Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

>>> I think it consistently strips one leading space, no? If so, as long as you 
>>> indent everything with at least one space, it’ll be 0-1 spaces, but lined 
>>> up either way.
>>>
>>> Gaelan
>>
>> Sure, but I don't think that would fix the original problem, where the
>> first column of text was either "z" for zombie or " " for not-zombie.
>> Maybe I'll use "_" or "." for not-zombie.
>>
>> -- 
>> Falsifian
> 
> Could just indent the whole table by one space. 
> 
> Gaelan

That's clever. Maybe I'll do that if I remember. (I wish Apple Mail
would just show the email properly...)

-- 
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion]

> On Aug 17, 2020, at 6:27 AM, Falsifian via agora-discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 2020-08-17 02:26, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion wrote:
>> 
>> 
 On Aug 16, 2020, at 5:45 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 2020-08-16 01:23, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion wrote:
 
>> On Aug 15, 2020, at 6:05 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion 
>>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> Test before changing the setting:
>> 
>> indented 0
>> indented 1
>> indented 2
>>  indented 3
>>   indented 4
> 
> After:
> 
> indented 0
> indented 1
> indented 2
> indented 3
>  indented 4
> 
> -- 
> Falsifian
 
 These are identical (and broken) on iOS Apple mail.
 
 Gaelan
>>> 
>>> :-(
>>> 
>>> Maybe I should just do what G. does: avoid starting any line with a space.
>>> 
>>> As far as I can tell, iOS Apple mail must be broken if it rendered both
>>> of those wrong, but on the other hand it's not that hard to avoid
>>> leading spaces.
>>> 
>>> Test with leading "|" at the start of each line:
>>> 
>>> |indented 0
>>> | indented 1
>>> |  indented 2
>>> |   indented 3
>>> |indented 4
>>> 
>>> I really hope at least that works.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Falsifian
>> 
>> That renders correctly. 
>> 
>> I think it consistently strips one leading space, no? If so, as long as you 
>> indent everything with at least one space, it’ll be 0-1 spaces, but lined up 
>> either way.
>> 
>> Gaelan
> 
> Sure, but I don't think that would fix the original problem, where the
> first column of text was either "z" for zombie or " " for not-zombie.
> Maybe I'll use "_" or "." for not-zombie.
> 
> -- 
> Falsifian

Could just indent the whole table by one space. 

Gaelan

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

On 2020-08-17 02:26, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Aug 16, 2020, at 5:45 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> On 2020-08-16 01:23, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion wrote:
>>>
> On Aug 15, 2020, at 6:05 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion 
>  wrote:

 
>
> Test before changing the setting:
>
> indented 0
> indented 1
>  indented 2
>   indented 3
>indented 4

 After:

 indented 0
 indented 1
 indented 2
  indented 3
   indented 4

 -- 
 Falsifian
>>>
>>> These are identical (and broken) on iOS Apple mail.
>>>
>>> Gaelan
>>
>> :-(
>>
>> Maybe I should just do what G. does: avoid starting any line with a space.
>>
>> As far as I can tell, iOS Apple mail must be broken if it rendered both
>> of those wrong, but on the other hand it's not that hard to avoid
>> leading spaces.
>>
>> Test with leading "|" at the start of each line:
>>
>> |indented 0
>> | indented 1
>> |  indented 2
>> |   indented 3
>> |indented 4
>>
>> I really hope at least that works.
>>
>> -- 
>> Falsifian
> 
> That renders correctly. 
> 
> I think it consistently strips one leading space, no? If so, as long as you 
> indent everything with at least one space, it’ll be 0-1 spaces, but lined up 
> either way.
> 
> Gaelan

Sure, but I don't think that would fix the original problem, where the
first column of text was either "z" for zombie or " " for not-zombie.
Maybe I'll use "_" or "." for not-zombie.

-- 
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion]

> On Aug 16, 2020, at 5:45 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 2020-08-16 01:23, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion wrote:
>> 
 On Aug 15, 2020, at 6:05 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 
 Test before changing the setting:
 
 indented 0
 indented 1
  indented 2
   indented 3
indented 4
>>> 
>>> After:
>>> 
>>> indented 0
>>> indented 1
>>> indented 2
>>>  indented 3
>>>   indented 4
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Falsifian
>> 
>> These are identical (and broken) on iOS Apple mail.
>> 
>> Gaelan
> 
> :-(
> 
> Maybe I should just do what G. does: avoid starting any line with a space.
> 
> As far as I can tell, iOS Apple mail must be broken if it rendered both
> of those wrong, but on the other hand it's not that hard to avoid
> leading spaces.
> 
> Test with leading "|" at the start of each line:
> 
> |indented 0
> | indented 1
> |  indented 2
> |   indented 3
> |indented 4
> 
> I really hope at least that works.
> 
> -- 
> Falsifian

That renders correctly. 

I think it consistently strips one leading space, no? If so, as long as you 
indent everything with at least one space, it’ll be 0-1 spaces, but lined up 
either way.

Gaelan

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

On 2020-08-16 01:23, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 15, 2020, at 6:05 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>>
>>> Test before changing the setting:
>>>
>>> indented 0
>>>  indented 1
>>>   indented 2
>>>indented 3
>>> indented 4
>>
>> After:
>>
>> indented 0
>> indented 1
>>  indented 2
>>   indented 3
>>indented 4
>>
>> -- 
>> Falsifian
> 
> These are identical (and broken) on iOS Apple mail. 
> 
> Gaelan

:-(

Maybe I should just do what G. does: avoid starting any line with a space.

As far as I can tell, iOS Apple mail must be broken if it rendered both
of those wrong, but on the other hand it's not that hard to avoid
leading spaces.

Test with leading "|" at the start of each line:

|indented 0
| indented 1
|  indented 2
|   indented 3
|indented 4

I really hope at least that works.

-- 
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion]

> On Aug 15, 2020, at 6:05 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> Test before changing the setting:
>> 
>> indented 0
>>  indented 1
>>   indented 2
>>indented 3
>> indented 4
> 
> After:
> 
> indented 0
> indented 1
>  indented 2
>   indented 3
>indented 4
> 
> -- 
> Falsifian

These are identical (and broken) on iOS Apple mail. 

Gaelan

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

On 2020-08-16 01:05, Falsifian via agora-discussion wrote:
>> Test before changing the setting:
>>
>> indented 0
>>  indented 1
>>   indented 2
>>    indented 3
>>     indented 4
> 
> After:
> 
> indented 0
>  indented 1
>   indented 2
>indented 3
> indented 4

As expected, these both look the same in Thunderbird, but only the
second (disabling format=flowed) looks right in the web archive at
mailman.agoranomic.org. To avoid confusion I'll try to send future
reports with format=flowed disabled.

-- 
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

> Test before changing the setting:
> 
> indented 0
>  indented 1
>   indented 2
>    indented 3
>     indented 4

After:

indented 0
 indented 1
  indented 2
   indented 3
indented 4

-- 
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

On 2020-08-10 00:33, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote:

On Mon, 2020-08-10 at 00:14 +, Falsifian via agora-discussion
wrote:

Wait, I didn't look very closely at the archive link I posted. It
looks like it has the inverse problem.

My email client: the names line up.

Gaelan's: zombie names are further to the right.

archive page: non-zombie names are further to the right.

I wonder what's going on.


An excerpt from the headers of the original email:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed


"format=flowed" means that the sender has requested the recipient to
change whitespace within quotes, in an attempt to prevent awkward
wrapping caused as a consequence of having several levels of nested
quotes. So people's email clients are busy messing with the whitespace
in order to try to make the result look good, from their point of view.

Anyway, the main important issue that's going on here is that in
addition to reflowing quotes, format=flowed text also allows for a
convention to mark text that shouldn't be reflowed: you add an
additional space at the start of the line. It seems that some of our
email clients are interpreting the leading spaces as conventional to
trigger the format=flowed requirements (thus deleting them), and some
of our email clients are interpreting the spaces as actual spaces and
showing them. This means that depending on the chain of email clients
the messages have gone through, the amount of leading space on the
messages varies (and this affects the "z" lines, because after some
transformations they have no room to move further to the left).

See  for more information.


format=flowed again! I think that was the culprit when Jason had just 
become Rulekeepor and had trouble with formatting.


It looks like on Thunderbird I can disable it by setting 
mailnews.send_plaintext_flowed to false. 
(http://kb.mozillazine.org/Plain_text_e-mail_%28Thunderbird%29)


Test before changing the setting:

indented 0
 indented 1
  indented 2
   indented 3
indented 4

--
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion]

> On Aug 9, 2020, at 6:03 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via 
> agora-discussion  wrote:
> 
> My inclination is to find this to be SHENANIGANS because it cannot be
> found that Gaelan definitely committed any specific crime.

I sure hope I didn't.

Falsifian is the potential perp here, though.

We've run into client-dependent eyebleeding before, with 天火狐: generally, 
Chinese/Japanese characters are supposed to be the width of two fixed-width 
characters, but some mail clients just rendered them as non-fixed-width 
characters. I'll go digging in the archives and see if any CFJs got called.

Gaelan

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion]

> On Aug 9, 2020, at 5:36 PM, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> I explicitly entered the nbsp's through Apple's Unicode picker, but copying 
> them into a hex viewer shows normal spaces, so I'm hoping Apple just does 
> some munging of the clipboard. But it's possible the spaces are all the same.

Update: something in the process did lose the nbsp's, so those tests are all 
the same. I'll try again.

Gaelan

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion]

> On Aug 9, 2020, at 5:26 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 8/9/2020 5:16 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion wrote:
>>> My email client: the names line up.
>> 
>> More info: I'm using Thunderbird, and when I "view source", the message 
>> appears like it does in the list archive at mailman.agoranomic.org (i.e. 
>> non-zombies are further to the right).
>> 
> 
> I've consistently noticed this issue with the emails I send, for a couple
> years at least.  When there's a leading space on a line, an extra space is
> inserted along the way (Thunderbird and gmail).  It's additive so it can
> creep to the right over time (e.g. if I use the sent version of the
> previous report to make the next one).  I gave up looking for the reason
> and now am either making everything flush left, or making sure not to mix
> flush with non-flush in a single table (and adjusting for the creep).
> 
> -G.
> 

Some experiments, sent with Apple Mail, explicitly set to plain text, via 
Fastmail's SMTP servers:

 Prefixed by one space

  Prefixed by two spaces

 Prefixed by one non-breaking space

  Prefixed by one non-breaking space, followed by one normal space

  Prefixed by two non-breaking spaces

I explicitly entered the nbsp's through Apple's Unicode picker, but copying 
them into a hex viewer shows normal spaces, so I'm hoping Apple just does some 
munging of the clipboard. But it's possible the spaces are all the same.

Gaelan

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[ais523 via agora-discussion]

On Mon, 2020-08-10 at 00:14 +, Falsifian via agora-discussion
wrote:
> Wait, I didn't look very closely at the archive link I posted. It
> looks like it has the inverse problem.
> 
> My email client: the names line up.
> 
> Gaelan's: zombie names are further to the right.
> 
> archive page: non-zombie names are further to the right.
> 
> I wonder what's going on.

An excerpt from the headers of the original email:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

"format=flowed" means that the sender has requested the recipient to
change whitespace within quotes, in an attempt to prevent awkward
wrapping caused as a consequence of having several levels of nested
quotes. So people's email clients are busy messing with the whitespace
in order to try to make the result look good, from their point of view.

Anyway, the main important issue that's going on here is that in
addition to reflowing quotes, format=flowed text also allows for a
convention to mark text that shouldn't be reflowed: you add an
additional space at the start of the line. It seems that some of our
email clients are interpreting the leading spaces as conventional to
trigger the format=flowed requirements (thus deleting them), and some
of our email clients are interpreting the spaces as actual spaces and
showing them. This means that depending on the chain of email clients
the messages have gone through, the amount of leading space on the
messages varies (and this affects the "z" lines, because after some
transformations they have no room to move further to the left).

See  for more information.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 8/9/2020 5:16 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion wrote:
>> My email client: the names line up.
> 
> More info: I'm using Thunderbird, and when I "view source", the message 
> appears like it does in the list archive at mailman.agoranomic.org (i.e. 
> non-zombies are further to the right).
> 

I've consistently noticed this issue with the emails I send, for a couple
years at least.  When there's a leading space on a line, an extra space is
inserted along the way (Thunderbird and gmail).  It's additive so it can
creep to the right over time (e.g. if I use the sent version of the
previous report to make the next one).  I gave up looking for the reason
and now am either making everything flush left, or making sure not to mix
flush with non-flush in a single table (and adjusting for the creep).

-G.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

My email client: the names line up.


More info: I'm using Thunderbird, and when I "view source", the message 
appears like it does in the list archive at mailman.agoranomic.org (i.e. 
non-zombies are further to the right).


--
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

On 2020-08-10 00:03, Falsifian via agora-discussion wrote:

On 2020-08-09 23:45, shelvacu via agora-discussion wrote:

It lines up fine when I look at it here. Probably a quirk of email.


Same here and at 
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2020-August/014081.html 


Wait, I didn't look very closely at the archive link I posted. It looks 
like it has the inverse problem.


My email client: the names line up.

Gaelan's: zombie names are further to the right.

archive page: non-zombie names are further to the right.

I wonder what's going on.

--
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Falsifian via agora-discussion]

On 2020-08-09 23:45, shelvacu via agora-discussion wrote:

It lines up fine when I look at it here. Probably a quirk of email.


Same here and at 
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2020-August/014081.html


Galan, I also notice that the text you pasted includes some extra URLs, 
like "" after omd's email address, which aren't in 
the original. I'm guessing there's some extra processing step somewhere 
in your email setup.




On 8/9/20 11:53 AM, Gaelan Steele via agora-business wrote:



On Aug 9, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Falsifian via agora-official 
 wrote:

  Player Contact Registered
  -- --- --
  omdcomexk at gmail.com  [0]
 03 Feb 11
  Aris   thoughtsoflifeandlight17 at gmail.com   
 13 Sep 16
  Gaelan gbs at canishe.com    
   15 May 17
  G. kerim at uw.edu  
25 Aug 17
  Cuddlebeam cuddlebeam at gmail.com 
 25 Aug 17
  Trigon reuben.staley at gmail.com  
 24 Sep 17
  Murphy emurphy42 at zoho.com    
17 Dec 17
  ATMunn iamingodsarmy at gmail.com  
 11 Mar 18
  Falsifian  agora at falsifian.org  
 13 Feb 19
  Jason  jason.e.cobb at gmail.com   
 02 Jun 19
  nixnixnull+agora at protonmail.com  
[1] 18 Oct 19
  P.S.S. [2] p.scribonius.scholasticus at gmail.com  
 01 Mar 20
  grok   grokagora at gmail.com  
 20 May 20
  Tyler  tylermeady at gmail.com 
 06 Jun 20
  Zyborg zyborgmao at gmail.com  
 21 Jun 20
  R. Lee edwardostrange at gmail.com 
 30-Jun-20
  Fred   zarathustraincandenza at gmail.com  
 03-Jul-20
  Shelvacu [3]   agora at shelvacu.com    
08-Aug-20
z twgme at timon.red 24 May 18
z D. Margaux [4] dmargaux000 at gmail.com    
 25 Aug 18
z Baron von Vaderham davidseeber at outlook.com    
   04 Feb 19
z sukil  sukiletxe+agora at gmail.com    
 12 Feb 20
z Telnaior   JDGA at iinet.net.au 
21 Mar 20

I point my finger at Falsifian for Making My Eyes Bleed. (The zombies' columns 
are pushed one column right by the z indicators; the non-zombie players need a 
space there to make everything line up.)

Gaelan



--
Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Agoran Directory

[Jason Cobb]

Yeah, it was that heading.

Jason Cobb

On 6/18/19 2:01 AM, James Cook wrote:

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 at 05:56, Jason Cobb  wrote:

I point my finger at Falsifian for the Crime of Making My Eyes Bleed.

[Yes this is silly, but the rule (Rule 2143) is silly.]

Jason Cobb

Sorry about that! Do you mean the "Due to Flip to Agora" heading that
spills over to the next line, or are there other problems?

Testing how gmail wraps lines in plain text emails:

72 characterseol
73 characters eol
74 characters  eol
75 characters   eol
76 characterseol
77 characters eol
78 characters  eol
79 characters   eol
80 characterseol
81 characters
eol
82 characters
 eol
83 characters
  eol