RE: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60
My two cents... Its rare a controlled carrier rig sounds good. For myself, I don't want to run something that sounds like crap, no mater how vintage or efficient it is into an amplifier. I also seem to have given up on low power, and don't want any rigs that run 100 watts or less, except as exciters for bigger RF decks. A lot of this stuff is fun to play with, but as a rig you want to use on the air, they don't usually cut it. In my case, the small stuff just sat around the shack or got used once every 6 months for 10 minutes till I switched to the bigger rigs. There are guys who love using the old small rigs though, running a DX40 or DX60 with an outboard VFO and/or modulator, into an amp, and a crappy receiver with an outboard IF and rf amp, and outboard audio, etc. I suppose it's a challenge they like... Something for everyone on AM! Brett N2DTS -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Schmidling Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 12:42 PM To: Discussion of AM Radio in the Amateur Service Subject: Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60 John Coleman ARS WA5BXO wrote: As for the T60, I'm not saying don't do it. You will want to make your on observations for the experience. But, the TS430, when operated properly on AM, will get you better signal and audio reports and keep your band neighbors friendly. Thanks for the comments. My thoughts on an advantage of the T60 is that, as it has controlled/suppressed carrier, the idle power is a lot less than the TS430. As a consequence, I could drive a linear (SB200) a bit harder and get more power out of it than when using the 430. When running the 430 at about 15 watts, and a plate current of 150 ma on the amp, the plates get redder than I like. Seems like I should be able to increase the input significantly with the T60 before the plates got to the same temp. Is this correct reasoning? I think I will just get some xtals for the T60 as I am getting a Ranger soon. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60
Jack, You bring up a good point. I don't know if the TS-430 has an auxiliary audio input or not; usually for a phone patch. If it does, then do your audio remotely with whatever Mic you want, compressor, equalizer, etc. and pipe it into the remote audio jack. Then tee off that input to drive the 'X' axis of your scope. Keep in mind that this approach will only work if there is minimal phase shift over the audio range (100-4000hz) between the remote input and the balanced modulator. If the TS-430 does not have a remote audio input, then surgery is required to tap into the audio driving the balanced modulator. Once done you can inject high level audio from an external source as well as sample the audio for the scope. Jim JKO - Original Message From: Jack Schmidling [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jim Candela [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of AM Radio in the Amateur Service amradio@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 11:03:06 PM Subject: Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60 Jim Candela wrote: I am going to state here as my opinion that with linear AM you should monitor the RF output with a scope, and use the Trapezoid pattern when optimizing the linear controls, drive level, and audio level. I have one set up but can't figure out a convenient way to get at an audio sig for the x axis from the TS430. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
RE: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60
For using the Kenwood TS430 as a VFO to go into the Knight T60, yes you can use the AM mode with audio gain turned down on the TS430 and put a dummy load on the TS430. I don't remember what voltage is required at the T60 input. My guess would be 5 - 10 volts PTP but it has been to long ago. If the TS 430 is attached to dummy load and the input to the T60 then you will need about 1/4 watt on the dummy load to get the 10 volts PTP at the T60 input. A 2 watt 50 Ohm resistor across the input of the T60 should serve as the dummy load fine. The Transverter output with a step up XFMR or tuned network is a better idea. However, the best idea is to use the AM mode of the TS830 at about 20 to 25 watts carrier output to the antenna and forget the T60, except for a nostalgic piece. I used a T60 as a novice and as a general class back in 1962 - 1964. It was great at the time. The controlled carrier modulation was barely acceptable so I built the external modulator using a pair of 807s. That made a tremendous difference.The output of the T60 in CW mode is only about 35 - 40 watts MAX and in AM mode is about or less than 10 watts carrier with no modulation and full controlled carrier type modulation the PEP = 35 - 40 watts. If you build and use an external plate modulator for the T60 and run the T60 at full load in CW mode modulating it to 100% with the external modulator the BEST output you can obtain will be a 35 to 40 watt carrier with PEP = 160 Watts. The TS430 will only be about 2 DB below that when the carrier level is set at 25 Watt carrier output you will get 100 Watt PEP output when modulated. The TS430 has excellent AM with very nice modulation characteristics. The TS430 will be narrower when compared to the T60 for 3 KHz modulation because of its great linearity. The ALC will provide a limit for over driving the RF stages. Even if you reduce the carrier to 10 Watts and produce 100 watts PEP with modulation, it will be narrow because it will produce DSB energy without respect to the carrier (balance modulator operation) therefore you will not see clipping of the carrier as you might with full high level modulation. As for the T60, I'm not saying don't do it. You will want to make your on observations for the experience. But, the TS430, when operated properly on AM, will get you better signal and audio reports and keep your band neighbors friendly. John, WA5BXO __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60
John Coleman ARS WA5BXO wrote: As for the T60, I'm not saying don't do it. You will want to make your on observations for the experience. But, the TS430, when operated properly on AM, will get you better signal and audio reports and keep your band neighbors friendly. Thanks for the comments. My thoughts on an advantage of the T60 is that, as it has controlled/suppressed carrier, the idle power is a lot less than the TS430. As a consequence, I could drive a linear (SB200) a bit harder and get more power out of it than when using the 430. When running the 430 at about 15 watts, and a plate current of 150 ma on the amp, the plates get redder than I like. Seems like I should be able to increase the input significantly with the T60 before the plates got to the same temp. Is this correct reasoning? I think I will just get some xtals for the T60 as I am getting a Ranger soon. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60
Hey Jack: From years back when I worked around broadcast stations I always wondered about the plates of the modulator and finals being so red that I commented to an engineer. He just laughed and said not to worry about cherry red. It is when they get white you should worry. 73 Jim W5JO When running the 430 at about 15 watts, and a plate current of 150 ma on the amp, the plates get redder than I like. Seems like I should be able to increase the input significantly with the T60 before the plates got to the same temp. Is this correct reasoning? I think I will just get some xtals for the T60 as I am getting a Ranger soon. js __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60
Hello Jack, Controlled carrier has tradeoffs. You are trading reduced linearity and tricker audio adjustment for greater PEP. Not that it can't be done and sound reasonably good. Another point is that tubes with zirconium or titanium on the plate NEED to get red to getter properly. I'd be more concerned about the power supply than the red plates. But that's just SSB amps in general. I don't have any experience with the SB200. It would probably be easier and more productive to just reduce the carrier power on the 430 until you're happy with the amp. I doubt anyone on the other end would notice 20 or 50 watts difference and your audio would probably sound cleaner too. But the main thing is to have fun and enjoy your radios. If you want to put the T60 on the air, by all means drive it with a little carrier from the 430 until you get your crystals. You won't have to worry about being on frequency. :) 73' KA5MIR On Sunday 15 October 2006 11:42, Jack Schmidling wrote: My thoughts on an advantage of the T60 is that, as it has controlled/suppressed carrier, the idle power is a lot less than the TS430. As a consequence, I could drive a linear (SB200) a bit harder and get more power out of it than when using the 430. When running the 430 at about 15 watts, and a plate current of 150 ma on the amp, the plates get redder than I like. Seems like I should be able to increase the input significantly with the T60 before the plates got to the same temp. Is this correct reasoning? I think I will just get some xtals for the T60 as I am getting a Ranger soon. js __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
RE: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60
Yes, by all means give it a whirl. That's how discoveries are made. Funny, that you should mention the SB200 in that way. BJ, WB5PKD, and I are using the SB200 to drive the grids of the 250THs. We drive the SB200 with a modified TS820. The TS 820 put about 10 watts into the SB200 and the SB200 puts about 60 watts into the push pull grids of the 250Ths. We have checked the SB200 out as an AM linear and found it to be equivalent to a pair of 6146s plate modulated, like a DX100 or Apache but with better audio using the TS830 or the modified TS820. We modified the TS820 so that with the flip of a switch it would bypass the SSB filter and allow carrier injection while in the LSB mode position. This makes it a great AM rig for about 15-20 watts carrier. As you found out the plates on the finals of the SB200 or red but they are a little red at idle current with no carrier. We tried to put extra bias on the SB200 to bring the plate current to cut off and a little past cutoff. Then applying more drive to get the carrier out that we wanted but with a little more efficiency. It helped some but then required more drive from the TS820 causing it to heat up a little more. I guess there is no substitute for bigger tubes. HIHI so we just run it a little lower and limit the Xmit time. As for control carrier, I would rather run SSB. John, WA5BXO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of KA5MIR Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 1:35 PM To: amradio@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60 Hello Jack, Controlled carrier has tradeoffs. You are trading reduced linearity and tricker audio adjustment for greater PEP. Not that it can't be done and sound reasonably good. Another point is that tubes with zirconium or titanium on the plate NEED to get red to getter properly. I'd be more concerned about the power supply than the red plates. But that's just SSB amps in general. I don't have any experience with the SB200. It would probably be easier and more productive to just reduce the carrier power on the 430 until you're happy with the amp. I doubt anyone on the other end would notice 20 or 50 watts difference and your audio would probably sound cleaner too. But the main thing is to have fun and enjoy your radios. If you want to put the T60 on the air, by all means drive it with a little carrier from the 430 until you get your crystals. You won't have to worry about being on frequency. :) 73' KA5MIR On Sunday 15 October 2006 11:42, Jack Schmidling wrote: My thoughts on an advantage of the T60 is that, as it has controlled/suppressed carrier, the idle power is a lot less than the TS430. As a consequence, I could drive a linear (SB200) a bit harder and get more power out of it than when using the 430. When running the 430 at about 15 watts, and a plate current of 150 ma on the amp, the plates get redder than I like. Seems like I should be able to increase the input significantly with the T60 before the plates got to the same temp. Is this correct reasoning? I think I will just get some xtals for the T60 as I am getting a Ranger soon. js __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO on a KNIGHT T60
Jack, Others have commented on their thoughts concerning carrier control. One suggestion I have not heard however is to reduce the amount of carrier control to no more than 3 db. This might be the ticket to gaining linear amp efficiency without the nagging extreme carrier pump common to stock carrier controlled rigs. When using linear amplification on AM, it is always nice to tune for maximum linear output or to a level that is 4-5 times the exciter carrier maximum. If your exciter cannot do that then you could compensate by modulating the driver to 100 - 120% positive as you set the linear controls. In your case this would be easier with the TS-430 since it will surely drive a SB-220 to the maximum (carrier only) whereas the T60 will need to be modulated to get there. Either way will work, but you need a scope to look at the peaks if you are pulsing, or modulating the drive. A peak responding watt meter might be useful as well. I am hearing more an more AM signals using linear amplifiers, and about 2 out of 3 are not set-up correct, and they are being overdriven, or maybe the linear output loading is set for a lower PEP power impedance match. I am going to state here as my opinion that with linear AM you should monitor the RF output with a scope, and use the Trapezoid pattern when optimizing the linear controls, drive level, and audio level. The envelope pattern is nice too, but it is very hard to interpret RF non-linearity whereas it stands out big time with the Trapezoid. I am set up to do both, and i switch back and forth regularly. If I have not bored you thus far, I have been corresponding with another ham about using his TS-430 with a SB-200. I am pasting the conversation below as it was written: BTW, my math may be a little off, so be kind! :-) Jim WD5JKO - Original Message From: Jack Schmidling [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:08:26 PM Subject: [eamarg] Intro Not sure how to connect this with Europe but there seems to be more AM activity on the internet than in the ether. Been a ham since 1955, dropped out in the 60's, dropped back in, in the 80's with a rice box, out again till a few weeks ago. AM intrigues me (I understand it) and I found a button on my TS430 that says AM. I have been playing with the button for a few days and think I am smitten. I am looking for a real AM rig but in the meantime, I will see what I can do with this thing and the SB200. Have had a few qso's but a lot more non responses to trying to break in on qso's. What's even worse, is no response from very loud CQ's. That's pretty depressing. I answered a CQ last night 3 times and gave up to find something else to do. Got lots of questions but for openers There seems to be an area around 3885 where AMers hang out but I am not clear on the regs regarding where AM is allowed. Could someone clear this up? Are there any AM nets on 75? Jack NR9Q Marengo, IL - Original Message From: Jack Schmidling [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:45:18 PM Subject: Re: [eamarg] Re: Intro Thanks for the info. Now I have a more serious question. I am trying to set up my TS430 and SB200 with a scope but the whole procedure has me a bit befuddled. My vintage ARRL handbook describes the process and I understand what is going on but I do not see how one quantifies anything as it all seems to depend on audio level. I understand the trapezoid but am clueless how one uses this when speaking into a mike. I hooked an audio generator to a headphone and hold the mike up to it and can make a textbook picture of 100% mod or anything I want just by diddling with the generator output or the mike input. If I hook the generator also to the Horiz and can get any shape trapezoid I want again by diddling. I just do not understand how I can do anything in the way of adjusting the rig in the real world under normal operating condx. What am I missing? js From: Jim Candela [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 8:22:11 AM Subject: Re: [eamarg] Re: Intro Jack, When using a transceiver on AM, it kind of goes like this: Tune for maximum output, then back off to about to 20-25% power for AM, and advance audio till you see the power kick up slightly on audio peaks. With a scope you usually look at the modulated envelope using sampled RF for the vertical input, and time sweep on the horizontal of somewhere between 1-2 ms / division. You can try to trigger on voice peaks to get a syllable on the display when you say 'HELLO'. Back off audio if the negative peaks brighten up in the middle at zero volts, or if the ALC is kicking in. Most 100 watt rigs are good for 20-25 watts AM this way. At 20watts there is more room for positive modulation peaks beyond 100% (a good thing). The male voice is likely asymmetrical, and therefore on AM it is important to have the side
Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO
The transverter socket has nothing to do with the output relay switching. There is another socket for external switching (such as a linear) but be careful if you have 120 VAC relays, they should be keyed with another relay in between the two connections. On second thought, maybe the attenuator is a better idea, that way you dont have to mess with the transverter socket. Wish I was there to help, it would be easier. Maybe you can find someone locally with tube experience. 73 DE Charlie, K0NG __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
[AMRadio] TS430 as VFO
Is there any reason why one could/should not use a rice box as a vfo on a simple rig like the Knight T60 or any other for that matter. Assuming we get the output down to an appropriate level, it would seem like a neat way doing things. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO
Hello Jack: My TS-430 works OK as a VFO. You should make a 5 to 10 Watt attenuator to insure that the output is terminated correctly. A better way is to use the Transverter jack (socket) on the back of the 430. The output level is only 50 mW and is 50 Ohms. The transverter output may not drive your transmitter without using say a 1:9 autotransformer or L network between the transverter out and the Tx input. Older tube rigs have Hi Z crystal input around 47 K or so and you need to match that somehow. At least with the attenuator method you will have no trouble getting the required 5-7 V RMS for the transmitter input. Good luck and be sure you are in CW mode (no Mics!!) 73, Charlie, K0NG __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
RE: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO
You can also use one on a broadcast transmitter Brad KB7FQR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Schmidling Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 4:43 PM To: Discussion of AM Radio in the Amateur Service Subject: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO Is there any reason why one could/should not use a rice box as a vfo on a simple rig like the Knight T60 or any other for that matter. Assuming we get the output down to an appropriate level, it would seem like a neat way doing things. __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
Re: [AMRadio] TS430 as VFO
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A better way is to use the Transverter jack (socket) on the back of the 430. Guess I had better get out the manual. Have no clue what a transverter is. Good luck and be sure you are in CW mode (no Mics!!) How bout AM with the audio turned all the way down? CW requires a key closure. I am getting brain cramps trying to sort out the antenna switching. Somehow the output has to go to the VFO input and the ant has to got to the RF connector or the transmitter out put. Maybe the transverter output solves this problem? I am picking up a Knight T60 on Monday and I don't have any xtals and I thought this might be an easy way around. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com __ AMRadio mailing list List Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/amradio Partner Website: http://www.amfone.net Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html Post: mailto:AMRadio@mailman.qth.net
