Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-24 Thread Bas Scheffers
Andrew Piskorski said:
 Btw, if Sun really does follow through and open-source Solaris like
 they've said they will, it should be interesting to see what sort of
 cross-fertilization of ideas and techniques may go on between the
 Solaris and Linux worlds.
Only to close-source it again a year or two later and then blackmail all
Linux users for a license? Where have I heard that one before!? ;-)

Bas.


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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-24 Thread Francesco P. Lovergine
On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 10:28:17AM -0500, Elliott Phil Civ AFMSA/SGSID wrote:
 Just to let you know: The backend in this case is a Sun F6800 w/ 12 cpu, 12
 GB RAM running Sol8.  When I get a chance I'm thinking of a fronted box with
 each of the OS platforms hitting the backend. (all of this in my spare time,
 LOL)--Phil


Another DD in his spare time installed debian on a E1, so I think
you could do that with a minimal hacking.

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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-24 Thread Barry Books
Your numbers are very interesting. I've been telling people Sun
hardware is just as fast but cheaper and they look at me like I've got
3 eyes or something.
v240  2 processor 2 gig ram 2 x 73 gig drives Solaris 9 $6895 1747 c/s
Compaq DL 360 2 processor 2 gig ram 2 x 73 gig drives Redhat AS 2.1
$7405 1835 c/s
On the low end I run Sun X1's off ebay for $400 or the V100 for $995.
Even if they only manage 1% of the v240 numbers that's 17 c/s. More
than enough for development and most sites.
The Sun is a 64 bit machine and has LOM so you can manage it completely
from the serial port. I've never used Compaq. Can you power it up and
install it without being there?
Not that is matters but did you test the 1 gig or 1.28 gig Sun box. the
1.28 just came out. Also in that config the v210 would be $4945 with
the 1 gig processors. Basically $2500 cheaper than the Compaq and
within 10% of the performance.
Given the variability  of benchmarks I'd call it a dead heat in
performance and  price/performance. It's really more which you'd rather
use. I personally think you need a 64bit box to run a database and I'd
rather have all Sun than mix Solaris and Linux.
I would like to see Xserve numbers. I have run the Xraid and it's very
impressive
Barry
On Jun 23, 2004, at 6:58 PM, Adam Leff wrote:
Sure. I think the Ops guys there might still have an Xserve laying
around.
He's right... we do.  I'm still not sure if it's ever been turned on.
;)
The bigger question is what the bench marks would be exactly.
Bingo.
It all depends on the application.  Most of the testing that's done on
webservers is *usually* how it deals under duress serving static
pages... yes, there are dynamic testing benchmarks out there.
There are so many flippin' ways we use AOLserver just at AOL that it's
completely unfair to say that AOLserver X.X is better on Solaris than
it is on Linux.  You have to take so many things into consideration
(external dependencies, databases, compilation options, OS tuning
parameters).  Comparing AOLserver as used by AOL.com to AOLserver as
used by Moviefone.com or even AOLserver as a backend application layer
isn't fair.  So that's why we do our best to test each application and
its dependencies.  Sadly, usually the testing is done after the
hardware is purchased.  Yay for compressed timeframes.
But then again, the prices of x86 hardware (and the associated support
contracts) make executives happy. :)
That being said, I did a test a little bit ago slamming the begeezus
out of an .adp page with a bunch of ns_adp_puts in it (so I was
exercising the Tcl interpreters, not just the fastpath stuff) on a few
platforms:
Sun Fire V240,   Solaris 9, AOLserver 3.5.10: 1871 conns/sec
Sun Fire V240,   Solaris 9, AOLserver 4.0.1:  1747 conns/sec
Compaq DL 360,   RH AS 2.1, AOLserver 3.5.10: 1880 conns/sec
Compaq DL 360,   RH AS 2.1, AOLserver 4.0.1:  1835 conns/sec
Compaq Proliant, RH AS 3.0, AOLserver 3.5.10: 2220 conns/sec
Compaq Proliant, RH AS 3.0, AOLserver 4.0.1:  2256 conns/sec
As predicted, Red Hat Advanced Server 3.0 came out on top, most likely
due to NPTL.  The boxes were all hovering between 60-80% CPU
utilization...  network saturated.
~Adam

Adam Leff
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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-24 Thread Bas Scheffers
Barry Books said:
 v240  2 processor 2 gig ram 2 x 73 gig drives Solaris 9 $6895 1747 c/s
 Compaq DL 360 2 processor 2 gig ram 2 x 73 gig drives Redhat AS 2.1
 $7405 1835 c/s
The term DL360 as absolutely useless to identify the hardware in the
machine. I bought a truckload of them in 2000 and they were mostly single
933GHz P3s. The current models have 1 or 2 3.2 GHz Xeons, so that
comparison isn't fair untill we see what hardware was actualy used!

 from the serial port. I've never used Compaq. Can you power it up and
 install it without being there?
Newer models come with LOM integrated, not sure how well it works, though.
But not as nice as Sun. At an ISP I worked, all we did was put them on the
management network, added their MAC to the setup server and told which
disk config to use for that MAC, turned it on, waited a while et voila,
standard build ready to go.

 Given the variability  of benchmarks I'd call it a dead heat in
Not so fast, first see what is really in those boxes!

In any case, with Intel, you have the option of going dirt cheap and get
redundancy in numbers. This isn't a good strategy if all you need for your
app is one fast server and one for fail over. But once you get to the
point where you need, say, 10 of them, each of which is allowed to fail at
any time, you can just buy yourself some motherboards, CPUs, memory and
IDE drives and stick em in a cheap rackmount case. Those are cheap enough
to have some spares and you won't have to pay for 24x7x4 support either...

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Sun at all; I love their boxes. And I
know they are faster-per-Hz than their Intel-based counterparts. But I
don't believe they are as good value as you say they are!

Bas.


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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-24 Thread Adam Leff
On Jun 24, 2004, at 09:52, Barry Books wrote:
The Sun is a 64 bit machine and has LOM so you can manage it completely
from the serial port. I've never used Compaq. Can you power it up and
install it without being there?
The Proliants have a pretty nice management interface that allows you
to power-up/down, etc... the console redirection is really bad though.
They have something called the management pass-thru that's not too
bad, but you can't see the entire boot-up process.
The serial on the DL 360s we have is not too bad, but Sun so far is
pretty superior in that aspect.
We have a team that handles the imaging of our machines before they're
passed to us, so we don't really have a need for remote network
installs.
Not that is matters but did you test the 1 gig or 1.28 gig Sun box. the
1.28 just came out. Also in that config the v210 would be $4945 with
the 1 gig processors. Basically $2500 cheaper than the Compaq and
within 10% of the performance.
I did neglect to mention the box configuration in my first email.  My
bad.
The Sun V240 is a 2x1Ghz UltraSparcIIIi running Sol9... I didn't have a
1.28Ghz box available at the time I was doing the tests.  The DL 360 is
a 2x2.8Ghz Xeon.  The Proliant is a 2x3.2Ghz Xeon.  All with 2 GB of
RAM.  So yes, you could argue that the Proliant results are possible
skewed because of the difference in processor speed.
That wasn't the question we were trying to answer though...  we wanted
to find out whether we could get the same performance out of a Linux
2x2 that we currently get out of a Sun 2x2... in the front-end
applications that we tested, the answer was yes.  That's certainly not
ALWAYS the case... but in our findings it was true.  I didn't do any
scale testing on databases or other backend apps of that nature.
~Adam

Adam Leff
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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-24 Thread Bas Scheffers
Adam Leff said:
 The Sun V240 is a 2x1Ghz UltraSparcIIIi running Sol9... I didn't have a
 1.28Ghz box available at the time I was doing the tests.  The DL 360 is
 a 2x2.8Ghz Xeon.  The Proliant is a 2x3.2Ghz Xeon.  All with 2 GB of
Wow, that's closer than I thought! Mind you, you can get a 2x
3.2GHz/2GB/2x73GB15K machine for a lot less from Dell than from HP/Compaq.

But in the end, I guess when you buy brands, it doesn't seem to matter
much in price if you go with Sun or any other. I wonder if these 1GHz Suns
also need less juice and stay cooler. Not an unimportant consideration;
apperantly Google settled on 1GHz machines for their Ireland data centre
for that same reason as they could fit more machines in and thus have more
CPU power in total.

 RAM.  So yes, you could argue that the Proliant results are possible
 skewed because of the difference in processor speed.
And cache? That 2.8 probably has 512K, the 3.2 likely 1MB, possibly 2.

Bas.


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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-24 Thread Barry Books
It supprised me also. I had switched to Intel because of cost but lately I've switch 
back to Sun. It would be interesting to compare numbers between a Compaq and Dell. You 
would think they would be similar but I think there is a great deal of difference 
between a $400 2.8 gig P4 and an $800 2.8 gig P4. I did switch from Dell to Sun, but I 
never did any detailed beachmarking. My informal testing made me think the Sun was as 
fast or faster.

I've run on Intel (Windows and Linux), OSX and Sun. The great thing about AOLServer is 
you can switch platforms with very little effort. I've even developed on Sun and 
deployed on Windows with no problems.

I did look up the wattage on the Sun and Compaq and they are similar. I suspect the 
Sparc chip uses less power but by the time you run the rest of the stuff inside the 
machine there is not much difference. The X1/V100's are a different story. I think 
they use around 30 watts, but it probably takes 5 to 10 of them to equal a v240.

Whatever you pick take a look at the Apple Xraid. 3.5 terabytes and fibre channel for 
10K is a good deal and they work just fine with a v240 and Solaris. I even used 
Apple's fibre channel card in the Sun box. Rumor has it they also work with Linux. Not 
only are the cheap per gig I think they beat scsi on performance because for the same 
price you can get nearly 3x the number of spindles while scsi only has 2x the rotation 
speed.

Barry

On Thursday, June 24, 2004, at 02:04PM, Bas Scheffers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Adam Leff said:
 The Sun V240 is a 2x1Ghz UltraSparcIIIi running Sol9... I didn't have a
 1.28Ghz box available at the time I was doing the tests.  The DL 360 is
 a 2x2.8Ghz Xeon.  The Proliant is a 2x3.2Ghz Xeon.  All with 2 GB of
Wow, that's closer than I thought! Mind you, you can get a 2x
3.2GHz/2GB/2x73GB15K machine for a lot less from Dell than from HP/Compaq.

But in the end, I guess when you buy brands, it doesn't seem to matter
much in price if you go with Sun or any other. I wonder if these 1GHz Suns
also need less juice and stay cooler. Not an unimportant consideration;
apperantly Google settled on 1GHz machines for their Ireland data centre
for that same reason as they could fit more machines in and thus have more
CPU power in total.

 RAM.  So yes, you could argue that the Proliant results are possible
 skewed because of the difference in processor speed.
And cache? That 2.8 probably has 512K, the 3.2 likely 1MB, possibly 2.

Bas.


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[AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-23 Thread Elliott Phil Civ AFMSA/SGSID
You guys and gals have way to much fun...that's great!  Keep up the good
work!

Questions:

1) Has anyone noticed what platform (be it Wintel, Linux, Solaris, etc, etc)
that AOLSERVER performs better that the others?

2) Has anyone noticed that a particular component on a certain platform
performs better or worse than another?

I ask these two q's as I've been playing with AOLSvr on several platforms
(realizing that the OS's have vast differences in handling load).  I'm
toying with the front-end being on Wintel with the backend ODB (Illustra,
etc) running on a healthy-sized Unix machine.  -Phil

-Original Message-
From: AOLserver Discussion [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Dossy
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 4:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] TclX keyed list changes in HEAD


On 2004.06.22, Zoran Vasiljevic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Anyways, the compatibilty layer for following old calls has been done:

   Tcl_GetKeyedListKeys
   Tcl_GetKeyedListField
   Tcl_SetKeyedListField
   Tcl_DeleteKeyedListField

Great, thanks.  I'll follow up with folks inside AOL and see if their
modules work again.

-- Dossy


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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-23 Thread Dossy
On 2004.06.23, Elliott Phil Civ AFMSA/SGSID [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 1) Has anyone noticed what platform (be it Wintel, Linux, Solaris,
 etc, etc) that AOLSERVER performs better that the others?

I think Win32 performs the worst simply because AOLserver code doesn't
exploit the more advanced Win32 features available.

Comparing Solaris on SPARC to either Win32 or Linux on x86 isn't really
a fair comparison since the architectures are quite different -- a
low-end Linux box may well outperform a low-end SPARC box (think:
Celeron vs. Ultra2, etc.) but the clock speeds of the CPUs are way
different: a 900 MHz Celeron can be had for pennies while a 450 MHz CPU
for an Ultra2 is considered fast.  A cheap Ultra1 will likely have a
170 MHz CPU, but still probably perform as well as that 900 MHz Celeron
x86.  Or, maybe not -- I haven't actually done or seen actual
benchmarks.

Good question ... and I'd love to see some objective measuremens to try
and answer them.

-- Dossy

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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-23 Thread Nathan Folkman
Don't forget Mac OS X... ;-)

- Nathan

Dossy wrote on 6/23/04, 10:32 AM:

  Good question ... and I'd love to see some objective measuremens to try
  and answer them.


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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-23 Thread Francesco P. Lovergine
On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 10:32:32AM -0400, Dossy wrote:

 Comparing Solaris on SPARC to either Win32 or Linux on x86 isn't really
 a fair comparison since the architectures are quite different -- a
 low-end Linux box may well outperform a low-end SPARC box (think:
 Celeron vs. Ultra2, etc.) but the clock speeds of the CPUs are way
 different: a 900 MHz Celeron can be had for pennies while a 450 MHz CPU
 for an Ultra2 is considered fast.  A cheap Ultra1 will likely have a
 170 MHz CPU, but still probably perform as well as that 900 MHz Celeron
 x86.  Or, maybe not -- I haven't actually done or seen actual
 benchmarks.


Oh well, comparing a Linux/SPARC with a Solaris/SPARC on the same
boxi _does_ have sense. I'm quite sure that a Linux with 2.6 kernel
should perform better than Solaris. I suspect the same could be
also with 2.4, but I'm not so sure, due to multi-threading
architecture of aolserver.
The same comparison could be done for Linux/x86 vs Solaris/x86.
But I'm also quite sure who is the winner. Slowlaris is
very slw on x86.


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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-23 Thread Dossy
On 2004.06.23, Nathan Folkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Don't forget Mac OS X... ;-)

PPC Linux vs Mac OS X on the G4/G5 platform?

-- Dossy

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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-23 Thread Andrew Piskorski
On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 10:32:32AM -0400, Dossy wrote:

 Comparing Solaris on SPARC to either Win32 or Linux on x86 isn't really
 a fair comparison since the architectures are quite different -- a
 low-end Linux box may well outperform a low-end SPARC box (think:
 Celeron vs. Ultra2, etc.) but the clock speeds of the CPUs are way
 different: a 900 MHz Celeron can be had for pennies while a 450 MHz CPU
 for an Ultra2 is considered fast.  A cheap Ultra1 will likely have a

Practically speaking, I can't imagine why anyone would actually care
about those distinctions.  The fact of the matter seems to be that for
almost everybody, for a given amount of money, x86 hardware is going
to give you a whole lot more performance than Sparc hardware.  (And
that using Solaris rather than Linux doesn't provide any performance
advantages, either.)

Now, if there are any major exceptions to that, that would be
interesting.  (At a guess, I rather doubt it, at least when it comes
to running AOLserver.)  And even then, the only people this would
REALLY matter to are folks running large websites with many multiple
front-end web server machines.  Folks like AOL, in other words.  Don't
your operations people know?

FWIW, several years back, the Bitkeeper guys happened to do some
limited apples-to-apples Solaris vs. Linux performance comparisons:
Solaris x86 and Linux on identical x86 hardware, and Solaris and Linux
on identical Sparc hardware.  They cautioned that this was NOT in any
way a representative benchmark, is was just some informal tests of how
some of their Bitkeeper code performed, but their results were
interesting:  Linux had a 5x speed advantage over Solaris.

At the time, McVoy (formerly a Solaris kernel hacker himself)
attributed this as likely due to Solaris locking overhead.  All that
really proved, of course, was that (at least back then), Solaris CAN
be dramatically slower than Linux, under some conditions.  And by
extension, that operating system, surprisingly to many, CAN sometimes
impose very noticeable performance differences.

Btw, if Sun really does follow through and open-source Solaris like
they've said they will, it should be interesting to see what sort of
cross-fertilization of ideas and techniques may go on between the
Solaris and Linux worlds.

--
Andrew Piskorski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.piskorski.com/


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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-23 Thread Elliott Phil Civ AFMSA/SGSID
Just to let you know: The backend in this case is a Sun F6800 w/ 12 cpu, 12
GB RAM running Sol8.  When I get a chance I'm thinking of a fronted box with
each of the OS platforms hitting the backend. (all of this in my spare time,
LOL)--Phil

-Original Message-
From: AOLserver Discussion [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Francesco P. Lovergine
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 9:57 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject..


On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 10:32:32AM -0400, Dossy wrote:

 Comparing Solaris on SPARC to either Win32 or Linux on x86 isn't
 really a fair comparison since the architectures are quite different
 -- a low-end Linux box may well outperform a low-end SPARC box (think:
 Celeron vs. Ultra2, etc.) but the clock speeds of the CPUs are way
 different: a 900 MHz Celeron can be had for pennies while a 450 MHz
 CPU for an Ultra2 is considered fast.  A cheap Ultra1 will likely have
 a 170 MHz CPU, but still probably perform as well as that 900 MHz
 Celeron x86.  Or, maybe not -- I haven't actually done or seen actual
 benchmarks.


Oh well, comparing a Linux/SPARC with a Solaris/SPARC on the same boxi
_does_ have sense. I'm quite sure that a Linux with 2.6 kernel should
perform better than Solaris. I suspect the same could be also with 2.4, but
I'm not so sure, due to multi-threading architecture of aolserver. The same
comparison could be done for Linux/x86 vs Solaris/x86. But I'm also quite
sure who is the winner. Slowlaris is very slw on x86.


--
Francesco P. Lovergine


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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-23 Thread Patrick O'Leary
I'm that close to getting it to work on Win 3.11 ;-)

Dossy wrote on 23/06/2004, 16:22:

  On 2004.06.23, Nathan Folkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Don't forget Mac OS X... ;-)
 
  PPC Linux vs Mac OS X on the G4/G5 platform?
 
  -- Dossy
 
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Re: [AOLSERVER] A slight change of subject......

2004-06-23 Thread Adam Leff
Sure. I think the Ops guys there might still have an Xserve laying
around.
He's right... we do.  I'm still not sure if it's ever been turned on. ;)
The bigger question is what the bench marks would be exactly.
Bingo.
It all depends on the application.  Most of the testing that's done on
webservers is *usually* how it deals under duress serving static
pages... yes, there are dynamic testing benchmarks out there.
There are so many flippin' ways we use AOLserver just at AOL that it's
completely unfair to say that AOLserver X.X is better on Solaris than
it is on Linux.  You have to take so many things into consideration
(external dependencies, databases, compilation options, OS tuning
parameters).  Comparing AOLserver as used by AOL.com to AOLserver as
used by Moviefone.com or even AOLserver as a backend application layer
isn't fair.  So that's why we do our best to test each application and
its dependencies.  Sadly, usually the testing is done after the
hardware is purchased.  Yay for compressed timeframes.
But then again, the prices of x86 hardware (and the associated support
contracts) make executives happy. :)
That being said, I did a test a little bit ago slamming the begeezus
out of an .adp page with a bunch of ns_adp_puts in it (so I was
exercising the Tcl interpreters, not just the fastpath stuff) on a few
platforms:
Sun Fire V240,   Solaris 9, AOLserver 3.5.10: 1871 conns/sec
Sun Fire V240,   Solaris 9, AOLserver 4.0.1:  1747 conns/sec
Compaq DL 360,   RH AS 2.1, AOLserver 3.5.10: 1880 conns/sec
Compaq DL 360,   RH AS 2.1, AOLserver 4.0.1:  1835 conns/sec
Compaq Proliant, RH AS 3.0, AOLserver 3.5.10: 2220 conns/sec
Compaq Proliant, RH AS 3.0, AOLserver 4.0.1:  2256 conns/sec
As predicted, Red Hat Advanced Server 3.0 came out on top, most likely
due to NPTL.  The boxes were all hovering between 60-80% CPU
utilization...  network saturated.
~Adam

Adam Leff
AOL Web Operations
--
AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/
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