Re: [arch-general] Display Manager rc.d scripts
Am Mon, 09 May 2011 17:55:06 -0400 schrieb David Rosenstrauch : > Not true. You could fix this (rare) situation by booting into single > user mode rather than a LiveCD. This was already explained by Tom and discussed before. ;-) > Not sure I see why the rc scripts should be removed to handle this > rare corner case ... I never said that the rc scripts should be removed, but the inittab method must also be kept. It was someone else (the OP) who asked for removing them. Or do you mean removing the rc script temporarily from the DAEMONS array if such an issue happens? This can be necessary if xorg fails for any reason and doesn't allow you to switch to the text console. This is not really a corner case. It happened to me not very often, but several times. Heiko
Re: [arch-general] Display Manager rc.d scripts
Am Tue, 10 May 2011 01:32:19 +0300 schrieb Grigorios Bouzakis : > If they are unsupported then yes, users who want to use them should be > writing them themselves. Who says that they are unsupported? They are just not recommended as far as I know. And why shouldn't they be installed by the packages? Do they hurt you? You don't need to use them if you don't need them. But why should everybody who wants to use them write his own rc script? Heiko
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
On 5/9/11, Jan Steffens wrote: > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 10:58 PM, C Anthony Risinger > wrote: >> sooo, how can you have two directories open then? i see that it works >> by clicking on the desktop directories twice; couldn't the icon be >> made to launch nautilus in the same way (however that is)? > > Ctrl+Click on the launcher will open a new window. As will Right Click > → New Window. > Middle Click on the launcher will open a new window on a new workspace. > Are there keyboard alternatives to any of these clicking options? Also, can gnome-tweak-tool be used without gnome-shell running? I had to uninstall gnome-shell because it was extremely inaccessible to the Orca screen reader. I understand this a11y problem will not be resolved until gnome 3.2 is released .
Re: [arch-general] Display Manager rc.d scripts
Rémy Oudompheng wrote: > On 2011/5/8 Grigorios Bouzakis wrote: >> Hello, >> can anyone think of a reason the rc.d scripts are added to kdm, gdm and >> slim? They are not recommended by anyone & they are to be blame for >> occasional weird problems. The standard and IMO only way is to start >> them from inittab. >> They dont come from upstream & i dont know when they were added, i >> remember them being there ever since i started using Arch, they may >> come from CRUX or something. >> I am considering requesting them removal from all display managers. >> In [0] Pierre said some people want to keep them for backwards >> compatibility. Backwards compatibility is desired only when something >> works correctly. Thoughts? > > I never used inittab to launch a display manager and always used > rc-scripts, and I will never switch unless I go for systemd. I don't > understand the point of removing these scripts, unless you want users > to write them themselves. If they are unsupported then yes, users who want to use them should be writing them themselves. > As far as I know, most major distributions > that don't use systemd ship rc-scripts for the display managers. Are they telling their users not to use them too? > Moreover, rc-scripts are distribution specific and I don't see how > they can be provided by upstream. Right, for the scripts upstream is Arch and Arch is advising users not to use them. -- () against html e-mail | usenet & email communication netiquette /\ www.asciiribbon.org | www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
Re: [arch-general] Display Manager rc.d scripts
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:55 PM, David Rosenstrauch wrote: > On 05/08/2011 02:15 PM, Heiko Baums wrote: > >> With the rc scripts it's only possible to having started xorg at boot >> time if the script is in the DAEMONS array. So if xorg fails for a >> reason and doesn't allow you to switch to console you need a LiveCD to >> first remove it from the DAEMONS to be able to use the system again. >> > > Not true. You could fix this (rare) situation by booting into single user > mode rather than a LiveCD. > > Not sure I see why the rc scripts should be removed to handle this rare > corner case ... > > DR > I am going to agree, the removal of the rc scripts would not benefit this situation, booting into runlevel one, single user mode of init=/bin/bash can all solve this problem, a LiveCD is VERY rarely required for system recovery. I have been using the rc scripts for the display managers for over 6 years and NEVER had a problem with them. I would hate to see them leave because some users did not know how to boot into an alternative runlevel. -Thomas S Hatch
Re: [arch-general] Display Manager rc.d scripts
On 05/08/2011 02:15 PM, Heiko Baums wrote: With the rc scripts it's only possible to having started xorg at boot time if the script is in the DAEMONS array. So if xorg fails for a reason and doesn't allow you to switch to console you need a LiveCD to first remove it from the DAEMONS to be able to use the system again. Not true. You could fix this (rare) situation by booting into single user mode rather than a LiveCD. Not sure I see why the rc scripts should be removed to handle this rare corner case ... DR
Re: [arch-general] Display Manager rc.d scripts
On 05/08/2011 01:19 PM, Grigorios Bouzakis wrote: Hello, can anyone think of a reason the rc.d scripts are added to kdm, gdm and slim? They are not recommended by anyone& they are to be blame for occasional weird problems. The standard and IMO only way is to start them from inittab. They dont come from upstream& i dont know when they were added, i remember them being there ever since i started using Arch, they may come from CRUX or something. I am considering requesting them removal from all display managers. In [0] Pierre said some people want to keep them for backwards compatibility. Backwards compatibility is desired only when something works correctly. Thoughts? [0]: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/20109 I've been running the various display managers (kdm, slim) via the rc script for years now, and haven't run into any problems. Can you clarify what the issue is? DR
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 10:58 PM, C Anthony Risinger wrote: > sooo, how can you have two directories open then? i see that it works > by clicking on the desktop directories twice; couldn't the icon be > made to launch nautilus in the same way (however that is)? Ctrl+Click on the launcher will open a new window. As will Right Click → New Window. Middle Click on the launcher will open a new window on a new workspace.
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Ionut Biru wrote: > On 05/09/2011 11:11 PM, Guillermo Leira wrote: >> >> You can install gnome-tweak-tool. When you launch it, the last option is >> "File Manager". Then you can select "Have file manager handle the >> desktop". >> Logout, login, and your icons and folders should be back to your desktop. >> It >> works almost as it used to. > > i don't really encourage anyone to do that when using gnome-shell. With > gnome-shell only ONE instance of the application can run and enabling the > desktop to be handled by nautilus will mean that is running in the > background and you cannot click on the icon to launch it again. ah ... slightly annoying. thanks for that. i had it enabled for all my machines because i like nautilus-driven desktop, but this is subtle and i didn't notice the effect it would have ... sooo, how can you have two directories open then? i see that it works by clicking on the desktop directories twice; couldn't the icon be made to launch nautilus in the same way (however that is)? C Anthony
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
On 05/09/2011 11:11 PM, Guillermo Leira wrote: -Mensaje original- De: arch-general-boun...@archlinux.org [mailto:arch-general- boun...@archlinux.org] En nombre de Steve Holmes Enviado el: lunes, 09 de mayo de 2011 21:46 Para: General Discussion about Arch Linux Asunto: Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3 Thanks for telling me about the desktop being gone. I really wondered and am a bit surprised as I thought most people valued and used a desktop area quite a bit. Yes, I opened up my home directory from the places and then opened the desktop folder from there. Actually, I think my desktop was actually a top level folder in my places menu but still, not the same. In fact, I have had launchers on the desktop in the past but I guess I could get them on there again if I wanted. It's just that the desktop was typically addressable from a single keystroke before. Well whatever... I've heard comments like that before about gnome getting less and less configurable; pretty soon, it will be like that other windows operating system out there. You can install gnome-tweak-tool. When you launch it, the last option is "File Manager". Then you can select "Have file manager handle the desktop". Logout, login, and your icons and folders should be back to your desktop. It works almost as it used to. Best Regards, Guillermo Leira i don't really encourage anyone to do that when using gnome-shell. With gnome-shell only ONE instance of the application can run and enabling the desktop to be handled by nautilus will mean that is running in the background and you cannot click on the icon to launch it again. -- Ionuț
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
> -Mensaje original- > De: arch-general-boun...@archlinux.org [mailto:arch-general- > boun...@archlinux.org] En nombre de Steve Holmes > Enviado el: lunes, 09 de mayo de 2011 21:46 > Para: General Discussion about Arch Linux > Asunto: Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3 > > Thanks for telling me about the desktop being gone. I really wondered > and am a bit surprised as I thought most people valued and used a > desktop area quite a bit. Yes, I opened up my home directory from the > places and then opened the desktop folder from there. Actually, I > think my desktop was actually a top level folder in my places menu but > still, not the same. In fact, I have had launchers on the desktop in > the past but I guess I could get them on there again if I wanted. > It's just that the desktop was typically addressable from a single > keystroke before. Well whatever... > > I've heard comments like that before about gnome getting less and less > configurable; pretty soon, it will be like that other windows > operating system out there. You can install gnome-tweak-tool. When you launch it, the last option is "File Manager". Then you can select "Have file manager handle the desktop". Logout, login, and your icons and folders should be back to your desktop. It works almost as it used to. Best Regards, Guillermo Leira
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
On Monday, May 09, 2011 14:46:11 Steve Holmes wrote: > Thanks for telling me about the desktop being gone. I really wondered > and am a bit surprised as I thought most people valued and used a > desktop area quite a bit. Yes, I opened up my home directory from the > places and then opened the desktop folder from there. Actually, I > think my desktop was actually a top level folder in my places menu but > still, not the same. In fact, I have had launchers on the desktop in > the past but I guess I could get them on there again if I wanted. > It's just that the desktop was typically addressable from a single > keystroke before. Well whatever... > > I've heard comments like that before about gnome getting less and less > configurable; pretty soon, it will be like that other windows > operating system out there. Though the direction of GNOME where it's getting less and less features and functions isn't something Arch can fix, I agree. It's part of why I like KDE, which is incredibly flexible and loaded. A bit large, though.
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
Thanks for telling me about the desktop being gone. I really wondered and am a bit surprised as I thought most people valued and used a desktop area quite a bit. Yes, I opened up my home directory from the places and then opened the desktop folder from there. Actually, I think my desktop was actually a top level folder in my places menu but still, not the same. In fact, I have had launchers on the desktop in the past but I guess I could get them on there again if I wanted. It's just that the desktop was typically addressable from a single keystroke before. Well whatever... I've heard comments like that before about gnome getting less and less configurable; pretty soon, it will be like that other windows operating system out there.
Re: [arch-general] Display Manager rc.d scripts
Am Mon, 9 May 2011 20:41:31 +0200 schrieb Rémy Oudompheng : > I never used inittab to launch a display manager and always used > rc-scripts, and I will never switch unless I go for systemd. I don't > understand the point of removing these scripts, unless you want users > to write them themselves. As far as I know, most major distributions > that don't use systemd ship rc-scripts for the display managers. Regarding Gentoo this is not quite correct. At least Gentoo is also using an rc script to start X at boot time but this rc script is started in its own runlevel if I recall correctly. So Gentoo uses a mixture of the inittab/runlevel and the rc script method. But I guess this mixture wouldn't work and is not necessary in Arch Linux. Heiko
Re: [arch-general] Display Manager rc.d scripts
On 2011/5/8 Grigorios Bouzakis wrote: > Hello, > can anyone think of a reason the rc.d scripts are added to kdm, gdm and > slim? They are not recommended by anyone & they are to be blame for > occasional weird problems. The standard and IMO only way is to start > them from inittab. > They dont come from upstream & i dont know when they were added, i > remember them being there ever since i started using Arch, they may > come from CRUX or something. > I am considering requesting them removal from all display managers. > In [0] Pierre said some people want to keep them for backwards > compatibility. Backwards compatibility is desired only when something > works correctly. Thoughts? I never used inittab to launch a display manager and always used rc-scripts, and I will never switch unless I go for systemd. I don't understand the point of removing these scripts, unless you want users to write them themselves. As far as I know, most major distributions that don't use systemd ship rc-scripts for the display managers. Moreover, rc-scripts are distribution specific and I don't see how they can be provided by upstream. -- Rémy.
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
Am 09.05.2011 19:57, schrieb Yaro Kasear: On Monday, May 09, 2011 12:53:55 Mauro Santos wrote: On 09-05-2011 18:45, Filip Filipov wrote: [...] from what i see accessibility, is broken a lot in gnome 3 and i hope they will fix that in 3.2 A little bit off-topic, but how often is the 'Fun statistics' [1] changing . I ask because I think it is interesting what impact Gnome3 has. [1] https://www.archlinux.de/?page=FunStatistics Even more off-topic, aren't percentages supposed to add to 100%? :p How conformist of you! :O It just counts what packages people have installed. As most users have more than one program in any of those categories, the sum percentages is over 100. I wonder who is represented by the 0.07% not using bash though :)
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
On Monday, May 09, 2011 12:53:55 Mauro Santos wrote: > On 09-05-2011 18:45, Filip Filipov wrote: > >> [...] from what i see accessibility, is broken a lot in gnome 3 and i > >> hope they will fix that in 3.2 > > > > A little bit off-topic, but how often is the 'Fun statistics' [1] > > changing . I ask because I think it is interesting what impact Gnome3 > > has. > > > > > > [1] https://www.archlinux.de/?page=FunStatistics > > Even more off-topic, aren't percentages supposed to add to 100%? :p How conformist of you! :O
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
On 09-05-2011 18:45, Filip Filipov wrote: >> >> >> [...] from what i see accessibility, is broken a lot in gnome 3 and i hope >> they will fix that in 3.2 >> >> > A little bit off-topic, but how often is the 'Fun statistics' [1] changing > . I ask because I think it is interesting what impact Gnome3 has. > > > [1] https://www.archlinux.de/?page=FunStatistics Even more off-topic, aren't percentages supposed to add to 100%? :p -- Mauro Santos
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
> > > [...] from what i see accessibility, is broken a lot in gnome 3 and i hope > they will fix that in 3.2 > > A little bit off-topic, but how often is the 'Fun statistics' [1] changing . I ask because I think it is interesting what impact Gnome3 has. [1] https://www.archlinux.de/?page=FunStatistics -- This mail was sent using 100% recycled electrons
Re: [arch-general] Gnome 3, a bug?
Am 06.05.2011 15:22, schrieb Steve Holmes: Hey, I also just installed / upgraded to gnome3 and have run into some strange problems with keyboard navigation. First off, I cannot get into the desktop; also I can't find a reliable way to get into the system menu. Keep in mind here, I'm totally blind and do not use the mouse. I rely strictly on use of the keyboard to navigate around the environment. With gnome2, one can use Ctrl+Alt+d to open the desktop from anywhere in gnome and the system menu was simply part of the main menu structure. Now the application and places menus are side by side but no system menu. Also, the key combination to focus the desktop doesn't work. In fact, when I use the Ctrl+Alt+Tab key combination to cycle focus between the top and botom panels, there is no desktop there either. In gnome2, the desktop was also included in that rotation. Any ideas on how to fix this? Is this another sign of broken functionality in gnome3? Hi Steve, I just had a look on Gnome’s website to see the status of their accessibility efforts for Gnome 3. It seems like Gnome Shell is currently not meant to be usable with a screen reader. It is on the roadmap for Gnome 3.2 though. As for your question about the behaviour of the desktop and panel: Gnome 3 no longer has icons on the desktop enabled by default. The concept of the panels also changed a lot. There no longer is a real bottom panel, all it offers are the notifications and icons that used to be in the system tray in Gnome 2. The taskbar is completely gone now, you can access your open applications by pressing the windows key and type in the name of the application. If the fallback mode works for you, I would just stick with it. It might also be a good idea addressing your questions according to Gnome’s accessibility directly to the upstream mailing list, as few people here have experience with it. The URL for signing up is http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -Gunnar
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
On 05/09/2011 07:03 PM, Steve Holmes wrote: After upgrading my box to GNOME 3 last week, I can't seem to find the desktop anywhere on my gnome setup. I use the keyboard exclusively for navigating around so I would normally use Ctrl+Alt+d to open the desktop for keyboard focus. Alas I cannot do that any more. Also, with prior versions of Gnome, pressing Ctrl+Alt+Tab would toggle you through the Bottom Panel, Top Panel, and the Desktop. Now it only toggles between the top and bottom panels. Has the desktop, as we know it, gone away? At the moment, I am using fallback mode because gnome-shell is completely broken as far as screen reader accessibility is concerned. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated; thanks. is there but you have to change a bit your way of using it. For example you can hit the super key, default being the windows key and start typing the name of the application you want to start, like nautilus. from what i see accessibility, is broken a lot in gnome 3 and i hope they will fix that in 3.2 -- Ionuț
Re: [arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 09:03:21AM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote: > Has the desktop, as we know it, gone away? At the moment, I am > using fallback mode because gnome-shell is completely broken as far > as screen reader accessibility is concerned. GNOME 3 has no desktop at all. You can start nautilus and you will have it, but I, for one, think it does not comply with The GNOME 3 Way (no configurability, no usability, made for TOTAL IDIOTS.) -- -- Kwpolska (http://kwpolska.co.cc) stop html mail | always bottom-post www.asciiribbon.org | www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16 | Arch Linux x86_64, zsh, mutt, vim. pgpH3VH12kSHb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] makepkg openjd & ca-certificates-java
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:32 AM, Pierre Schmitz wrote: > On Sun, 8 May 2011 18:16:13 -0600, Javier Vasquez wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I've tried building openjdk, but it has a make dependency upon >> ca-certificates-java, and ca-certificates-jave also has a make >> dependency upon openjdk: >> >> http://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/plain/openjdk6/repos/extra-x86_64/PKGBUILD >> http://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/plain/ca-certificates-java/repos/extra-any/PKGBUILD >> >> How is that resolved when building? >> >> Reson for asking is building on non x86 architecture... >> >> Thanks, > > Technically openjdk does not depend on ca-certificates-java. I can build it without ca-certificates-java then? Good to know, :-) Thanks, -- Javier.
[arch-general] Cannot Find Desktop in GNOME3
After upgrading my box to GNOME 3 last week, I can't seem to find the desktop anywhere on my gnome setup. I use the keyboard exclusively for navigating around so I would normally use Ctrl+Alt+d to open the desktop for keyboard focus. Alas I cannot do that any more. Also, with prior versions of Gnome, pressing Ctrl+Alt+Tab would toggle you through the Bottom Panel, Top Panel, and the Desktop. Now it only toggles between the top and bottom panels. Has the desktop, as we know it, gone away? At the moment, I am using fallback mode because gnome-shell is completely broken as far as screen reader accessibility is concerned. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated; thanks.
Re: [arch-general] makepkg openjd & ca-certificates-java
On Sun, 8 May 2011 18:16:13 -0600, Javier Vasquez wrote: > Hi, > > I've tried building openjdk, but it has a make dependency upon > ca-certificates-java, and ca-certificates-jave also has a make > dependency upon openjdk: > > http://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/plain/openjdk6/repos/extra-x86_64/PKGBUILD > http://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/plain/ca-certificates-java/repos/extra-any/PKGBUILD > > How is that resolved when building? > > Reson for asking is building on non x86 architecture... > > Thanks, Technically openjdk does not depend on ca-certificates-java. -- Pierre Schmitz, https://users.archlinux.de/~pierre
