Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Tino Didriksen]

On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 at 16:27, Francis Tyers  wrote:

> El 2020-09-23 15:03, Jonathan Washington escribió:
> > One other question:
> >
> > Will it be possible to move existing apertium-stuff (and PMC, etc)
> > archives to the new location?  Or would we be starting over with those
> > archives?
> >
>
> I think the PMC list is a distribution list, not a mailing list, so we
> don't have archives.
>

I've thought about that before, when writing the Bylaws proposal. Several
of us have years worth of emails with to: or cc: the PMC that we can easily
export to an mbox and import to mailman.

-- Tino Didriksen
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Xavi Ivars]

At Softcatalà we've used mailman for years, and we haven't had any problem
so far.

We're actually rethinking our mailing list strategy: we've moved a lot of
conversation to specific Telegram groups, etc.

But if the concern to self-host it is maintenance, is not *that hard*.

Missatge de Daniel Swanson  del dia dc., 23 de
set. 2020 a les 16:45:

> https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/documentation/Mailing List Archives/
>
> It looks like at least exporting them is possible.
>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 9:40 AM Francis Tyers  wrote:
>
>> El 2020-09-23 15:03, Jonathan Washington escribió:
>> > One other question:
>> >
>> > Will it be possible to move existing apertium-stuff (and PMC, etc)
>> > archives to the new location?  Or would we be starting over with those
>> > archives?
>> >
>>
>> I think the PMC list is a distribution list, not a mailing list, so we
>> don't have archives.
>>
>> And in terms of the archives. I doubt it, but perhaps SourceForge has
>> a way to export them...
>>
>> Fran
>>
>>
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-- 
< Xavi Ivars >
< http://xavi.ivars.me >
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Daniel Swanson]

https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/documentation/Mailing List Archives/

It looks like at least exporting them is possible.

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 9:40 AM Francis Tyers  wrote:

> El 2020-09-23 15:03, Jonathan Washington escribió:
> > One other question:
> >
> > Will it be possible to move existing apertium-stuff (and PMC, etc)
> > archives to the new location?  Or would we be starting over with those
> > archives?
> >
>
> I think the PMC list is a distribution list, not a mailing list, so we
> don't have archives.
>
> And in terms of the archives. I doubt it, but perhaps SourceForge has
> a way to export them...
>
> Fran
>
>
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Francis Tyers]

El 2020-09-23 15:03, Jonathan Washington escribió:

One other question:

Will it be possible to move existing apertium-stuff (and PMC, etc)
archives to the new location?  Or would we be starting over with those
archives?



I think the PMC list is a distribution list, not a mailing list, so we
don't have archives.

And in terms of the archives. I doubt it, but perhaps SourceForge has
a way to export them...

Fran


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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Jonathan Washington]

One other question:

Will it be possible to move existing apertium-stuff (and PMC, etc) archives
to the new location?  Or would we be starting over with those archives?

--
Jonathan

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 10:15 Francis Tyers  wrote:

> El 2020-09-21 15:07, Tino Didriksen escribió:
> > On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 10:10, Kevin Brubeck Unhammer
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> Considering the trouble people have just setting up their own e-mail
> >> server without getting constantly spam-listed by other people's
> >> Gmail
> >> accounts – and the fact that the mailing lists are supposed to be
> >> public
> >> anyway – it'd be nice to have a third party host our mailing
> >> lists.
> >
> > We have at least 2 private mailing lists: PMC and GSoC mentors. The
> > PMC list we absolutely should run ourselves on our own server(s) for
> > confidentiality reasons, and better so that future PMC members can
> > actually refer to the archives. GSoC lists are per year, but no less
> > confidential.
> >
> > So if we're going to run mailman or whatever for those, we might as
> > well run it for all of them - with appropriate public mirrors for the
> > relevant lists. We could even run the Sourcehut software, if it's that
> > good.
> >
> > But yes, it is annoying to run your own MTA. There's unfortunately a
> > lot of email providers that blacklists IPs for rather annoying and bad
> > reasons. But the wiki already sends mail from the apertium.org [1]
> > server, so we know that works.
> >
>
> The Wiki is a single email and often doesn't work.
>
> I think the internal lists don't run mailman, they're just distribution
> lists.
>
> And agree that a lot of email providers are rubbish about people running
> their own MTAs.
>
> Fran
>
>
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Francis Tyers]

El 2020-09-21 15:07, Tino Didriksen escribió:

On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 10:10, Kevin Brubeck Unhammer
 wrote:


Considering the trouble people have just setting up their own e-mail
server without getting constantly spam-listed by other people's
Gmail
accounts – and the fact that the mailing lists are supposed to be
public
anyway – it'd be nice to have a third party host our mailing
lists.


We have at least 2 private mailing lists: PMC and GSoC mentors. The
PMC list we absolutely should run ourselves on our own server(s) for
confidentiality reasons, and better so that future PMC members can
actually refer to the archives. GSoC lists are per year, but no less
confidential.

So if we're going to run mailman or whatever for those, we might as
well run it for all of them - with appropriate public mirrors for the
relevant lists. We could even run the Sourcehut software, if it's that
good.

But yes, it is annoying to run your own MTA. There's unfortunately a
lot of email providers that blacklists IPs for rather annoying and bad
reasons. But the wiki already sends mail from the apertium.org [1]
server, so we know that works.



The Wiki is a single email and often doesn't work.

I think the internal lists don't run mailman, they're just distribution 
lists.


And agree that a lot of email providers are rubbish about people running
their own MTAs.

Fran


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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Tino Didriksen]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 10:10, Kevin Brubeck Unhammer 
wrote:

> Considering the trouble people have just setting up their own e-mail
> server without getting constantly spam-listed by other people's Gmail
> accounts – and the fact that the mailing lists are supposed to be public
> anyway – it'd be nice to have a third party host our mailing lists.
>

We have at least 2 private mailing lists: PMC and GSoC mentors. The PMC
list we absolutely should run ourselves on our own server(s) for
confidentiality reasons, and better so that future PMC members can actually
refer to the archives. GSoC lists are per year, but no less confidential.

So if we're going to run mailman or whatever for those, we might as well
run it for all of them - with appropriate public mirrors for the relevant
lists. We could even run the Sourcehut software, if it's that good.

But yes, it is annoying to run your own MTA. There's unfortunately a lot of
email providers that blacklists IPs for rather annoying and bad reasons.
But the wiki already sends mail from the apertium.org server, so we know
that works.

-- Tino Didriksen
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Francis Tyers]

El 2020-09-21 11:13, Flammie A Pirinen escribió:

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 07:44:25PM -0700, Samuel Sloniker wrote:

I've also thought about the possibility of a forum?


Forums can be nice but I think have different function than mailing
list..


Discourse looks nice.



Is this discourse.mozilla.org? I really dislike that, last I was forced
to move bug report from github issues to discourse and it manaaged to 
be

worse than github issue for discussing.



Agree, I think if you are big and have a lot of non-technical people 
doing

support, like Mozilla, then probably Discourse is good. But for Apertium
I'm not sure it makes sense.

As far as I understand there isn't good IRC/Matrix integration, and 
ideally

we'd like to see that.

Fran


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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Tino Didriksen]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 12:13, Flammie A Pirinen  wrote:

> > Discourse looks nice.
> >
>
> Is this discourse.mozilla.org? I really dislike that, last I was forced
> to move bug report from github issues to discourse and it manaaged to be
> worse than github issue for discussing.
>

Mozilla runs a Discourse service, but the underlying software is
https://github.com/discourse/discourse - it can function as a mailing list
manager.

I strongly dislike the Discourse look'n'feel. The underlying software may
be good, but every time I run across a community that uses Discourse, I
dread interacting with it.

-- Tino Didriksen
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Flammie A Pirinen]

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 07:44:25PM -0700, Samuel Sloniker wrote:
> I've also thought about the possibility of a forum?

Forums can be nice but I think have different function than mailing
list..

> Discourse looks nice.
> 

Is this discourse.mozilla.org? I really dislike that, last I was forced
to move bug report from github issues to discourse and it manaaged to be
worse than github issue for discussing.

-- 
Regards, Flammie 
(Please note, that I will often include my replies inline instead of
top or bottom of the mail)


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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Kevin Brubeck Unhammer]

Francis Tyers  čálii:

> Sourcehut is a free/open-source "forge" type thing run by Drew
> DeVault. They have
> mailing lists.
>
> Our current mailing lists are with SourceForge and all of the terrible
> stuff that
> goes with that.
>
> Here is a link:
>
> https://lists.sr.ht/
>
> What do people think?

+1. I have a very good impression of Sourcehut. The code for their own
site is available, they publish their own financial reports, they work
without javascript, there's no tracking, the guy running it seems
trustworthy.

Considering the trouble people have just setting up their own e-mail
server without getting constantly spam-listed by other people's Gmail
accounts – and the fact that the mailing lists are supposed to be public
anyway – it'd be nice to have a third party host our mailing lists.


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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Samuel Sloniker]

I've also thought about the possibility of a forum? Discourse looks nice.

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 19:11 Flammie A Pirinen  wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 06:04:35PM +0100, Francis Tyers wrote:
> > Sourcehut is a free/open-source "forge" type thing run by Drew DeVault.
> They
> > have
> > mailing lists.
> > [...]
> > What do people think?
>
> Excellent idea. One suggestion I have is to make sure they get archived
> as well as usable through e.g. gmane. Smaller services and self-hosted
> lists can sometimes totally disappear from the internet..
>
> --
> Regards, Flammie 
> (Please note, that I will often include my replies inline instead of
> top or bottom of the mail)
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Flammie A Pirinen]

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 06:04:35PM +0100, Francis Tyers wrote:
> Sourcehut is a free/open-source "forge" type thing run by Drew DeVault. They
> have
> mailing lists.
> [...] 
> What do people think?

Excellent idea. One suggestion I have is to make sure they get archived
as well as usable through e.g. gmane. Smaller services and self-hosted
lists can sometimes totally disappear from the internet..

-- 
Regards, Flammie 
(Please note, that I will often include my replies inline instead of
top or bottom of the mail)


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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[keld]

hi

I have run mailing lists for about 30 years,
and i am willing to run a mailman service for apertium

keld 

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 08:10:04PM +0100, Francis Tyers wrote:
> El 2020-09-20 20:03, Tino Didriksen escribió:
> >We could host our own lists and other groupware. No reason to
> >outsource it, and it would give 100% control.
> >
> >-- Tino Didriksen
> >
> >On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 at 19:04, Francis Tyers 
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Sourcehut is a free/open-source "forge" type thing run by Drew
> >>DeVault.
> >>They have
> >>mailing lists.
> >>
> >>Our current mailing lists are with SourceForge and all of the
> >>terrible
> >>stuff that
> >>goes with that.
> >>
> >>Here is a link:
> >>
> >>https://lists.sr.ht/
> >>
> >>What do people think?
> >>
> 
> I don't mind either way, but bagsie not sysadmin.
> 
> Fran
> 
> 
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Francis Tyers]

El 2020-09-20 20:03, Tino Didriksen escribió:

We could host our own lists and other groupware. No reason to
outsource it, and it would give 100% control.

-- Tino Didriksen

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 at 19:04, Francis Tyers 
wrote:


Sourcehut is a free/open-source "forge" type thing run by Drew
DeVault.
They have
mailing lists.

Our current mailing lists are with SourceForge and all of the
terrible
stuff that
goes with that.

Here is a link:

https://lists.sr.ht/

What do people think?



I don't mind either way, but bagsie not sysadmin.

Fran


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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Tino Didriksen]

We could host our own lists and other groupware. No reason to outsource it,
and it would give 100% control.

-- Tino Didriksen


On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 at 19:04, Francis Tyers  wrote:

> Sourcehut is a free/open-source "forge" type thing run by Drew DeVault.
> They have
> mailing lists.
>
> Our current mailing lists are with SourceForge and all of the terrible
> stuff that
> goes with that.
>
> Here is a link:
>
> https://lists.sr.ht/
>
> What do people think?
>
> Fran
>
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Samuel Sloniker]

Could/would we self-host?
The ToS say: "You must obey all local and US laws in the course of using
the service."

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 11:02 AM Francis Tyers  wrote:

> El 2020-09-20 18:46, Mikel L. Forcada escribió:
> > Fran:
> >
> > could you be more specific about the "terrible stuff"?
> >
> > I understand there is no mailing list as such in GitHub, or is there?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Mikel
> >
>
> Terrible stuff:
>
> - Can't subscribe using email, can only subscribe through the web
> interface,
>which invites users to sign up for sourceforge spam... e.g. sending
> "subscribe" to
>apertium-stuff@lists.sourceforge.net doesn't work.
>
> - The list archives are quite ugly
>
> There aren't mailing lists on GitHub unfortunately.
>
> Fran
>
>
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Francis Tyers]

El 2020-09-20 18:46, Mikel L. Forcada escribió:

Fran:

could you be more specific about the "terrible stuff"?

I understand there is no mailing list as such in GitHub, or is there?

Cheers

Mikel



Terrible stuff:

- Can't subscribe using email, can only subscribe through the web 
interface,
  which invites users to sign up for sourceforge spam... e.g. sending 
"subscribe" to

  apertium-stuff@lists.sourceforge.net doesn't work.

- The list archives are quite ugly

There aren't mailing lists on GitHub unfortunately.

Fran


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Re: [Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Mikel L. Forcada]

Fran:

could you be more specific about the "terrible stuff"?

I understand there is no mailing list as such in GitHub, or is there?

Cheers

Mikel


El 20/9/20 a les 19:04, Francis Tyers ha escrit:
Our current mailing lists are with SourceForge and all of the terrible 
stuff that
goes with that. 



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[Apertium-stuff] let's move the mailing lists to sourcehut

[Francis Tyers]

Sourcehut is a free/open-source "forge" type thing run by Drew DeVault. 
They have

mailing lists.

Our current mailing lists are with SourceForge and all of the terrible 
stuff that

goes with that.

Here is a link:

https://lists.sr.ht/

What do people think?

Fran


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