Re: [arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
Oh, I am hindi speaking so do not get to listen tamil music,nor to see tamil film here. I have heard of Iruvar, having vennilaa by Asha shot on Aishat the backdrop of Taj mahal, but I was not aware ofstoryline that it was a period song.I wonder why Mani did nod dub the movie/ music for hindi audience. It was based on the Karunanidhi - MGR political rivalry somewhere in the 1960's . So the storyline was very situational to TN. I rate it as one of Mani and ARR's very best. -- Warm Regards~~~Vinayak This August, Discover the Birth of Your Independence and The Magic of A.R.Rahman's Music in Mangal Pandey - The Rising http://www.risingthefilm.com http://www.mangalpandeythefilm.com Music released: Jul 14, 2005 Movie releases: Aug 12, 2005 Explore, Experience, Enjoy A.R.Rahman - The Man, The Music, The Magic. Only at arrahmanfans - The definitive A.R.Rahman e-community. Homepage: http://www.arrahmanfans.com Admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] SPONSORED LINKS Christian music artists New music artists New country music artists Country music artists Music artists Unsigned music artist YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "arrahmanfans" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
On 7/26/05 3:45 AM India Time, _Vinayakam Murugan_ wrote: > If Shankar or Mani make a period film, what visuals they > will use is not known. > > > Mani has done Iruvar with ARR and the music is as "periodic" :-) as you > could get. Oh, I am hindi speaking so do not get to listen tamil music, nor to see tamil film here. I have heard of Iruvar, having vennilaa by Asha shot on Aish at the backdrop of Taj mahal, but I was not aware of storyline that it was a period song. I wonder why Mani did nod dub the movie/ music for hindi audience. > -- > Warm Regards > ~~~ > Vinayak Thanks for updating me. -- Rawat This August, Discover the Birth of Your Independence and The Magic of A.R.Rahman's Music in Mangal Pandey - The Rising http://www.risingthefilm.com http://www.mangalpandeythefilm.com Music released: Jul 14, 2005 Movie releases: Aug 12, 2005 Explore, Experience, Enjoy A.R.Rahman - The Man, The Music, The Magic. Only at arrahmanfans - The definitive A.R.Rahman e-community. Homepage: http://www.arrahmanfans.com Admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arrahmanfans/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
That is where visuals add to the beauty of music. But itcan't be generalised to the "period"-ness of the visuals and audio. Shankar's and Mani's visuals were theirinterpretation of "current" dance-steps etc. And they couldfind a good support from ARR's music because ARR's music is"current".If Shankar or Mani make a period film, what visuals they will use is not known. Mani has done Iruvar with ARR and the music is as "periodic" :-) as you could get.-- Warm Regards~~~Vinayak This August, Discover the Birth of Your Independence and The Magic of A.R.Rahman's Music in Mangal Pandey - The Rising http://www.risingthefilm.com http://www.mangalpandeythefilm.com Music released: Jul 14, 2005 Movie releases: Aug 12, 2005 Explore, Experience, Enjoy A.R.Rahman - The Man, The Music, The Magic. Only at arrahmanfans - The definitive A.R.Rahman e-community. Homepage: http://www.arrahmanfans.com Admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "arrahmanfans" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better"
> I think most of the members of this group feel intimidated > by AM, NS ... I don't. Not quite intimidated, more like disgused. AMs copycat n lackluster talent are a joke. NS have one style. I guess their types of tunes is personal preference. AM, NS are no comparison for ARR. If must compare, use MDs of commensurate skill.. Nusrat F A K, naushad, etc etc. > Why talk just about chor chor which was still a good album > and is known to people? i used taal/chor chor to convey the point tht ARR cant pelase everyone. Because songs of taal/chor chor are so different, some of those that adored chor chor felt taal fading away quickly. Sure we can focus on its success too.. just answering your question "which crowd was displeased with taal" I think we've explored this thread to a reasonable depth, dont you? Lets enjoy what he has given us thus far, and hope for the next (your preference)++ but my feeling is that its going to be ARR++ -S --- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com, V S Rawat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/24/05 10:18 PM India Time, _ST_ wrote: > > > Rawat, why are you assuming that it was the first time I heard it? > > I've been hearing most of mughal-e-azam songs since I was little. > > Oh. I have made a mistake. apologies. > > > For > > a long time I hadn't heard them, any chance I get ARR's numbers seemed > > more appropriate. So yesterday I downloaded them to revisit those > > songs, and even yesterday my view didnt come about on one or two > > listens. Plus, i never said naushad was disappointing, or that the > > songs are bad! I feel those type of composition wont last in today's > > mass market if released today.. > > Not the "same" compositions. > > Naushad had released Tajmahal a few months back (Do people > know that Naushad is 85, and composing), and he had given > modern tunes in that album. That is not a copy of MEA. That > has latest technology. > > > that doesnt mean they are > > disappointing! Precisely the case with ARR's work (but the reason for > > mass market's displeasure wuld be different). > > > > Exactly my point! Then why complain that ARR songs are disappointing > > because they lack periodness?? > > "period"-ness is what will earn respect for ARR. > > This discussion started with arr saying no to further > period-movies. I was trying to look into what, if anything, > went wrong with his earlier "period" music. If something > comes out and ARR gets an insight, he will continue doing > further "period" and fans are in for treats after treats. > > I feel 1947earth to be the best album of ARR. How sad it > will be if ARR decided not to create such albums in future. > > > It is plainly what ppl see on the > > surface that decides the fate of ARR numbers. It is people's inference > > that is misguided. > > Such type of your comment will alienate people. These will > hurt them and will, in turn, hurt ARR. > > > When you consider movies and soundtracks that are appreciated and > > rated high by some of these reviewers, it becomes clear how valuable > > their opinon really is (to me/arr fans). You'r right they need to make > > a living.. so generally they need to appeal to majority of their > > readers.. and that does not do justice to ARR's work. > > When ARR's work will be liked by majority, these critics > will be forced to write good things. It is all in a loop. > > > Taal flopped in south. > > Taal was declared as a one-cassette-per-minute sold album. > Thus, if it was a hit at most of the places, maybe, we can > concentrate on those places first. > > > Im sure there were small percentage of people > > in north aswell who didnt appreciate it as much as some of his older > > works like Chor Chor, Dil hai Sanam. > > Chor Chor was just a dubbed album, and its film was never > dubbed/ released. The audio company tried to encash on ARR > magic. Thus, the album didn't become a hit in hindi without > the accompanying visuals and publicity that a film generates. > > Why talk just about chor chor which was still a good album > and is known to people? > > There was one muthu maharaja in hindi, which never reached > Indore, and it is a big city. > > Those were marketing mismanagements. > > > If he releases most albums like > > Taal, surely would be a huge market that would demand a change! > > Rest asuured ARR will never release a repeat album. He will > give tall++, and people will crave for more. > > > That precisely is one of the biggest problems with other MDs today. > > Not comparing the talent of articulating various emotions through > > musical compositinon (because arr should only be compared with other > > world musical geniuses), they have one style of creative composition > > and thats all they have! > > Let us analyze and learn from that "one style" of these > indian mds, and give feedback to ARR to use the strategies > of these MDs. > > Anu Malik's Asoka got condemned because its music did not > ahve the period feel
Re: [arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
On 7/24/05 10:18 PM India Time, _ST_ wrote: > Rawat, why are you assuming that it was the first time I heard it? > I've been hearing most of mughal-e-azam songs since I was little. Oh. I have made a mistake. apologies. > For > a long time I hadn't heard them, any chance I get ARR's numbers seemed > more appropriate. So yesterday I downloaded them to revisit those > songs, and even yesterday my view didnt come about on one or two > listens. Plus, i never said naushad was disappointing, or that the > songs are bad! I feel those type of composition wont last in today's > mass market if released today.. Not the "same" compositions. Naushad had released Tajmahal a few months back (Do people know that Naushad is 85, and composing), and he had given modern tunes in that album. That is not a copy of MEA. That has latest technology. > that doesnt mean they are > disappointing! Precisely the case with ARR's work (but the reason for > mass market's displeasure wuld be different). > > Exactly my point! Then why complain that ARR songs are disappointing > because they lack periodness?? "period"-ness is what will earn respect for ARR. This discussion started with arr saying no to further period-movies. I was trying to look into what, if anything, went wrong with his earlier "period" music. If something comes out and ARR gets an insight, he will continue doing further "period" and fans are in for treats after treats. I feel 1947earth to be the best album of ARR. How sad it will be if ARR decided not to create such albums in future. > It is plainly what ppl see on the > surface that decides the fate of ARR numbers. It is people's inference > that is misguided. Such type of your comment will alienate people. These will hurt them and will, in turn, hurt ARR. > When you consider movies and soundtracks that are appreciated and > rated high by some of these reviewers, it becomes clear how valuable > their opinon really is (to me/arr fans). You'r right they need to make > a living.. so generally they need to appeal to majority of their > readers.. and that does not do justice to ARR's work. When ARR's work will be liked by majority, these critics will be forced to write good things. It is all in a loop. > Taal flopped in south. Taal was declared as a one-cassette-per-minute sold album. Thus, if it was a hit at most of the places, maybe, we can concentrate on those places first. > Im sure there were small percentage of people > in north aswell who didnt appreciate it as much as some of his older > works like Chor Chor, Dil hai Sanam. Chor Chor was just a dubbed album, and its film was never dubbed/ released. The audio company tried to encash on ARR magic. Thus, the album didn't become a hit in hindi without the accompanying visuals and publicity that a film generates. Why talk just about chor chor which was still a good album and is known to people? There was one muthu maharaja in hindi, which never reached Indore, and it is a big city. Those were marketing mismanagements. > If he releases most albums like > Taal, surely would be a huge market that would demand a change! Rest asuured ARR will never release a repeat album. He will give tall++, and people will crave for more. > That precisely is one of the biggest problems with other MDs today. > Not comparing the talent of articulating various emotions through > musical compositinon (because arr should only be compared with other > world musical geniuses), they have one style of creative composition > and thats all they have! Let us analyze and learn from that "one style" of these indian mds, and give feedback to ARR to use the strategies of these MDs. Anu Malik's Asoka got condemned because its music did not ahve the period feel. Ghai deserted NS after Pardes to team up with our man. Ghai deserted our man and got the kick of his lifetime at his lower back in the flop of yaadein. So much that he felt forced to desert AM to team up with our man. NS' no film after Raaz had found any taker. He had hyped Dil Ka Rishta as his best music and nobody heard it. AM's award winning Main Hoon Na made almost everybody raise eyebrows that such stupid can fetch award. His murder got hit on a stolen song. His Waqt made people rush to toilets when his songs appeared on screen (he had made a personal appearance in waqt) So much for the mighties. These are spent forces. The music field is without any rival, and is waiting for ARR to come and rule. Will he? -- I think most of the members of this group feel intimidated by AM, NS ... I don't. -- Rawat This August, Discover the Birth of Your Independence and The Magic of A.R.Rahman's Music in Mangal Pandey - The Rising http://www.risingthefilm.com http://www.mangalpandeythefilm.com Music released: Jul 14, 2005 Movie releases: Aug 12, 2005 Explore, Experience, Enjoy A.R.Rahman - The Man, The Music, The Magic. Only at arrahmanfans - The definitive A.R.Rahman e-community.
Re: [arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
On 7/24/05 5:47 PM India Time, _surya_ wrote: > --- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com, V S Rawat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I just have one thing to say, for the trees you are not able to see > the forest. You are nittypicking bcoz you feel even his pre-modern > and post-modern era have the same arrangements or the same style. I do not know the technical details of music. I have no training in any kind of music. I can't understand the implication of every individual instrument or loop or whatever. I go by the overall feeling of calm, or happiness, or enthusiam, etc. that is generated after hearing a song. > We > all know it by a diff name and that is ARRish. Its not the > orchestraton or the instruments mind you, it is his genious to be > able to understand the situation (and for the last few years era) > and come of with tunes What he tries to do as far as I get it, he > comes up with his own interpretation of the same (and this is where > his research comes, he might listen and find what type of tunes were > created, what instruments he used) Exactly. Every MD eventually creates a music for an era depending of his interpretation or a rough "feel" about what sounds could have been in use in those era. Older MDs have given several detailed interviews in which they had elaborated how they found which instruments were in use during some earlier era, and made it a point to use only those instruments and not use those other instruments which were not in that era at that place. Then those MD tried to get a sound of the then current times using only those instruments they were using. I would like to know what ARR says about his research to find which instruments were in use in 1941 or in 1856. Members of this group are learned enough to notice by listening to ARR's music and can tell us which of the 2005 instruments they hear being used in Rising or in Bose music. A member of the group had written that Daud and Dil Hi Dil Mein loops are used in Rising. Now daud and DHDM are both decidedly current movies. Doesn't that itself tell that ARR feels that he can use loops indicating current music in period music? By using such things, ARR manages to get ARR-ish feel to his songs. Listeners notice and remember just this feel and forget about period elements of the songs. > and while doing it he also leaves > his indelible Rahman stamp on it and that is where u seem to have > disconnect. You had asked in one of your earlier emails, you would > like to know more about his research, then probably u should read > his interviews pre and post lagaan as to how he created Lagaan's > sound. please do send some links where ARR talks about the texhnical part of his music, period or non-period. > I personally feel that "ek tuu hii bharosa" of pukar has a > more "old" feel than "o palanhaare" of lagaan. I feel that > songs should really havc been exchanged in these films. > > And that again brings me back to the understanding of > "period" sounds that ARR has. > ===Rawat=== > > -- > Maybe he would have done that if Lagaan was conceptualized before > Pukar. Dont u think u r stretching it a little too far by saying > that such and such song would have been much better and this other > film. That is now how any music dir works I guess. Coming up with > tunes where he can procrastinate the type of situations and work he > might have and then going ahead and reserving certain of his tunes > just for them. Interestingly, I have heard the original Oh Bosnia that feels quite modern. But, "ek tuu hii bharosa" that is based on that song sounds quite "old" to me. > But, there is another aspect of it. Both mahive and Jogiya > are very sweet and voices were very fresh. The overall feel > of these two songs is same as saathiyaa's "chupke se" and > meenaxi's "ra.ng hai". So, there disappears the "period" feel. > ===Rawat=== > > See thats exactly the problem I was talking about earlier. The ARR > feel. The underlying thread in Mahive and Jogiya and Rang Hai is the > Rahmanisque feel. People so used to casting that they exhibit > certain restraint when presented with an alternative perspective. > Its not people's fault and neither is it Rahman's. > > I definitely don't wan't Rahman to inhibit his creative self just > bcoz he might be able to reach the masses. This thread started with "period" part of ARR's music, not with popularity of songs. > There are many other > music dir's who can do that. I am sure Gowriker, Benegal, Mehta, > Aamir come to ARR for a certain reason (inspite of some failures of > some of this period films) and I am sure they do it for the exact > same reason. But, ARR has said no to period movies. Why would Gowriker, Benegal, Mehta, Aamir come to him if they make another period movie? > Ashutosh did defy a lot of predefined notions in Lagaan. I am sure > you would agree that Lagaan didn;t have all the element
[arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
> What you said above is EXACTLY, VERBATIM, DITTO, the same as > what was said about those persons who felt disappointed with > Rising and Aa Aah in first hearings. Rawat, why are you assuming that it was the first time I heard it? I've been hearing most of mughal-e-azam songs since I was little. For a long time I hadn't heard them, any chance I get ARR's numbers seemed more appropriate. So yesterday I downloaded them to revisit those songs, and even yesterday my view didnt come about on one or two listens. Plus, i never said naushad was disappointing, or that the songs are bad! I feel those type of composition wont last in today's mass market if released today.. that doesnt mean they are disappointing! Precisely the case with ARR's work (but the reason for mass market's displeasure wuld be different). > Lagaan music became hit just like Dil Se and Bombay and Taal > music became hit, in spite of NOT being a period musics. Exactly my point! Then why complain that ARR songs are disappointing because they lack periodness?? It is plainly what ppl see on the surface that decides the fate of ARR numbers. It is people's inference that is misguided. > Similarly, if Ashutosh could bring a "old" feel in Lagaan, > or Benegal could bring an "old" feel in Zubaidaa or in Bose, > it is their mastery. I would say that they did not get much > help from ARR. Laagan would not have been what it was without ARR's music and background. ARR's contribution wasnt just in defining the situation, but in defining emotions of the audience. I guess the best advocate of this view would be Ashutosh or bengal, and their honest views we'll never know.. > In your last mail, you had written "I stopped listening to > critics long time ago". I think we should leave it upto > that. Critics are professional and they have to earn a > living by writing reviews. That must be affecting what they > write. When you consider movies and soundtracks that are appreciated and rated high by some of these reviewers, it becomes clear how valuable their opinon really is (to me/arr fans). You'r right they need to make a living.. so generally they need to appeal to majority of their readers.. and that does not do justice to ARR's work. > His those music that were attractive on surface "too", were > not a compromise on contents. That is what I am saying. He > should mandatorily make his music have enough attractiveness > of surface "too". Agreed. His best work that is appreciated the most has a surface factor aswell as his usual depth. > > If he chose to adopt a style that pelases one crowd, he would lose out > > on another. > Which crowd was displeased with Taal? Taal flopped in south. Im sure there were small percentage of people in north aswell who didnt appreciate it as much as some of his older works like Chor Chor, Dil hai Sanam. If he releases most albums like Taal, surely would be a huge market that would demand a change! That precisely is one of the biggest problems with other MDs today. Not comparing the talent of articulating various emotions through musical compositinon (because arr should only be compared with other world musical geniuses), they have one style of creative composition and thats all they have! --- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com, V S Rawat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/23/05 11:34 PM India Time, _ST_ wrote: > > > Whereas laagaan, bose, rising are more irreplaceable. Partly because > > of the lyrics and accounts of history ingrained into the song, but > > partly also because of its sounds. > > let's see. > > - Bose's "tanhaa raahii apanii raah chalataa jaayegaa" (with > or without bengali prelogue) can be put in PUKAR creating a > situation that Anil Kapoor reaffirms his own faith in his > honesty and patriotism and sings it in jail. > > > Yes some will be possible, many not possible. > > Waltz of romance.. possible in other situations demanding waltz in an > > british presence, but clearly not otherwise.. so couldnt have been > > placed even in bose, or 1947 unless the director made changes to his > > view. And that is an unfair comparison. > > > > Chale chalo. sure could have replaced kadam karam badhae ja. Whereas > > the contrary is not a good choice because kadam kadam was a unique > > theme of Subhash's army. Still does that mean chale chalo is not > > unique to lagaan. It conveys every possible concept it needs to. The > > anger toward british rule, persevierence to beat the opponent, > > confronting in together in a team etc etc. It just so happens that > > Bose and lagaan had situations very similar and the song could be > > replaced. But that wont go into pukaar or swades. > > Sahil, when we are talking about ARR, let's not talk about > film situations (which can be altered to suit the > replacement of songs) nor lyrics (which can be re-written > for new situation). We can talk only about the tune, sounds, > feel of the song. > > if lagaan's chale chalo and bose's kadam-kadam badhaye jaa > can be e
[arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
--- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com, V S Rawat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/23/05 11:34 PM India Time, _ST_ wrote: > > Whereas laagaan, bose, rising are more irreplaceable. Partly because > of the lyrics and accounts of history ingrained into the song, but > partly also because of its sounds. ===Rawat=== let's see. - Bose's "tanhaa raahii apanii raah chalataa jaayegaa" (with or without bengali prelogue) can be put in PUKAR creating a situation that Anil Kapoor reaffirms his own faith in his honesty and patriotism and sings it in jail. ===Rawat=== --- By the same token, Naushad could have easily used Pyar kiya to darna kyaa in Pakeezah. Mohe Pangat pe could have been easily placed Satyam Shivam Sundaram (I hvae to pick a diff directors movie bcoz Naushad by himself did so few films and was way too choosy than what ARR is) If you think loud voices defined Mughal period --- > Yes some will be possible, many not possible. > Waltz of romance.. possible in other situations demanding waltz in an > british presence, but clearly not otherwise.. so couldnt have been > placed even in bose, or 1947 unless the director made changes to his > view. And that is an unfair comparison. > > Chale chalo. sure could have replaced kadam karam badhae ja. Whereas > the contrary is not a good choice because kadam kadam was a unique > theme of Subhash's army. Still does that mean chale chalo is not > unique to lagaan. It conveys every possible concept it needs to. The > anger toward british rule, persevierence to beat the opponent, > confronting in together in a team etc etc. It just so happens that > Bose and lagaan had situations very similar and the song could be > replaced. But that wont go into pukaar or swades. ===Rawat=== Sahil, when we are talking about ARR, let's not talk about film situations (which can be altered to suit the replacement of songs) nor lyrics (which can be re-written for new situation). We can talk only about the tune, sounds, feel of the song. if lagaan's chale chalo and bose's kadam-kadam badhaye jaa can be exchanged, that is no big deal because both are period movies and both set in pre-47 era. I am saying even further: - Lagaan's "chale chalo" can be used in Dil Se creating a situation when Shahrukh goes to the jungles to interview terrorist leader, he sees group of terrorists getting trained and singing chale chalo with lyrics altered to suit the situation. - same "chale chalo"" of lagaan can be used in Bombay creating situations during the riots by (a) either rioters singing it, (b) or, the people grouping themselves against the rioters sing it. Again, script and lyrics can be modified, but Bombay or Dil Se are movies set in 1992-1999, and the same pre-1947 song fits. ===Rawat=== --- I just have one thing to say, for the trees you are not able to see the forest. You are nittypicking bcoz you feel even his pre-modern and post-modern era have the same arrangements or the same style. We all know it by a diff name and that is ARRish. Its not the orchestraton or the instruments mind you, it is his genious to be able to understand the situation (and for the last few years era) and come of with tunes What he tries to do as far as I get it, he comes up with his own interpretation of the same (and this is where his research comes, he might listen and find what type of tunes were created, what instruments he used) and while doing it he also leaves his indelible Rahman stamp on it and that is where u seem to have disconnect. You had asked in one of your earlier emails, you would like to know more about his research, then probably u should read his interviews pre and post lagaan as to how he created Lagaan's sound. -- > Oo palanhare and ek tuu hii bharosaa, sure. Context is pretty much the > same. I dont know how much periodness comes into play when one is > worshiping. I guess the period element in palan hare comes from the > lytics e.g "bhakti ko shakdi do". "bhagvaan yeh jeevan, tumhe na > savaro ke.." What I find amazing here is how well the melody fits > those lyrics. So indirectly it does contain period elements doesnt it. ===Rawat=== I personally feel that "ek tuu hii bharosa" of pukar has a more "old" feel than "o palanhaare" of lagaan. I feel that songs should really havc been exchanged in these films. And that again brings me back to the understanding of "period" sounds that ARR has. ===Rawat=== -- Maybe he would have done that if Lagaan was conceptualized before Pukar. Dont u think u r stretching it a little too far by saying that such and such song would have been much better and this other film. That is now how any music dir works I guess. Coming up with tunes where he can procrastinate the type of situations and work he might have and then going ahead and reserving certain of his tunes just for them. -
Re: [arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
On 7/23/05 11:34 PM India Time, _ST_ wrote: > Whereas laagaan, bose, rising are more irreplaceable. Partly because > of the lyrics and accounts of history ingrained into the song, but > partly also because of its sounds. let's see. - Bose's "tanhaa raahii apanii raah chalataa jaayegaa" (with or without bengali prelogue) can be put in PUKAR creating a situation that Anil Kapoor reaffirms his own faith in his honesty and patriotism and sings it in jail. > Yes some will be possible, many not possible. > Waltz of romance.. possible in other situations demanding waltz in an > british presence, but clearly not otherwise.. so couldnt have been > placed even in bose, or 1947 unless the director made changes to his > view. And that is an unfair comparison. > > Chale chalo. sure could have replaced kadam karam badhae ja. Whereas > the contrary is not a good choice because kadam kadam was a unique > theme of Subhash's army. Still does that mean chale chalo is not > unique to lagaan. It conveys every possible concept it needs to. The > anger toward british rule, persevierence to beat the opponent, > confronting in together in a team etc etc. It just so happens that > Bose and lagaan had situations very similar and the song could be > replaced. But that wont go into pukaar or swades. Sahil, when we are talking about ARR, let's not talk about film situations (which can be altered to suit the replacement of songs) nor lyrics (which can be re-written for new situation). We can talk only about the tune, sounds, feel of the song. if lagaan's chale chalo and bose's kadam-kadam badhaye jaa can be exchanged, that is no big deal because both are period movies and both set in pre-47 era. I am saying even further: - Lagaan's "chale chalo" can be used in Dil Se creating a situation when Shahrukh goes to the jungles to interview terrorist leader, he sees group of terrorists getting trained and singing chale chalo with lyrics altered to suit the situation. - same "chale chalo"" of lagaan can be used in Bombay creating situations during the riots by (a) either rioters singing it, (b) or, the people grouping themselves against the rioters sing it. Again, script and lyrics can be modified, but Bombay or Dil Se are movies set in 1992-1999, and the same pre-1947 song fits. > Oo palanhare and ek tuu hii bharosaa, sure. Context is pretty much the > same. I dont know how much periodness comes into play when one is > worshiping. I guess the period element in palan hare comes from the > lytics e.g "bhakti ko shakdi do". "bhagvaan yeh jeevan, tumhe na > savaro ke.." What I find amazing here is how well the melody fits > those lyrics. So indirectly it does contain period elements doesnt it. I personally feel that "ek tuu hii bharosa" of pukar has a more "old" feel than "o palanhaare" of lagaan. I feel that songs should really havc been exchanged in these films. And that again brings me back to the understanding of "period" sounds that ARR has. > Megha song.. no way wont replace anything! > > Mahive Mahive from LOBS.. with some modification could be placed in > other period/non period situations. But not as it is, the tabla beats > in the background are too reminiscent of the olden era. Ofcourse they > probably dont resemble anythign of that time, it just creates that > feeling. Exactly. That type of sounds should be used more and more. That are what create the feel. But, there is another aspect of it. Both mahive and Jogiya are very sweet and voices were very fresh. The overall feel of these two songs is same as saathiyaa's "chupke se" and meenaxi's "ra.ng hai". So, there disappears the "period" feel. > Yesterday I downloaded mughal-e-azam songs as I hadnt heard them in a > lng time. Naushad has a great talent, ARR possibly has some > resemblance of naushad's style of composing tunes out of notes. (I > didnt say melody ). After listening to them few times I'm of the view > that, to me, Mughal-e-Azam wont last for more than couple of hearings. > It is just not attractive for this era. Should ARR compose anything of > that (even with modern day reccording technology) it wont last even as > long as what he actually releases. ha ha ha. Dear Sahil, Now I have got you, as they say, lock-stock-and-barrel. What you said above is EXACTLY, VERBATIM, DITTO, the same as what was said about those persons who felt disappointed with Rising and Aa Aah in first hearings. So there. What gives? > Do you tell me Mughal-e-Azam does not have traits of 1960?? ( which is > when it was released I think) I dont know 1960s music well, but that > what it appears to me as initially. In one mail, I had listed some dozen films of 1960-63. Anyone knowing of the songs in these films would know how different MEA sounds was from those songs. In another mail, I had listed some dozen songs of these films which just won't fit MEA feel, and MEA wouldn't fit any of these movies. MEA had heavy instruments, loud voices, high bass, low treble. That is wh
[arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
My last reply was in a hurry so I missed the final point: In continuation of the discussion.. Would you blame God or those who do not explore spirituality to its depth to understand it? Similarly if people cant understand ARR music to depth then do they have the right to spill balme on ARR? Ofcourse tehy may not realise that. It cam be accepted if it did not suit their taste, or if they need more time to explore it. How dare they call it disappointing and below expectation?? And the most ridiculous of all, below ARR's standard.. like they have the right yardstick in the first place! --- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com, V S Rawat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/22/05 9:55 PM India Time, _ST_ wrote: > > > Rawat, thanks for replying.. its good to have a genuine discussion. > > > > You claim zubeidaa songs could have been placed into pukaar, but I > > think that example is picked just to enforce your point. > > The following is the list of zubaidaa songs. I feel that any > of the above could have been in pukaar album instead of > Zubaidaa. I was talking about the album and not the film, > but let me now give the situations in pukar as well. > > - dhiime.n\-dhiime.n gaa_uu.N - > Madhuri sings the above song in pukar in the beginning. > > - duur kahii.n ik aam kii bagiyaa ... pyaaraa saa gaa.Nv > In jail, Anil Kapoor recalls his mother sining the above > song to him in his childhood. > > - mahakii\-mahakii hai.n raahe.n ... hai.n naa > let it replace "sunta hai mera khuda" > > - meha.ndii hai rachanevaalii > Namrata shirodkar sings the above song thinking about her > marriage with anil kapoor > > - ra.ngiilii ho ... mai.n alabelii > madhuri sings the above song in some hotel performance > > - sayyaa.N chho.Do morii bayyaa.N sayyaa.N > namrata sings it anywhere > > - so gaye hai.n kho gaye hai.n dil ke afasaane > madhuri sings this song when she comes to know that Anil is > in love with Namrata > > Could you please enumerate which song(s) listed above would > sound out of place among pukaar songs? > > List of Pukar songs: (supposed be 2000 era) > > - aa jaa_o kii sab mil ke ... ek tuu hii bharosaa > - haay jaanaa.N > - naujavaano baat maano ... he ke saraa saraa saraa > - phir chalane vaale ... hamaraahii jab ho mastaanaa > - qismat se tum hamako mile ho kaise chho.De.Nge > - sunataa hai meraa Kudaa > > Considering the opposite, I now concede that "haay jaanaa" > and "sunta hai mera khuda" of Pukar can't be put in 1947 > earth, zubaida, lagaan. > > - "kay sara sara" could NOT be put in lagaan, but can go > well with zubaidaa and 1947 earth. > > Aren't other replacement possible from pukar to 1947 earth, > zubaida, lagaan > > - "ek tuu hii bharosaa" replaces "palanhare" even in film. > > - "kay sara sara" is sung by Manoj bajpai and Karisma on > their first meet in the hotel. > > - "hamarahi jab ho mastaanaa" replaces "hai naa" even in film. > > - "qismat se tum hamako mile ho" replaces "o rii chhorii". > > so on. > > > Look at the wider context. yes I agree zubeidaa, with some > > modifications, could be placed in other movies. It was a period movie, > > but the songs had general appeal with some modern day style. > > that is the whole point. Eventually, the "modern day style" > feel of these songs prevails over "period" feel of these > songs. Due to this very reason, critics and listeners have > just stopped giving any weightage to MD's claim of > "period"-ness of songs. > > > (yet it > > was one of the greatest albums to listen to). Now try claiming the > > same about Lagaan/zubeidaa or lagaan/pukaar, or imagine placing bose > > or Earth 1947 songs in other non period films. It wont work. Rising > > wont fit anywhere else, not even in other period movies. > > List of 1947 Earth songs (supposed to be 1947-ish) > > - banno raanii tumhe siyaanii honaa hii thaa > - dhiimii dhiimii bhiinii bhiinii > - iishvar allah tere jahaa.N me.n > - raat kii daladal hai gaa.Dhii re gaa.Dhii re > - rut aa ga_ii re rut chhaa ga_ii re > - ye jo zi.ndagii hai > > I do think that most of the above songs can be put in other > albums, of course not in outright modern albums like duniyaa > dilawaalon kii, etc. > > in fact, I feel "ye jo zi.ndagii hai", the song that I > consider the best single song of ARR, is having such a > modern, even a futuristic feel to it that it was totally out > of place among dhiimii dhiimii, raat kii daldal, ishwar > allaah of this film. > > >>When the director of Gandhi made efforts to get a steam > >>driven engine and paid all expenses to roll it on the rails, > >>then the sounds of that era was needed to go with that train. > > > > > >>You can't show a steam engine of 1918 having the sounds and > >>whistle of an electric engine. > > > > > > I agree, but is ARR doing that? I don't see that analogy extending > > beyond the example you have given. I dont remember if that was part of > > any music or purely sound fx of the
[arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
I'll try to make this short, but lets see how it goes.. When I said you picked zubeidaa songs to make your point I agreed that zubeidaa songs cont carry hard traits of the time ans can be replaced into others. Whereas laagaan, bose, rising are more irreplaceable. Partly because of the lyrics and accounts of history ingrained into the song, but partly also because of its sounds. > Aren't other replacement possible from pukar to 1947 earth, zubaida, lagaan Yes some will be possible, many not possible. Waltz of romance.. possible in other situations demanding waltz in an british presence, but clearly not otherwise.. so couldnt have been placed even in bose, or 1947 unless the director made changes to his view. And that is an unfair comparison. Chale chalo. sure could have replaced kadam karam badhae ja. Whereas the contrary is not a good choice because kadam kadam was a unique theme of Subhash's army. Still does that mean chale chalo is not unique to lagaan. It conveys every possible concept it needs to. The anger toward british rule, persevierence to beat the opponent, confronting in together in a team etc etc. It just so happens that Bose and lagaan had situations very similar and the song could be replaced. But that wont go into pukaar or swades. Oo palanhare and ek tuu hii bharosaa, sure. Context is pretty much the same. I dont know how much periodness comes into play when one is worshiping. I guess the period element in palan hare comes from the lytics e.g "bhakti ko shakdi do". "bhagvaan yeh jeevan, tumhe na savaro ke.." What I find amazing here is how well the melody fits those lyrics. So indirectly it does contain period elements doesnt it. Megha song.. no way wont replace anything! Mahive Mahive from LOBS.. with some modification could be placed in other period/non period situations. But not as it is, the tabla beats in the background are too reminiscent of the olden era. Ofcourse they probably dont resemble anythign of that time, it just creates that feeling. IM sure there are more examples.. just trying to make this one short. Yesterday I downloaded mughal-e-azam songs as I hadnt heard them in a lng time. Naushad has a great talent, ARR possibly has some resemblance of naushad's style of composing tunes out of notes. (I didnt say melody ). After listening to them few times I'm of the view that, to me, Mughal-e-Azam wont last for more than couple of hearings. It is just not attractive for this era. Should ARR compose anything of that (even with modern day reccording technology) it wont last even as long as what he actually releases. Do you tell me Mughal-e-Azam does not have traits of 1960?? ( which is when it was released I think) I dont know 1960s music well, but that what it appears to me as initially. > Eventually, the "modern day style" feel of these songs prevails over "period" feel of these songs. to me, over the time, the songs get ingrained into the movie. When I hear lagaan songs it will remind me of scenes from the movie, or give me some other feel that I had attatched most to that tune, but doesnt replace with modern day style feel. I'll concede from your examples that many songs of these films can be interchanged. But to me that does not put the songs out of place for the situation demanded, or the situation it arouses through my imagination! > Frankly, nobody knows or cares what sounds were used in > mughal era, but the past musicians have set a trend by using > those heavy instruments to denote the feel of that era. Now > people recognize those sounds to be the sounds of mughal > era. Agree. > If ARR changes those sounds to push some new sounds, > people might not digest it, and music and film will flop. Not. Lagaan songs did not flop. Earth 1947 did not flop (atleast among the audience I know of) > That is the first "misfit" aspect of the music. How do you know the director is not to be blamed for that? Do you really think any music director in his right mind would palce a voice of a little kid for a 30 something old lady? Sounds like miscommunicaiton of scenario from director to ARR. > but he agains comes us with songs like "dhaka lagaa bukaa" > and "shazaade nikale" which make peole remind of earlier > days and they switch their minds off from ARR. Agree. You're reading my mind too. How can you say the blame is not on people?? >But when ARR could manage to win the hearts of hindi crowd > with Rangeela, and later taal, now he has no locus standi in > saying that he could not understand hindi listeners. I'm sure he understands. The differene is not in musical culture of AR, i was talking about the audience. Sure some hit tamil film songs have been a success in the north, and many have not! If the demographics were the same most albums that were a hit in the south would be a hit in the north and vice versa, but the deviation is too large. He can give the audience another taal or dil se or rangeela. But thats not himi, he doesnt repeat themes. He keeps exp
Re: [arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
On 7/22/05 9:55 PM India Time, _ST_ wrote: > Rawat, thanks for replying.. its good to have a genuine discussion. > > You claim zubeidaa songs could have been placed into pukaar, but I > think that example is picked just to enforce your point. The following is the list of zubaidaa songs. I feel that any of the above could have been in pukaar album instead of Zubaidaa. I was talking about the album and not the film, but let me now give the situations in pukar as well. - dhiime.n\-dhiime.n gaa_uu.N - Madhuri sings the above song in pukar in the beginning. - duur kahii.n ik aam kii bagiyaa ... pyaaraa saa gaa.Nv In jail, Anil Kapoor recalls his mother sining the above song to him in his childhood. - mahakii\-mahakii hai.n raahe.n ... hai.n naa let it replace "sunta hai mera khuda" - meha.ndii hai rachanevaalii Namrata shirodkar sings the above song thinking about her marriage with anil kapoor - ra.ngiilii ho ... mai.n alabelii madhuri sings the above song in some hotel performance - sayyaa.N chho.Do morii bayyaa.N sayyaa.N namrata sings it anywhere - so gaye hai.n kho gaye hai.n dil ke afasaane madhuri sings this song when she comes to know that Anil is in love with Namrata Could you please enumerate which song(s) listed above would sound out of place among pukaar songs? List of Pukar songs: (supposed be 2000 era) - aa jaa_o kii sab mil ke ... ek tuu hii bharosaa - haay jaanaa.N - naujavaano baat maano ... he ke saraa saraa saraa - phir chalane vaale ... hamaraahii jab ho mastaanaa - qismat se tum hamako mile ho kaise chho.De.Nge - sunataa hai meraa Kudaa Considering the opposite, I now concede that "haay jaanaa" and "sunta hai mera khuda" of Pukar can't be put in 1947 earth, zubaida, lagaan. - "kay sara sara" could NOT be put in lagaan, but can go well with zubaidaa and 1947 earth. Aren't other replacement possible from pukar to 1947 earth, zubaida, lagaan - "ek tuu hii bharosaa" replaces "palanhare" even in film. - "kay sara sara" is sung by Manoj bajpai and Karisma on their first meet in the hotel. - "hamarahi jab ho mastaanaa" replaces "hai naa" even in film. - "qismat se tum hamako mile ho" replaces "o rii chhorii". so on. > Look at the wider context. yes I agree zubeidaa, with some > modifications, could be placed in other movies. It was a period movie, > but the songs had general appeal with some modern day style. that is the whole point. Eventually, the "modern day style" feel of these songs prevails over "period" feel of these songs. Due to this very reason, critics and listeners have just stopped giving any weightage to MD's claim of "period"-ness of songs. > (yet it > was one of the greatest albums to listen to). Now try claiming the > same about Lagaan/zubeidaa or lagaan/pukaar, or imagine placing bose > or Earth 1947 songs in other non period films. It wont work. Rising > wont fit anywhere else, not even in other period movies. List of 1947 Earth songs (supposed to be 1947-ish) - banno raanii tumhe siyaanii honaa hii thaa - dhiimii dhiimii bhiinii bhiinii - iishvar allah tere jahaa.N me.n - raat kii daladal hai gaa.Dhii re gaa.Dhii re - rut aa ga_ii re rut chhaa ga_ii re - ye jo zi.ndagii hai I do think that most of the above songs can be put in other albums, of course not in outright modern albums like duniyaa dilawaalon kii, etc. in fact, I feel "ye jo zi.ndagii hai", the song that I consider the best single song of ARR, is having such a modern, even a futuristic feel to it that it was totally out of place among dhiimii dhiimii, raat kii daldal, ishwar allaah of this film. >>When the director of Gandhi made efforts to get a steam >>driven engine and paid all expenses to roll it on the rails, >>then the sounds of that era was needed to go with that train. > > >>You can't show a steam engine of 1918 having the sounds and >>whistle of an electric engine. > > > I agree, but is ARR doing that? I don't see that analogy extending > beyond the example you have given. I dont remember if that was part of > any music or purely sound fx of the movie. Surely if needed ARR does > synthesize sounds of real situations. Train whistle, water dripping, > and even synth instruments that sound olden and unique. The example was just to highlight the "out-of-place" thing. ARR had already given several versions of janganman but he had to find yet another version for janganman in Bose (the snippet that was not in cassette/cd). ARR had already given some versions of vandemataram, but none of that can be put in bhagat singh or bose. Doing so would have created using electric engine whistle to a steam engine. Similarly, ARR's period songs are not trying enough to sound like a real steam engine, and that is what people object to. > If he used > purely situational instruments, singers with voices of that era, type > of tunes of that era, sounds without technological cleanup, then, > despite a good tune, once agian people would cl
[arr] Re: sick of "the music could have been better" (pls MUST READ for fans)
Rawat, thanks for replying.. its good to have a genuine discussion. You claim zubeidaa songs could have been placed into pukaar, but I think that example is picked just to enforce your point. Look at the wider context. yes I agree zubeidaa, with some modifications, could be placed in other movies. It was a period movie, but the songs had general appeal with some modern day style. (yet it was one of the greatest albums to listen to). Now try claiming the same about Lagaan/zubeidaa or lagaan/pukaar, or imagine placing bose or Earth 1947 songs in other non period films. It wont work. Rising wont fit anywhere else, not even in other period movies. > When the director of Gandhi made efforts to get a steam > driven engine and paid all expenses to roll it on the rails, > then the sounds of that era was needed to go with that train. > You can't show a steam engine of 1918 having the sounds and > whistle of an electric engine. I agree, but is ARR doing that? I don't see that analogy extending beyond the example you have given. I dont remember if that was part of any music or purely sound fx of the movie. Surely if needed ARR does synthesize sounds of real situations. Train whistle, water dripping, and even synth instruments that sound olden and unique. If he used purely situational instruments, singers with voices of that era, type of tunes of that era, sounds without technological cleanup, then, despite a good tune, once agian people would claim disappointment due to lack of innovation.. people will get bored. I guess the argument then is whether ARR's music should be genuine of that era or portray the ambience of that era using modern sounds. I personally think the latter is more difficult than the former, and I wouldn't mind either. So, certainly I am not going to call it any bit of disappointment because ARR chooses a more innovative option. Umrao Jaan was great, but not innovative. (my personal opinion, no fights please) > And, five minutes later comes the sounds of dhoomparani > which is also a lorii lullaby song like the above one. A > brilliant, lovely song, but it was a 2005 sound, not 1941's. When I hear ghoomparani I think of an era in the past, with an innocent girl of the past singing that song. Again, this one portray itself as being genuinely of the past, yet it suits the purpose.. and I doubt any song created with an effort to be genuinely of the past would suit more appropriately.. I doubt it would hold our attention for years to come? > However, ARR's most of the period albums fail on this count. > They did not have the feel of "older" times. They did. Just a different kind of feeling. One that is more subtle, one that builds an ambience of the situation. E.g. from zubeidaa.. "mein gumsum jo gaati javu piya, piya piya (then flute..)" There is some form of ARR magic in it because I can not explain it rationally. It is a Godly talent to articulate complex emotions. That line I just mentioned - it has a unique feel that fits so well in that movie. It portrays the level of innocence and delicacy in the girl that we could not expect today's women to carry (lol..) Followed by the flute tune which also somehow just doesn't fit a modern day scenario. ARR's music is a lot more intricate than work of most other Artists. I sincerely dont believe majority of the public, including the critics understand that. > Just six years ago, people loved ARR's Taal and Dil Se like > no other album was loved ever before. > Just four years ago, people loved ARR's Lagaan and showered > him with praises and awards. Yes, people loved Roja, Rangeela, Taal, Dil se, Lagaan. At the same time, the same people also didnt love as much many other great pieces of work of ARR. Sapnay, Vishwa Vidhata, and recently even Swades. So, we agree on this much. > I mean: People are always ready to like ARR's music. > That means: people could understand ARR's music then. > So, how come the same people are not giving much weight age > to ARR's recent releases? Is there a sudden conspiracy > against ARR. This is where we go different directions.. Let me pose this question. Why is it that many albums which are mega hits in the South fail in the North, and vice versa? It is not simply the matter of new lyrics in a different language. It is a matter of different types of crowd.. difference in musical culture. What I'm trying to get at is that there are different interpretations of musical art. Like with branches of science, there is an inherent ability in a person to think creatively and come up with new concepts, that is the ability of a good music composer. (while science reasons logically, music reasons artistically.. logical rational in science is replaced with our brain's ability to infer notes in an emotional way). Like with science, different people have different abilities to infer these concepts (musical notes). That clearly does not mean that majority is right. Actually, if anything science has taught us it is that
