[amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
I realize this is still very early in the dreaming stage but it would be nice to start seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about starting with a blank worksheet that outlines the desirements and requirements. This would give folks some specifics to address. *LUNAR System* Modulation type: Mode: Power source: Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band): Lunar TX antenna (type and gain): Lunar receiver (type and band): Lunar RX antenna (type and gain): Lunar controller (type and capability): Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched: Length of time the system is expected to operate: Periods that the system is expected to be available for use: Once you have some general ideas as to what the items are then you will have a good idea of the total weight, size and what it will cost to buy, build and certify for spaceflight. It would also be nice to know what sort of station equipment would be needed to use this lunar system. *EARTH Station* Description of minimal Earth station capable of operation through above mentioned lunar system: Transmitter (type, output power and band): TX antenna (type and gain): Receiver (type and band): RX antenna (type and gain): Antenna tracking system: The above should allow for a realistic guess at the number of users willing to and capable of operating through the system. Kenneth From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of MM [ka1...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:14 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO High orbit launch prices It is hard to find exact values for the price per kilo to a geo-stationery orbit. I did find a few old numbers on the web suggesting that around the year 2000 prices were approximately 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo. I can only assume it will cost more today’s 2009 dollars. If we were to build our own Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep the weight down to the same weight of AO-40 (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD million in launching fees (plus inflation). That is not including the cost of the satellite. A ballpark Geo-stationary amateur radio satellite and launching fees would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG). If you have an extra 40 million kicking around then go ahead and build us a Geo satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk them into attaching a Micro Satellite to the next geo satellite for Free great, go for it. I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the flight and navigation and just tag along for the ride. In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned Landers to the Moon. All we need to do is convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo micro-satellite to the moon lander and use some of their power and antennas, etc. Just look at the Huge Savings $$$ No navigation system (we have never had much luck at building our own rocket motors (AO-10- damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused a premature reentry and AO-40 Kaboom) No command and control RF links (just command between the Microsat and existing command and control system) NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope) Assuming a good landing, there will not be any need for periodic orbital changes. It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited. I believe that Putting the effort into building a Moon qualified micro satellite seems to be the most economical path to take. And will provide the greatest return on our investment. Sincerely Miles WF1F MarexMG.org ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
Hi Kenneth, et al, Would this be a good opportunity to dust off the low data rate digital package that was planned for Eagle? If I recall, it was to be multi-service and operate at relatively low s/n levels. Replace the antennas, of course, and the radio power amps. The resulting Earth station should still be quite affordable. Just a thought, Greg KO6TH > From: kenneth.g.ran...@nasa.gov > To: ka1...@yahoo.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 21:29:47 -0500 > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO > > I realize this is still very early in the dreaming stage but it would be nice > to start seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about starting with a > blank worksheet that outlines the desirements and requirements. This would > give folks some specifics to address. > > *LUNAR System* > Modulation type: > Mode: > Power source: > Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band): > Lunar TX antenna (type and gain): > Lunar receiver (type and band): > Lunar RX antenna (type and gain): > Lunar controller (type and capability): > > Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched: > Length of time the system is expected to operate: > Periods that the system is expected to be available for use: > > Once you have some general ideas as to what the items are then you will have > a good idea of the total weight, size and what it will cost to buy, build and > certify for spaceflight. It would also be nice to know what sort of station > equipment would be needed to use this lunar system. > > *EARTH Station* > Description of minimal Earth station capable of operation through above > mentioned lunar system: > Transmitter (type, output power and band): > TX antenna (type and gain): > Receiver (type and band): > RX antenna (type and gain): > Antenna tracking system: > > The above should allow for a realistic guess at the number of users willing > to and capable of operating through the system. > > Kenneth > > From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of MM > [ka1...@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:14 PM > To: amsat-bb@amsat.org > Subject: [amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO > > High orbit launch prices > > It is hard to find exact values for the price per kilo to a geo-stationery > orbit. I did find a few old numbers on the web suggesting that around the > year 2000 prices were approximately 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo. I can > only assume it will cost more today’s 2009 dollars. If we were to build our > own Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep the weight down to the > same weight of AO-40 (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD million in > launching fees (plus inflation). That is not including the cost of the > satellite. A ballpark Geo-stationary amateur radio satellite and launching > fees would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG). > > If you have an extra 40 million kicking around then go ahead and build us a > Geo satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk them into attaching a > Micro Satellite to the next geo satellite for Free great, go for it. > > I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into > the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the > flight and navigation and just tag along for the ride. > > In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned Landers to the Moon. All we need > to do is convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo micro-satellite to the > moon lander and use some of their power and antennas, etc. > > Just look at the Huge Savings $$$ > No navigation system (we have never had much luck at building our own rocket > motors (AO-10- damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused a premature > reentry and AO-40 Kaboom) > > No command and control RF links (just command between the Microsat and > existing command and control system) > > NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope) > > Assuming a good landing, there will not be any need for periodic orbital > changes. > > It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited. > I believe that Putting the effort into building a Moon qualified micro > satellite seems to be the most economical path to take. And will provide the > greatest return on our investment. > > Sincerely > > Miles WF1F MarexMG.org > > > > > > > > ___ > Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Su
[amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
We have been discussing building and packaging a system that is SEPARATE from the rest of the landing craft that would take up weight and not supply ANY benefit to any mission support. What if we change that to from just asking for a FREE ride to helping provide mission specific support ALONG with supplying the band width for our needs? If we could build a package that would support the PRIMARY mission and then could be switched over for our needs during or after the mission, don't you think that we MAY get a better consideration for a FREE ride for these ideas? Domenico, I8CVS, brings up a good point about IF bandwidth also. 1) How many QSOs do we want to be able to have on this? FM would be a HUGE waste of resources (even though a modulated CW beacon may be an idea to entice some of the FM users). a) 2 SBB/6 CW? b) 5 SSB/15 CW? c) 10 SSB/30 CW? 2) How much electrical power do we need to supply for each of these amounts? 3) IS it feasible to have that many or do we have to limit ourselves? Kenneth brings up good points also. 1) How LONG do we PLAN this to be usable? 2) Power source - solar? nuclear? battery (even though I don't think they would last very long, still have to consider them here)? 3) WHAT do we need to do to certify this package for flight? 4) HOW many do we need to build to get ONE certified as flight ready hardware? 5) How do we control it? 6) How complicated do we want to go? As far as the Earth station, the bigger the better as always. But anything above 23cm would be feasible EVEN for that antenna restricted home station that is becoming the norm now a days. 45 element 1.2GHz antenna: Boom Length: 144 inches Weight: 5 pounds Gain: 20dbi 3db Beamwidth: 16 degrees 52 element 2.4GHz loop antenna: Boom Length: 96 inches Weight: 3 pounds Gain: 21 dbi 3db Beamwidth: 14 degrees 45 element 3.4GHz antenna: Boom Length: 60 inches Weight: 1.5 pounds Gain: 20dbi 3db Beamwidth: 16 degrees These are figures that I have handy for antennas I already have. Each of these antennas can be had from Directive Systems for about one hundred and fifty dollars each as a kit, more if you want it already assembled. I give these as EXAMPLES to help out. Preamps and amplifiers are extra. But even those are cheap if you want to tinker some. I found a 75 watt 2.4GHz amplifier for 20 dollars at Dayton this year that would give me about half that if I run it on 12 volts instead of 26 volts. 1.2GHz/2.4GHz antennas: 300 dollars 1.2GHz preamp: 50 dollars 2.4GHz amplifier: 25 dollars sequencer: 60 dollars 1.2GHz transverter: 100 dollars (W1GHZ type) 2.4GHz transverter: 100 dollars (W1GHZ type) Misc. parts:100 dollars TOTAL: 735 dollars (+/-) This is presuming that the station ALREADY has a 2m SSB radio and no homebrewing other than putting together the W1GHZ transverters, sequencer, 2.4GHZ amplifier, and antenna mounting hardware. So cost CAN be kept down to about 1000 dollars, maybe even less than the 735 dollar figure if the station is very creative (possibly around the 500 dollar mark then). If the plan stays at using 2m and 70cms, antennas do get bulkier and harder to handle for teardown and setup. ( I know - I am preaching to the choir here...) Figures are based on what I already have handy, so I may have to add or change depending on what bands are used. James W8ISS = On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 21:29 -0500, Ransom, Kenneth G. (JSC-OC)[BARRIOS TECHNOLOGY] wrote: > I realize this is still very early in the dreaming stage but it would be > nice to start seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about starting with > a blank worksheet that outlines the desirements and requirements. This would > give folks some specifics to address. > > *LUNAR System* > Modulation type: > Mode: > Power source: > Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band): > Lunar TX antenna (type and gain): > Lunar receiver (type and band): > Lunar RX antenna (type and gain): > Lunar controller (type and capability): > > Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched: > Length of time the system is expected to operate: > Periods that the system is expected to be available for use: > > Once you have some general ideas as to what the items are then you will have > a good idea of the total weight, size and what it will cost to buy, build and > certify for spaceflight. It would also be nice to know what sort of station > equipment would be needed to use this lunar system. > > *EARTH Station* > Description of minimal Earth station capable of operation through above > mentioned lunar system: > Transmitter (type, output power and band): > TX antenna (type and gain): > Receiver (type and band): > RX antenna (type and gain): > Antenna tracking system: > > The above should allow for a realistic guess at the number of users > willing to and capable of operating through the system. > > Kenneth >
[amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
Greetings, First of all, I appreciate the efforts of the dedicated few of AMSAT that actually go out and make things happen. You don't hear "Thank you" often enough. Being this early in the idea phase, there are a lot of questions and unknowns. What frequencies to use and what the link requirements will be can all be worked out. The bigger question for me is if the moon is a good platform for an amateur transponder. No doubt it is technically doable. If the decision is based only on launch availability--It's the moon or nothing at all--then to the moon we go. But let's all understand what we are getting into. To the best of my knowledge, NASA does not now have an unmanned lunar lander mission that has been approved, although there is a lander planned in the greater scheme of things. Perhaps someone could direct me to some current information. The last I knew, the plan called for a lander referred to as RLEP-2. It was going to be a lander/rover powered by RTG's with a 1 year mission to explore Shackleton crater near the moon's south pole. The cost was going to be in the $400-$750 million range. The launch vehicle was going to have excess capacity so it was proposed that 3-4 mini satellites be deployed in lunar orbit to do remote sensing AND provide a communication link for the lander. So, if this is the mission we are talking about putting our transponder on, it sounds like we won't hear it on earth once the rover drives into the crater. Putting our transponder on one of the mini satellites sounds like a better plan. Again, I had difficulty finding current information on NASA's unmanned lunar lander plans. The last I read anything about RLEP-2 was that it was in serious trouble because of cost and was going to be sharply cut back. If our NASA host spacecraft will take care of all the housekeeping and provided free power, then a low cost transponder sounds like something we can do (although AMSAT-NA currently does not have a satellite lab--we may need to contract out the transponder work). We just need to understand we will not have control of the on/off switch (the repeater on the ISS or the Planetary Society's microphone on the Mars Phoenix lander for example). The days of getting a free launch is over, and it is too bad the Intelsat ride share idea did not pan out for us. As I have said before, I am not opposed to a transponder on the moon, I just have a lot of unanswered questions. Thanks again to the dedicated few at AMSAT that make things happen. Armando, N8IGJ >Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 18:14:59 -0700 (PDT) >From: MM >Subject: [amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO >To: amsat-bb@amsat.org >Message-ID: <228402.31352...@web56404.mail.re3.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >High orbit launch prices >I can?t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into >the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the >flight >and navigation and just tag along for the ride. ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
The thing is we have 'discussed' this a FEW times in the past and the ideas get better each time plus the technical discussion gets more information input each time. Maybe this time things will progress beyond the talking and more into the planning/design phase. James W8ISS ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
I agree on the Lunar X Prize, http://www.googlelunarxprize.org/ There are 19 teams so far in the chase, why do we not contact every one of them with the proposal? there is 30 million purse there a waiting. we could even say give us the ride and they can keep the prize Joe WB9SBD Armando Mercado wrote: >Greetings, > >First of all, I appreciate the efforts of the dedicated few of >AMSAT that actually go out and make things happen. >You don't hear "Thank you" often enough. > > > >Being this early in the idea phase, there are a lot of >questions and unknowns. What frequencies to use and >what the link requirements will be can all be worked out. > >The bigger question for me is if the moon is a good platform >for an amateur transponder. No doubt it is technically doable. >If the decision is based only on launch availability--It's the moon >or nothing at all--then to the moon we go. But let's all >understand what we are getting into. > >To the best of my knowledge, NASA does not now have an >unmanned lunar lander mission that has been approved, although >there is a lander planned in the greater scheme of things. Perhaps >someone could direct me to some current information. > >The last I knew, the plan called for a lander referred to as RLEP-2. >It was going to be a lander/rover powered by RTG's with a 1 year >mission to explore Shackleton crater near the moon's south pole. >The cost was going to be in the $400-$750 million range. The launch >vehicle was going to have excess capacity so it was proposed that >3-4 mini satellites be deployed in lunar orbit to do remote sensing >AND provide a communication link for the lander. > >So, if this is the mission we are talking about putting our transponder >on, it sounds like we won't hear it on earth once the rover drives >into the crater. Putting our transponder on one of the mini satellites >sounds like a better plan. > >Again, I had difficulty finding current information on NASA's unmanned >lunar lander plans. The last I read anything about RLEP-2 was that it >was in serious trouble because of cost and was going to be sharply >cut back. > >If our NASA host spacecraft will take care of all the housekeeping >and provided free power, then a low cost transponder sounds like >something we can do (although AMSAT-NA currently does not have >a satellite lab--we may need to contract out the transponder work). >We just need to understand we will not have control of the on/off >switch (the repeater on the ISS or the Planetary Society's >microphone on the Mars Phoenix lander for example). > >The days of getting a free launch is over, and it is too bad the Intelsat >ride share idea did not pan out for us. As I have said before, I am >not opposed to a transponder on the moon, I just have a lot of >unanswered questions. > >Thanks again to the dedicated few at AMSAT that make things happen. > >Armando, N8IGJ > > > > > > >>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 18:14:59 -0700 (PDT) >>From: MM >>Subject: [amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO >>To: amsat-bb@amsat.org >>Message-ID: <228402.31352...@web56404.mail.re3.yahoo.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> >> > > > >High orbit launch prices > > > >>I can?t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into >>the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the >>flight >and navigation and just tag along for the ride. >> >> > >___ >Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. >Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.3/2216 - Release Date: 07/03/09 >05:53:00 > > > ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
Sometimes it pays to go on vacation (600+ back e-mail). The lunar link analysis has been done on Amsat-bb at least 4 or 5 times in the last ten years. I have a spreadsheet program that can be used for any point to point communication in space (plug in your own numbers) http://www.kl7uw.com/MROCalc.xls Since we assume to ride to the Moon with NASA (manned flight) it could be buried on the Moon with only antenna exposed (solves some of the temperature and radiation issues). Make it the emergency comm system for the astronauts like ARISS provides on the ISS (selling point to NASA). Make it a digital passband or multi-channel system. NOT a single-channel FM repeater like AO-51 (consider have the world's hams trying to use that channel at the same time!). Microwave only make sense. Maybe use the CC-rider concept from Eagle. Now it has Emcomm potential. as well. With the 2.5 second RTLT time delay text modes make more sense. Digital voice at minimum. 30 to 50w uplink transmitter would do it (play with the calculator, above). Try for 2-foot dish on the earth station. Moon gravity is 1/6 earth and no wind (light weight dish will work). Or perhaps a electronically steared panel array. Auto-tracking by carrier from NASA DSN tracking network (let them have 3-4 channels exclusive use). 73, Ed - KL7UW At 08:43 PM 7/2/2009, Greg D. wrote: >Hi Kenneth, et al, > >Would this be a good opportunity to dust off the >low data rate digital package that was planned >for Eagle? If I recall, it was to be >multi-service and operate at relatively low s/n >levels. Replace the antennas, of course, and >the radio power amps. The resulting Earth >station should still be quite affordable. > >Just a thought, > >Greg KO6TH > > > > From: kenneth.g.ran...@nasa.gov > > To: ka1...@yahoo.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org > > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 21:29:47 -0500 > > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO > > > > I realize this is still very early in the > dreaming stage but it would be nice to start > seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about > starting with a blank worksheet that outlines > the desirements and requirements. This would > give folks some specifics to address. > > > > *LUNAR System* > > Modulation type: > > Mode: > > Power source: > > Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band): > > Lunar TX antenna (type and gain): > > Lunar receiver (type and band): > > Lunar RX antenna (type and gain): > > Lunar controller (type and capability): > > > > Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched: > > Length of time the system is expected to operate: > > Periods that the system is expected to be available for use: > > > > Once you have some general ideas as to what > the items are then you will have a good idea of > the total weight, size and what it will cost to > buy, build and certify for spaceflight. It > would also be nice to know what sort of station > equipment would be needed to use this lunar system. > > > > *EARTH Station* > > Description of minimal Earth station capable > of operation through above mentioned lunar system: > > Transmitter (type, output power and band): > > TX antenna (type and gain): > > Receiver (type and band): > > RX antenna (type and gain): > > Antenna tracking system: > > > > The above should allow for a realistic guess > at the number of users willing to and capable of operating through the system. > > > > Kenneth > > > > From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org > [amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of MM [ka1...@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:14 PM > > To: amsat-bb@amsat.org > > Subject: [amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO > > > > High orbit launch prices > > > > It is hard to find exact values for the price > per kilo to a geo-stationery orbit. I did find > a few old numbers on the web suggesting that > around the year 2000 prices were approximately > 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo. I can only > assume it will cost more todays 2009 > dollars. If we were to build our own > Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep > the weight down to the same weight of AO-40 > (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD > million in launching fees (plus > inflation). That is not including the cost of > the satellite. A ballpark Geo-stationary > amateur radio satellite and launching fees > would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG). > > > > If you have an extra 40 million kicking > around then go ahead and build us a Geo > s
