[amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS
P3E is part of the AMSAT-DL Mars mission and the launch depends on German government funding rather than amateur funding. Why not make use of a nearly free launch opportunuty as AMSAT-NA is doing? 73, John KD6OZH - Original Message - From: Rocky Jones orbit...@hotmail.com To: ka1...@yahoo.com; Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 20:57 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Miles..What I dont get, but to be fair to AMSAT I have not had a lot of time to pay attention to...is why some projects are going on and why some of those are going where they are going. Suitsat for instance. It started out as a pretty simple effort to make use of discarded equipment. OK the first one had some problems but those could have been troubleshooted and fixed and then something similar be readied for the next opportunity to fly. Now if one reads what is up on line and in AMSAT the project has morphed quite a bit...and worse as best as I can tell looking at the station manifest, the Russian suits are gone. IE the used ones were tossed into the progress around July and dumped into the Pacific...there is still some uplift possibility and apparently a deployment in 2010...but as best I can see what they are going to have to put together is an actual frame of some sort which along with the payload has bumped up the complexity a bit. If they get into trying to get the strows on board to try and actually doing a lot of assembly that will I bet flounder in short order. So with money needed for the launch cost for P3E...why is this project going on? At best it is a very short term flight. For all I know this has been discussed on line, I am moving into a new airplane and when that starts happening I sort of drop out of the world for the months that takes...but... ISS is going to change. If you have been following the Augustine commission there is likely to be some massive changes in how ISS is accessed over the next 5-10 years...Amsat probably is but in any event should be moving to make some inroads in that access. there is also likely to be some massive changes in how ISS is operated (but that is another story). Robert WB5MZO Amsat life member From: orbit...@hotmail.com To: ka1...@yahoo.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:37:40 -0500 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Miles. well done. I suspect that you have hit a brick wall...but I concur in everything you wrote. Having said that. ISS and human spaceflight in general (at least in the US) is on the verge of a very big shake up...and that might shake the ham equation as well. Robert Oler WB5MZO Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:20:38 -0700 From: ka1...@yahoo.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Marex Miles Mann WF1F Marex w...@marexmg.org August 25, 2009 Dear ARISS supporters: I am writing to you because of the extremely poor track record that ARISS has accumulated over the past 12 years regarding ISS hardware projects. The only way to correct the problem and fix the Amateur Radio educational program is to completely reorganization the current ARISS hardware structure. Under the new ARISS Closed Door policy, only selected members from AMSAT-NA are allowed to participate. This new policy has turned the once open ARISS into a closed door Monopoly controlled by the AMSAT Corporation. Based on the current actions of ARISS and their very poor performance with in-flight hardware I would like to propose a complete reorganization of the ARISS hardware process. Please review the enclosed information. I look forward to discussing the proposal with you are your earliest opportunity. Sincerely G. Miles Mann Memo from ARISS April 2009 From Gaston Bertels ARISS Chairman Hi Miles, By decision of the ARISS Board, participation to ARISS-i meetings is limited to delegates from the Member Societies and observers nominated by these societies. USA member societies are the ARRL and AMSAT NA. Only these societies can nominate participants to the ARISS-i meetings. Best regards 73 Gaston Bertels, ON4WF ARISS Chairman ARISS Reorganization Proposal By Miles Mann June 17, 2009 Rev 1.01 What is ARISS? The goal of ARISS was to create an organization to select, control and coordinate Amateur Radio projects designed for the International Space Station (ISS). The ARISS program would then assist the 16 countries (Russia, Canada, Japan, Brazil, USA, member nations of ESA, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom), which are supporting the ISS to help choose the best educational Amateur Radio projects for ISS. Each county would have delegate-voting
[amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS
John. nearly Free when dealing with the ISS or space shuttle is like saying not very pregnant. The ride up might be free but the integration cost and everything else associated with the effort are a lot. I would however be curious what the end to end cost of suitsat the next are going to be. Particularly now that a space frame has to be developed. Robert WB5MZO From: kd6...@comcast.net To: orbit...@hotmail.com; ka1...@yahoo.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:33:31 + P3E is part of the AMSAT-DL Mars mission and the launch depends on German government funding rather than amateur funding. Why not make use of a nearly free launch opportunuty as AMSAT-NA is doing? 73, John KD6OZH - Original Message - From: Rocky Jones orbit...@hotmail.com To: ka1...@yahoo.com; Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 20:57 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Miles..What I dont get, but to be fair to AMSAT I have not had a lot of time to pay attention to...is why some projects are going on and why some of those are going where they are going. Suitsat for instance. It started out as a pretty simple effort to make use of discarded equipment. OK the first one had some problems but those could have been troubleshooted and fixed and then something similar be readied for the next opportunity to fly. Now if one reads what is up on line and in AMSAT the project has morphed quite a bit...and worse as best as I can tell looking at the station manifest, the Russian suits are gone. IE the used ones were tossed into the progress around July and dumped into the Pacific...there is still some uplift possibility and apparently a deployment in 2010...but as best I can see what they are going to have to put together is an actual frame of some sort which along with the payload has bumped up the complexity a bit. If they get into trying to get the strows on board to try and actually doing a lot of assembly that will I bet flounder in short order. So with money needed for the launch cost for P3E...why is this project going on? At best it is a very short term flight. For all I know this has been discussed on line, I am moving into a new airplane and when that starts happening I sort of drop out of the world for the months that takes...but... ISS is going to change. If you have been following the Augustine commission there is likely to be some massive changes in how ISS is accessed over the next 5-10 years...Amsat probably is but in any event should be moving to make some inroads in that access. there is also likely to be some massive changes in how ISS is operated (but that is another story). Robert WB5MZO Amsat life member From: orbit...@hotmail.com To: ka1...@yahoo.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:37:40 -0500 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Miles. well done. I suspect that you have hit a brick wall...but I concur in everything you wrote. Having said that. ISS and human spaceflight in general (at least in the US) is on the verge of a very big shake up...and that might shake the ham equation as well. Robert Oler WB5MZO Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:20:38 -0700 From: ka1...@yahoo.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Marex Miles Mann WF1F Marex w...@marexmg.org August 25, 2009 Dear ARISS supporters: I am writing to you because of the extremely poor track record that ARISS has accumulated over the past 12 years regarding ISS hardware projects. The only way to correct the problem and fix the Amateur Radio educational program is to completely reorganization the current ARISS hardware structure. Under the new ARISS Closed Door policy, only selected members from AMSAT-NA are allowed to participate. This new policy has turned the once open ARISS into a closed door Monopoly controlled by the AMSAT Corporation. Based on the current actions of ARISS and their very poor performance with in-flight hardware I would like to propose a complete reorganization of the ARISS hardware process. Please review the enclosed information. I look forward to discussing the proposal with you are your earliest opportunity. Sincerely G. Miles Mann Memo from ARISS April 2009 From Gaston Bertels ARISS Chairman Hi Miles, By decision of the ARISS Board, participation to ARISS-i meetings is limited to delegates from the Member Societies and observers nominated by these societies. USA member societies are the ARRL and AMSAT NA. Only these societies can nominate participants to the ARISS-i meetings. Best regards 73 Gaston Bertels
[amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS
Miles, It is a shame that the public aren't allowed at the meetings (I've attended before, and they are most interesting). I'm not sure of the reason, but I think that your conclusion that the 'AMSAT Corporation' by which I assume you mean AMSAT-NA wishes to monopolise ARISS may not be true. It was the original ISS partner countries in USA, Russia, Japan, Europe and Canada who set up ARISS. I cant remember how many votes each of these ARISS partners are entitled to, but certainly the USA doesnt get a majority vote. (But I acknowledge does a great deal, along with Russia, of the work). At the ARISS-i meetings I've attended, I recall that the delegates from the ISS partner Nations (USA, Russia, Japan, Europe and Canada) were the ones votong on the proposals In Europe the member societies of ARRIS-EU are AMSAT-Belgium AMSAT-CT Portugal AMSAT-France AMSAT-Italy AMSAT-SM Sweden AMSAT-UK ARI Italy DARC Germany MARL Malta PZK Poland RAL Lebanon REF-Union France REP Portugal RSGB UK UBA Belgium USKA Switzerland You can see that there are as many National Amateur Radio Societies, as there are AMSAT's. As Gaston has said, member Societies within the US are AMSAT and ARRL; I can't understand how you can assume that AMSAT is attempting to monopolise ARRIS. 73 Jim G3WGM Hon Sec AMSAT-UK and ARISS Supporter. -Original Message- From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org]on Behalf Of Rocky Jones Sent: 15 August 2009 18:38 To: ka1...@yahoo.com; Amsat BB Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Miles. well done. I suspect that you have hit a brick wall...but I concur in everything you wrote. Having said that. ISS and human spaceflight in general (at least in the US) is on the verge of a very big shake up...and that might shake the ham equation as well. Robert Oler WB5MZO Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:20:38 -0700 From: ka1...@yahoo.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Marex Miles Mann WF1F Marex w...@marexmg.org August 25, 2009 Dear ARISS supporters: I am writing to you because of the extremely poor track record that ARISS has accumulated over the past 12 years regarding ISS hardware projects. The only way to correct the problem and fix the Amateur Radio educational program is to completely reorganization the current ARISS hardware structure. Under the new ARISS Closed Door policy, only selected members from AMSAT-NA are allowed to participate. This new policy has turned the once open ARISS into a closed door Monopoly controlled by the AMSAT Corporation. Based on the current actions of ARISS and their very poor performance with in-flight hardware I would like to propose a complete reorganization of the ARISS hardware process. Please review the enclosed information. I look forward to discussing the proposal with you are your earliest opportunity. Sincerely G. Miles Mann Memo from ARISS April 2009 From Gaston Bertels ARISS Chairman Hi Miles, By decision of the ARISS Board, participation to ARISS-i meetings is limited to delegates from the Member Societies and observers nominated by these societies. USA member societies are the ARRL and AMSAT NA. Only these societies can nominate participants to the ARISS-i meetings. Best regards 73 Gaston Bertels, ON4WF ARISS Chairman ARISS Reorganization Proposal By Miles Mann June 17, 2009 Rev 1.01 What is ARISS? The goal of ARISS was to create an organization to select, control and coordinate Amateur Radio projects designed for the International Space Station (ISS). The ARISS program would then assist the 16 countries (Russia, Canada, Japan, Brazil, USA, member nations of ESA, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom), which are supporting the ISS to help choose the best educational Amateur Radio projects for ISS. Each county would have delegate-voting privileges on ARISS and project selection activities. Summary: When Dave Larsen and Miles Mann (MAREX) helped form ARISS in August 1996, one of our goals was to keep Space open for the public and not turn the ISS, into a monopoly controlled by the AMSAT Corporation. We were partially successful. Unfortunately most of the ARISS voting delegation came from AMSAT Corporation representatives from different counties and a few other radio clubs. The newly formed ARISS agreed to allow competing clubs to submit proposals. The MAREX team helped create ARISS, however since the majority of people present were from the AMSAT Corporation, MAREX was not allowed to have any voting privileges. Prior to 2009, ARISS would say that its meetings were open to the public and other clubs were welcome to observer. In 2009 ARISS changed its open
[amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS
Miles..What I dont get, but to be fair to AMSAT I have not had a lot of time to pay attention to...is why some projects are going on and why some of those are going where they are going. Suitsat for instance. It started out as a pretty simple effort to make use of discarded equipment. OK the first one had some problems but those could have been troubleshooted and fixed and then something similar be readied for the next opportunity to fly. Now if one reads what is up on line and in AMSAT the project has morphed quite a bit...and worse as best as I can tell looking at the station manifest, the Russian suits are gone. IE the used ones were tossed into the progress around July and dumped into the Pacific...there is still some uplift possibility and apparently a deployment in 2010...but as best I can see what they are going to have to put together is an actual frame of some sort which along with the payload has bumped up the complexity a bit. If they get into trying to get the strows on board to try and actually doing a lot of assembly that will I bet flounder in short order. So with money needed for the launch cost for P3E...why is this project going on? At best it is a very short term flight. For all I know this has been discussed on line, I am moving into a new airplane and when that starts happening I sort of drop out of the world for the months that takes...but... ISS is going to change. If you have been following the Augustine commission there is likely to be some massive changes in how ISS is accessed over the next 5-10 years...Amsat probably is but in any event should be moving to make some inroads in that access. there is also likely to be some massive changes in how ISS is operated (but that is another story). Robert WB5MZO Amsat life member From: orbit...@hotmail.com To: ka1...@yahoo.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:37:40 -0500 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Miles. well done. I suspect that you have hit a brick wall...but I concur in everything you wrote. Having said that. ISS and human spaceflight in general (at least in the US) is on the verge of a very big shake up...and that might shake the ham equation as well. Robert Oler WB5MZO Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:20:38 -0700 From: ka1...@yahoo.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Marex Miles Mann WF1F Marex w...@marexmg.org August 25, 2009 Dear ARISS supporters: I am writing to you because of the extremely poor track record that ARISS has accumulated over the past 12 years regarding ISS hardware projects. The only way to correct the problem and fix the Amateur Radio educational program is to completely reorganization the current ARISS hardware structure. Under the new ARISS Closed Door policy, only selected members from AMSAT-NA are allowed to participate. This new policy has turned the once open ARISS into a closed door Monopoly controlled by the AMSAT Corporation. Based on the current actions of ARISS and their very poor performance with in-flight hardware I would like to propose a complete reorganization of the ARISS hardware process. Please review the enclosed information. I look forward to discussing the proposal with you are your earliest opportunity. Sincerely G. Miles Mann Memo from ARISS April 2009 From Gaston Bertels ARISS Chairman Hi Miles, By decision of the ARISS Board, participation to ARISS-i meetings is limited to delegates from the Member Societies and observers nominated by these societies. USA member societies are the ARRL and AMSAT NA. Only these societies can nominate participants to the ARISS-i meetings. Best regards 73 Gaston Bertels, ON4WF ARISS Chairman ARISS Reorganization Proposal By Miles Mann June 17, 2009 Rev 1.01 What is ARISS? The goal of ARISS was to create an organization to select, control and coordinate Amateur Radio projects designed for the International Space Station (ISS). The ARISS program would then assist the 16 countries (Russia, Canada, Japan, Brazil, USA, member nations of ESA, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom), which are supporting the ISS to help choose the best educational Amateur Radio projects for ISS. Each county would have delegate-voting privileges on ARISS and project selection activities. Summary: When Dave Larsen and Miles Mann (MAREX) helped form ARISS in August 1996, one of our goals was to keep Space open for the public and not turn the ISS, into a monopoly controlled by the AMSAT Corporation. We were partially successful. Unfortunately most of the ARISS voting
[amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS
Miles. well done. I suspect that you have hit a brick wall...but I concur in everything you wrote. Having said that. ISS and human spaceflight in general (at least in the US) is on the verge of a very big shake up...and that might shake the ham equation as well. Robert Oler WB5MZO Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:20:38 -0700 From: ka1...@yahoo.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS Marex Miles Mann WF1F Marex w...@marexmg.org August 25, 2009 Dear ARISS supporters: I am writing to you because of the extremely poor track record that ARISS has accumulated over the past 12 years regarding ISS hardware projects. The only way to correct the problem and fix the Amateur Radio educational program is to completely reorganization the current ARISS hardware structure. Under the new ARISS Closed Door policy, only selected members from AMSAT-NA are allowed to participate. This new policy has turned the once open ARISS into a closed door Monopoly controlled by the AMSAT Corporation. Based on the current actions of ARISS and their very poor performance with in-flight hardware I would like to propose a complete reorganization of the ARISS hardware process. Please review the enclosed information. I look forward to discussing the proposal with you are your earliest opportunity. Sincerely G. Miles Mann Memo from ARISS April 2009 From Gaston Bertels ARISS Chairman Hi Miles, By decision of the ARISS Board, participation to ARISS-i meetings is limited to delegates from the Member Societies and observers nominated by these societies. USA member societies are the ARRL and AMSAT NA. Only these societies can nominate participants to the ARISS-i meetings. Best regards 73 Gaston Bertels, ON4WF ARISS Chairman ARISS Reorganization Proposal By Miles Mann June 17, 2009 Rev 1.01 What is ARISS? The goal of ARISS was to create an organization to select, control and coordinate Amateur Radio projects designed for the International Space Station (ISS). The ARISS program would then assist the 16 countries (Russia, Canada, Japan, Brazil, USA, member nations of ESA, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom), which are supporting the ISS to help choose the best educational Amateur Radio projects for ISS. Each county would have delegate-voting privileges on ARISS and project selection activities. Summary: When Dave Larsen and Miles Mann (MAREX) helped form ARISS in August 1996, one of our goals was to keep Space open for the public and not turn the ISS, into a monopoly controlled by the AMSAT Corporation. We were partially successful. Unfortunately most of the ARISS voting delegation came from AMSAT Corporation representatives from different counties and a few other radio clubs. The newly formed ARISS agreed to allow competing clubs to submit proposals. The MAREX team helped create ARISS, however since the majority of people present were from the AMSAT Corporation, MAREX was not allowed to have any voting privileges. Prior to 2009, ARISS would say that its meetings were open to the public and other clubs were welcome to observer. In 2009 ARISS changed its open door policy to a closed-door policy. The public is no longer allowed to attend any of the meetings. Now, only selected members of the AMSAT Corporation are allowed to present Amateur radio project proposals to ARISS for International Space Station. The AMSAT Corporation has full control over the voting and the hardware selection process, thus creating a monopoly on the International Space station for Amateur Radio projects. ARISS Reorganization Proposal: There are two main reasons to reorganize the ARISS delegate voting structure. 1) The AMSAT Corporation has a monopolistic control over ARISS and has routinely blocked competitive Educational Amateur radio projects from being submitted. The new closed-door policy and Selected AMSAT Members only policy are part of the struggling AMSAT Corporations attempt to make the International Space Station their private Space Station monopoly. The actions of the AMSAT Corporation remind me of a fictional movie Quote Star Wars, A New Hope Princess Leia, says to Governor Wilhuff Tarkin: The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers 2) Over the past 12 years AMSAT Corporation has demonstrated its inability to Select, Manage and Maintain Educational Amateur Radio hardware projects for the International Space Station. The hardware track record of the AMSAT Corporation control over ARISS projects on ISS has been very poor. In a separate document I will go over the hardware failures and the success we have had in the ARISS project. You
[amsat-bb] Re: Lets Fix ISS, Replace ARISS
Miles. well done. I suspect that you have hit a brick wall...but I concur in everything you wrote. Be careful. ARISS cannot have loose cannons on deck that can bounce around all over the place destroying the very fabric of the formal and informal ties that ARISS has with the international space community. It is unfortunate, but I can easily see why this has come about. Lets hope that those hardworkers in ARISS can keep ahead of the ankle-biters and can make some progress on our behalf instead of having to always be swatting at kibitzers... Good luck ARISS! Bob, WB4APR ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
