Re: [arch-general] Dual boot Arch with Windows 10

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 27/05/19 at 11:08am, Ram Kumar via arch-general wrote:
> Hello Archers,
> I am planning to install Arch on a dual boot with windows 10. But i have
> read online that on a dual boot with windows 10, the bootloader will
> disappear after a windows update and can be cured only by using a live usb.
> They say that it is for general linux dual boot and not specific to our
> Arch. Before trying for myself, i would like to know whether anyone here
> have faced it before, if so, what is the better solution to it?.
> 
> I need windows too because of ansys package that i use.. could you please
> help me with this?
> 
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Windows_changes_boot_order

/J

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Re: [arch-general] Contributions to the wiki - Are user contributions a thing of the past?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 23/08/17 at 08:54pm, David C. Rankin wrote:

Archdevs,

 When I see an wiki page that is unclear or could benefit from a small
addition, for the past 7+ years I've tried to do my part, and I was happy to
do so.

 But, consistently, for the past year or so, any user contributions to the
wiki are systematically struct from the pages.

 The latest being a small addition to the multilib page to make clear that
following repo addition and update you need to explicitly install the wanted
multilib packages. Following the directions on the page as it exists gets you
nowhere, but implies that it is all that needs to be done.

 Again, as has been the form over the past year or, the additions are erased
and a vague reference mentioning the additional steps are covered in an
ancillary page is given as the reason.


Actually, the reason for rolling back the edits was much more clear:
the information is contained in a tip. Your examples were not adding
anything to the page other than character count.


 As a P.E. and Attorney, I know documentation. I know when it's clear, and
when it's not clear. If the point of the wiki is to provide clear information
to users, then why are all improvements systematically struck?

 Yes, brevity is a good thing, but not at the expense of clarity...


Lawyers are hardly known for either their brevity or their clarity.


 Does Arch still want user contribution to the wiki? If so, systematically
deleting the contributions that users take the time to make, isn't going to
promote further contribution. Why bother, more than likely it will just be
erased


Contributions *are* welcome. That doesn't mean that they will
automatically be accepted. Acknowledging that a wiki is a collaborative
effort, and all that entails (often at the expense of individual egos),
is also a helpful quality to bring to the project.

/J

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Re: [arch-general] Cannot post to Forums - Bad HTTP_REFERER??

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 12/03/17 at 02:52pm, David C. Rankin wrote:

All,

 Attempting to post details to
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=224028 from FF 45.8esr, I get:

Bad HTTP_REFERER. You were referred to this page from an unauthorized source.
If the problem persists please make sure that 'Base URL' is correctly set in
Admin/Options and that you are visiting the forum by navigating to that URL.
More information regarding the referrer check can be found in the FluxBB
documentation.

 I've never had problems before, but haven't posted in months, what to try?

Searching: 
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=220394

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=220738
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=221382
etc…

/J

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Re: [arch-general] Inquiry about research paper

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 21/02/17 at 06:44pm, Maxwell Anselm via arch-general wrote:


Not about systemd, but about your request. This is the wrong list for
such a request and apart from this, it's the wrong time to ask those
questions. You are years too late with those questions.



I agree. This would be better suited for the Arch forums. We have a section
for general GNU/Linux discussion

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewforum.php?id=20


I disagree. People wanting to rehash this issue can respond to the OP
off list. 


/J

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Re: [arch-general] Acount banned in the wiki and also #archlinux-wiki

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 03/01/17 at 07:35pm, Diego Viola via arch-general wrote:

Because I noticed the #bitcoin community about a troll disrupting the
following article/discussion and spreading lies/FUD about bitcoin.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Talk:Bitcoin

This kind of operator abuse is getting ridiculous in the Arch Linux community.



It is called brigading[0] and it is the activity of trolls and
malcontents; neither of whom are welcome in the community.

You had previously been warned, now you can live with the consequences
of your actions.

0. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brigading

/J

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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 02/10/16 at 09:51am, David C. Rankin wrote:

The maintenance requirements were no greater or less than any of the
constituent pages.

This is not true. 


Regardless of what the true motivations for the current Arch devs are in
removing the Beginner's Guide, I would recommend it be restored (even in the
verbatim state it was in when it was deleted would be fine). 


This isn't going to happen.


I wonder how Allan would view the matter.


He has already made it pretty clear what he thinks:


Anyone else who replies to this thread will be stuck in the moderation
queue (which no-one checks).


The decision has been made. Move on.

/J

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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 08:16pm, Kyle Terrien via arch-general wrote:

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:00:53 +1200
Jason Ryan via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

Then we are in agreement; the goal is to provide people with what they
need and to encourage them to explore in more depth, or for edge
cases, the official documentation.


Then I think I misinterpreted the snark as seriousness in your post
yesterday.  I apologize.


No need to apologise (but the fact that you did is a testament to your
character); I was mostly typing for the people that read the ML but are
not necessarily contributing to this discussion. I think it is important
that on issues around our core values we are quite resolute. 


Cheers,

/J

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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 05:55pm, Kyle Terrien via arch-general wrote:

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 18:16:27 +1200
Jason Ryan via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

Arch has from the start been clear about its goals and intentions.
I'll quote from a section of the wiki that people seem much less
familiar with:

”Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more
user-friendly, Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain
user-centric. The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those
contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as
possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone
with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the
documentation, and solve their own problems.”
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux#User_centrality

/J



Yes, several people have quoted "Arch philosophy" for me.  I am
familiar with it.  I read it 3 years ago when I first installed Arch.  I
am also familiar with the fact that there are slightly different
interpretations of it.

For me, the issue is about framing the goal.  If the goal is to
"alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages", then people
will surely find a way to alienate them.  However, if your goal is to
give people a minimal amount of information and direct them to the man
pages where they can read more, then the wiki will be more inviting.

The difference is all in the framing.  I personally prefer to see the
latter because it is more optimistic and invites those interested to
help with the distro.


Then we are in agreement; the goal is to provide people with what they
need and to encourage them to explore in more depth, or for edge cases,
the official documentation.

Incidentally, that approach is documented in the talk page leading up to
and after the merge.

/J

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Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 04:50pm, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:

Rather than telling us how our community *should* work, why don't you


make some effort to learn how it actually *does* work?
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Arch_
Linux_distribution_support_ONLY

/J

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Jason,

Thank you for the link to the "Code of Conduct, etc.".

USA, 1850:
"Rather than telling us how our country *should not* have slavery, why
don't you make some effort to learn that it actually *does* have slavery?"
(And that the US Supreme Court said that is okay.)



There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but
having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online
community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one of
the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this ML but
for the community. 


Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.

/J

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Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 03:40pm, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:


3) Please do not criticize, ridicule, or discourage others from trying to
answer questions or provide other support, regardless of who is requesting
help, or how they "got here".



Rather than telling us how our community *should* work, why don't you
make some effort to learn how it actually *does* work?
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Arch_Linux_distribution_support_ONLY

/J

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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 08:47am, Martin Kühne via arch-general wrote:

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Ralf Mardorf  wrote:

Everybody is able to participate at the Arch wiki...


Ralf touches a very intriguing argument here, which might just boil
this thread down to "telling others how to structure their wiki".
As someone who hasn't looked at the guides in question in ages, I
consider this form of entertainment questionably constructive as well.


The Installation Guide is one of the few pages on the wiki that are locked and
can only be edited by the staff. Changes can be made by gathering a consensus on
the Talk page.

/J

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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 04:49am, mick wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:58:23 +1200
> Jason Ryan via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> 
> > On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:
> > >see below
> > >
> > >On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
> > >arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> > >  
> > >> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users,  
> > >
> > >I strongly agree.  
> > 
> > This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages and 
> > the
> > community provided documentation, ie., people for whom Arch is the wrong 
> > choice
> > anyway…
> > 
> > /J
> > 
> Unless you are already an arch install expert (the clear target of the 
> "Installation Guide as it stood about 15 months ago) you are unlikley to get 
> to a point where you can comfortably access the 'community provided 
> documention' let alone find examples that clarify things.

I have no idea why you introduce a straw man: the Installation Guide as
it stands now, not 15 months ago, is the subject of the discussion. And
a quick look at the history page will show you that it has changed
significantly in that time…

/J

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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 21/09/16 at 09:53pm, Kyle Terrien via arch-general wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:58:23 +1200
> Jason Ryan via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> > On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:
> > >see below
> > >
> > >On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
> > >arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> > >  
> > >> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new
> > >> users,  
> > >
> > >I strongly agree.  
> > 
> > This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man
> > pages and the community provided documentation, ie., people for whom
> > Arch is the wrong choice anyway…
> > 
> > /J
> > 
> 
> So, is making people hunt for information a ritualistic hazing?
> 
Hazing implies psychological, and often physical, harm. Please refrain
from this sort of hyperbole, it does your argument no favours and is
both unfounded and irrelevant; we are talking about installing an
operating system…

> As much as I love the Arch Wiki (and I really do because it is a great
> source of information), I don't understand why basic things like this
> change very often.  Removing the Beginner's Guide from the home page?
> This is just another Big Change made with the best of intentions.
> 
> Moving stuff around like this is like that supermarket that keeps
> reorganizing its shelves.  Everything is there, but it is in a
> different place, and you need to waste time looking for what you want.
> 
> Anecdote: when I installed Arch a few years ago, I followed both the
> Beginner's Guide and the Installation Guide simultaneously.  The duality
> was a little confusing, and I agree that if these guides can be merged
> in an elegant way, they should.
> 
> But I disagree with the "hazing" attitude.  The whole point of a wiki
> is to make information accessible.  Yes, while installing Arch for the
> first time you will definitely hunt for a lot of information.  It is a
> lot of hard work.  However, purposefully making that information harder
> to find is wrong; wikis are supposed make that job easier.
> 
See above about the “hazing attitude”. It is about simplifying the
information and making it easier to maintain. Having two guides, as I
said at the beginning of this thread, does neither prospective users nor
the wiki maintainers and good.

You seem to really be arguing for making the installation guide easier;
Arch is not intended to be easy, there are plenty of distributions that
have that goal and do it extremely well.

The current version of the wiki does make it easier, insofar as the
information is clear, organised efficiently, links to the authoritative 
source wherever possible (man pages) and contains no cruft.

What it no longer does is include lots of irrelevant information and
corner case examples, code to cut and paste and material that is
duplicated in multiple other pages on the wiki which makes it a
nightmare to maintain. That is a significant improvement.

No-one, me included, is pretending it is perfect. There is a Talk page
where people can discuss enhancements. Patches, as they say, are
welcome.

> I also think that expecting a new Arch user to know *exactly* what
> software configuration he wants is unreasonable.  I personally know
> many experienced Linux users (whom I consider far more experienced than
> myself) who can't tell you which desktop environment they prefer.
> However, they can blow your mind with their C and shell knowledge.
> 
> If/when these advanced users decide to learn more about distro innards
> and try Arch, we should welcome them, not haze them.
> 
Arch has from the start been clear about its goals and intentions. I'll
quote from a section of the wiki that people seem much less familiar
with:

”Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more user-friendly,
Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain user-centric. The
distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it,
rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is
targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a
do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and
solve their own problems.”
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux#User_centrality

/J

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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 21/09/16 at 10:46pm, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:

Where have the the most recent versions of the "real" Beginner's Guide been
saved?  And how can they be retrieved (maybe using git, for example)?


You can see an old revision here:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide=446855

/J

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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:

see below

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:


I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users,


I strongly agree.


This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages and the
community provided documentation, ie., people for whom Arch is the wrong choice
anyway…

/J

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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 20/09/16 at 01:58am, David C. Rankin wrote:

On 09/20/2016 12:00 AM, D C via arch-general wrote:

TBH, the main install guide looks almost identical to the beginner guide
that I used about two years ago, check it out.



We should consider the beginner's guide again -- it was invaluable to new and
beginner users to help them get a feel for arch. Even for those versed in Linux,
and with Arch, for the guys like me that do an install on a biennial basis, that
guide was a savior.


It was a major pain to maintain, among other things. It is far better to have a
single, authoritative source for an Arch install than two, often divergent,
guides. It requires less effort to maintain, reduces confusion about how to do a
supported install, and encourages people to understand what they are doing,
rather than hastily copy and pasting there way through an install so they can
rush to tell people they are running Arch…


Did no one want to maintain it? Why was the full beginner's guide deleted?


https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide=443725#Unification

/J


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Re: [arch-general] Mutt Compile-time Configuration

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 20/08/16 at 02:09am, Thibaut Marty wrote:

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 01:39:28AM +0200, Bruno Pagani wrote:

I think that the packager just didn’t see this addition and only bounced the 
pkgver. There is an open ticket about this: 
https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/50445.


This would be surprising, as the new compile-time option was explicitly
given in the release announce mail. Does that mean the packager did not
subscribe to the very low-traffic mutt announce list or did not read it
before updating the package?
However, the UPDATING file does not mention the new option.


Or maybe they read it and just figured that anyone who wanted it would build it
themselves…

In any event, vesath has already pushed a version with it included.

/J

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Re: [arch-general] about mrelendig's, scimmia's, and dreisner's behavior

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 11/08/16 at 08:06am, fnodeuser wrote:


this is about the task hiding and their unacceptable behavior as members of the 
arch linux team.


Reading the logs for #archlinux, it looks like their behaviour was entirely
acceptable and even commendable. I certainly wouldn't have put up with your
puerile tantrums for as long as they did.

Enjoy your rage.

/J

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Re: [arch-general] about mrelendig's, scimmia's, and dreisner's behavior

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 11/08/16 at 04:08am, fnodeuser wrote:


i came here to contribute.


And your “contribution”; anonymous, inarticulate and completely unsubstantiated,
is completely worthless.

Won't fix. Closing.

/J

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