Re: [arch-general] [arch-dev-public] [announcement] qemu/qemu-kvm announcement draft
On 01/12/2010 07:33 AM, Tobias Powalowski wrote: Am Dienstag 12 Januar 2010 schrieb Alexander Duscheleit: On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:07:19 +0100 Tobias Powalowskit.p...@gmx.de wrote: Am Sonntag 10 Januar 2010 schrieb Simon Boulay: On 01/10/2010 09:48 AM, Tobias Powalowski wrote: Am Samstag 09 Januar 2010 schrieb Simon Boulay: On 01/09/2010 09:09 PM, Tobias Powalowski wrote: Am Samstag 09 Januar 2010 schrieb Dan McGee: On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Tobias Powalowskit.p...@gmx.de wrote: Yes will change the install message. Yes there is no mention in the changelogs, really strange. greetings tpowa Ok like this? echo Since kernel 2.6.29: echo Qemu package now provides standard qemu with kvm enabled. echo echo PLEASE READ FOR KVM USAGE! echo Load the correct KVM module, you will need a KVM capable CPU! echo Add yourself to the group 'kvm'. echo Use 'qemu --enable-kvm' to use KVM. echo echo With the release of qemu and qemu-kvm 0.12.X, the kqemu kernel module echo is no longer supported and will be removed from the repositories. You echo can safely uninstall it from your system. Can we put some vercmp checks around messages like this? That way people only have to see them once (when they upgrade the first time to a 0.12.x version for the second message). The first message should really be a post_install message. And with all that said, why are there two packages in extra if qemu package now provides standard qemu with kvm enabled? -Dan Yes sure i can add those vercmp stuff. qemu and qemu-kvm is different. qemu-kvm is only for kvm while qemu provides much more machines to emulate. I'm not sure about that. Both seems to share the same code for machine emulation; only the kvm stuff is different. In fedora 12, they build kvm and qemu-system-xxx from qemu-kvm 0.11. But I don't know how this will evolve in the future. If qemu and qemu-kvm are used for different purposes, one may need to install both apps side by side but that's not possible in archlinux. Why? qemu is for those who need more different emulation types. qemu-kvm is only for 86 emulation with kvm hardware support. Both differ in files you would need to hack bios file destination etc. I don't see any need to install both at the same time. Because one may want to use x86 emulation with kvm hardware support and qemu-system-arm for example on the same machine. It is possible to build all targets with qemu-kvm but that's not the default and I don't know if that'll be the case for future release. For 0.11 release, qemu and qemu-kvm seems to converge, but with 0.12 that's not so clear (at least to me). As I understand it, the development of platform emulation is done in qemu and kvm virtualization is done in qemu-kvm (even if qemu has some kvm support) but the qemu repository is regularly merged in qemu-kvm. I don't find any official statement about that, so... normal qemu supports kvm too, just use --enable-kvm start parameter. So no need to install qemu-kvm. greetings tpowa In this light, what actually is qemu-kvm good for? We don't split packges for -src, -devel, but for startup-parameters? If there is no other difference then a few more binaries (which as far as i know doesn't justify another package) why not kill qemu-kvm alltogether and include something like /usr/bin/kvm: ---8--- #!/bin/bash qemu --enable-kvm $* ---8--- When I tested both packages here qemu with --enable-kvm *felt* a little slower when running XP, but that's a) entirely subjective and b) I dodn't test identical workloads. So, again, what is the reason for there being a qemu-kvm package, when it is apparently a subset of the qemu package? Greetings, jinks The size of the package differs enormous. I'll keep both. The size differs because qemu-kvm doesn't build all targets by default unlike qemu. If you build qemu-kvm with ./configure --target-list= both packages will be the same size... AFAIK the difference between the two is in the kvm implementation. qemu-kvm is far more advanced in this area (support more targets, ksm, and certainly many other things regarding the amount of code differences). The point is, as kqemu is gone, qemu-kvm can replace qemu and even provide more functionality. But it is not so clear that this will be always true. archlinux choose to offer both packages for two different purposes and it's fine. But if they are two different applications, why not make it possible to install both at the same time? You, archlinux developers make an amazing job. The beauty and the power of archlinux is that I can easily build qemu and/or qemu-kvm in my own particular weird way ;-) Greetings, Simon.
Re: [arch-general] Quoting of E-mails
On 01/12/2010 11:13 AM, Allan McRae wrote: solsTiCe d'Hiver wrote: Le mardi 12 janvier 2010 à 12:48 +0800, Ng Oon-Ee a écrit : [...] and its really tough to go through archives (for example, when googling about an issue) when there's top-posting involved. That's actually my primary reason for bottom-posting. By the way, how do you search in the archives of the archlinux ML ? especially on several months ? I had to download the text files and grep them to find what I was looking for. Is there a better way ? google e.g. to search for foobar in arch-dev-public: foobar site:http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/ (42 hits!) There is also gmane.org: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.arch.devel http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.arch.general
Re: [arch-general] [arch-dev-public] [announcement] qemu/qemu-kvm announcement draft
On 01/12/2010 02:29 PM, Alexander Duscheleit wrote: On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 11:41:03 +0100 Simon Boulaysimon.bou...@gmail.com wrote: On 01/12/2010 07:33 AM, Tobias Powalowski wrote: [snip] So, again, what is the reason for there being a qemu-kvm package, when it is apparently a subset of the qemu package? Greetings, jinks The size of the package differs enormous. I'll keep both. I didn't look at them until now, but yes, at 5 MB vs 56 MB this makes sense. The size differs because qemu-kvm doesn't build all targets by default unlike qemu. If you build qemu-kvm with ./configure --target-list= both packages will be the same size... AFAIK the difference between the two is in the kvm implementation. qemu-kvm is far more advanced in this area (support more targets, ksm, and certainly many other things regarding the amount of code differences). *This* was what i was looking for. I couldn't really find anything published about the differences between the two different releases in any prominent place. Me neither... I found this: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KVM_and_QEMU_merge and Fedora package source here: http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/rpms/qemu/devel/ The point is, as kqemu is gone, qemu-kvm can replace qemu and even provide more functionality. But it is not so clear that this will be always true. archlinux choose to offer both packages for two different purposes and it's fine. But if they are two different applications, why not make it possible to install both at the same time? if qemu-kvm ist more advanced in the kvm regard and can offer the same functionality with an added --target-list, wouldn't it at least make sense to build both packages from the qemu-kvm sources? (I thought until now, the kvm sources wouldn't support other targets than x86(_64).) As far as I understand, at the moment I have to choose between either latest and greatest kvm performance *or* multiple target support. You, archlinux developers make an amazing job. The beauty and the power of archlinux is that I can easily build qemu and/or qemu-kvm in my own particular weird way ;-) +1 :) Greetings, Simon. Greetings, jinks P.S.: As a sidenote: Is it normal/intentional that I don't get my own mails back via the list? Or is this some weird GMail stuff?
Re: [arch-general] [arch-dev-public] [announcement] qemu/qemu-kvm announcement draft
On 01/10/2010 09:48 AM, Tobias Powalowski wrote: Am Samstag 09 Januar 2010 schrieb Simon Boulay: On 01/09/2010 09:09 PM, Tobias Powalowski wrote: Am Samstag 09 Januar 2010 schrieb Dan McGee: On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Tobias Powalowskit.p...@gmx.de wrote: Yes will change the install message. Yes there is no mention in the changelogs, really strange. greetings tpowa Ok like this? echoSince kernel 2.6.29: echoQemu package now provides standard qemu with kvm enabled. echo echoPLEASE READ FOR KVM USAGE! echo Load the correct KVM module, you will need a KVM capable CPU! echo Add yourself to the group 'kvm'. echo Use 'qemu --enable-kvm' to use KVM. echo echo With the release of qemu and qemu-kvm 0.12.X, the kqemu kernel module echo is no longer supported and will be removed from the repositories. You echo can safely uninstall it from your system. Can we put some vercmp checks around messages like this? That way people only have to see them once (when they upgrade the first time to a 0.12.x version for the second message). The first message should really be a post_install message. And with all that said, why are there two packages in extra if qemu package now provides standard qemu with kvm enabled? -Dan Yes sure i can add those vercmp stuff. qemu and qemu-kvm is different. qemu-kvm is only for kvm while qemu provides much more machines to emulate. I'm not sure about that. Both seems to share the same code for machine emulation; only the kvm stuff is different. In fedora 12, they build kvm and qemu-system-xxx from qemu-kvm 0.11. But I don't know how this will evolve in the future. If qemu and qemu-kvm are used for different purposes, one may need to install both apps side by side but that's not possible in archlinux. Why? qemu is for those who need more different emulation types. qemu-kvm is only for 86 emulation with kvm hardware support. Both differ in files you would need to hack bios file destination etc. I don't see any need to install both at the same time. Because one may want to use x86 emulation with kvm hardware support and qemu-system-arm for example on the same machine. It is possible to build all targets with qemu-kvm but that's not the default and I don't know if that'll be the case for future release. For 0.11 release, qemu and qemu-kvm seems to converge, but with 0.12 that's not so clear (at least to me). As I understand it, the development of platform emulation is done in qemu and kvm virtualization is done in qemu-kvm (even if qemu has some kvm support) but the qemu repository is regularly merged in qemu-kvm. I don't find any official statement about that, so... greetings, Simon. greetings tpowa
Re: [arch-general] [arch-dev-public] [announcement] qemu/qemu-kvm announcement draft
On 01/09/2010 09:09 PM, Tobias Powalowski wrote: Am Samstag 09 Januar 2010 schrieb Dan McGee: On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Tobias Powalowskit.p...@gmx.de wrote: Yes will change the install message. Yes there is no mention in the changelogs, really strange. greetings tpowa Ok like this? echo Since kernel 2.6.29: echo Qemu package now provides standard qemu with kvm enabled. echo echo PLEASE READ FOR KVM USAGE! echoLoad the correct KVM module, you will need a KVM capable CPU! echoAdd yourself to the group 'kvm'. echoUse 'qemu --enable-kvm' to use KVM. echo echo With the release of qemu and qemu-kvm 0.12.X, the kqemu kernel module echo is no longer supported and will be removed from the repositories. You echo can safely uninstall it from your system. Can we put some vercmp checks around messages like this? That way people only have to see them once (when they upgrade the first time to a 0.12.x version for the second message). The first message should really be a post_install message. And with all that said, why are there two packages in extra if qemu package now provides standard qemu with kvm enabled? -Dan Yes sure i can add those vercmp stuff. qemu and qemu-kvm is different. qemu-kvm is only for kvm while qemu provides much more machines to emulate. I'm not sure about that. Both seems to share the same code for machine emulation; only the kvm stuff is different. In fedora 12, they build kvm and qemu-system-xxx from qemu-kvm 0.11. But I don't know how this will evolve in the future. If qemu and qemu-kvm are used for different purposes, one may need to install both apps side by side but that's not possible in archlinux. I see two ways to handle that: 1. Permit the installation of both applications at the same time (qemu for system emulation, qemu-kvm for visualization). qemu-kvm executables can be renamed to kvm-xyz. That's what Debian do. 2. Build qemu-kvm with --target= and all came in the same package. With 0.11, only qemu provided kqemu but as the kqemu support is gone, the second proposition seems to be the way to go. I use this on archlinux for kvm (winXP) and sh or arm emulation without problems since 0.11. Simon. greetings tpowa
