Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting
Rye: If you have good soil and live in S. Calif, those trees will get bigger than 7-9' and (likely) occupy more space than 6' between trees. And while you seem determined to use a wire trellis, you should know that wires are a pain. Or as the trees grow and fill in their space limbs/foliage will make pruning difficult. Reason. Invariably you'll get your pruners into the wire and ruin both pruners and possibly the wire. Further every time you want to get on the other side of this trellis you'll need to walk around the end of the row. And on a hot (100 degree plus) day, this sort of stuff is unwanted. I'd suggest you use a single post for each tree and simply anchor (tie) each tree to the post. Ed..former grower, now too old to think about trellis...S. Ind... 2011/2/19 > > Hello, newbie here. > > I am planting a small high density orchard. I have bareroots on order on > m9 nic-29. Due to arrive in the next week or three. I'm planting with 6 > foot in-row spacing and looking to maintain a tree height of about 7-9 feet > on 4 (or 5 if they look like they want to grow to 9 feet) wire trellises for > a hedgegrow with the main branches latticed similar to this photo: > > http://resources.cas.psu.edu/TFPG/apple_trellis/images/slide33.gif > > Two ways I can think to accomplish this: > > 1) after planting, cut the scion to about 22 inches (from ground level) and > train two leaders to grow 45 degrees North and South respectively. > 2) initially plant trees at a 45 degree angle, leaning to the North, > training a low shoot to grow 45 degrees to the South. > > I lean towards option 1) but being a newbie I'm hesitant to cut them so > short. However, that's what it looks like was done in the photo. Can a > newly planted bareroot handle being cut to 22 inches? Also they will be in > grow tubes to protect from the critters. Just wanted to mention that if it > matters that only about 3 inches of wood will get a full day's sun > initially. > > Thank you so much for your consideration. > > Rye Hefley > Future Farmer's Market Vendor > Private orchard in So. Cal. > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.net > http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop > > ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting
Personally I would take my money and do something else with it rather than start an orchard. Being in the farming business is an honorable profession, but there are easiler ways to lose money. Tommy Bruguiere Dickie Bros. Orchard - Original Message - From: Ed Fackler To: Apple-crop discussion list Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting Rye: If you have good soil and live in S. Calif, those trees will get bigger than 7-9' and (likely) occupy more space than 6' between trees. And while you seem determined to use a wire trellis, you should know that wires are a pain. Or as the trees grow and fill in their space limbs/foliage will make pruning difficult. Reason. Invariably you'll get your pruners into the wire and ruin both pruners and possibly the wire. Further every time you want to get on the other side of this trellis you'll need to walk around the end of the row. And on a hot (100 degree plus) day, this sort of stuff is unwanted. I'd suggest you use a single post for each tree and simply anchor (tie) each tree to the post. Ed..former grower, now too old to think about trellis...S. Ind... 2011/2/19 Hello, newbie here. I am planting a small high density orchard. I have bareroots on order on m9 nic-29. Due to arrive in the next week or three. I'm planting with 6 foot in-row spacing and looking to maintain a tree height of about 7-9 feet on 4 (or 5 if they look like they want to grow to 9 feet) wire trellises for a hedgegrow with the main branches latticed similar to this photo: http://resources.cas.psu.edu/TFPG/apple_trellis/images/slide33.gif Two ways I can think to accomplish this: 1) after planting, cut the scion to about 22 inches (from ground level) and train two leaders to grow 45 degrees North and South respectively. 2) initially plant trees at a 45 degree angle, leaning to the North, training a low shoot to grow 45 degrees to the South. I lean towards option 1) but being a newbie I'm hesitant to cut them so short. However, that's what it looks like was done in the photo. Can a newly planted bareroot handle being cut to 22 inches? Also they will be in grow tubes to protect from the critters. Just wanted to mention that if it matters that only about 3 inches of wood will get a full day's sun initially. Thank you so much for your consideration. Rye Hefley Future Farmer's Market Vendor Private orchard in So. Cal. ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting
With a 6' by 12" to 14" spacing I think you'd have less labor input just going with a simple central leader tree. You can manipulate the central leader to keep it weak by bending to keep the tree height down. Single stake for each tree, no trellis. The training system you show in the picture looks like something a researcher would do, too much work for too little return. Bill Fleming Montana State University Western Ag Research Center 580 Quast Ln Corvallis, Montana From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Tommy and Sandy Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 10:16 PM To: Apple-crop discussion list Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting Personally I would take my money and do something else with it rather than start an orchard. Being in the farming business is an honorable profession, but there are easiler ways to lose money. Tommy Bruguiere Dickie Bros. Orchard - Original Message - From: Ed Fackler<mailto:ed.fack...@gmail.com> To: Apple-crop discussion list<mailto:apple-crop@virtualorchard.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting Rye: If you have good soil and live in S. Calif, those trees will get bigger than 7-9' and (likely) occupy more space than 6' between trees. And while you seem determined to use a wire trellis, you should know that wires are a pain. Or as the trees grow and fill in their space limbs/foliage will make pruning difficult. Reason. Invariably you'll get your pruners into the wire and ruin both pruners and possibly the wire. Further every time you want to get on the other side of this trellis you'll need to walk around the end of the row. And on a hot (100 degree plus) day, this sort of stuff is unwanted. I'd suggest you use a single post for each tree and simply anchor (tie) each tree to the post. Ed..former grower, now too old to think about trellis...S. Ind... 2011/2/19 mailto:ducn...@aol.com>> Hello, newbie here. I am planting a small high density orchard. I have bareroots on order on m9 nic-29. Due to arrive in the next week or three. I'm planting with 6 foot in-row spacing and looking to maintain a tree height of about 7-9 feet on 4 (or 5 if they look like they want to grow to 9 feet) wire trellises for a hedgegrow with the main branches latticed similar to this photo: http://resources.cas.psu.edu/TFPG/apple_trellis/images/slide33.gif Two ways I can think to accomplish this: 1) after planting, cut the scion to about 22 inches (from ground level) and train two leaders to grow 45 degrees North and South respectively. 2) initially plant trees at a 45 degree angle, leaning to the North, training a low shoot to grow 45 degrees to the South. I lean towards option 1) but being a newbie I'm hesitant to cut them so short. However, that's what it looks like was done in the photo. Can a newly planted bareroot handle being cut to 22 inches? Also they will be in grow tubes to protect from the critters. Just wanted to mention that if it matters that only about 3 inches of wood will get a full day's sun initially. Thank you so much for your consideration. Rye Hefley Future Farmer's Market Vendor Private orchard in So. Cal. ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net<mailto:apple-crop@virtualorchard.net> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting
Rye, A little background on the picture you are referring to: I am pretty sure this picture comes from the Penn State Horticulture research farm and is a row of York Imperial on M.9 rootstock planted in 1976. The row was removed at the end of the 2002 growing season. The trees were trained as a Delbard Cross on the Penn State Low Trellis Hedgerow system developed by Loren Tukey. The Delbard Cross has been used primarily for tip bearing varieties and the Oblique Palmette system for non tip bearing and spur type trees, see http://resources.cas.psu.edu/TFPG/apple_trellis/slide8.htm. The Oblique Palmette is similar to the Delbard Cross but maintains a central leader. The trees were maintained at 6 ft with four wires placed at 1.5, 3, 4.5 and 6 ft. The original protocal calls for planting whips and heading at 18" to promote branching. With feathered trees now available from nurseries, I have been placing the first wire higher from the ground, 2-2.5 ft so that the feathers can be retained and trained to the wires. This will decrease the amount of time to initial cropping. The other wires are still maintained at 1.5 ft intervals above the bottom wire. These systems tend to give high quality fruit and are easy to get spray coverage and maintain after initial training but tend to have lower yields than some of the other high density systems due to its low height (less fruiting canopy). Don At 02:16 PM 2/19/2011, ducn...@aol.com wrote: Hello, newbie here. I am planting a small high density orchard. I have bareroots on order on m9 nic-29. Due to arrive in the next week or three. I'm planting with 6 foot in-row spacing and looking to maintain a tree height of about 7-9 feet on 4 (or 5 if they look like they want to grow to 9 feet) wire trellises for a hedgegrow with the main branches latticed similar to this photo: http://resources.cas.psu.edu/TFPG/apple_trellis/images/slide33.gif Two ways I can think to accomplish this: 1) after planting, cut the scion to about 22 inches (from ground level) and train two leaders to grow 45 degrees North and South respectively. 2) initially plant trees at a 45 degree angle, leaning to the North, training a low shoot to grow 45 degrees to the South. I lean towards option 1) but being a newbie I'm hesitant to cut them so short. However, that's what it looks like was done in the photo. Can a newly planted bareroot handle being cut to 22 inches? Also they will be in grow tubes to protect from the critters. Just wanted to mention that if it matters that only about 3 inches of wood will get a full day's sun initially. Thank you so much for your consideration. Rye Hefley Future Farmer's Market Vendor Private orchard in So. Cal. ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop *** Donald E Smith Department of Horticulture e-mail:des...@psu.edu The Pennsylvania State University 102 Tyson Building University Park,PA 16802 814-692-7605 *** ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting
Don, Thank you for your input and the .pdf (and to all others who posted). I considered the super high density central leader system as covered in the same set of slides from Penn State, but steered away due to the double to triple initial investment in trees and posts as I understand I would have been planting at 2-3 foot spacing on a less vigorous rootstock. Even at 6 foot spacing the the cost of posts was higher than trellis. So those were my decision points. Opted instead for a rootstock that could fill in the row at 6 foot spacing for the solid hedgegrow. Perhaps a newbie mistake, but I put the trellises in as something to do while growing cover and waiting for the trees to bud at the nursery. I don't see that as much of a problem due to the size of the orchard and the fact that I will not have access to any automated planting equipment anyway, trading time for expense. That means my bottom wire height is already set at 18". Also, I used metal line posts which have cut-outs for the wire path at 22" apart. Thanks also for confirming that it is not unusual to head a tree that short. That was my biggest concern, not wanting to kill the trees. Would like to discuss more about the Delbard Cross vs. the Oblique Palmette. Between the two, I was drawn to Delbard because it seems to provide more "main branching" wood (for lack of knowing what you call it. Oblique did seem to have the advantage of more beginning height, but have the impression that more main branching wood would be better. Is this incorrect or not an issue, or related the the tip bearing? Also, my thinking is (and also mentioned in the .pdf) that it will be hit and miss relying on the feathered trees to start low enough lower scaffolding. The concept of tip bearing vs non-tip bearing is new to me, I guess I need more research. I agree with some of the other posters, the training does look incredibly daunting which if it turns out better to go with Oblique, then is at least somewhat less daunting. Again, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. Rye Hefley Future Farmer's Market Vendor Private orchard in So. Cal. -Original Message- From: Donald E. Smith To: Apple-crop discussion list Sent: Thu, Feb 24, 2011 7:16 am Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting Rye, A little background on the picture you are referring to: I ampretty sure this picture comes from the Penn State Horticulture researchfarm and is a row of York Imperial on M.9 rootstock planted in1976. The row was removed at the end of the 2002 growingseason. The trees were trained as a Delbard Cross on the Penn StateLow Trellis Hedgerow system developed by Loren Tukey. The DelbardCross has been used primarily for tip bearing varieties and the ObliquePalmette system for non tip bearing and spur type trees, seehttp://resources.cas.psu.edu/TFPG/apple_trellis/slide8.htm. TheOblique Palmette is similar to the Delbard Cross but maintains a centralleader. The trees were maintained at 6 ft with four wires placed at1.5, 3, 4.5 and 6 ft. The original protocal calls for plantingwhips and heading at 18" to promote branching. With featheredtrees now available from nurseries, I have been placing the first wirehigher from the ground, 2-2.5 ft so that the feathers can beretained and trained to the wires. This will decrease the amount oftime to initial cropping. The other wires are still maintained at1.5 ft intervals above the bottom wire. These systems tend to givehigh quality fruit and are easy to get spray coverage and maintain afterinitial training but tend to have lower yields than some of the otherhigh density systems due to its low height (less fruitingcanopy). Don At 02:16 PM 2/19/2011, ducn...@aol.com wrote: Hello, newbiehere. I am planting a small high density orchard. I have bareroots onorder on m9 nic-29. Due to arrive in the next week or three. I'm planting with 6 foot in-row spacing and looking to maintain a treeheight of about 7-9 feet on 4 (or 5 if they look like they want to growto 9 feet) wire trellises for a hedgegrow with the main branches latticedsimilar to this photo: http://resources.cas.psu.edu/TFPG/apple_trellis/images/slide33.gif Two ways I can think to accomplish this: 1) after planting, cut the scion to about 22 inches (from ground level)and train two leaders to grow 45 degrees North and Southrespectively. 2) initially plant trees at a 45 degree angle, leaning to the North,training a low shoot to grow 45 degrees to the South. I lean towards option 1) but being a newbie I'm hesitant to cut them soshort. However, that's what it looks like was done in the photo.Can a newly planted bareroot handle being cut to 22 inches? Alsothey will be in grow tubes to protect from the critters. Justwanted to mention that if it matters that only about 3 inches of woodwill get a ful
Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting
Rye - your picture shows a system that is highly regimented - excessively so for fruit production - if you want to do it to admire and enjoy, go ahead - be aware that many of these highly manipulated systems use Golden Delicious or some other variety with an agreeable growth habit - try to do that with Northern Spy or somesuch and you will experience frustration - otherwise, give yourself plenty of room and work with the tree - much better for fruit production - D On Feb 19, 2011, at 2:16 PM, ducn...@aol.com wrote: > > Hello, newbie here. > > I am planting a small high density orchard. I have bareroots on order on m9 > nic-29. Due to arrive in the next week or three. I'm planting with 6 foot > in-row spacing and looking to maintain a tree height of about 7-9 feet on 4 > (or 5 if they look like they want to grow to 9 feet) wire trellises for a > hedgegrow with the main branches latticed similar to this photo: > > http://resources.cas.psu.edu/TFPG/apple_trellis/images/slide33.gif > > Two ways I can think to accomplish this: > > 1) after planting, cut the scion to about 22 inches (from ground level) and > train two leaders to grow 45 degrees North and South respectively. > 2) initially plant trees at a 45 degree angle, leaning to the North, training > a low shoot to grow 45 degrees to the South. > > I lean towards option 1) but being a newbie I'm hesitant to cut them so > short. However, that's what it looks like was done in the photo. Can a newly > planted bareroot handle being cut to 22 inches? Also they will be in grow > tubes to protect from the critters. Just wanted to mention that if it > matters that only about 3 inches of wood will get a full day's sun initially. > > Thank you so much for your consideration. > > Rye Hefley > Future Farmer's Market Vendor > Private orchard in So. Cal. > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.net > http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting
Thanks David! I have to agree. Don's post is steering me to central leader. I'm glad I asked my question to the group and got some feedback I didn't know I needed. -Original Message- From: David Doud To: Apple-crop discussion list Sent: Sun, Feb 27, 2011 9:09 am Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Training goal as it relates to initial planting Rye - your picture shows a system that is highly regimented - excessively so for fruit production - if you want to do it to admire and enjoy, go ahead - be aware that many of these highly manipulated systems use Golden Delicious or some other variety with an agreeable growth habit - try to do that with Northern Spy or somesuch and you will experience frustration - otherwise, give yourself plenty of room and work with the tree - much better for fruit production - D On Feb 19, 2011, at 2:16 PM, ducn...@aol.com wrote: Hello, newbie here. I am planting a small high density orchard. I have bareroots on order on m9 nic-29. Due to arrive in the next week or three. I'm planting with 6 foot in-row spacing and looking to maintain a tree height of about 7-9 feet on 4 (or 5 if they look like they want to grow to 9 feet) wire trellises for a hedgegrow with the main branches latticed similar to this photo: http://resources.cas.psu.edu/TFPG/apple_trellis/images/slide33.gif Two ways I can think to accomplish this: 1) after planting, cut the scion to about 22 inches (from ground level) and train two leaders to grow 45 degrees North and South respectively. 2) initially plant trees at a 45 degree angle, leaning to the North, training a low shoot to grow 45 degrees to the South. I lean towards option 1) but being a newbie I'm hesitant to cut them so short. However, that's what it looks like was done in the photo. Can a newly planted bareroot handle being cut to 22 inches? Also they will be in grow tubes to protect from the critters. Just wanted to mention that if it matters that only about 3 inches of wood will get a full day's sun initially. Thank you so much for your consideration. Rye Hefley Future Farmer's Market Vendor Private orchard in So. Cal. ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ pple-crop mailing list pple-c...@virtualorchard.net ttp://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
