fulfill an obligation that they should have done and declare it as 
deputisation and then you get the office.

> 
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part, when I took
> > over the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five years,
> > updating records.
> 
> Just in the specific Tailor case, I was thinking all of the recent doubt
> over the Apathy and Tournament wins and CuddleBeam's speaker thing makes
> it pretty unclear which recent Ribbon awards were valid unless you were
> following along...
> 
> 
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Various questions

[ATMunn .]

A few more questions about offices:

When do elections happen? Just whenever the ADoP feels like starting one?

How exactly does deputisation work? Do you just say "I deputize for this
office" and if nobody objects, you get the office? The rule on that is
kinda tricky to understand.

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part, when I took
> > over the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five years,
> > updating records.
>
> Just in the specific Tailor case, I was thinking all of the recent doubt
> over the Apathy and Tournament wins and CuddleBeam's speaker thing makes
> it pretty unclear which recent Ribbon awards were valid unless you were
> following along...
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Various questions

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part, when I took 
> over the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five years, 
> updating records.

Just in the specific Tailor case, I was thinking all of the recent doubt
over the Apathy and Tournament wins and CuddleBeam's speaker thing makes
it pretty unclear which recent Ribbon awards were valid unless you were
following along...

Re: DIS: Various questions

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 23, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> The history section of the monthly report seems to have been left in extreme 
> disrepair. When I took it, I was told it would be find to leave it behind, 
> but I wanted to update it.

Well, that’s wonderful of you. Thank you for taking the time!

-o



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Re: DIS: Various questions

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

The history section of the monthly report seems to have been left in extreme 
disrepair. When I took it, I was told it would be find to leave it behind, but 
I wanted to update it.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 23, 2017, at 4:24 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 23, 2017, at 4:22 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part, when I took 
>> over the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five years, updating 
>> records.
> 
> The portions of reports which are self-ratifying are supposed to address that 
> need. What happened?
> 
> -o
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Various questions

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 23, 2017, at 4:22 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part, when I took over 
> the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five years, updating 
> records.

The portions of reports which are self-ratifying are supposed to address that 
need. What happened?

-o




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Re: DIS: Various questions

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

The catching up since that last holders is the hardest part, when I took over 
the office of Registrar, I had to go back at least five years, updating records.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 23, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I was elected to the office in that last big batch of elections (I *think*
> we got the resolutions done correctly now!).
> 
> I'm happy to give it up, it was mainly because no one else volunteered.
> There were several ribbon awards given recently and you might want to
> wait until I catch it up (was planning to do so in the next couple days).
> 
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
>> On Sat, 2017-09-23 at 15:26 -0400, ATMunn . wrote:
>>> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
>>> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
>>> myself.
>>> (Or could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the
>>> deputisation thing)
>> 
>> It became vacant when I deregistered, and I'm not sure anyone's taken
>> it yet?
>> 
>> However, the report, despite being due, isn't actually overdue yet
>> (that won't happen until October), so a deputisation attempt would fail
>> rule 2160 condition 2. This seems like a problem in the rules to me; if
>> the office is vacant, there's no reason to expect its tasks to be done
>> on time.
>> 
>> --
>> ais523
>> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Various questions

[Kerim Aydin]

I was elected to the office in that last big batch of elections (I *think*
we got the resolutions done correctly now!).

I'm happy to give it up, it was mainly because no one else volunteered.
There were several ribbon awards given recently and you might want to
wait until I catch it up (was planning to do so in the next couple days).

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 2017-09-23 at 15:26 -0400, ATMunn . wrote:
> > One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
> > Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
> > myself.
> > (Or could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the
> > deputisation thing)
> 
> It became vacant when I deregistered, and I'm not sure anyone's taken
> it yet?
> 
> However, the report, despite being due, isn't actually overdue yet
> (that won't happen until October), so a deputisation attempt would fail
> rule 2160 condition 2. This seems like a problem in the rules to me; if
> the office is vacant, there's no reason to expect its tasks to be done
> on time.
> 
> -- 
> ais523
>

Re: Proto: Vacant Deputisation (Was: Re: DIS: Various questions)

[ATMunn .]

typo: offixe

Otherwise sounds good

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Title: Vacant Deputisation Fix
> Power:3
> Text: {
> Replace the second item of the second numbered list of "Deputisation",
> with the following:
>   2. Either (i) A time limit by which the rules require the action to be
>  performed has expired or (ii) the offixe is vacant.
> }
>
> I think this should fix that problem.
>
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 23, 2017, at 3:48 PM, Alex Smith 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 2017-09-23 at 15:26 -0400, ATMunn . wrote:
> >> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
> >> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
> >> myself.
> >> (Or could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the
> >> deputisation thing)
> >
> > It became vacant when I deregistered, and I'm not sure anyone's taken
> > it yet?
> >
> > However, the report, despite being due, isn't actually overdue yet
> > (that won't happen until October), so a deputisation attempt would fail
> > rule 2160 condition 2. This seems like a problem in the rules to me; if
> > the office is vacant, there's no reason to expect its tasks to be done
> > on time.
> >
> > --
> > ais523
>
>

Proto: Vacant Deputisation (Was: Re: DIS: Various questions)

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Title: Vacant Deputisation Fix
Power:3
Text: {
Replace the second item of the second numbered list of "Deputisation", with the 
following:
  2. Either (i) A time limit by which the rules require the action to be
 performed has expired or (ii) the offixe is vacant.
}

I think this should fix that problem.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 23, 2017, at 3:48 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 2017-09-23 at 15:26 -0400, ATMunn . wrote:
>> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
>> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
>> myself.
>> (Or could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the
>> deputisation thing)
> 
> It became vacant when I deregistered, and I'm not sure anyone's taken
> it yet?
> 
> However, the report, despite being due, isn't actually overdue yet
> (that won't happen until October), so a deputisation attempt would fail
> rule 2160 condition 2. This seems like a problem in the rules to me; if
> the office is vacant, there's no reason to expect its tasks to be done
> on time.
> 
> --
> ais523



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Re: DIS: Various questions

[Alex Smith]

On Sat, 2017-09-23 at 15:26 -0400, ATMunn . wrote:
> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
> myself.
> (Or could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the
> deputisation thing)

It became vacant when I deregistered, and I'm not sure anyone's taken
it yet?

However, the report, despite being due, isn't actually overdue yet
(that won't happen until October), so a deputisation attempt would fail
rule 2160 condition 2. This seems like a problem in the rules to me; if
the office is vacant, there's no reason to expect its tasks to be done
on time.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Various questions

[ATMunn .]

Thanks, everyone, for your answers.

I'm not too interested in the Superintendent office, so I don't think I'll
go for that.
I could go for the Referee, since o said e wouldn't mind me taking it, but
I'm not really sure I want it either.

One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for myself.
(Or could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the
deputisation thing)

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 23, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >
> >
> > * Voting to enter a CFJ into moot if there’s a serious doubt about the
> judgement (r. 911, rare),
>
> This has happened for the first time relatively recently and it has come
> up a few times since.
>
> > * Voting to win the game (r. 2482, rare),
>
> Something is supposed to be happening in regards to this
>
> > * Voting for a proposal author to win the Silver Quill for the year (r.
> 2444, rare).
>
> And this...
>
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>

Re: DIS: Various questions

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

> On Sep 23, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> 
> * Voting to enter a CFJ into moot if there’s a serious doubt about the 
> judgement (r. 911, rare),

This has happened for the first time relatively recently and it has come up a 
few times since.

> * Voting to win the game (r. 2482, rare),

Something is supposed to be happening in regards to this

> * Voting for a proposal author to win the Silver Quill for the year (r. 2444, 
> rare).

And this...


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com


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Re: DIS: Various questions

[Owen Jacobson]

On Sep 23, 2017, at 10:47 AM, Nic Evans  wrote:

> Assessor, Arbitor, Rulekeepor, Tailor, and Secretary are generally held by 
> more experienced players because they're complex and important.

Objection! I took over Secretary very, very early in my tenure, as Murphy had 
gone idle. My only qualifications were “I think Organizations are neat.”

I still do, but the office now is considerably different from the office then.

-o




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Re: DIS: Various questions

[Owen Jacobson]

On Sep 23, 2017, at 10:21 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:

> I've put together a list of various different questions I have. I don't 
> expect all of them to get answered, but feel free to answer any that you can.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the whole "floating value" thing? What determines it, and what does 
> it do? It's not really clear in the rules.

The fundamental idea is that various gameplay actions get cheaper (in shinies) 
the more money players hold. Per a conversation I had with nichdel before the 
proposal passed, the intent is to create a boom-bust dynamic: when actions are 
cheap, many players will do them, driving the cost up, causing players to slow 
down again, causing the price to drop.

The implementation is that once a week, the Secretary (hello!) sets the 
Floating Value to exactly Agora’s balance at that moment. A bunch of prices are 
defined in terms of simple calculations on the FV. I’ve got a proposal in 
flight (proposal 7876, which I expect to pass) that unifies all the calculated 
amounts:

>Floating Value is a natural singleton switch, tracked by the
>Secretary. Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the Floating
>Value switch CANNOT be flipped to a value other than the number
>of Shinies owned by Agora.
> 
>The following Floating Derived Values are defined:
> 
>* Pend Cost: 1/20th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>* CFJ Cost: 1/20th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>* Authorship Reward: 1/40th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>* Pend Reward: 1/40th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>* CFJ Reward: 1/20th of the Floating Value, rounded up.
>* Stamp Value: 1/5th of the Floating Value, rounded up.


The proposal also contains a bunch of supporting changes to other rules, and if 
you’re interested, you can read it here: 
> I’d 
be curious to hear if the proposed changes to the wording of the rules makes 
things clearer, since that was one of my goals.

By experience, the boom-bust cycle “works” in as much as it does actually go 
through booms and busts: when the Floating Value is high, and the Pend Cost 
(the number of shinies needed to pend a proposal) goes up, fewer proposals are 
pended. When it goes down - and the lowest we’ve seen it is 1 sh. - people 
write and pend more proposals. The message linked above has, I believe, the 
most proposals distributed in a single distribution in the last year or so.

> In regards to
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Owen Jacobson  > wrote:
> * Write a proposal that is impossible to vote against.
> How would you actually do that? I'm just curious, I don't intend on doing it.

That’s a good question, and I didn’t have a specific answer in mind when I 
asked it. A couple of folks have supposed that I meant “write a proposal nobody 
in their right mind would vote against,” and that’s certainly one way to do it. 
I was also considering the possibilities under CFJ 3559, but I didn’t do any 
work to fully connect “proposals can be more complicatedly self-affecting than 
I realized” with anything.

I will note that the bar for “a proposal nobody in their right mind would vote 
against” is a very weirdly-shaped constraint, since

* There are a couple of pledges in play where specific players have promised to 
vote against specific things until conditions change, which could reasonably be 
read to imply that they’d vote against obviously good ideas if they want to 
uphold their pledges, on the one hand, and

* Proposals that implement obviously-problematic systems, like real estate 
ownership models, sometimes pass unanimously anyways simply because they’re 
interesting. (I’m still stunned, not to say extremely flattered, that nobody 
voted against that proposal.)

> What exactly is an Agoran Decision? Is it just a thing that people vote on?

It’s a gameplay process where the outcome is determined by a vote by the 
players, rather than by direct application of the rules or by someone’s 
unilateral decision. There are a few kinds:

* Voting FOR/AGAINST proposals, initiated by the Promotor and resolved by the 
Assessor (r. 1607),
* Voting for elected officers, initiated by any player and resolved by the ADoP 
in most cases (r. 2154),
* Voting to enter a CFJ into moot if there’s a serious doubt about the 
judgement (r. 911, rare),
* Voting to win the game (r. 2482, rare),
* Voting for a proposal author to win the Silver Quill for the year (r. 2444, 
rare).

> I've had a few people suggest running for an office as something I could do 
> as a new player. How would I go about doing that, and what office(s?) should 
> I run for?

The ADoP’s metareport (just published) contains a list of all offices, and when 
each last published a report. It’s a good place to start shopping; 

Re: DIS: Various questions

[Nic Evans]

On 09/23/17 09:21, ATMunn . wrote:
> I've put together a list of various different questions I have. I
> don't expect all of them to get answered, but feel free to answer any
> that you can.
>
> 
>
> What is the whole "floating value" thing? What determines it, and what
> does it do? It's not really clear in the rules.

The cost and reward of things varies based on how many shinies Agora
itself owns (basically how much is in the central reserve). But we
didn't want it to fluctuate wildly throughout the week because that's
hard to track. So instead we check how much the bank has once a week and
set the Floating Value to that. So named because it 'floats' at a
certain point instead of changing with the actual reserve amount.

>
> In regards to
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Owen Jacobson  > wrote:
>
> * Write a proposal that is impossible to vote against.
>
> How would you actually do that? I'm just curious, I don't intend on
> doing it.
>

I think e meant a simple good proposal, but e may have also been
refering to a scam I don't remember.

> What exactly is an Agoran Decision? Is it just a thing that people
> vote on?

It's a generic term for something that requires player input. So yes,
generally a type of vote.

>
> I've had a few people suggest running for an office as something I
> could do as a new player. How would I go about doing that, and what
> office(s?) should I run for?

You can gain an office in a few ways. One is by an election, which is
generally initiated by the ADoP. Simply vote for yourself in the
election and indicate why you want the office, and others may vote for
you (probably will, unless someone else really wants the office).
Another way is to deputize. If a responsibility of an office isn't being
fulfilled, you can deputize to do it yourself. Once you successfully do
that, you take that office.

Reportor has basically no requirements. Prime Minister has a few powers
but no responsibilities, so it's easy but also highly desirable.

Registrar and ADoP basically just require monitoring activity throughout
the week, so they're good introductory ones as well. Regkeepor and
Superintendent might also belong on that list, but since they're new
more experienced players won't be as helpful at catching mistakes.
Promotor is a step or two up from those.

Referee would be an interesting new player one if it wasn't currently
buggy.

Assessor, Arbitor, Rulekeepor, Tailor, and Secretary are generally held
by more experienced players because they're complex and important.

I don't know enough about Argonomist or Surveyor to have an opinion yet.

You can't be elected to Speaker, it's gotten by being awarded it after
winning.

>
> Do Trust Tokens do anything other than give you the slim potential of
> winning if everyone gives you one?

That's pretty much it.

>
> Could someone summarize PSS's banking proposal? It seems interesting,
> but also quite complex.
>
> 
>
> Those are all the questions I have at the moment. If I think of more,
> I may put them here.



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Re: DIS: Various questions

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 23, 2017, at 10:21 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
> I've put together a list of various different questions I have. I don't 
> expect all of them to get answered, but feel free to answer any that you can.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the whole "floating value" thing? What determines it, and what does 
> it do? It's not really clear in the rules.

The floating value is the balance of Agora at the time the Secretary declares 
the floating value.

> 
> In regards to
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> * Write a proposal that is impossible to vote against.
> How would you actually do that? I'm just curious, I don't intend on doing it.

E means it more figuratively, as in small bug fixes or such, which people won't 
have a problem with.

> 
> What exactly is an Agoran Decision? Is it just a thing that people vote on?

Yes.

> 
> I've had a few people suggest running for an office as something I could do 
> as a new player. How would I go about doing that, and what office(s?) should 
> I run for?

Registrar is one of the easiest offices, unless you are incompetent, as I have 
been at times. Another good one is Tailor because that one you only have to 
change if other people do stuff. Those are the easiest I can think of off the 
tom of my head, but I haven't held all the offices, so feel free to correct me, 
if you disagree.

> 
> Do Trust Tokens do anything other than give you the slim potential of winning 
> if everyone gives you one?

No.

> 
> Could someone summarize PSS's banking proposal? It seems interesting, but 
> also quite complex.

I am slightly biased, but in short it allows players to from banks, which can 
issue bonds and currency for the purposes of economic policy.

> 
> 
> 
> Those are all the questions I have at the moment. If I think of more, I may 
> put them here.



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DIS: Various questions

[ATMunn .]

I've put together a list of various different questions I have. I don't
expect all of them to get answered, but feel free to answer any that you
can.



What is the whole "floating value" thing? What determines it, and what does
it do? It's not really clear in the rules.

In regards to
On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> * Write a proposal that is impossible to vote against.

How would you actually do that? I'm just curious, I don't intend on doing
it.

What exactly is an Agoran Decision? Is it just a thing that people vote on?

I've had a few people suggest running for an office as something I could do
as a new player. How would I go about doing that, and what office(s?)
should I run for?

Do Trust Tokens do anything other than give you the slim potential of
winning if everyone gives you one?

Could someone summarize PSS's banking proposal? It seems interesting, but
also quite complex.



Those are all the questions I have at the moment. If I think of more, I may
put them here.