[Arm-netbook] Linux Link Tech Show, Episode 6 hundred and sixty six... :)
http://tlltsarchive.org/archives/tllts_666-07-13-16.ogg --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
Re: [Arm-netbook] crowdfunding page is live -- and different CPUs for the future
On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 11:02 PM, Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo wrote: > Hi all, > > 2016-06-30 16:25 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton: >> >> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Paul Boddie wrote: >>> >>> On Wednesday 29. June 2016 20.35.04 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: the page is now live, and runs till the 26th august. please do help push that out to as many people as you can, blog about it, etc. we have thinkpenguin writing about it, liliputing is doing an article, i'll create a slashdot article, i'll be in touch with wired later today and so on. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop >>> >>> >>> Congratulations on getting this far! > > > +1! Congrats, Luke! thanks manuel. we're at 54% of the total MOQ numbers needed for the Computer Card production run, which is great. > MIPS it's a more realistic possibility, but I am not sure if IC1T is a > very good option, if it has no foothold in the market yet, has zero > distributions supporting it, and it doesn't offer clear advantages in > other areas (??). I wouldn't mind at all to get one of those, but I am > not sure if many people will follow... so would be bad in terms of > effectiveness. if it can't have debian... yeah. as in, because the open64.net compiler "isn't called gcc", it's almost impossible to *do* a debian port. > If it's for something more experimental like perhaps the IC1T would be, > I'd consider the possibility of exploring RISC-V [1] based designs like > the recently launched SiFive ones [2]. > > The development is more in-line with FOSS (even if some aspects are not > 100% perfect), hopefully there will be no need for blobs or NDAs or > problems for booting. And with 64-bits, it is well prepared to be > usable for several decades to come [3]. ok, what goes into a successful SoC? let's go through ths list: * Video output: HDMI, LCD (RGB/TTL/LVDS/MIPI/eDP), maybe TV (Composite) * Memory: DDR2 through to DDR4 and not forgetting LPDDR2/3 *and* DDR3L... * Storage (SATA, SD/MMC, eMMC, NAND) * Network (Ethernet) * USB (1.0 through 3.1) multiple thereof including USB-OTG * GPIO (plain GPIO) and also EINT-capable GPIO * Audio (I2S AC97 as well as Analog - Headphones, Mic etc.) * PCIe * General-purpose sensors/peripherals (I2C, UART, SPI up to 4 lane) then also for a successful mass-market SoC you also need: * 3D Graphics GPU * 2D Graphics GPU * Video Decode / Encode * Crypto Co-processor (which saves power) and finally - last *AND LEAST*: * A general-purpose processor. yes really, with all that huge amount of extra stuff above, the processor *really is* last and least! :) it's also, in the RISC world, one of the smallest sections of the SoC, taking up something like ONE PERCENT in the corner. 1st level cache takes up a whopping 15-20%. The "Memory Bus" down the middle of the processor is a whopping 15% the width of the entire die, with branches off left and right to different peripherals (including the processor). now for licensing costs of all those hard macros, it works out something like: $350,000 for DDR memory bus (32-bit-wide data), $50k for SATA, $50k for each USB3, $50k for GPIO/Audio/I2C/UART etc, $50k for Ethernet pretty soon you are at $USD 3 million for licensing of all the hard macros needed to make a successful SoC. ... but if you *don't do* that licensing, and instead try to replicate them all, you are immediately placing the entire project at risk. bear in mind that TSMC won't talk to you if you make a failed chip (first time) because you're wasting their time. and it costs $USD 2 *MILLION* for the production masks (the lithographic masks like an OHP plastic sheet) ... so against that background can you see that to focus on the *actual* processor's *instruction set* - to make a totally new architecture - is pretty much irrelevant as far as making an *actual processor* is concerned? and then once that's done you *still* need to port OSes to it! my feeling is, we would be much better off talking to Loongson and seeing if they'd be up for a licensing deal of their MIPS64 architecture. apart from anything the Loongson 3G and above have emulation in hardware of the top 200 x86 instructions which makes it possible for them to accelerate non-native QEMU up to 70% of the native MIPS64 processor's clock rate. which is pretty awesome. l. ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
Re: [Arm-netbook] FSFE discussion list message
>> I just posted about this in another thread of this mailing list, >> specifically about RISC-V. > > ... where? okok got it, i'm awake now :) ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
Re: [Arm-netbook] FSFE discussion list message
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo wrote: > I just posted about this in another thread of this mailing list, > specifically about RISC-V. ... where? > Hopefully somebody will make some in silicon > rather than FPGA, either lowrisc, SiFive, or somebody else. > > > Also I forgot to mention the SH4 architecture with patents expired or > expiring, and the intention to create the "J" cores, we'll see how it > goes. > > >> I rather hope for a solid discussion of the merits of the campaign, as >> opposed >> to people just claiming that it can't be done, won't work, or whatever. > > > I really believe that it CAN be done and that it WILL work, sooner or > later ;) it will... once people realise that the key bit that's hard is not the processor core, it's the management and sourcing of the hard macros *surrounding* the processor core. l. ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
Re: [Arm-netbook] FSFE discussion list message
Hi, 2016-07-01 17:23 Paul Boddie: Hello again, I've also posted a message to the FSFE discussion list about the campaign: http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/discussion/2016-July/00.html There have been some discussions on that list about open hardware and the threats posed by proprietary hardware and the surveillance features of various CPU families, notably these threads: http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/discussion/2016-April/010912.html (Featuring an attempt to fund a POWER8-based workstation.) http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/discussion/2016-June/011100.html (Hopes for "truly free processor architectures", which might not be such a fantasy after all, given improvements in Free Software for programmable logic and synthesis.) I just posted about this in another thread of this mailing list, specifically about RISC-V. Hopefully somebody will make some in silicon rather than FPGA, either lowrisc, SiFive, or somebody else. Also I forgot to mention the SH4 architecture with patents expired or expiring, and the intention to create the "J" cores, we'll see how it goes. I rather hope for a solid discussion of the merits of the campaign, as opposed to people just claiming that it can't be done, won't work, or whatever. I really believe that it CAN be done and that it WILL work, sooner or later ;) -- Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
Re: [Arm-netbook] crowdfunding page is live -- and different CPUs for the future
Hi all, 2016-06-30 16:25 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton: On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Paul Boddie wrote: On Wednesday 29. June 2016 20.35.04 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: the page is now live, and runs till the 26th august. please do help push that out to as many people as you can, blog about it, etc. we have thinkpenguin writing about it, liliputing is doing an article, i'll create a slashdot article, i'll be in touch with wired later today and so on. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop Congratulations on getting this far! +1! Congrats, Luke! I'm inclined to pledge for the Micro-Desktop and EOMA68-A20, but I'd be very interested in getting other cards as well, if the ones that were planned (jz4775, IC1T) made it onto the bill. The possibility of experimenting with different architectures, having a common platform in which to do it, is a considerable strength of the EOMA68 concept. the ic1t i haven't heard back from them in a while, but the jz4775 looks achievable - i just have to find time to sort out the boot process. (just IMHO) MIPS it's a more realistic possibility, but I am not sure if IC1T is a very good option, if it has no foothold in the market yet, has zero distributions supporting it, and it doesn't offer clear advantages in other areas (??). I wouldn't mind at all to get one of those, but I am not sure if many people will follow... so would be bad in terms of effectiveness. If it's for something more experimental like perhaps the IC1T would be, I'd consider the possibility of exploring RISC-V [1] based designs like the recently launched SiFive ones [2]. The development is more in-line with FOSS (even if some aspects are not 100% perfect), hopefully there will be no need for blobs or NDAs or problems for booting. And with 64-bits, it is well prepared to be usable for several decades to come [3]. [1] https://riscv.org/ [2] https://www.sifive.com/products/freedom/ [3] 32-bits is problematic even nowadays, e.g. Debian having problems to build some of the biggest applications due to lack of memory. Cheers. -- Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
Re: [Arm-netbook] simplest internet connection
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Nick Hardiman wrote: > So if I got this right, I can set up a card with network access in three ways > - a minimal standalone setup, a full desktop setup, or a PCB for many cards. > First two are linked to the current crowdsourcing campaign, third one is a > future enhancement. correct. > Here’s what I understand about the first two. This look right? Please excuse > my rough ASCII connections diagrams we like ascii connections. thank you for not doing them as HTML. > a minimal standalone setup > > power socket > | > power plug, $6 > delivering at least 3 watts, so thats practically any USB charger > https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Wall-Charger-Outlet-Output/dp/B005CG2ATQ/ref=sr_1_7 > | > USB OTG cable, $1.63 (!) > https://www.amazon.com/Micro-Cable-Power-Samsung-Player/dp/B00CXAC1ZW/ > or > USB + HDMI Cable Set, $15 > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop > | | > | USB to Ethernet adapter > | This one seems to contain an ASIX chip (AX88178) > | $25 > | http://plugable.com/products/usb2-e1000 plugable... ... you're better off buying from thinkpenguin. > | | > | Network cable, to the network, say $10 > | > Libre Tea Computer Card, $65 that's basically it. you won't be able to see any of the boot logs, early kernel messages or OS boot logs with this setup. if you were to get the cable set *and* then plug in the HDMI cable *and* the bootloader and kernel were configured to display onto HDMI, *then* you would be able to use just the above, because you could plug in a keyboard instead of the USB-ETH adapter. > a full desktop setup, for seeing boot loader and kernel messages boot loader and kernel messages go to where the boot loader and kernel are configured to send them. *early* messages can *only* go to the serial port. this isn't a PC, it's an embedded computer. if you're not familiar with this you should read up on it, on the linux-sunxi wiki, and ask more questions when you need to. basically the boot proces goes: * BROM (boot rom) http://linux-sunxi.org/BROM * NAND or SD/MMC 16k "very early bootloader". this is so small it can only do serial debug output depending on the very early bootloader, some people use allwinner boot0/boot1, other people use u-boot "SPL" early bootloader, you have different choices. * after u-boot-spl you can go direct to u-boot and from there LCD or HDMI or UART is initialised, you can get early u-boot messages on LCD or UART * boot0/boot1 is a bit weird, it can do LCD / HDMI initialisation but it's for tablets, you don't get log messages. you can put in your own u-boot, that's where you could get LCD/HDMI started from there you get to kernel, that's when you have "console=" from u-boot and associated scripts (uEnv.txt), that says where the kernel console output goes. i will have this all set up correctly so that you won't need to do it or know all of it in advance, and there will be people (at least me) who can guide you through modifying it for particular setups. there's also the linux-sunxi community. > Libre Tea Computer Card > $65 > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop > | > Micro Desktop Housing > $55 > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop > | | | > | | Network cable, to the network, say $10 > | | > | Keyboard, Video, Mouse, say $100 > | > power plug (a USB charger?) no, a 7-21v PSU (i'll likely supply a 12v one) with a standard 5.5mm pin-positive jack. the PSU is part of the micro-desktop kit. l. ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA-68: eoma68/laptop_15in_pcb2/src/main.c authorship and license
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Albert ARIBAUD wrote: > Hi, > > While waiting for my AZERTY keyboard, I have started working on the EC > firmware and noticed that eoma68/laptop_15in_pcb2/src/main.c does not > have an header mentioning license and authorship, and that there is no > readme (yet... A README.md is in the works) which would provide overall > licensing and authorship information. just haven't had time > I'll add the header while I'm at it, but for that, I need to determine > the licensing and author(s). that'll be only me unless it says "this file is part of the libopencm3 project". one exception: the himax hx8357 #defines. those are from the linux kernel. > Many other files in the same folder are LPGLv3 (because they are > copies/derivatives of libopencm3) so I guess main.c should be GPLv3 > (rather than LGPLv3 as it is not a library component). main.c can still be LGPLv3: i just choose it to be GPLv3. > As for authorship, git log shows Luke as the sole author, but I cannot > check if the file is a derivative of some other source with identified > authors which should be mentioned too. no there aren't. the example that i started from (a hello world one from libopencm3) was so few lines of code, and did not have a copyright header, that i didn't add one either. > For now, I'll go with GPLv3 as the license and Luke as sole author, but > anyone feel free to correct me if needed. yep. ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
Re: [Arm-netbook] simplest internet connection
> On 17 Jul 2016, at 02:37, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: Thanks for this - a very helpful answer. > On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Nick Hardiman > wrote: > >> What is the simplest way to hook up a card like this to the Internet? > > $5 USB-Ethernet dongle. okay, $5 if you're happy to get onto amazon :) > if you investigate what thinkpenguin is selling, those are the kinds of > products you will know will "just work" - no firmware needed, they're > "pure hardware" usb-eth dongles. i'm using a qca9600 and axis ones, > they work out-of-the-box with the right linux kernel module compiled. > > you'll also need one of the cable kits... you don't necessarily need the > HDMI cable... you could pick up the original one on amazon that we > ordered and tested… ... > depending on how many of these you're looking to get, it might be > easier to get a micro-desktop housing simply so that you are in a > position to investigate things (pop out the "Server" SD Card, put > in the "Desktop" SD card, check that the hardware's okay). So if I got this right, I can set up a card with network access in three ways - a minimal standalone setup, a full desktop setup, or a PCB for many cards. First two are linked to the current crowdsourcing campaign, third one is a future enhancement. Here’s what I understand about the first two. This look right? Please excuse my rough ASCII connections diagrams a minimal standalone setup power socket | power plug, $6 delivering at least 3 watts, so thats practically any USB charger https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Wall-Charger-Outlet-Output/dp/B005CG2ATQ/ref=sr_1_7 | USB OTG cable, $1.63 (!) https://www.amazon.com/Micro-Cable-Power-Samsung-Player/dp/B00CXAC1ZW/ or USB + HDMI Cable Set, $15 https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop | | | USB to Ethernet adapter | This one seems to contain an ASIX chip (AX88178) | $25 | http://plugable.com/products/usb2-e1000 | | | Network cable, to the network, say $10 | Libre Tea Computer Card, $65 a full desktop setup, for seeing boot loader and kernel messages Libre Tea Computer Card $65 https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop | Micro Desktop Housing $55 https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop | | | | | Network cable, to the network, say $10 | | | Keyboard, Video, Mouse, say $100 | power plug (a USB charger?) > well, if you're considering using them as space-saving 3 watt rack-mounted > blade servers, the idea was discussed in-depth a number of years ago > and keeps resurfacing on a regular basis. > ... > but, a special PCB for doing rack-mounted EOMA68 blade servers is exactly > what i want to do at some point. ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
[Arm-netbook] EOMA-68: eoma68/laptop_15in_pcb2/src/main.c authorship and license
Hi, While waiting for my AZERTY keyboard, I have started working on the EC firmware and noticed that eoma68/laptop_15in_pcb2/src/main.c does not have an header mentioning license and authorship, and that there is no readme (yet... A README.md is in the works) which would provide overall licensing and authorship information. I'll add the header while I'm at it, but for that, I need to determine the licensing and author(s). Many other files in the same folder are LPGLv3 (because they are copies/derivatives of libopencm3) so I guess main.c should be GPLv3 (rather than LGPLv3 as it is not a library component). As for authorship, git log shows Luke as the sole author, but I cannot check if the file is a derivative of some other source with identified authors which should be mentioned too. For now, I'll go with GPLv3 as the license and Luke as sole author, but anyone feel free to correct me if needed. Amicalement, -- Albert. ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
