[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-15 Thread Bob McGwier
Did I ever tell you about the time I cranked 130w on 435 in Providence, 
R.I. and I received an admonishing phone call from OTIS, AFB asking me 
if I was on the air, reminding me of the limitations and my obligation 
to warn them?  I hope I was not the cause of a false alarm, but I don't 
know.  I had never spoken to them and didn't even know about the 
exclusion zones.  This was ancient days, right after AO-10 was 
launched.  I don't know the state of the rules or enforcement today but 
that caused some consternation let me tell you.  Fred at least has the 
obligation to ask what the rules are currently.

Bob
N4HY


Ben Jackson wrote:
 Sanford, Fred wrote:
   
 I hope that AMSAT NA does not use an 70cm uplink, because that band
 is not available for transmitting in all areas of the US.  I live
 near Cape Cod, MA and 70cm is not available for transmitting because
 of PAVE PAWS.
 

 Hi Fred:

 I don't think PAVE PAWS prohibits transmission, it only affected
 repeater operation. At least I haven't heard anything regarding that,
 and I was fairly active on 70cm until last Monday when W1WNS/R was PAVE
 PAWSed.

   ~Ben


   


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 take the first step., MLK.
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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-15 Thread W4ART Arthur Feller
Specific information is available on line.  Here's the text.

US7 In the band 420–450 MHz and within the following areas, the peak  
envelope power output of a transmitter employed in the amateur service  
shall not exceed 50 watts, unless expressly authorized by the FCC  
after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District  
Director of the applicable field office and the military area  
frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. For areas (e)  
through (g), the appropriate military coordinator is located at  
Peterson AFB, CO.

(a) Arizona, Florida, and New Mexico.

(b) Those portions of California and Nevada that are south of latitude  
37°10′ N.

(c) That portion of Texas that is west of longitude 104° W.

(d) Within 322 km (200 miles) of Eglin AFB, FL (30°30′ N, 86°30′  
W); Patrick AFB, FL (28°21′ N, 80°43′ W); and the Pacific Missile  
Test Center, Point Mugu, CA (34°09′ N, 119°11′ W).

(e) Within 240 km (150 miles) of Beale AFB, CA (39°08′ N, 121°26′  
W).

(f) Within 200 km (124 miles) of Goodfellow AFB, TX (31°25′ N,  
100°24′ W) and Robins AFB, GA (32°38′ N, 83°35′ W).

(g) Within 160 km (100 miles) of Clear, AK (64°17′ N, 149°10′ W);  
Concrete, ND (48°43′ N, 97°54′ W); and Otis AFB, MA (41°45′ N,  
70°32′ W).


So, 435-438 MHz is available with limited output power.  No limit on  
antenna again, that I see.

I hope this helps.

73, art.
W4ART  Arlington VA


On 15-Oct-2009, at 9:56 AM, Bob McGwier wrote:

 Did I ever tell you about the time I cranked 130w on 435 in  
 Providence,
 R.I. and I received an admonishing phone call from OTIS, AFB asking me
 if I was on the air, reminding me of the limitations and my obligation
 to warn them?  I hope I was not the cause of a false alarm, but I  
 don't
 know.  I had never spoken to them and didn't even know about the
 exclusion zones.  This was ancient days, right after AO-10 was
 launched.  I don't know the state of the rules or enforcement today  
 but
 that caused some consternation let me tell you.  Fred at least has the
 obligation to ask what the rules are currently.

 Bob
 N4HY


 Ben Jackson wrote:
 Sanford, Fred wrote:

 I hope that AMSAT NA does not use an 70cm uplink, because that band
 is not available for transmitting in all areas of the US.  I live
 near Cape Cod, MA and 70cm is not available for transmitting because
 of PAVE PAWS.


 Hi Fred:

 I don't think PAVE PAWS prohibits transmission, it only affected
 repeater operation. At least I haven't heard anything regarding that,
 and I was fairly active on 70cm until last Monday when W1WNS/R was  
 PAVE
 PAWSed.

  ~Ben





 -- 
 (Co)Author: DttSP, Quiktrak, PowerSDR, GnuRadio
 Member: ARRL, AMSAT, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats,
 NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC.
 You don't need to see the whole staircase, just
 take the first step., MLK.
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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-15 Thread Steve Meuse
Bob McGwier expunged (rwmcgw...@gmail.com):

 Did I ever tell you about the time I cranked 130w on 435 in Providence, 
 R.I. and I received an admonishing phone call from OTIS, AFB asking me 
 if I was on the air, reminding me of the limitations and my obligation 
 to warn them?  I hope I was not the cause of a false alarm, but I don't 
 know.  I had never spoken to them and didn't even know about the 
 exclusion zones.  This was ancient days, right after AO-10 was 
 launched.  I don't know the state of the rules or enforcement today but 
 that caused some consternation let me tell you.  Fred at least has the 
 obligation to ask what the rules are currently.


From Part 97: 
(http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/d-305.html#313) 

(f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the 
UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in footnote US7 to §2.106 of the FCC 
Rules, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a 
case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field 
facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military 
base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 
435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW 
equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise 
required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power 
(-3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must 
always be greater than 10°. 

US7 §2.106  (http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/maps/us7/)

(e) In the State of Massachusetts within a 160-kilometer (100 mile) radius 
around locations at Otis Air Force Base, Massachusetts (latitude 41°45' North, 
longitude 70°32' West);


Technically, if you were in R.I. you were not restricted because the regs 
specifically state In the State of Massachusetts. Also, you were exepemt most 
likely from the earth station exemption, depending on your ERP and if you are 
pointed up :)


-Steve

N1JFU -  http://n1jfu.blogspot.com - sme...@twitter

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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-15 Thread Bob McGwier
That was the source of my confusion as well.  My interpretation would be 
the rule applies only to OTIS AFB (in this case) and it doesn' exist so 
it cannot apply to a nonexistent entity.

Bob




Steve Meuse wrote:
 Steve Meuse expunged (sme...@mara.org):

   
 (e) In the State of Massachusetts within a 160-kilometer (100 mile) radius 
 around locations at Otis Air Force Base, Massachusetts (latitude 41°45' 
 North, longitude 70°32' West);

 

 Also, I don't know if this has any legal basis, but technically there is no 
 such thing as Otis Air Force Base. Pave Paws is location on Cape Cod Air 
 Force Station, which is on the Massachusetts Military Reservation. There is 
 (recently closed) an Otis Massachusetts Air National Guard Base, but OTIS AFB 
 ceased to exist back in the 60's. 


 -Steve

 N1JFU -  http://n1jfu.blogspot.com - sme...@twitter


   


-- 
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Member: ARRL, AMSAT, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats,
NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC.
You don't need to see the whole staircase, just
 take the first step., MLK.
Twitter:rwmcgwier
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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-15 Thread Steve Meuse
Steve Meuse expunged (sme...@mara.org):

 (e) In the State of Massachusetts within a 160-kilometer (100 mile) radius 
 around locations at Otis Air Force Base, Massachusetts (latitude 41°45' 
 North, longitude 70°32' West);
 

Also, I don't know if this has any legal basis, but technically there is no 
such thing as Otis Air Force Base. Pave Paws is location on Cape Cod Air 
Force Station, which is on the Massachusetts Military Reservation. There is 
(recently closed) an Otis Massachusetts Air National Guard Base, but OTIS AFB 
ceased to exist back in the 60's. 


-Steve

N1JFU -  http://n1jfu.blogspot.com - sme...@twitter

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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-15 Thread Ben Jackson

On 10/15/2009, Bob McGwier rwmcgw...@gmail.com wrote:
 Steve Meuse expunged (sme...@mara.org):

   
 (e) In the State of Massachusetts within a 160-kilometer (100 mile) radius 
 around locations at Otis Air Force Base, Massachusetts (latitude 41°45' 
 North, longitude 70°32' West);

That was the source of my confusion as well.  My interpretation would be 
the rule applies only to OTIS AFB (in this case) and it doesn' exist so 
it cannot apply to a nonexistent entity.

Technically the State of Massachusetts doesn't exist either. We're a
Commonwealth. ;)

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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-15 Thread GEORGE ABBOTT
The Air Guard has a B1B and advanced fighter jets deployed there.Otis had 
numerous strategic bombers deployed at Otis AFB in the 50's during the Cold 
War.
- Original Message - 
From: Bob McGwier rwmcgw...@gmail.com
To: Steve Meuse sme...@mara.org
Cc: 'Amsat BB' amsat-bb@amsat.org
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:15 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web


That was the source of my confusion as well.  My interpretation would be
the rule applies only to OTIS AFB (in this case) and it doesn' exist so
it cannot apply to a nonexistent entity.

Bob




Steve Meuse wrote:
 Steve Meuse expunged (sme...@mara.org):


 (e) In the State of Massachusetts within a 160-kilometer (100 mile) 
 radius around locations at Otis Air Force Base, Massachusetts (latitude 
 41°45' North, longitude 70°32' West);



 Also, I don't know if this has any legal basis, but technically there is 
 no such thing as Otis Air Force Base. Pave Paws is location on Cape Cod 
 Air Force Station, which is on the Massachusetts Military Reservation. 
 There is (recently closed) an Otis Massachusetts Air National Guard Base, 
 but OTIS AFB ceased to exist back in the 60's.


 -Steve

 N1JFU -  http://n1jfu.blogspot.com - sme...@twitter





-- 
(Co)Author: DttSP, Quiktrak, PowerSDR, GnuRadio
Member: ARRL, AMSAT, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats,
NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC.
You don't need to see the whole staircase, just
 take the first step., MLK.
Twitter:rwmcgwier
Active: Facebook,Myspace,LinkedIn


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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread Rocky Jones

it will be entertaining to see how this progresses...most of the bleep sats die 
quickly...to much satellite for to little space...but lets see how suitsat 2 
turns out

I agree we need more Oscar 7's...

Robert WB5MZO
  
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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread Sanford, Fred
I hope that AMSAT NA does not use an 70cm uplink, because that band is not 
available for transmitting in all areas of the US.  I live near Cape Cod, MA 
and 70cm is not available for transmitting because of PAVE PAWS.

Fred - KA1CQD

-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf 
Of Rocky Jones
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 11:58 AM
To: n...@bellsouth.net; luclebla...@videotron.ca; Amsat BB
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web


http://www.qsl.net/pe1rah/HAMSAT.htm

I am just trying to figure out why AMSAT NA is not taking advantage of work 
already done.

Robert WB5MZO
  
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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread Rocky Jones

Fred.  lovely radar but it hoses some people!  Robert WB5MZO

 From: fred.sanf...@ips.invensys.com
 To: orbit...@hotmail.com; n...@bellsouth.net; luclebla...@videotron.ca; 
 amsat-bb@amsat.org
 Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:17:47 -0400
 Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web
 
 I hope that AMSAT NA does not use an 70cm uplink, because that band is not 
 available for transmitting in all areas of the US.  I live near Cape Cod, MA 
 and 70cm is not available for transmitting because of PAVE PAWS.
 
 Fred - KA1CQD
 
 -Original Message-
 From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On 
 Behalf Of Rocky Jones
 Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 11:58 AM
 To: n...@bellsouth.net; luclebla...@videotron.ca; Amsat BB
 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web
 
 
 http://www.qsl.net/pe1rah/HAMSAT.htm
 
 I am just trying to figure out why AMSAT NA is not taking advantage of work 
 already done.
 
 Robert WB5MZO
 
 _
 Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
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 this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any 
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 a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys plc, which is a company 
 registered in England and Wales with its registered office at Portland House, 
 Bressenden Place, London, SW1E 5BF (Registered number 166023). For a list of 
 European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please go to 
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 You may contact Invensys plc on +44 (0)20 7821 3848 or e-mail 
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 subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its 
 subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and 
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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread Mark VandeWettering
 The funding solution will go by an international funding campaign and by a 
 fixed minimal contribution per amateur who want's to have an
 HEO. I am member of a local marina and each new member should pay a one time 
 Dredging Fee of 250$. The marina is open here from May 15 to
 October 4 about 5 months. I can used a satellite 12 months am i willing to 
 pay 250$ a year YES and could be more if a sound international
 structure with well defined planning and objectives can demonstrate a serious 
 will towards the next HEO.

Well, it's nice that you have an amount in mind for how much you would
pay.  Frankly, I'd probably be willing to spend 4x as that much.  It
probably would take that level of funding to get purchase a launch.
As far as I know, the terms of the bid that Arianspace quoted AMSAT-DL
were never released, but we get hints of the it in presentations like:

http://mstl.atl.calpoly.edu/~bklofas/Presentations/AMSATUK2009/3b_Gulzow-P3E.pdf

which suggests that 20,000 euros per kilogram isn't absurd, and they'd
be lucky to get a launch for half that price.   This would yield a
price for P3E of only (!) 1.7 million euros, or 2.5 million dollars
U.S.   AMSAT-DL didn't think such a launch was feasible, and claims
that the costs were (in ttheir words) one order of magnitude too
expensive.As they say, bitter reality of their funding efforts
is that the attractiveness of amateur radio has dropped significantly,
and that funding a P3 satellite from amateur resources alone seems
not to work now and probably never again?.   In light of this,
AMSAT-DL has pursued tax money from their covernment to pursue a 20M
euro effort to fund launches for P5A and P3E.   I wish them luck, but
in the current economic environment, as well as past experience, I
think there is some reason for skepticism, or at least, no expectation
for a quick resolution to this issue.

 There is already a lot of dedicated peoples around the amateurs radio 
 satellite business who are only making their own small things in
 their small backyard. Why not regrouping their energies and money towards 
 ONLY ONE SINGLE big project? In the amateur satellite world we
 called that a HEO satellite as AO-40  and as AO-07 AO-10 AO-13 generation who 
 where the first steps towards AO-40.

I think the reason against such a strategy is quite simple, and it is
absolutely personified in AO-40.  Yes, AO-40 was a remarkable,
amazing, revolutionary amateur satellite.   But radio amateurs put all
their eggs in one basket, and that basket had a hole in it, and all
the eggs tumbled out, and now we are left not only with no eggs, but
with an environment where people might (reasonably in fact) ask why
they should put all their eggs in one basket again, particularly
because these baskets have rocket motors filled with hydrazine and
nitrogen tetroxide inside.  Even if we could fund an HEO launch, I
still think it is a matter of debate as to whether launching these
kinds of expensive, heavy satellites is a project which provides the
greatest utility toward the amateur service.

 Just to be clear my opinion is not against the collective effort and people 
 works but against some of the objectives they carry. Volunteers
 motivation should be the best interest of all not the few.

I find this statement a bit disingenous.  The simple truth is that
satellites in HEO are usable by fewer, not more hams.  If we really
were trying to provide a satellite which benefitted most hams, it
seems pursuing a strategy which minimizes their personal investment in
ground stations is entirely reasonable.  Despite your assertion that
AO-51 is a mistake, I would counter that it's been enormously
successful: a long-lived versatile satellite that provides interesting
opportunities for people not just on VU but on L and S band.

Bruce (I think it was Bruce) suggested that the cost ratio between a
cubesat launch and an heo launch was around 125/1.   To compare apples
to apples, we'd have to compare the benefits of having 125 cubesats
(perhaps carrying full V/U transponders like the ones designed by
PE1RAH) versus one satellite in HEO.

AMSAT's strategy is I think an entirely reasonable strategy.
Cubesats are a reality: they will continue to be launched.   As yet,
they have not been of enormous utility to radio amateurs because they
carry only the kind of radio payloads that they need to support their
scientific objectives.   But miniaturization has resulted in the
possibility for a solar cell carrying cubesat to carry a full V/U
transponder.   The trick is getting these university and scientific
projects to carry them for us into space, so we can make use of them
when their scientific missions are over.   We can do that by providing
them with a tested radio module that integrates the functions they use
as a standardized item.  This allows them to concentrate on their
mission and not have to design custom radio modules for their cubesat.
 This allows them to get to orbit cheaper and quicker.   

[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread John B. Stephensen
AMSAT has a U/V linear transponder design in ARISSsat and according to the 
last newsletter no foreign national has signed the agreement that ITAR 
requires.

73,

John
KD6OZH

- Original Message - 
From: Rocky Jones orbit...@hotmail.com
To: n...@bellsouth.net; luclebla...@videotron.ca; Amsat BB 
amsat-bb@amsat.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 15:58 UTC
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web



http://www.qsl.net/pe1rah/HAMSAT.htm

I am just trying to figure out why AMSAT NA is not taking advantage of work 
already done.

Robert WB5MZO

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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread Bob McGwier
Why aren't you?  I have not heard your signal on a single linear 
satellite, including VU.

The technology BUILT and currently undergoing testing in ARISSat 1 will 
provide real tangible benefit for linear transponders (and nonlinear) in 
the VHF/UHF range for all sorts of missions.  But you sling mud at 
ARISSat without knowing what it actually IS don't you?

Bill Ress, N6GHZ, presented his linear transponder work at the forum.  
It is really nice work.  When we get done with high level HELAPS on it,  
it will be a very very nice linear transponder indeed, built on late 
model really nice, naturally hard devices.  The efficiency and more are 
better than achieved by RAH or the other transponder builders for VU.  
But that is to be expected.  We have had the advantage of time and the 
demand for better RF parts for all sorts of markets producing them.

Bob
N4HY


Rocky Jones wrote:
 http://www.qsl.net/pe1rah/HAMSAT.htm

 I am just trying to figure out why AMSAT NA is not taking advantage of work 
 already done.

 Robert WB5MZO
   


-- 
(Co)Author: DttSP, Quiktrak, PowerSDR, GnuRadio 
Member: ARRL, AMSAT, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats,
NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC.
You don't need to see the whole staircase, just
 take the first step., MLK.
Twitter:rwmcgwier
Active: Facebook,Myspace,LinkedIn


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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread WILLIAMS MICHAEL

Tim N3TL said:
 
I also don't share your view of?satellite operation using a handheld or 
otherwise portable station, which is less than positive. Again, I mean no 
disrespect - but I find very little challenge and even less satisfaction in 
making a satellite contact running 50-100 watts into?a pair of long, 
multi-element yagis being controlled for az/el by computers - and using a radio 
being computer controlled for Doppler.? Of course, many more satellite 
operators share views closer to yours than mine - or, at least, it seems that 
way.
 
Point taken, but there are two ways to enter the satellite section of this 
hobby.
 
1. The linear satellite way (FO-29, AO7 and VO-52). This was the way I 
selected. My early goal was to operate AO-40, and the station was constructed 
for this AMSAT project.
 
2. The second way is via the FM satellites. 
 
Both ways are valid. It all depends which way a person came to make that first 
satellite contact. It's still a thrill either way.
 
Respectively
 
Mike (K9QHO)
AMSAT 33589
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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread Tim - N3TL
Mark,

Thank you for this thoughtful post. Like many others using today's current 
roster of available satellites, I wasn't around for AO-40 or many other 
satellites that are recalled her so fondly by those who were.

If I could build, launch and select the orbit for an amateur satellite, I 
believe it would be something along the lines of what we've been told about the 
Chinese satellite known as XW-1. As I recall, it has an FM repeater, a linear 
transponder and a flying mailbox. A satellite with those capabilities in an 
AO-7-ish (or, actually, slightly higher) orbit would be one I would really 
enjoy. 

Even that, however, will take significantly more fundraising than what we have 
before us now. I applaud the Board of Directors and AMSAT's officers for 
accepting the Engineering Task Force recommendations and moving forward. 

My interests - and the challenges and satisfaction I find - in the amateur 
satellites are different from many others'. I recognize that the Board and 
AMSAT-NA officers inevitably walk a tightrope when faced with decisions because 
they won't ever make everyone happy. Consider just what the AO-51 operations 
team faces regularly when scheduling various modes on her - that's a very small 
taste of the dynamic interests that AMSAT worldwide faces in considering - then 
acting - on how best to move forward for the future. 

Sumbandilla Sat operation is on the horizon. I presume plans continue to move 
forward to XW-1 to be in orbit and available in the not-too-distant future. We 
all hope FO-29 will be back to her old self in no more than a few months. We 
now have ARISSat-1, the 1U cube sat and the amateur communications package in 
the rideshare opportunity. Even excluding FO-29, that is a significant increase 
in operating opportunities on the way fairly soon. I find that very exciting.

73 to all,

Tim - N3TL





From: Mark VandeWettering kf6...@gmail.com
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 3:54:31 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

 The funding solution will go by an international funding campaign and by a 
 fixed minimal contribution per amateur who want's to have an
 HEO. I am member of a local marina and each new member should pay a one time 
 Dredging Fee of 250$. The marina is open here from May 15 to
 October 4 about 5 months. I can used a satellite 12 months am i willing to 
 pay 250$ a year YES and could be more if a sound international
 structure with well defined planning and objectives can demonstrate a serious 
 will towards the next HEO.

Well, it's nice that you have an amount in mind for how much you would
pay.  Frankly, I'd probably be willing to spend 4x as that much.  It
probably would take that level of funding to get purchase a launch.
As far as I know, the terms of the bid that Arianspace quoted AMSAT-DL
were never released, but we get hints of the it in presentations like:

http://mstl.atl.calpoly.edu/~bklofas/Presentations/AMSATUK2009/3b_Gulzow-P3E.pdf

which suggests that 20,000 euros per kilogram isn't absurd, and they'd
be lucky to get a launch for half that price.  This would yield a
price for P3E of only (!) 1.7 million euros, or 2.5 million dollars
U.S.  AMSAT-DL didn't think such a launch was feasible, and claims
that the costs were (in ttheir words) one order of magnitude too
expensive.    As they say, bitter reality of their funding efforts
is that the attractiveness of amateur radio has dropped significantly,
and that funding a P3 satellite from amateur resources alone seems
not to work now and probably never again?.  In light of this,
AMSAT-DL has pursued tax money from their covernment to pursue a 20M
euro effort to fund launches for P5A and P3E.  I wish them luck, but
in the current economic environment, as well as past experience, I
think there is some reason for skepticism, or at least, no expectation
for a quick resolution to this issue.

 There is already a lot of dedicated peoples around the amateurs radio 
 satellite business who are only making their own small things in
 their small backyard. Why not regrouping their energies and money towards 
 ONLY ONE SINGLE big project? In the amateur satellite world we
 called that a HEO satellite as AO-40  and as AO-07 AO-10 AO-13 generation who 
 where the first steps towards AO-40.

I think the reason against such a strategy is quite simple, and it is
absolutely personified in AO-40.  Yes, AO-40 was a remarkable,
amazing, revolutionary amateur satellite.  But radio amateurs put all
their eggs in one basket, and that basket had a hole in it, and all
the eggs tumbled out, and now we are left not only with no eggs, but
with an environment where people might (reasonably in fact) ask why
they should put all their eggs in one basket again, particularly
because these baskets have rocket motors filled with hydrazine and
nitrogen tetroxide inside.  Even if we could fund an HEO launch, I
still think it is a matter

[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread Tony Langdon
At 03:53 AM 10/15/2009, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
Sanford, Fred wrote:
  I hope that AMSAT NA does not use an 70cm uplink, because that 
 band is not available for transmitting in all areas of the US.  I 
 live near Cape Cod, MA and 70cm is not available for transmitting 
 because of PAVE PAWS.
 
  Fred - KA1CQD
 
 
70 cms is actually the preferred uplink for a number of reasons,
including less path loss on the downlink, less ground based QRM, and
easier Doppler management. This was part of my lessons learned at LEO
paper from the Symposium.

70cm uplinks work better here.  We have had issues with newcomers not 
hearing the downlinks on 70 and then causing QRM, because they're not 
aware there's anyone there.  2m uplinks in this part of the world 
suffer from QRM when the birds are over Asia.  This affects FM LEOs 
worst, the linear transponders aren't as badly affected.

I've long preferred 70cm uplinks (the big reason SO-35 was such a hit 
down here).

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread Tim - N3TL
Hi Mike,

Thanks for your note. And, I suspect, when you entered the hobby back then, 
radios like the FT-817 weren't available - nor were effective portable antennas 
like the Elk and Arrow. 

As you recall, you and I had a contact on VO-52 not long ago that I emailed you 
about. I was using AFSK on a 1.5-watt Yaesu VX-3R HT, with a straight key 
connected to the mic jack. I just missed a contact on FO-29 before she went 
down. I intended to write up something for the Journal about a complete 
satellite station that would fit in a briefcase - with the ability to work all 
the FM satellites, all the linear satellites (granted, in CW only) and digipeat 
packets through the ISS digipeater. I still will write that story when FO-29 
comes back and I can get that contact. 

I surely don't begrudge you or anyone who operates from a high-quality, highly 
effective ground station. I continue to be disappointed by those who feel the 
need for the highest power available on the FM satellites because it's totally 
unnecessary and overkill. They keep others from enjoying the satellites as much 
as they because the lower powered stations don't have a chance. That's a moot 
point on the linear satellites, as we both know.

I apologize if my statements offended you. That surely wasn't my intent.

I hope all is well with you.

73,

Tim 





From: WILLIAMS MICHAEL k9qho6...@sbcglobal.net
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org; n...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:48:47 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web


Tim N3TL said:
 
I also don't share your view of?satellite operation using a handheld or 
otherwise portable station, which is less than positive. Again, I mean no 
disrespect - but I find very little challenge and even less satisfaction in 
making a satellite contact running 50-100 watts into?a pair of long, 
multi-element yagis being controlled for az/el by computers - and using a radio 
being computer controlled for Doppler.? Of course, many more satellite 
operators share views closer to yours than mine - or, at least, it seems that 
way.
 
Point taken, but there are two ways to enter the satellite section of this 
hobby.
 
1. The linear satellite way (FO-29, AO7 and VO-52). This was the way I 
selected. My early goal was to operate AO-40, and the station was constructed 
for this AMSAT project.
 
2. The second way is via the FM satellites. 
 
Both ways are valid. It all depends which way a person came to make that first 
satellite contact. It's still a thrill either way.
 
Respectively
 
Mike (K9QHO)
AMSAT 33589
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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread Rocky Jones

John.  I was told by someone else that the problem was current use...but if 
ITAR is the problem, then it can be fixed.  ITAR is a pain but it can be dealt 
with particularly in this case...where there is no dual use capability.

As for AMSAT's ARISSsat transponder.  Well we will see if it works.  They are 
not exactly burning up the track record with success.  We have had this 
argument and I am willing to sit back and see if it goes, but it is far to much 
project for the program.  Most of the folks I know at JSC give it less then 20 
percent chance of working...In fact it was a source of mirth at a recent BDAY 
party.

Robert WB5MZO

 From: kd6...@comcast.net
 To: orbit...@hotmail.com; n...@bellsouth.net; luclebla...@videotron.ca; 
 amsat-bb@amsat.org
 Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web
 Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:06:13 +
 
 AMSAT has a U/V linear transponder design in ARISSsat and according to the 
 last newsletter no foreign national has signed the agreement that ITAR 
 requires.
 
 73,
 
 John
 KD6OZH
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Rocky Jones orbit...@hotmail.com
 To: n...@bellsouth.net; luclebla...@videotron.ca; Amsat BB 
 amsat-bb@amsat.org
 Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 15:58 UTC
 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web
 
 
 
 http://www.qsl.net/pe1rah/HAMSAT.htm
 
 I am just trying to figure out why AMSAT NA is not taking advantage of work 
 already done.
 
 Robert WB5MZO
 
 _
 Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.
 http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-14 Thread G0MRF
 
Beware the troll. He speaks with zero knowledge but high opinions.
 
contribute or get out the way
 
 
 
In a message dated 14/10/2009 21:24:40 GMT Standard Time,  
orbit...@hotmail.com writes:

John.  I was told by someone else that the problem was current  use...but 
if ITAR is the problem, then it can be fixed.  ITAR is a pain  but it can be 
dealt with particularly in this case...where there is no dual  use 
capability.

As for AMSAT's ARISSsat transponder.  Well we will  see if it works.  They 
are not exactly burning up the track record with  success.  We have had this 
argument and I am willing to sit back and see  if it goes, but it is far to 
much project for the program.  Most of the  folks I know at JSC give it 
less then 20 percent chance of working...In fact  it was a source of mirth at a 
recent BDAY party.




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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-13 Thread Luc Leblanc




The new AMSAT CubeSat's initial capability is planned to add to the popular 
low-earth orbit FM transponder fleet
allowing hams to continue to use their existing handheld and portable antenna 
systems. This also continues the accessible
entry path for new satellite operators to get started. The existing FM 
satellites are starting to show their age.

It was widely admitted that AO-51 was a mistake years ago as a transponder type 
satellite should have been chosen instead of a single 
channel satellite.

IMHO There ia already enough capabilities with the existing fleet SO-50 AO-51 
AO-27 ISS cross band repeater for an entry class satellite 
plus many cubes in the making as arisat-1. What we lack is a HEO or some AO-07 
like satellite with transponder who will make 
transcontinental QSO'S possible. Theses one channel satellite are a waste of 
money compare to a transponder type as many simultaneous QSO'S 
can be achieved at the same time.

But theses issues where widely discussed in the past and i'm guessing the AMSAT 
symposium attendance widely clapped at this announcement!!!

What AMSAT-NA will be in the next years  HANDHELD CLUB as written  to 
continue to use their existing handheld and portable antenna 
systems. 

Wrong direction again 180 degrees of the logical course again!

P.S. It is obvious this variation on the same subject proposal will have plenty 
of time to evolved or to be put in real service only to be 
replaced by other new proposals. it is  the dog running after his tails 
syndrome who prevail again. Bottom line is another deceptive 
unrealistic proposal IMHO.

Feel free to agree or disagree but the shrinking AMSAT-NA membership is 
probably what's is triggering theses proposals a king of safety 
buoy for the BOD to avoid drowning the whole crew and her ship.
-


Luc Leblanc VE2DWE
Skype VE2DWE
www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
DSTAR urcall VE2DWE
WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE

 

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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-13 Thread Luc Leblanc
On 13 Oct 2009 at 18:42, Tim - N3TL wrote:

Date sent:  Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:42:15 -0700 (PDT)
From:   Tim - N3TL n...@bellsouth.net
Subject:Re: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web
To: Luc Leblanc luclebla...@videotron.ca, amsat-bb@amsat.org
Copies to:  eu-am...@yahoogroups.com

 Hello Luc,
 
 I have some questions. 
 
  1- What is the logical direction, in your opinion?

Helping our German's friends launching P3E

  2 - How much would that direction cost, in your opinion?

A lot of $$$ who should better invest in achieving P3E rather than sending 
another FM single channel LEO repeater cube

  3 - How would you propose paying for that direction?
 
I never see a clear financial and funding projected structure in years since 
AO-40. On any project when the goals are set and the money 
target is clearly establish the hard part will be to regroup all the 
international AMSAT'S and all the potential funding sources: 
government, spaces agencies, universities, amateur radio association eg: ARRL, 
RAC, RSGB ect (Some of them already contribute to P3E)

The funding solution will go by an international funding campaign and by a 
fixed minimal contribution per amateur who want's to have an 
HEO. I am member of a local marina and each new member should pay a one time 
Dredging Fee of 250$. The marina is open here from May 15 to 
October 4 about 5 months. I can used a satellite 12 months am i willing to pay 
250$ a year YES and could be more if a sound international 
structure with well defined planning and objectives can demonstrate a serious 
will towards the next HEO.

There is already a lot of dedicated peoples around the amateurs radio satellite 
business who are only making their own small things in 
their small backyard. Why not regrouping their energies and money towards ONLY 
ONE SINGLE big project? In the amateur satellite world we 
called that a HEO satellite as AO-40  and as AO-07 AO-10 AO-13 generation who 
where the first steps towards AO-40.

Just to be clear my opinion is not against the collective effort and people 
works but against some of the objectives they carry. Volunteers 
motivation should be the best interest of all not the few.

Feel free to come back this is a very wide subject of discussion with many 
possible outcome.

73 Tim
-


Luc Leblanc VE2DWE
Skype VE2DWE
www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
DSTAR urcall VE2DWE
WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE

 


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[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web

2009-10-13 Thread Tim - N3TL
Hello Luc,

I have some questions. 

 1- What is the logical direction, in your opinion?
 2 - How much would that direction cost, in your opinion?
 3 - How would you propose paying for that direction?

I look forward to learning more so that I can more fully understand your 
positioin.

73,

Tim - N3TL





From: Luc Leblanc luclebla...@videotron.ca
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Cc: eu-am...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 11:05:59 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Symposium News Posted to the Web





The new AMSAT CubeSat's initial capability is planned to add to the popular 
low-earth orbit FM transponder fleet
allowing hams to continue to use their existing handheld and portable antenna 
systems. This also continues the accessible
entry path for new satellite operators to get started. The existing FM 
satellites are starting to show their age.

It was widely admitted that AO-51 was a mistake years ago as a transponder type 
satellite should have been chosen instead of a single 
channel satellite.

IMHO There ia already enough capabilities with the existing fleet SO-50 AO-51 
AO-27 ISS cross band repeater for an entry class satellite 
plus many cubes in the making as arisat-1. What we lack is a HEO or some AO-07 
like satellite with transponder who will make 
transcontinental QSO'S possible. Theses one channel satellite are a waste of 
money compare to a transponder type as many simultaneous QSO'S 
can be achieved at the same time.

But theses issues where widely discussed in the past and i'm guessing the AMSAT 
symposium attendance widely clapped at this announcement!!!

What AMSAT-NA will be in the next years  HANDHELD CLUB as written  to 
continue to use their existing handheld and portable antenna 
systems. 

Wrong direction again 180 degrees of the logical course again!

P..S. It is obvious this variation on the same subject proposal will have 
plenty of time to evolved or to be put in real service only to be 
replaced by other new proposals. it is  the dog running after his tails 
syndrome who prevail again. Bottom line is another deceptive 
unrealistic proposal IMHO.

Feel free to agree or disagree but the shrinking AMSAT-NA membership is 
probably what's is triggering theses proposals a king of safety 
buoy for the BOD to avoid drowning the whole crew and her ship.
-


Luc Leblanc VE2DWE
Skype VE2DWE
www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
DSTAR urcall VE2DWE
WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE



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