Re: Apple-Crop: Medical question

[Bill Shoemaker]

ConI should tell you about my friend who had a genetic respiratory 
disease, cystic fibrosis. As he became an adult he developed fungal infections 
in his lung, including aflatoxin. It was very difficult to address and 
contributed to his eventual decline and death. These infections can be 
difficult to diagnose and just as difficult to address. I'd suggest searching 
for information on treatment of cystic fibrosis patients for fungal infections. 
The reason they become infected is much the same as your friend. Best wishes 
for a positive outcome Con.Bill> > > RE: Apple-Crop: 
Biennial Bearing > > > > > Hello all, > I have the 
unfortunate task of asking you what might turn out to be a life and death 
question.  any help at all would be better than nothing. > Best wishes, > 
Con Traas > The Apple Farm > Ireland > ++353-52-41459 >   > > 
> 
William H. Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

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Re: Apple-Crop: Horticultural Students are in Dwindling Numbers

[Bill Shoemaker]

KurtIn Illinois our horticulture enrollments actually fare better 
than agronomy or dairy, but they have still declined. But in the last few years 
they seem to have stabilized. I suspect it has to do with the distance the bulk 
of the population has from agriculture. Also, agriculture is not offered in 
high schools as much, leaving many young people unaware of opportunities. 
Horticulture in metro area high schools seems to be reviving though. Finally, 
one must ask how agriculture as a career can compete with other career 
opportunities. It's a difficult situation at best.Bill > Has 
anyone else noticed the declining number of students and > apprentices in 
Horticultural disciplines?  What attracts students to Dairy > or Agronomy 
over Horticulture?  Perhaps there are greater numbers of Hort. > students 
outside of the Northeast? 
William H. Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

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Re: Apple-Crop: Time article

[Bill Shoemaker]

Con

Like you, I like the word sustainable. But I do think the previous comments 
about economics are important. We need to bridge the gap between environmental 
sustainability and economic sustainability to have a viable operative term for 
growers and the planet. In the end, humans are part of the ecosystem too. We 
need to find a way to avoid crumbling our natural foundations out from under 
ourselves. 

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html


  - Original Message - 
  From: Con.Traas 
  To: Apple-Crop 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:48 AM
  Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Time article


  Hello Kurt,
  I never thought about it much, but definitely prefer the word sustainable to 
unsustainable. I run an orchard, and it is economically viable, profitable, 
rewarding, successful (at least some would say so), and I, like you, would like 
to be a responsible steward of what we have been given. However, to be that, I 
think that what I do needs to be sustainable. If I were to engage in some 
orchard practice that meant that I lost 5% of my top soil each year, I might be 
profitable for 20 years, but after that I would run out of soil, and business. 
I would classify this as unsustainable. If I use a water resource for 
irrigation in such a way that I deplete it over time (unsustainable), again, 
this is clearly harmful in the long run, and will end up closing my farm. If I 
use it it a sustainable way, I can go on forever. So I like sustainable.
  Obviously, some forms of sustainability or unsustainability are not so 
obvious. If the inhabitants of our planet are going to use up the fossil fuels 
that amassed over a period of 300 million years in a mere 500 years, and if our 
production of fruits depends on these fossil fuels for fertiliser production, 
plant protection chemicals, fuel to deliver produce to market etc., then how 
sustainable is our fruit production?
  I personally do not think that we can answer this yet, as it depends on what 
other forms of energy we can harness as current forms grow scarce. But I do 
think that it is a good idea to consider the sustainability of what we do, as 
the most profitable orchard today might not be the most sustainable, but a more 
sustainable orchard today is likely to be more profitable tomorrow.
  Perhaps in the US, sustainable agriculture has come to mean the something 
like subsistence agriculture, which you nicely describe as being stuck under 
water with just a straw to breath through. However, over here, it is something 
that most growers are happy to consider.
  I wish you the best of luck with your pruning.
  Con Traas
  The Apple Farm
  Cahir
  Ireland
-Original Message-
From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of 
Kurt Alstede
Sent: 13 March 2007 13:21
To: 'Apple-Crop'
Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Time article


Growers,

 

Does anyone else disdain the word "sustainable" as much as I do?  Setting 
aside the USDA definition, I cannot help but have a minds eye image of being 
stuck under water and breathing through a little straw that just pokes above 
the surface.  Indeed, I am sustaining, but the situation really sucks.  
Frankly, that is not the way that I want to exist in commercial agriculture.  
My personal desire is to be a very responsible steward of God's resources, 
enjoy my work, and to make a good living.ie make money.  Certainly there are 
better words to use than sustainable.for instance "economically viable," 
"profitable," "successful," "rewarding," etc.  Who really came up with the term 
"sustainable" anyway?  I don't believe it was the full time farm community.  I 
think that the term "sustainable" really shows the hand of the greens who are 
not at all interested in your or my families making a comfortable living and 
having a successful business, but only interested in their own agenda and use 
us whenever we fit in and find us quickly disposable when we don't.

 

Happy Pruning,

 

 

Kurt W. Alstede

General Manager

Alstede Farms, LLC

P. O. Box 278

Chester, New Jersey 07930

United States of America

 

Tel.  908-879-7189

 

 

 

From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
alan surprenant
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 8:16 PM
To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Time article

 

i couldn't agree more with arthur's observations.  looking at the progress 
towards sustainable agriculture, in our case- tree fruit growing, over the long 
term (as arthur does) i can see so many good things that have come to be.  ron 
prokopy and the work he and his people did (and still do) ,  the ever 
incre

Re: Apple-Crop: Time article and herbicide strategy

[Bill Shoemaker]

I agree with you Kenny and sympathize as I watch the farm families I've served 
for 25 years grow frustrated at the mounting challenges to farming that seem to 
have little to do with growing crops. Many have a younger generation that want 
nothing to do with farming, for the reasons you cite. I'm concerned that our 
farm culture may be diminishing at a time when our need to preserve it may be 
at it's greatest.

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html

  I was talking more of a general perception of the farmer and farming in 
general. I would have liked to have heard the discussion in the late 50's as we 
in the United States basically regulated the exploration for new oil field's to 
nothing. There was plenty of oil in third world countries ( most of which were 
our allies ) and the production would greatly spur the development of their 
economies. It did not take long to find that as a net importer of oil we could 
be shut-off from supply and would pay what we had to for the product ( The road 
use tax on a gallon of gas is now more than the price was in 72). I worry that 
we are letting the same thing happen with our food production. At most of the 
grower meetings that I attend at 48 I am one of the youngest persons there. I 
only hope that we in this country do not let a generation of growers move away 
from the farm because of poor returns, long hours of hard work and most 
especially the growing regulation imposed upon us by groups of well meaning but 
short-sighted groups that have the time to complain to the government until it 
is easier to pass the wanted regulation than listen to them anymore. The 
volumes of paperwork has increased 100% or more in the last 20 years. I will be 
the first to state that there has been and still are a small group of growers 
who cause most of these problems and as an industry we would be better served 
without them. In my area we have tried to become more proactive in identifying 
possible problems whether it be environmental, the way labor is treated, or how 
our farming operation effect our neighbors. Our goal is " Do no harm to others" 
and when someone stops trying to meet this goal then help them to remember the 
alternatives.  Farming is a wonderful live style a way to make a living for 
those who are born with it in their blood. For the other people I can only feel 
sorry for them. We finished pruning today and its not to far to the golf 
course, because it will be in the 70's today and we sprayed peach last Monday 
and it looks like apples will need to be spray on Monday. May all you crops be 
plentiful and the demand for them strong. I hope this is a saying that is 
positive " may you die in Ireland".

  with much respect,
  Kenny Barnwell





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AOL at AOL.com. 

Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (breeding apples )

[Bill Shoemaker]

I would be very interested in hearing when  apple breeding has ever  had as 
robust a direction towards the reduction in chemical  dependancy as we have 
seen in the past several decades.


Maurice is right. The effort to develop disease resistant apples has been 
greater in recent years than ever before. And it came with recognition that 
our tools for managing disease were expensive and probably short-lived. But 
it's important to recognize it's very difficult to breed apples, maybe 
more-so than any other important commercial crop. The heterozygosity of 
apples and the time it takes to discover what attributes an offspring 
carries means it can take decades for a breeding program in apples to reach 
success. And then the difficulty really begins. Because apples, unlike most 
produce, is marketed by variety, consumer acceptance can take a long time. 
So it's not surprising that the breeders who initiated the breeding programs 
for disease-resistant apples at Rutgers, Purdue asnd Illinois did not live 
to see many of the varieties that have been introduced from that program, 
which is still ongoing. And most of those apple varieties have failed to 
succeed in the market, where consumers judge them. It's a tough business 
breeding apples.


A side note; I was an undergrad at the University of Illinois when I met 
Professor Dan Dayton, one of the breeders who initiated the breeding 
program. It was the year he retired. The earliest varieties from that 
program were just being introduced. He died several years later. The newest 
variety from that program was released last year, 'Juliet'. I met him almost 
30 years ago. He knew it would happen that way but still spent his career 
contributing to that program.



Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html 




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Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent 
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Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)

[Bill Shoemaker]

Steve

I've been growing Liberty and Pristine for about 10 years on B9 for 
evaluation in northern Illinois. It's taken awhile to appreciate them. But 
last year we had a very nice crop of Pristine. For the first time, I really 
enjoyed them. Flavor was great, flesh color and texture were very good for 
such an early apple (second week of August). I gave quite a few away and 
people were very fond of them. But Liberty has not developed the culinary 
quality I would want in a fresh apple. What are the characteristics of 
Liberty that you find compelling?


Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html



 The apples I rely most on are all products of breeding
programs, and the two I would most loath giving up are PRI varieties: 
Liberty and Pristine.



Steve Demuth
Decorah, Iowa




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Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent 
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Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)

[Bill Shoemaker]

Gary

I'm not aware of apple scab resistance having developed against Vf the Vf 
gene, specifically the PRI varieties. I have had Pristine, Enterprise, 
Dayton, Liberty, Redfree and Goldrush planted here for 10 years and they are 
very clean. Perhaps others can correct me.


Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html




There have been several postings about Vf resistant scab being a 
possibility

since most resistant varieties share this gene.  However, these varieties
have been around for quite a while now--is there any information about
resistance showing up anywhere?  Is there something different about Vf
resistance that would save it from what happened to Baldwin or Bramley?

Gary Mount, Grower
Princeton, NJ

- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Shoemaker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Apple-Crop" 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)



Steve

I've been growing Liberty and Pristine for about 10 years on B9 for
evaluation in northern Illinois. It's taken awhile to appreciate them. 
But

last year we had a very nice crop of Pristine. For the first time, I

really
enjoyed them. Flavor was great, flesh color and texture were very good 
for

such an early apple (second week of August). I gave quite a few away and
people were very fond of them. But Liberty has not developed the culinary
quality I would want in a fresh apple. What are the characteristics of
Liberty that you find compelling?

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html



  The apples I rely most on are all products of breeding
>>programs, and the two I would most loath giving up are PRI varieties:
>>Liberty and Pristine.

> Steve Demuth
> Decorah, Iowa



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Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent
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Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent 
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Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)

[Bill Shoemaker]

Yes, and that may contribute to lack of resistance development.

Bill
  Bill:  Do you have a spray program controlling scab on other varieties?

Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)

[Bill Shoemaker]

Good comments Con. 

I think that true sustainability will be more akin to IPM than to the set of 
rules developed for organic. It will probably involve the use of pesticides 
that are not organically approved, particularly some of the new generation 
materials. It will probably involve genetic engineering, but with more careful 
oversight. It will, by necessity, involve careful accountancy. If a grower 
cannot make a profit, he cannot be sustainable. But most importantly, as you 
imply, it will need to involve a energy budget. The world really only has one 
energy source. We have lots of stored energy (e.g. petroleum) we are wasting as 
fast as we can profit from it. But it is limited. Once we regain our senses and 
begin to account for energy useage as the fundamental component of 
sustainability, we will begin to have a better sense of how we can develop 
sustainable systems, which by definition will be economic models.

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html




  Hello again Chris and all contributors,
  I hope that I did not come across as too negative about the potential of scab 
(or other pest or disease) resistant varieties. What I hoped to get across is 
that nature is not static, and that it is virtually inevitable that resistance 
will be broken down by the pathogen, sooner or later. As was outlined by 
Jean-Marc, this has already been documented for Vf scab resistance. So 
resistance is not a solution in itself, and once it is broken down, it is too 
late, so it needs to be preserved by thoughtful orchard practice.
  I think the reality is that we need to consider using whatever we can to 
control pests and diseases. That may include forecasting models, sanitation, 
trapping systems, resistance, chemical control, and all the other mechanisms 
that many growers are already familiar with, and I am sure, some that have not 
been thought of yet.
  I agree with Chris about the potential benefit of fire-blight resistance; it 
would be revolutionary. However, if that resistance is to come via genetic 
modification, then we need to be very careful to assess if there will be any 
potential negative consequences, and if there are, to make sure that "the cure 
is not worse than the disease".
  Con

  PS. Just to get back to the sustainability question. 
  If a kg of apples gives the consumer 2300 kJ of energy, then it is no longer 
sustainable to eat these apples if it takes more than 2300kJ to produce the 
apples. If the apples are grown in your back yard, then clearly it does not 
take as much energy to go out and pick and eat one as the energy you will get 
from it. If you had to walk 1000 miles to get it, then you would probably 
starve on the way, so this is not a good proposition.
  If a truck has to drive 1000 miles to get them, the situation becomes less 
clear, especially when you consider the energy that had to be put into growing 
the fruits, spraying them, picking them, and so forth. By rough calculation, if 
an apple has to travel more than 3000 road miles in a fully-laden truck to get 
to market, it is costing more energy to make its journey, than the final 
consumer is getting by eating it. 


-Original Message-
From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 28 March 2007 16:05
To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)


Bill:  Do you have a spray program controlling scab on other varieties?

And my addition to many previous comments of recent weeks.  Reistance to 
apple scab offers considerable help to growers that can market those varieties. 
 Consider the potential benefit(s) of fire blight resistance in apple and pear, 
whether it is natural of GMO.

Chris Doll
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
Sent: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)


Gary 
 
I'm not aware of apple scab resistance having developed against Vf the Vf 
gene, specifically the PRI varieties. I have had Pristine, Enterprise, Dayton, 
Liberty, Redfree and Goldrush planted here for 10 years and they are very 
clean. Perhaps others can correct me. 
 
    Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops 
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center 
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html 
 
 
> There have been several postings about Vf resistant scab being a > 
possibility 
> since most resistant varieties share this gene. However, these varieties 
> have been around for quite a while now--is there any information about 
> resistance showing up anywhere? Is there something different about Vf 
> resistance that would save it

Re: Apple-Crop: Strains of Red Delicious

[Bill Shoemaker]

> > > Hello everyone, > I am going to plant more Red Delicious 
in 2008. > > > David Barclay I'm glad to hear you say this 
David. I've never stopped liking Red Delicious apple, I just won't buy them in 
mass retail outlets. Frankly, every variety seems to be abused by the 
distribution system so much they develop bad reputations, Red Delicioud being 
the worst case scenario. When New Zealand introduced Gala I told my wife it's a 
matter of time before the marketing system ruins them. The last few years we've 
had more disappointments with Gala than satisfaction. These varieties are 
redeemable. I'm not sure our system of distribution and mass-marketing of 
apples is. We have an old-strain non-spur Red Delicious tree at the Research 
Center. I look forward to the crops every year. I actually let them ripen 
before we pick them!Bill
William H. Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

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RE: Apple-Crop: Re: BEES & COLONY COLLAPSE DISORDER

[Bill Shoemaker]

, and for a human to believe he can think > like a bee is probably 
somewhat shortsighted > > Good Point!Bill
William H. Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

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Re: Apple-Crop: Re: BEES & COLONY COLLAPSE DISORDER

[Bill Shoemaker]

Our lone honeybee hive at the Research Center died during the winter (We did 
use imidacloprid last Fall on grapes that the honeybees seemed to forage for 
sugar in). We do not have many fruit trees, probably less than 50, but 
pollination was excellent in our apples with few honeybees present. There were 
a few bumblebees (or carpenter bees), but mostly we saw small bees that were 
about 1/2" long and about 1/8" wide. They were very active in the 
apple blossoms. The population seemed significant. They seemed to look a lot 
like hoverflies but did not hover as much. I wish I had captured a few but was 
too busy and didn't think of it. But what impresses me is that we had 
sufficient pollination that we need to thin on several varieties, including 
Jonathon and Imperial Gala.Bill ShoemakerUniv of Illinois> > > It would be unusual to have sufficient bumblebees to 
pollinate any kind > of apple acreage that early in the season. At m!
 ost you've have a few > queens, because the colonies haven't really gotten 
started yet. > > Most likely you have carpenter bees, which are often 
mistaken for > bumblebees. These early spring bees are excellent pollinators 
for > apples but are dependent on good home sites, often old buildings 
nearby. > > Dave Green > > > > - Original Message - 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Monday, May 28, 2007 1:32 pm > 
Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Re: BEES & COLONY COLLAPSE DISORDER > To: 
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net > > > Frankenbees, why not bumblebees? 
almost no bees except for the > > bumble var > > here, with 
spectacular bloom period. over croped elstars taking a > > year off. > 
> spigold , ashy bearer here, had huge bloom and good set. keepsake > 
> overcropped last > > year and shy this year. trees still getting 
pollenated somehow! > > > > > > > > ***!
 *** See what's free at > > http://www.ao
l.com. > > > 
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> > > The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard 
> and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon > Clements <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED] />. > > Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements 
do not represent > "official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard 
takes no responsibility for > the content. > > > > > > 
William H. Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

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Re: Apple-Crop: Apple Harvest

[Bill Shoemaker]

We seem to be way ahead of schedule in northern Illinois as well. Similar 
story, an early start, warm but not especially hot, then very wet, particularly 
through August. I can't remember another season when the crops matured so 
early, though I remember hotter seasons. Anyone else notice this and have an 
explanation? We escaped the notorius Easter freeze so perhaps an earlier start 
to the season coupled with the warmer than average temperatures?

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html

  Hello apple people,
  The apple harvest here in Ireland is about two weeks ahead of schedule, 

Re: Apple-Crop: Apple Juice story

[Bill Shoemaker]

Unfortunately, the text implies that rather than the $2/day chinese apple 
pickers earn, apple pickers in America earn $9-$15 (a day). As a publisher, 
perhaps you (Matt) could remind them that integrity is all the news media has 
to convince readers/listeners of the veracity of their stories. You might also 
want to tell them how long this has been going on, and that news is best served 
fresh. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. 

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html

  - Original Message - 
  From: Matt McCallum 
  To: Apple-Crop 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:03 AM
  Subject: Apple-Crop: Apple Juice story


  Check out the October 9, Lou Dobbs Tonight story on Chinese apple juice 
concentrate.  They made a big deal that most of the apple juice sold is from 
Chinese concentrate - wow talk about being late to the party...

  http://media.vmsnews.com/MR.pl?id=100907-800813-Q001194320.




  ---

  Matt McCallum

  Publisher/CEO




  Great American Publishing

  75 Applewood Drive Suite A

  Sparta MI 49345




  P - 616-887-9008 ext 101

  F - 616-887-2666




  http:www.freshcut.com

  http://www.fruitgrowersnews.com

  http://www.vegetablegrowersnew..com

  http://www.spudman.com

Re: Apple-Crop: U-Pick whining

[Bill Shoemaker]

I think this is a common consumer mentality, but it seems that there is 
considerable momentum building against it. Movements like "Slow Food" and 
"Locally Grown" and the rising popularity of the culinary community are drawing 
attention to the issue of food quality, especially produce. As efforts to make 
the public more aware of direct-marketing operations grow, I think you'll see 
this attitude diminish. Besides, what are the stores in your area offering to 
compete against you? Somebody brought me a mass-marketed Honeycrisp yesterday 
(wanted to educate me!). It wasn't too bad, but it certainly wasn't fresh 
quality. Very pretty though!

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html



   Sounded like the author was much more interested in price than quality or 
the time well spent with family building a family tradition.  

Re: Apple-Crop: Local Production

[Bill Shoemaker]

Con

The same trend is developing here. It is referred to as "Locally-Grown" and is 
primarily consumer-driven but is also being pushed by the culinary community. 
While the rationale of reducing carbon footprint lends credence to it, there 
are other concerns as well. These include preserving regional identity, food 
security and improved quality. Examples of evidence of this trend include a 
program being developed by the city of Chicago to set a goal of having at least 
10% of the city's food derived from local sources. Another is the recognition 
in The Packer produce newspaper of locally grown as a newsworthy trend. For 
those not familier with The Packer, it is a North American weekly newspaper 
focused on issues in the produce industry.

I think your point is well-taken Con. This trend, if adopted, could impact 
local direct-market operations. I wonder if the impact will be negative or 
positive though. It could increase awareness of the value of locally-grown as a 
fresher product and an investment in the locally economy, perhaps even the 
local culture ("people against the e-world!"). It could also represent a local 
wholesale market for growers who have been direct-marketers, a return to the 
regional identity of food. 

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html


  Normally we watch the US setting a trend, and then we follow it ten or more 
years later in Ireland. It was like that with supermarkets, outside-of-town 
shopping, and farmers' markets. However, recently we have seen something else 
arising, and I have not seen too much comment on how it may affect large apple 
growing areas, nor am I aware if it has already occurred in the US.

  A supermarket chain in the UK (with stores in Ireland) called Marks & Spencer 
has announced Plan A. It is so-called because there is no plan B, and Plan A is 
to become carbon neutral in five years.

  Part of that will involve reducing long distance freight (especially air 
freight, which will be signalled by placing an aeroplane symbol on foods), and 
working with suppliers to make them carbon neutral also.

  Because of this plan, which other retailers like Tesco are mimicking, and 
because of consumer demand and political pressure, the issue of local sourcing 
is getting very prominent, with retailers very keen to be seen as the ones who 
stock local foods. Indeed, as a result, chains like Tesco, who up to now only 
allowed central purchasing, are now using regional purchasing, so that 
suppliers in a locality can sell through their shops in that locality.

  Personally, as a farm retailer, I am not too keen on seeing Tesco (and other 
similar stores) sell local apples, as it erodes my unique selling point, in as 
much as customers can get local apples without calling to me. However, this 
just leaves me with the challenge of communicating other stories of how I am 
different.

  However, on a larger scale, for a country like Ireland, where 90% of apples 
and 50% of vegetables are imported, changes like this represent an opportunity; 
all the more so since the underlying reasons for the change (fuel scarcity & 
global warming) are getting more urgent rather than less. However, if producers 
here are going to expand, then someone somewhere else will lose market share.

  Not that it has happened yet. Due to consumption increase, and population 
increase, sales of apples have increased by 20% over the past five years, while 
production has been static, so up to now Irish growers have been losing market 
share. However, the dynamic is most certainly in the opposite direction, and I 
suspect that growers will increase domestic production. For one thing, as fuel 
gets more expensive, the cost of imported fruit and vegetables gets higher, 
leaving more room for domestic producers to realise a profit.

  Is the era of cheap food coming to an end?

  Con Traas

  The Apple Farm

  Moorstown

  Cahir

  Ireland

   

Re: Apple-Crop: Local Production

[Bill Shoemaker]

As goes oil, so goes the economy. We've long been seduced by sucking energy out 
of the ground at virtually no cost. I think the era of cheap everything is 
coming to an end. Change is normal, but this may be a bit traumatic. 

Bill
  Is the era of cheap food coming to an end?

Re: Apple-Crop: Spring 2008

[Bill Shoemaker]

Con

It is still the dead of winter here, with Spring still far away. 

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center - Chicago 
metro west
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html

Re: Apple-Crop: Electronic Shears

[Bill Shoemaker]

Re: Apple-Crop: Electronic ShearsI appreciate your effort to prepare these 
observations Sandy. As I get older, I find the knuckles in my hand less 
resilient the day after pruning, so I find your comments very worthwhile. Could 
you offer any observations on your shopping experience? Were there serious 
disparities in prices from vendors? 

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html


  After nearly 2 years of use, we thought it appropriate to offer a few 
observations on the use of an electronic shears. In October of 2006, I 
initiated a brief thread; the responses (of which I was most grateful) are 
copied below under OCTOBER, 2006 for reference. Possibly others may wish to 
share current experiences again.


  A Campagniola battery-powered electronic hand shears (Tronic Star) has been 
used to prune 12 foot trees for two winters (total 12 months, 30-35 hours/week) 
in a Vermont apple orchard. It was originally acquired to mitigate tendonitis 
experienced from hand pruning by a long-term employee.

   

  Observations:

a.. About 12 hours of actual use can be expected before battery recharging 
required.
b.. Comfortable in hand.
c.. Up to 1 inch cuts can be made in frozen wood; slightly more if limb 
leveraged with other hand.
d.. Less use of hand saw. 
e.. Generally more trees pruned per day compared to hand shears/saw alone. 
f.. Battery pack (on back) not burdensome. Climbing beyond first tier 
scaffolds not recommended. 
g.. Supplementary elastics around arm help prevent power cord from snagging 
wayward branches. 
h.. Daily blade sharpening recommended. 
i.. Discipline to control potential urge to over prune (it's now so much 
fun!) 
j.. A well-made unit. 
k.. Warranty covered repair of power cord, trigger safety and indicator 
light, the only failures for first 7 months use. 
l.. A negative: trigger guard can be too small for an insulated glove. 
m.. NO tendonitis experienced: purchase more than justified. 

  We are generally very pleased with the unit and recommend it (or a comparable 
quality electronic shears) for increased pruning speed and, especially, for 
minimizing repetitive motion injury such as strained muscles and tendonitis 
which, besides being painful, can result in increased general fatigue and 
poorer employee performance.

  Sandy Witherell
  Shoreham, Vermont 
  USA

Re: Apple-Crop: Fruit Research Job in Ireland

[Bill Shoemaker]

At the current exchange rate, about $55,000 US dollars. I hear the lifestyle is 
pretty nice Con. I think you'll have some lookers, hopefully a keeper of two.

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html


   if you have a salary of 50,000 euros in Ireland, the social insurance for 
the worker costs about 4,000 euros, and the tax about 13,000 euros, leaving 
33,000 euros. 

Re: Apple-Crop: Damage in Washington & California

[Bill Shoemaker]

I'm getting feedback on damage to vineyards but nothing on orchards yet.

Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center
www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html


  - Original Message - 
  From: Annette and Randy Bjorge Fruit Acres Farms 
  To: Apple-Crop 
  Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:22 AM
  Subject: Apple-Crop: Damage in Washington & California


  Hi Apple Croppers,

  There are rumors in Michigan about there being damage in Washington State and 
California. Does anybody know anything?
  Annette Bjorge
  Fruit Acres Farms
  Coloma, MI

Re: Apple-Crop: apples in Indonesia

[Bill Shoemaker]

a, and they told her apples
wouldn’t grow in the 
> tropics. She finally
found our website, and has arranged for the import 
> of apple
benchgrafts to Rwanda, Sierra Leone, and Sudan this year and 
>
Congo next season. 
> 
> If anyone has photos of apple
growing in the tropics, I’d appreciate if 
>
you can email them to me, as they’re a bit hard to
find. Any cultural 
> information is also appreciated. 
>

> Kevin Hauser 
> Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery 
>
Riverside, Southern California 
> www.kuffelcreek.com 
>

> 
> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:56:51 -0700, Jim Rahe
 wrote: 
>>>Dear all, 
>> A
belated reply to Dr. Chiranjit Parmar's email of 2/17/09 regarding 
>> apples growing in Jawa, Indonesia that might be of interest of
apple 
>> growers in temperate climates. I had the privilege of
visiting this 
>> area, Batu Malang, approximately 100 km south
of Surabaya in the 
>> eastern part of Jawa in 1991. It's a
short drive out of the city of 
>> Malang (In the Indonesian
language, 'batu' means 'rock', so Batu 
>> Malang means
Malang's rock or hill. You can locate Malang on most 
>> maps
of Indonesia, but not Batu Malang because it's relatively 
>>
small). It was an amazing, eye opening experience. Batu Malang is, 
>> or at least was in 1991, a relatively prosperous town whose
economy 
>> is largely derived from growth of apples and
container nursery stock. 
>> The area is at about 1500 metres
elevation, with an idyllic climate 
>> of daytime highs in the
mid 20's and nighttime lows in the upper 
>> teens, centigrade.
It appears that the trick to getting around the 
>> absence of
winter chilling is to defoliate the trees by hand 
>>
immediately after harvest. This throws the trees into a pseudo 
>> dormancy and new blossom buds break 6-8 weeks later. The area
as a 
>> whole produces fresh apples 12 month of the year, with
individual 
>> growers producing in Jan/Jul, Feb/ Aug,
Mar/Sept, . The apples 
>> are exported to major cities
throughout Indonesia, not only on Jawa 
>> but distant islands
such as Sulawesi. (We lived in Manado, North 
>> Sulawesi from
Aug 90-92, and apples from Batu Malang were often 
>> available
in some of the commercial grocery stores, but not local 
>>
markets.) There were four main varieties of apples being grown at 
>> Batu Malang, one of which was called 'Biasa', which means
'common' or 
>> 'nothing special', in the Indonesian language.
It was commonly used 
>> for cooking and I was told that it was
a Red Rome, although it was a 
>> nondescript yellowish color
rather than red. Anna was another 
>> variety grown at Batu
Malang. Anna is believed to have originated in 
>> Thailand,
and is noted for having a low chilling requirement. One of 
>>
the many unanswered questions that I have regarding growing apples in 
>> the tropics is whether the defoliation 'trick' would work with
any or 
>> most varieties, or whether the four varieties being
grown at Batu 
>> Malang are unusual in that defoliation can be
substituted for winter 
>> chilling on these varieties but
perhaps not others. Certainly, high 
>> elevation is a factor.
Near Manado where my family lived in North 
>> Sulawesi, we saw
apples being grown, albeit with very limited 
>> success, at
the village of Tomohon, at an elevation of ~1200 meters. 
>> I
was also informed that apples were being grown at high elevations 
>> on the Island of Irian Jaya, in the easternmost part of
Indonesia. 
>> Although growing apples in the tropics was a
surprise to me, and 
>> probably would be to most pomologists,
it has been known long enough 
>> that the Indonsesian Ministry
of Agiculture had a published handbook 
>> on methods of apple
cultivation that I was able to obtain from the 
>> Batu Malang
Research Station in 1992. There is also a Government 
>>
Research Station at Batu Malang, with a research orchard. There I 
>> learned that defoliation does not work on stone fruits, but is
being 
>> tried on several other temperate climate fruits. 
>> Jim Rahe 
>> 
>> -- 
>>
Annie's Orchard 
>> 4092-248th Street 
>>
Aldergrove, B.C. V4W 1B5 
>> 604-856-3041 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
--

>> 
>> The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by
the Virtual Orchard 
>> <http://www.virtualorchard.net>
and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon 
>> Clements
. 
>> 
>>
Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent

>> "official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes
no responsibility for 
>> the content. 
> 
>

> 
> 
>
--

> 
> The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the
Virtual Orchard 
> <http://www.virtualorchard.net> and
managed by Win Cowgill and Jon 
> Clements
. 
> 
> Apple-Crop is
not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent 
>
"official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no
responsibility for 
> the content. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


Bill Shoemaker

University of Illinois 
St Charles Horticulture Research Center

Re: FW: Apple-Crop: copper fungicides for organic apples?

[Bill Shoemaker]

That sounds like a great project Dave. If you have success implementing
it, could you share the results with us?

Bill Shoemaker,
University of Illinois


> Thanks to all of you who
responded to my 
> query about copper. I was actually looking for

> an OMRI approved product that specifically was 
>
labeled for summer diseases on apples, or that at 
> least allowed
such applications. Most coppers 
> labeled for apples specify a
green tip spray for 
> fire blight, blossom sprays for fire
blight, and 
> then "sprays before fall rains" for
anthracnose 
> and other diseases. I suppose that a July 
> application could be construed as being "before 
>
fall rains," but our NY regulators might not buy 
> that.
(Yes, it's true that NY regulators found 
> banking was too
difficult to understand, but they 
> still think that they can
understand and regulate 
> pesticides more effectively than the US
EPA!) 
> Anyway, my objective is to test a 
> combination
of a low rate of Liquid Lime Sulfur 
> (1 qt/100 gal of dilute
spray) combined with a 
> low rate of copper to see if we can get

> reasonable control of both summer fruit rots 
> (mostly
black rot, Botryosphaeria obtusa, in our 
> area) and the sooty
blotch and flyspeck complex. 
> I have tested the low rate of
Liquid Lime Sulfur 
> (LLS) several times in previous years and it

> seems to work quite well for flyspeck and sooty 
>
blotch. However, LLS did not control fruit rots 
> and at higher
rates it may have even stimulated 
> fruit rots, perhaps by
injuring cells that can 
> then be invaded by Botryosphaeria. 
> I've tested the LLS/copper combination 
> before using a
non-OMRI-approved copper and it 
> did not cause any more harm to
the fruit that one 
> might expect from copper sprays. However, we
did 
> not have good disease pressure in that trial, so 
>
I'm hoping to repeat it this summer. 
> 
>> 
>>From: Yoder, Keith 
>>Sent: Wed 2009-05-13 06:39 
>>To: Apple-Crop 
>>Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: copper
fungicides for organic apples? 
>> 
>> 
>>Dave, 
>> 
>>Here is a possibility with
summer labeling: Agri 
>>Star® Basic Copper 53 (Albaugh,
Inc./Agri Star) 
>> 
>>http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld0BO001.pdf 
>>
<http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld0BO001.pdf> 
>> 
>>It is registered for summer use on apples and is also listed
with OMRI. 
>> 
>>OMRI says: Basic Copper 53,
Classification: 
>>"When used for plant disease control
must be 
>>used in a manner that minimizes accumulation of 
>>copper in the soil. May be used as an algicide, 
>>insecticide, or disease control if the 
>>requirements of 205.206(e) are met, which 
>>requires
the use of preventative, mechanical, 
>>physical, and other
pest, weed, and disease 
>>management practices". 
>> 
>>The contact listed with OMRI is: Albaugh, Inc.:
Mark Blume, Ph: 
>> 515-964-9444. 
>> 
>>Summer diseases on the CDMS-posted Basic Copper 
>>53
label include Brooks spot, sooty blotch and 
>>bitter rot. The
label warns about copper injury 
>>and calls for different
rates and different 
>>amounts of lime to be added to the mix
at 
>>different times of the season. 
>> 
>>We tested a product with the same name and 
>>similar
label wording but from a different 
>>distributor in 1995. The
reference for that 
>>report is Fungicide and Nematicide Tests,
Vol. 
>>51:31-32 (1996). "Summer disease control by 
>>copper formulations and fungicide mixtures on 
>>Nittany apple, 1995". 
>> 
>>Our
interest in testing this was for summer 
>>disease control on
processing apples, where 
>>russet isn't as much of a concern
as for fresh 
>>market. We used Basic Copper "53" 2
lb/A from 
>>greentip- petal fall, then Basic Copper
"53" 4 
>>lb/A + Hydrated Lime 12 lb/A (first-fourth

>>covers) followed by Basic Copper "53" 4 lb/A + 
>>Hydrated Lime 8 lb/A (fifth and sixth covers). 
>>Treatments were applied airblast to large trees 
>>at
100 gal/A. 
>> 
>>That year we had one of the
heaviest bitter rot 
>>tests we've ever had. We got decent
bitter rot 
>>control, better than a schedule involving 
>>Polyram 80DF 3 lb/A + Ziram 3 lb/A through 
>>second
cover then Captan 50W 3 lb + Ziram 76DF 3 
>>lb/A, third to
sixth covers. The copper schedule 
>>was weak on flyspeck
(which has been true with 
>>other coppers in other tests). In
our test, 19 
>>wetting periods at 70 F or warmer occurred from

>>mid-May to mid-August contributed to the heavy 
>>summer diseas

Re: Apple-Crop: Re: Pristine apple tree

[Bill Shoemaker]

Dave

I have a couple of Pristine trees on B9 that are about 10
years old now, maybe a couple of years older. The fruit tend to be oblate
shaped and with distinct lobing that makes them look a little misshapened.
I suspect if pollination isn't optimum, that trait may be pronounced.
Harold may be on to an important issue as well.

Further, I was
not impressed by the quality of fruit early, but over time I learned its
peak maturity and have become a fan of it as an apple for fresh eating.
I've given them away to a number of people in recent years to learn their
response and have had only favorable responses. So I think it's an apple
that needs a little patience and a learning curve, but is rewarding in the
end. Its certainly become a consistently good apple in that maturity
window, which has little else to offer in northern Illinois.

Bill




> I planted Pristine, Sundance and
Pixie Crunch in 2002. 
> I am having consistent annual problems
with the Pristine. 
> Despite what is implied by its name, I am
having a uniquely 
> bad apple quality from this tree. 
>

> Spray schedule: 
> 1/ dormant oil 
> 2/
Fertilome Blight Spray (streptomycin) was applied during bloom. 
>
3/ Following bloom drop - every 7 - 10 days with Imidan and Captan. 
> 
> Every year, the fruits are notably irregular shaped,
bumpy and malformed. 
> They are certainly not smooth and
pristine. They are the 
> only variety out of 20 I have that do
this. And the malformation 
> is noticeable when fruit is just
forming - finger tip sized. 
> Any idea what is causing this?
Everything else about 
> the growth of this Pristine Apple is
fine. 
> Thanks. 
> 
> 
> Dave Meyer 
> Home orchardist 
> Greenville, OH 


Bill
Shoemaker 
University of Illinois 
St Charles Horticulture
Research Center

Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch

[Bill Shoemaker]

Axel

You're in a tough place Alex. Bacterial diseases are generally tough, and in 
woody plants like apples, incredibly persistent. If you're cutting out infected 
material, I hope you're cutting back at least 6" from the infection. Any pest 
control material you use right now may be futile until conditions cease 
favoring disease. Just hold in there until warmer, drier weather prevails, then 
re-assess. I'm not familiar with the variety, but perhaps its not a good match 
for your climate. Good luck.

Bill

William H Shoemaker, UI-NRES
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
535 Randall Road  St Charles, IL  60174
630-584-7254; FAX-584-4610


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Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent 
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Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch

[Bill Shoemaker]

>   The question is, what happens to the bacteria when
>   it gets warmer? Does it just go dormant in the tree?

My understanding is that moisture availability drives secondary cycles of the 
population. Warmer weather won't help unless it leads to drier weather. When 
dry weather begins to prevail, the bacterium will cease to spread but remain 
systemic in the tree. Thats why its such a difficult disease to manage. 

Lets just hope it gets drier. For us it's the wettest Spring I can remember 
around Chicago. We entered June about 10" ahead of normal for the year. We have 
had 5" in June so far. Its raining now with rain forecasted 3 of the next 5 
days. 

Bill
William H Shoemaker, UI-NRES
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
535 Randall Road  St Charles, IL  60174
630-584-7254; FAX-584-4610


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Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent 
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Re: Apple-Crop: deer

[Bill Shoemaker]

Looks like the stout may not be a good IPM strategy Mo.

Bill


>
>   I'll be looking for the stout on the 15th Mo.
>
>   Art Kelly
>   Kelly Orchards
>   Acton, ME
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Mo Tougas
> To: Apple-Crop
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 5:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: deer
> We have found that Irish Spring works best in
> combination with dryer sheets, and Guinness Stout.
> You need to hang both the sheets and the soap on
> the perimeter of the orchard, and place bottles of
> stout about every fifty feet or so.
> Lebricons will smell the Irish Spring and see the
> white dryer sheets, and think they are at a
> football (soccer) game. They will naturally drink
> the stout, while hanging around in the trees
> around the perimeter of the orchard. While they
> enjoy the stout they will make such a scene that
> no self respecting deer will be found near the
> orchard.
> Mo Tougas
> Tougas Family Farm
> Northborough,MA 01532
> On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:49 PM, jerry sietsema wrote:
>
>   Howard, how do you make that solution? What
>   rates???  Thanks!!!
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Howard Claussen
> To: 'Apple-Crop'
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 7:35 AM
> Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: deer
> I have a small (150 tree) family orchard.  I
> spray my trees with a solution of Irish Spring
> soap.  Have not lost a tree in 15 years to
> deer or rabbits.
> I also hang each year A 1/4 bar of soap from
> each tree so
William H Shoemaker, UI-NRES
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
535 Randall Road  St Charles, IL  60174
630-584-7254; FAX-584-4610


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Re: Apple-Crop: LA Times Re: organic

[Bill Shoemaker]

I don't mean to belabor this topic, but I don't think its been properly 
addressed yet in this thread. Taste is subjective and very difficult to 
objectively sort out. But in my 27 years of experience working with fruit and 
vegetable growers, organic and conventional, with a personal interest in the 
issue driving me to focus on it, I've developed a very different opinion on 
what drives flavor in fresh produce. I agree that today's fresh produce in most 
supermarkets can be awful. That's not an exaggeration. When peaches are crunchy 
and apples are soft, zucchini are shriveled and sweet corn husks are brown, 
berries are grey and fuzzy and peppers are wrinkled, THE PRODUCE IS DEAD! This 
is the advantage of the retail producer; fully ripened, freshly picked, little 
or no travel. Most organic producers sell retail, they are driven by the 
quality motive and the wholesale buyers of organic are "largely" pressured by 
the quality motive. Conventional produce suffers from a lack of that !
 in!
centive. Most of it in supermarkets is harvested prematurely (sometimes 
disgustingly so), handled inappropriately by the many handlers, including 
consumers, and it travels enormous distance over too much time. This is a 
living product that is literally handled to death. And the industry is little 
motivated to change this because it profits from it. When, and I don't mean if, 
organic produce becomes subjected to the same handling and attitudes, it will 
suffer the same fate. 

When I make our conventionally grown produce available to people, they are 
astounded at the flavor. Its not because I did anything other than manage the 
plant properly and let people eat the produce optimally. They are astounded 
because their typical experience is to eat dead produce. Unfortunately, that is 
what our system delivers to them.

Bill


>   But I also believe it's because it's how you grow
>   your non-organic apples. if you sprayed all the
>   inorganic pesticides, the pre-harvest drop reduction
>   agents, and pumped the soil full of nitrogen, your
>   inorganic apples would be terrible compared to the
>   organic ones. I believe that this definitely affects
>   taste.
>
>   My point was that in principle, organic or
>   low/no-spray conventional properly harvested and
>   handled apples are better tasting than apples
>   assaulted with chemicals, and maybe that has to do
>   with the fact that such growers take more care in
>   handling apples for better flavor. I can tell you
>   there is a striking difference in between Safeway
>   apples and organic apples at Whole Foods for
>   example.
>
>   But I've had my share of crappy organic apples, so
>   yes, you have to "compare apples to apples".
>
>   Like I say, I will not walk away from delicious
>   produce just because it's not organic even though I
>   favor organic produce. For example,. I get my
>   favorite grapes from a conventional grower that uses
>   as little pesticides as possible.
William H Shoemaker, UI-NRES
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
535 Randall Road  St Charles, IL  60174
630-584-7254; FAX-584-4610


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The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard 
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Re: Apple-Crop: deer

[Bill Shoemaker]

Sounds interesting. Could you describe what it is and how you think it works? 

Bill



>   I am aware that large orchards and geology of where
>   they are planted would play into it but has anyone
>   tried "flat fencing"? We used it this year and it
>   has kept out deer and raccoons. We used a
>   combination of chicken wire and the plastic snow
>   fencing. Seem they do not like stepping on it. At
>   least it might be less expensive than an electric
>   fence or could possibly be used in combination to
>   reduce costs. Just a thought.
>
>   T. Curl
>   Fichthorn-Curl Farms
>   Ohio, USA
William H Shoemaker, UI-NRES
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
535 Randall Road  St Charles, IL  60174
630-584-7254; FAX-584-4610


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RE: Apple-Crop: Follow-up on organic study

[Bill Shoemaker]

Its interesting that the Organic Center is critical about the FSA's use of 
"older varieties no longer in use" in their research. In my experience with 
organic growers they are very keen to use older varieties, mostly heirlooms, 
which by definition fell out of popular use before being revived. Certainly 
seems to be a point of discoonect in their argument.

Bill



>   Here's the Organic Center response to the FSA
>   study.  This response steers clear of the "debate
>   about the debate" and instead focuses on the data
>   and why two different recent reviews on the same
>   issue produced different conclusions.  Will be very
>   interesting to see how this plays out over time -
>   the Organic Center study suggests additional, new
>   studies using varieties currently grown will support
>   nutritional benefits from organic foods. 
>
>
>
>   http://www.organic-center.org/science.nutri.php?action=view&report_id=157
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   *
>
>   Thomas A. Green, PhD, CCA, TSP
>
>   President
>
>   IPM Institute of North America, Inc.
>
>   4510 Regent St.
>
>   Madison WI 53705
>
>   608 232-1410
>
>   Fax 608 232-1440
>
>   ipmwo...@ipminstitute.org
>
>   www.ipminstitute.org
>
>   www.greenshieldcertified.org
>
>
>
>   From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>   [mailto:apple-c...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of
>   Daniel Cooley
>   Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:25 PM
>   To: Apple-Crop
>   Subject: Apple-Crop: Follow-up on organic study
>
>
>
>   FYI - 
>
>
>
>   Lawson from the Times of London:
>
>
>
>   
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/dominic_lawson/article6788644.ece
>
>
>
>   Goldacre from The Guardian:
>
>
>
>   http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/01/bad-science-organic-food
>
>
>
>
>
>   
>
>   Daniel R. Cooley   
>   
>
>   Dept. of Plant, Soil & Insect Sci.  
>
>   Fernald Hall
>   103 
>
>   University of Massachusetts
>
>   Amherst, MA 01003   
>  
>
>
>
>   Office: 413-577-3803
>
>   Cell: 413-531-3383
>
>   dcoo...@microbio.umass.edu
>
>   FAX 413-545-2115
>
>
>
>   http://people.umass.edu/dcooley/
>
>   Office location: 103 Clark Hall
>
>
>
>
>
>
William H Shoemaker, UI-NRES
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
535 Randall Road  St Charles, IL  60174
630-584-7254; FAX-584-4610


--

The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard 
 and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon 
Clements .

Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent 
"official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for 
the content.

RE: Apple-Crop: Follow-up on organic study

[Bill Shoemaker]

The following article on pesticide residues in peaches was published today in 
the Chicago Tribune. Shows that the issue remains one of public interest, and 
controversy.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-0812_peaches_graphicaug12,0,718753.story 

Bill

William H Shoemaker, UI-NRES
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
535 Randall Road  St Charles, IL  60174
630-584-7254; FAX-584-4610


--

The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard 
 and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon 
Clements .

Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent 
"official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for 
the content.

Re: Apple-Crop: Apples in Afghanistan

[Bill Shoemaker]

I have a colleague who just returned from Afganistan. He was very happy with 
his service there. He feels he's contributing to the effort to build a stable 
society. They may make more money with drug crops but they have neigbors who 
need to eat. 

Bill



>   Happy New Year to all,
>
>   I read an interesting piece on Reuters News
>   yesterday. I see that some more US agricultural
>   advisors will be sent to Afghanistan, though I
>   wonder if it is realistic to suggest to farmers
>   there that nuts and apples will give higher returns
>   than opium. I'm sure that I am preaching to the
>   converted here when I suggest that apple growing is
>   hardly a highly profitable venture.
>
>   Con Traas
>
>
>
>   http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-45331820100112
>
>
>
>   KABUL (Reuters) - Interrupted by the occasional
>   whirring of military helicopters overhead, the U.S.
>   agriculture chief sipped pomegranate juice with
>   Afghan farmers, who told him not enough
>   international aid was getting through.
>
>   Wrapping up a three-day visit to Afghanistan on
>   Tuesday, Tom Vilsack met the farmers -- representing
>   pomegranate and apple growers -- at an fruit juice
>   export plant in Kabul, part funded by the United
>   States which has made agriculture the biggest
>   non-security priority in the country.
>
>   Seated outside, the farmers complained of lack of
>   credit facilities -- something Vilsack is looking
>   into -- and problems in the entire farming chain,
>   from acquiring seeds to a lack of refrigeration and
>   getting goods to market during a war.
>
>   "We hear of pledges of funding but we have not seen
>   anything yet," said Haji Ghulam Dastageen, an apple
>   and apricot farmer from Paktia province. "We are
>   looking forward to getting assistance from the
>   international community and from the (agriculture)
>   ministry," he added via a translator.
>
>   Vilsack, who pointed to the U.S.-funded juice
>   factory behind him as proof of U.S. commitment,
>   later announced an additional $20 million in aid to
>   help improve Afghanistan's agriculture ministry
>   deliver services to farmers.
>
>   "After decades of conflict, Afghanistan lacks many
>   of the personnel and knowledge resources needed to
>   deliver much-needed services to its people, more
>   than 80 percent of whom rely on agriculture for
>   wages and sustenance," he said at a news conference
>   announcing the funds.
>
>   Last year, the United States spent about $300
>   million on agriculture projects in Afghanistan and
>   projected spending this year is more than $400
>   million. Vilsack also promised to send more U.S.
>   agricultural advisors.
>
>   The hope is that funds spent bolstering
>   Afghanistan's agriculture ministry will improve
>   delivery of services to the country's farmers and
>   thus boost confidence in central government and draw
>   support away from the Taliban.
>
>   FARMER-TO-FARMER
>
>   A farm owner himself, Vilsack peppered the Afghan
>   farmers with questions from how they got their water
>   to what they needed in terms of credit facilities
>   and packaging to protect goods currently bruised en
>   route to market.
>
>   The United States and other allies are looking at a
>   range of credit options for farmers in the hope they
>   can wean many from growing opium poppy, which fuels
>   the Taliban insurgency.
>
>   The goal is to provide up-front funds for wheat but
>   also higher-value products such as table grapes,
>   nuts and apples in the hope they will get better
>   returns than opium. Afghanistan produces nearly all
>   of the world's opium, used to make heroin.
>
>   "We are looking forward to receiving loans ... we
>   also want low interest," said Haji Yaseen, another
>   apple grower from Paktia province.
>
>   "Farmers everywhere want that," laughed Vilsack, a
>   former governor from the U.S. farming state of Iowa.
>
>   The Obama administration has promised to present a
>   list of credit options to the Afghan agriculture
>   ministry by March. The plan is to offer credit
>   facilities like those given to farmers in the United
>   States, who get low-interest loans.
>
>   "How do you pay for your imports? Would you use a
>   banking system?," Vilsack asked the farmers, who all
>   nodded.
>
>   When U.S. President Barack Obama announced his new
>   strategy to send in 30,000 more troops to
>   Afghanistan, he also promised a civilian "surge,"
>   including additional agricultural advisors to
>   overhaul an industry devastated by decades of war.
>
>   "President Obama ... understands that the future of
>   your country is on this table," said Vilsack,
>   pointing to a table laden with nuts, apples and
>   pomegranates, many of which he sampled.
>
>   "I look forward to going back to Washington with
>   your messages and to give as much help as we
>   possibly can," Vilsack told the farmers. "I can
>   assure you that I'm going to 

Re: Apple-Crop: For Discussion: Pesticide Applications Rates and Tree Row Vol...

[Bill Shoemaker]

I agree with Davids comments and appreciate his straightforward approach. I 
think all of us who work at public universities make individual choices of how 
we respond to these situations. The newer you are into the system the more risk 
you may feel by introducing revolutionary concepts. Part of that is because, 
appropriately, we face challenges to anything we propose as a part of the 
vetting of the information we deliver. It is part of the beauty of science. 
It's not perfect and it has to survive the realities of the alleys of life, 
natural selection if you will. Sometimes there's collateral damage. I think any 
of us with a sense of responsibility tries very hard to avoid that kind of 
impact but it is inherent to what we do. Administrators are much more senistive 
to the backlash than we are because they are closer to the elected officials. 
Another form of natural selection. Its all imprecise and imperfect and quite 
consistent with the way the natural world works, IMHO. Kind o!
 f !
like the marketplace, I think. Now that I think about it, it's probably a good 
thing I'm in the latter phases of my career! ";>) And its a shame, but there 
are fewer and fewer of us all the time.

Bill




>Hi, Dave --
>   "Intimidation" may by too strong a word, and I certainly have 
>never felt any sense of intimidation concerning my expression of 
>opinions or my selection of research projects.  However, I think that 
>all of us are just a bit reluctant to back away from cherished 
>concepts that we viewed for many years as points of progress toward 
>common goals (i.e., IPM, minimizing pesticide use, environmental 
>progress, etc.).  As a result, we may be too slow to admit when some 
>of these strategies no longer work as intended.  I probably should 
>not have use the PC terminology to express this concern, but there is 
>some of that involved.
>   Ultimately, there can be little doubt that universities are 
>backing away from the kind of applied research that is needed to 
>address complex problems in agriculture. That fact is clearly 
>illustrated by recognizing that Andrew Landers' program is perhaps 
>the only university-supported program in northeastern United States 
>that deals with issues of spray deposition despite the fact that 
>virtually all other research on agricultural pest controls (whether 
>biological, biorational, or traditional pesticides) are ultimately 
>dependent on effective methods for getting the "pesticide" applied to 
>the target.
>
>
>>  I think public universities are the locus of origin and 
>>propagation of much that has become "politically correct" in 
>>American culture, yet I am surprised by the suggestion
>>(at the end of Dave Rosenberger's useful observations) that unspoken 
>>intimidation may now influence the content of university 
>>publications on spray recommendations.
>>There could be no enterprise in which unbiased science is more 
>>essential than in its application to commercial tree-fruit culture.
>>
>>David Kollas
>>Kollas Orchard
>>Tolland, CT
>>
>>On Jan 16, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Dave Rosenberger wrote:
>>
>>> Tree-row volume is a complex subject that always generates 
>>>widely divergent reactions.  I'll add my personal perspectives to 
>>>further muddy the water.
>>> First, as I recall, the TRV concept was introduced by 
>>>horticulturists looking for a way to reduce variability in results 
>>>when they applied chemical thinners, and it helped them to meet 
>>>that objective.  However, sprays applied to adjust crop load are 
>>>different than pest control sprays because, with chemical thinners, 
>>>there are significant economic penalties both for applying too much 
>>>and for applying too little.  With pest control sprays, you may pay 
>>>a bit extra for the pesticides when products are over-applied, but 
>>>you lose MUCH more if you under-apply and have a control failure.  
>>>Thus, the risk-benefit ratio for implementing TRV changes 
>>>significantly when one moves from thinning sprays to pesticide 
>>>sprays unless one assigns high values to the social merits 
>>>minimizing pesticide use, etc.
>>> Nevertheless, TRV worked pretty well for most pesticides when 
>>>it was first introduced. I think that to some extent, this occurred 
>>>because during the 1960s and 1970s we were in the habit of almost 
>>>always applying pesticides at far higher rates than were generally 
>>>needed.  I recall being told at the start of my career in the 1970s 
>>>that as scientists we needed to test products under the highest 
>>>inoculum levels possible so as to arrive at generalized 
>>>recommendations that would always work on commercial farms no 
>>>matter how dire the situation.  Given those conditions, applying 
>>>pesticides with TRV rates involved very little risk because the 
>>>high rates that we were using as a base allowed plenty of room for 
>>>error without risk of control failures.
>>>  Several big changes over the past 30 years have mad

Re: Apple-Crop: RE:..and causes you to be fat too!

[Bill Shoemaker]

I recently heard life is terminal. I think someone should do something about 
that. Who's in charge here!

Bill



 Original message 
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:31:11 -0400
>From: Ken Hall   
>Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: RE:..and causes you to be fat too!  
>To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>
>   Is anyone familiar with work on human exposure to
>   kaolin clay in an orchard setting?  A pulmonary
>   disease referred to as "kaolinosis" has been
>   identified in people who had high exposure to clay
>   dust.  What about lower levels of exposure, year
>   after year, to orchard workers or pick-your-own
>   apple customers?
>   Not sure we can even say that kaolin is beyond
>   suspicion.
>   Ken Hall
>   Edwards Apple Orchard, Inc.
>   7061 Centerville Road
>   Poplar Grove, IL 61065
>   Ph:  815-765-2234
>   Fx:  815-765-1072
>   Cl:   815-520-5764
>   Email: edsorch...@aol.com
>
>   -Original Message-
>   From: Fleming, William 
>   To: Apple-Crop 
>   Sent: Fri, Jul 23, 2010 4:31 pm
>   Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: RE:..and causes you to be
>   fat too!
>
>   I wouldn’t say organic pesticides more toxic to
>   the environment but the fact that most are so broad
>   spectrum that they kill beneficials as well as
>   pests. That makes them unecological. as compared to
>   many of the modern pesticides that are very specific
>   in their targets. Plus many times when you kill the
>   beneficials you cause a whole new set of problems
>   that have to be addressed. You end up having to
>   spray even more.
>   Just the fact that organic pesticides are short
>   lived also makes them unecological in increased fuel
>   usage when several sprays may be needed to take the
>   place of one conventional material.
>
>   Bill Fleming
>   Montana  State  University
>   Western Ag Research  Center
>   580 Quast Ln
>   Corvallis, Montana
>
>   
>
>   From: apple-c...@virtualorchard..net
>   [mailto:apple-c...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of
>   Robert kuljis
>   Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 10:46 AM
>   To: Apple-Crop
>   Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: RE:...and causes you to be
>   fat too!
>
>   I agree to buy local , but how can you say that
>   organic pesticides are more toxic to the
>   enviornment?  Lets see, kaolin clay, entrust(soil
>   organism), pyrethreum(breaks down VERY fast, as
>   opposed to synthetic version which last longer).
>How are these  more toxic then man made chemicals
>   which do not break down? they break down into
>   compounds that still have no analog in nature..
>
>   On Jul 23, 2010, at 8:18 AM, 
>   wrote:
>
>   It is more important to know where your food is
>   grown!   We have seen salmonella from melons and
>   scallions from Mexico and Asia. The USA has the Food
>   & Drug Administration that tightly regulates
>   pesticides and their application.  Foreign foods do
>   not!  Some pesticides are not applied to the food at
>   all but on small plastic tabs that are clipped on
>   branches to act as a deterrent to the bug.  Organic
>   food growers use pesticides also, just more often
>   because the product does not last as long.  Many
>   organic pesticides are more toxic to the environment
>   than the standard commercial grower uses.  I know
>   because I am a commercial grower of apples.
>   Pesticides in the run off stream water from the home
>   gardener is one of the biggest offenders of
>   pollution.   Consumers should use common sense and
>   wash everything raw before eating it.  don't deprive
>   children of good nutrition because of a sensational
>   hit article that may be designed to  garner
>   contributions to their non-profit cause.  We grow
>   the safest food in the world.  Support your local
>   farmer's market and buy American!
>
>   
>
>   To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>   From: david_d...@mac..com
>   Subject: Apple-Crop: ...and causes you to be fat
>   too!
>   Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:47:28 -0400
>
>   the current lead story on Yahoo
>   - 
> http://shine..yahoo.com/event/loveyourbody/why-you-cant-lose-those-last-10-pounds-1964849/
>
>   "...See, an apple a day may have kept the doctor
>   away 250 years ago when Benjamin Franklin included
>   the phrase in his almanac. But if that apple comes
>   loaded with obesity-promoting chemicals — nine of
>   the ten most commonly used pesticides are obesogens,
>   and apples are one of the most pesticide-laden foods
>   out there — then Ben’s advice is way out of
>   date"
>
>   I look forward to market saturday -
>
>   David Doud - 
>
>   grower - indiana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   
>
>   The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and
>   e-mail from your inbox. Get started.
>
William H Shoemaker, UI-Crop Sciences
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center

Re: Apple-Crop: RE:..and causes you to be fat too!

[Bill Shoemaker]

I agree. I wasn't really arguing with Ken. I just wonder when we will get to 
live risk-free.

Bill

 Original message 
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 11:49:50 -0700
>From: Robert kuljis   
>Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: RE:..and causes you to be fat too!  
>To: "Apple-Crop" 
>
>I think that is a good point about the kaolin,,, I know the non ag  
>formulations for pottery have all kinds of warnings for cancer,  
>inhalation threat, etc.. A simple particle mask would probably take  
>care of most of it. Not that it is that much fun to wear a mask all  
>the time while working in the trees.Of course there are lots of  
>unknowns with chemicals as well.   The problem we have is that the  
>chemicals are extremely lucrative for giant companies who control  
>much of the university funding, so much less research and development  
>goes into non chemical methods. These methods could be much much  
>cheaper.
>Considering that conventional ag is responsible for at least 40% of  
>greenhouse gas emissions, mostly due to petroleum based fertilizer,  
>conversion to an ecological organic ag system seems to be not only  
>healthier, but a prerequisite for survival at this stage..
>  Some things that can help with the application of either organic or  
>chem materials would be monitoring, understanding the disease/pest  
>life cycle,, implementing and enhancing biological controls. These  
>have come a long way, but the scale of the efforts is much higher on  
>the end of the paradigm that wants growers to keep putting out  
>chemicals whose ultimate cost is much more then the $ amount paid.
>Robert Kuljis
>Thomas Paine Farms
>
>On Jul 24, 2010, at 5:48 AM, Bill Shoemaker wrote:
>
>> I recently heard life is terminal. I think someone should do  
>> something about that. Who's in charge here!
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>  Original message 
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:31:11 -0400
>>> From: Ken Hall 
>>> Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: RE:..and causes you to be fat too!
>>> To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>>>
>>>   Is anyone familiar with work on human exposure to
>>>   kaolin clay in an orchard setting?  A pulmonary
>>>   disease referred to as "kaolinosis" has been
>>>   identified in people who had high exposure to clay
>>>   dust.  What about lower levels of exposure, year
>>>   after year, to orchard workers or pick-your-own
>>>   apple customers?
>>>   Not sure we can even say that kaolin is beyond
>>>   suspicion.
>>>   Ken Hall
>>>   Edwards Apple Orchard, Inc.
>>>   7061 Centerville Road
>>>   Poplar Grove, IL 61065
>>>   Ph:  815-765-2234
>>>   Fx:  815-765-1072
>>>   Cl:   815-520-5764
>>>   Email: edsorch...@aol.com
>>>
>>>   -Original Message-
>>>   From: Fleming, William 
>>>   To: Apple-Crop 
>>>   Sent: Fri, Jul 23, 2010 4:31 pm
>>>   Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: RE:..and causes you to be
>>>   fat too!
>>>
>>>   I wouldn’t say organic pesticides more toxic to
>>>   the environment but the fact that most are so broad
>>>   spectrum that they kill beneficials as well as
>>>   pests. That makes them unecological. as compared to
>>>   many of the modern pesticides that are very specific
>>>   in their targets. Plus many times when you kill the
>>>   beneficials you cause a whole new set of problems
>>>   that have to be addressed. You end up having to
>>>   spray even more.
>>>   Just the fact that organic pesticides are short
>>>   lived also makes them unecological in increased fuel
>>>   usage when several sprays may be needed to take the
>>>   place of one conventional material.
>>>
>>>   Bill Fleming
>>>   Montana  State  University
>>>   Western Ag Research  Center
>>>   580 Quast Ln
>>>   Corvallis, Montana
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>   From: apple-c...@virtualorchard..net
>>>   [mailto:apple-c...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of
>>>   Robert kuljis
>>>   Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 10:46 AM
>>>   To: Apple-Crop
>>>   Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: RE:...and causes you to be
>>>   fat too!
>>>
>>>   I agree to buy local , but how can you say that
>>>   organic pesticides are more toxic to the
>>>   enviornment?  Lets see, kaolin clay, entrust(soil
>>>   organism), pyrethreum(breaks down VERY fast, as
>>>   opposed to synt

Re: [apple-crop] Manually dropping fruit from young trees

[Bill Shoemaker]

Rye

Its common for many commercial growers to do just that. Rather than hand 
thinning though, they use chemical thinners, such as NAA and Sevin. Depending 
on weather conditions, rates and bloom load, it will take out a percentage of 
the flowers.

Bill

 Original message 
>Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:29:54 -0500 (EST)
>From: Rye   
>Subject: [apple-crop] Manually dropping fruit from young trees  
>To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>
>   Why is it customary to allow fruit to form and then
>   drop it when it is small, rather than removing
>   flowers so the tree doesn't "waste" energy forming
>   any fruit at all?  Curious if tree growth can be
>   increased without harmful effects by removing
>   flowers before they form fruit.
>
>   Thanks,
>   Rye Hefley
>   Future Farmers Marketer
>   So. Cal.
>
>___
>apple-crop mailing list
>apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
William H Shoemaker, UI-Crop Sciences
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
535 Randall Road  St Charles, IL  60174
630-584-7254; FAX-584-4610
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Re: [apple-crop] Can Organic Agriculture Feed the World?

[Bill Shoemaker]

Bill

I thought the article Dave posted explained a pretty well documented and 
unbiased approach to understanding what a very comprehensive set of data said 
about American organic agriculture's ability to compete in terms of yield with 
their conventional counterparts. It may be strech to extrapolate it to a global 
lesson, but since American agriculture is such a major component of global 
agriculture, I think its a fair warning. I was happy to see it posted, not 
because I favor conventional ag. I just want folks to do fair and honest work 
when they make comparisons. That seems pretty rare these days.

Bill



 Original message 
>Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:56:50 -0500
>From: Bill Sciarappa   
>Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Can Organic Agriculture Feed the World?  
>To: "'Dave Schmitt'" , "'Apple-crop discussion 
>list'" , agst...@aesop.rutgers.edu, 
>agfacu...@aesop.rutgers.edu
>
>   Thanks for the article Dave.
>
>   The main fallacy in it's undocumented and biased
>   assertion (same as Rodale's political advocacy
>   approach) is  extrapolating apples to oranges.
>   Comparing US certified production to anything gives
>   a false impression. Our American organic effort lags
>far behind Australia, China, South America and most
>   parts of Europe.  Some certification in these
>   countries is more stringent than US and some is not
>   certified at all yet better in quality than US.
>   Incorporating global organic uncertified would paint
>   a very different and more equitable picture.
>
>
>
>   Regardless, if unlimited human population growth
>   occurs, there will be even more food scarcity  and
>   food riots but largely because of a distribution
>   chain problem in less accessible places and human
>   populations that cannot economically afford to pay.
>   The average cost of 20 years of organic food
>   production in Italy remains less than conventional
>   fruits and vegetables with 55,000 certified growers
>   who feed all the school systems. That's existing
>   real world evidence that is gaining in European ag
>   every year. USA policy and economic development
>   funding has done all it can to retard such
>   sustainable  growth.
>
>
>
>   Bill Sciarappa
>
>
>
>   From: Dave Schmitt
>   [mailto:schm...@aesop.rutgers.edu]
>   Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 2:54 PM
>   To: Apple-crop discussion list;
>   agst...@aesop.rutgers.edu;
>   agfacu...@aesop.rutgers.edu
>   Subject: Can Organic Agriculture Feed the World?
>
>
>
>   Interesting piece in Slate:
>
>   http://www.slate.com/id/2287746/
>
>   --
>
>___
>apple-crop mailing list
>apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
William H Shoemaker, UI-Crop Sciences
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
535 Randall Road  St Charles, IL  60174
630-584-7254; FAX-584-4610
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