Re: entropy and sustainability
John Perich wrote: . . . here's a thought: in six billion years, the sun will burn out, making all research into sustainability and environmental / resource economics a waste of time. . . . Not a complete waste; the study will be useful toward setting up ecosystems elsewhere. -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/
RE: entropy and sustainability
JP wrote: Actually, no, here's a thought: in six billion years, the sun will burn out, making all research into stainability and environmental / resource economics a waste of time. There's an obvious connection to entropy right there. -JP As long as environmental and resource economics take a direct influence on economic policy, productivity and welfare like other economic research you could your thought give an extension: ...making all research in economics a waste of time. Probably you don't know, but the connection of entropy and economy is still, obviously without relevance, a common concept in so called ecological economics, a field of research with huge influence in environmental policy, especially in Germany. Because I don't agree with that, I'm looking for profound arguments against that costly influence. Your comment is right, but for my audience probably not convincing. Steffen -Original Message- From: John Perich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 6:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: entropy and sustainability Well, Fred beat me to the punch here on the smart-aleck response. Unless you mean entropy as something other than the standard accepted definition - namely, a decrease in ordered energy on a thermodynamic level - then we can't help you. Actually, no, here's a thought: in six billion years, the sun will burn out, making all research into sustainability and environmental / resource economics a waste of time. There's an obvious connection to entropy right there. -JP From: Fred Foldvary [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: entropy and sustainability Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 08:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Dear armchairs, who among you knows something new about the consequence of entropy on sustainability and environmental/ressource economics (books, papers, etc.)? Steffen I know something: any article on economics with the word entropy is likely to be nonsense, unless it itself declares such articles nonsense. Entropy says a closed system will dissipate into unavailable energy. But the earth is not a closed system. It keeps getting solar energy, and therefore the biomass and economic activity can increase indefinitely, so long as the sun continues to shine. Fred Foldvary = [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ -- I'm never gonna work another day in my life. The gods told me to relax; they said I'm gonna be fixed up right. I'm never gonna work another day in my life. I'm way too busy powertrippin', but I'm gonna shed you some light. - Monster Magnet, Powertrip _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
RE: Grade Inflation
Gustavo Lacerda: You would think that smart employers would know to rate a B+ student from a tough-grading school more favorably than an A- student from an easy-grading school. But there are too many schools, and most employers aren't using a national database of with statistics about each school. Grade inflation ignorance can also be seen in the several organizations which equate GPAs across schools and majors, by for example setting minimum required GPAs to apply. This is a powerful argument for the old school tie. Graduates of, say, the pharmacy school at the University of Texas at Austin have, and can easily update and refine, a good sense of just what a B+ from _that_ school means. Michael Michael E. Etchison Texas Wholesale Power Report MLE Consulting www.mleconsulting.com 1423 Jackson Road Kerrville, TX 78028 830) 895-4005
Re: Grade Inflation
It seems to me that an effective remedy to grade inflation would be standardized exams on the subjects taught, prior to graduation. There would be, for example, a standard exam for econ majors, similar to what is done in grad schools. If many universities used the same exams, then that would serve as a signal of knowledge, and also reveal the grade differential relative to test results. That, of course, is why such exams are not being implemented. Fred Foldvary = [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/
RE: entropy and sustainability
Because I don't agree with that, I'm looking for profound arguments against that costly influence. From Jean Bricmont's essay Science of Chaos or Chaos in Science in _The Flight From Science and Reason_, ed. Paul Gross, et al: As discussed in Penrose [R. Penrose, 'The Emperor's New Mind' and 'On the Second Law of Thermodynamics'], the earth does not gain energy from the sun (that energy is reradiated by the earth), but low entropy; the sun sends (relatively) few high-energy photons, and the earth reradiates more low-energy photons (in such a way that the total energy is concerved). Expressed in terms of 'phase space,' the numerous low-energy photons occupy a much bigger volume than the incoming high-energy ones. So the solar system, as a whole, moves towards a larger part of its phase space while the sun burns its fuel. Nice, but is there a meaningful amount to cover all human uses? I turn to The Skeptical Environmentalist by Bjorn Lomborg (though, since environmentalists have equated him with holocoust sympathizers, you will want to go to his source material and avoid using his name), and look at figure 73 on page 133 (in the chapter on energy). It shows, inter alia, total annual [human] energy consumption (400EJ), total plant photosynthesis (1,260EJ), and ANNUAL solar radiation (2,895,000EJ). Taking that surplus of solar energy (2,895,000 - 1,260) and asking a physcist or chemist to interpret that surplus in terms of entropy (if that's possible or even meaningful), I think you will be able to show that there is plenty of low entropy out there for human consumption for a long time to come. Also, though not directly related, if you seek discussions of entropy in lay-man's terms, you might try turning to the creationist/evolution debate in the States. Creationists love to claim that evolution violates entropy, so scientists have spent alot of time explaining entropy in simple terms. You could try www.infidels.org and go to their library section, also www.talkorigins.org has pages somewhere in their site that discuss entropy. Good luck! jsh __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/
Re: entropy and sustainability
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 08:10:59AM -0700, Fred Foldvary wrote: Entropy says a closed system will dissipate into unavailable energy. Entropy applies to open systems too. The way it works is, a given energy source (the sun) and heat sink (outer space) allows you to remove so many bits of entropy per second from your system, so that limits your activities to producing no more than that many bits of entropy per second. But the earth is not a closed system. It keeps getting solar energy, and therefore the biomass and economic activity can increase indefinitely, so long as the sun continues to shine. Economic activity can't increase indefinitely, because eventually we'll have improved our technologies to the limits imposed by physics, and used up every square inch of sunlight. At that point thermodynamics will determine the ultimate limit on the rate of economic activity on Earth. On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 11:35:31AM +0200, Hentrich, Steffen wrote: Probably you don't know, but the connection of entropy and economy is still, obviously without relevance, a common concept in so called ecological economics, a field of research with huge influence in environmental policy, especially in Germany. Because I don't agree with that, I'm looking for profound arguments against that costly influence. Your comment is right, but for my audience probably not convincing. Can you cite a paper from this literature? Without knowing more it's hard to tell if the concept of entropy is being used correctly or not.
Re: Grade Inflation
It's a bad thing but one reason is maybe that Universities would not want to be compared to each other in terms of test scores. Tests are hardcore evidences of which school is good and which school is not. At 09:00 AM 4/9/2002 -0700, you wrote: It seems to me that an effective remedy to grade inflation would be standardized exams on the subjects taught, prior to graduation. There would be, for example, a standard exam for econ majors, similar to what is done in grad schools. If many universities used the same exams, then that would serve as a signal of knowledge, and also reveal the grade differential relative to test results. That, of course, is why such exams are not being implemented. Fred Foldvary = [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.295 / Virus Database: 159 - Release Date: 11/1/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.295 / Virus Database: 159 - Release Date: 11/1/2001
Re: entropy and sustainabilityt
--- Anton Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Perich wrote: . . . here's a thought: in six billion years, the sun will burn out, making all research into sustainability and environmental / resource economics a waste of time. . . . But what is the present value of something 6 billion years in the future? Fred Foldvary Depends on your discount rate! ;-) I suspect radical environmentalists, to the extent that they are time-rational at all, do not discount very steeply. They might well have a zero discount rate, or even a negative one -- meaning a pristine environment 6 billion years from now might be worth more to them than one now. After all, by then the human race, the cancer on the planet might be gone and the environment will be truly natural according to some points of view. --Robert
Re: Grade Inflation
It seems to me that an effective remedy to grade inflation would be standardized exams on the subjects taught, prior to graduation. There would be, for example, a standard exam for econ majors, similar to what is done in grad schools. If many universities used the same exams, then that would serve as a signal of knowledge, and also reveal the grade differential relative to test results. That, of course, is why such exams are not being implemented. Fred Foldvary Isn't this what the GRE, MCAT, etc., are for? Granted, they don't apply to all post-graduate plans, but it's a start. First Law of Work: If you can't get your work done in the first 24 hours, work nights.
