[Assam] Harvard's IEP program - interview of Prof Reimers -changing the world?

[umesh sharma]

http://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/2006/0327_IEP.htmlUmesh Sharma5121 Lackawanna STCollege Park, MD 20740 1-202-215-4328 [Cell Phone]Ed.M. - International Education PolicyHarvard Graduate School of Education,Harvard University,Class of 2005
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Re: [Assam] caste system

[Rajen Barua]

>The question for Hindus is, do we have to 
become>"non-believers" for our religion to conform to 
modern>times? Shouldn't it be easier for us to change 
our>interpretations (or reject them entirely) because we>are not 
followers of THE book?
 
My two cents of above:
In fact that is what is being done 
in Hinduism in every age. Hinduism is one religion which had been 
interpreted and reinterpreted any which way you like so to say   That 
is what the reformers did during the middle ages in India.   
Shankarchaya came and interpreted the Gita, the Vedanta Brahma Slwko 
and the  Vedas in such way that Hinduism became strict monism almost 
like Buddhism and  there was not room left for a personal God for Bhaktivad 
 So Ramanujam and others had to reinterpret later and prove Shankarachaya wrong 
and create new rooms for Bhaktivad. In modern days, Ram Mohan Roy, 
Vivekananda, Gandhi, Tegore, Radhakrishnan and others have been redefining 
Hinduism their way. Hinduism has one advantage for re-interpretation 
because there are so many different scriptures and so very little were 
actually written in the original texts and in such symbolic language. If 
one does like one scripture, one can always pull things from other 
scriptures.  If one does like the Vedas, one can cite one of the 
Upanishads. In other religions, there are not much scope for fresh 
interpretations, because they have THE BOOKS, and one cannot do much 
reinterpretation of the same BOOK. In Hinduism, today one may say, 'We don't 
believe the Manusmriti' and I think no damage would be done. Does one have to 
believe the Vedas to remain a Hindu?  What about the Gita? What about 
'reincurnation' or the theory of 'karma'?  If one does not believe in any 
of these, is the guy still a Hindu?  The Xongkor Xongho do not believe the 
Vedas.  In fact Vivekananda had a hard time trying to come with a proper 
definition of a Hindu as to what minimum things he would have to believe 
and still claim that he was a Hindu. The greatest re interpretation of the 
Gita was by Gandhi, because fracnkly speaking he could not reconcile the fact 
that Lord Krishna was actually advising Arjun to fight and kill his own 
relatives in the Kurukshetra war. Ultimately he came up with the vision that 
Krishna was actually telling not of the real war but a war in the minds against 
evil.  So in Hinduism, first set your belief system as to what you 
like, and then find the specific scriptures which will support your view, and 
ignore the rest. You will remain a good Hindu without any conflict.  That 
is why I say, more than any other religion, Hinduism is more a 'political 
religion' . You are a Hindu because your father was a Hindu.
RB  
- Original Message - 
From: "Rajib Das" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Roy, Santanu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Chan Mahanta" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "xourov 
pathok" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] caste 
system
> Santanuda,> > Thanks as always for very considered 
responses. Yes, I> admit I couldn't escape putting in rhetoric there 
in> those list of questions.> > Let me put in further 
questions to your responses. I> will still await responses to my 
questions from the> rest of the group here.> > Further 
questions:> > 1. Are the 4 castes really, inextricably linked to 
the> > cycle of karma and rebirth? What I mean is - does 
it> find specific reference in the Rig Veda? Does it> specifically 
say that you have to "abide by the> bondage" of your caste to escape the 
karmic cycle? > > Or does it state that you escape the karmic 
cycle when> you follow "Dharma" and Dharma is not necessarily> 
defined by varna. > > 2. As per the original scriptures, is there 
a> gradation of incentive systems or really the incentive> system 
has just one incentive - moksha? Or escape from> the karmic cycle of 
births and rebirths. Meaning - it> really does not matter you are born 
into a particular> Varna - what matters is that you are born at 
all.> > 3. We know Islam (and Islamic society) is finding> 
itself difficult to reshape itself to modern times.> Christians in Europe 
are doing it by, in essence,> becoming non-believers. > > 
The question for Hindus is, do we have to become> "non-believers" for our 
religion to conform to modern> times? Shouldn't it be easier for us to 
change our> interpretations (or reject them entirely) because we> 
are not followers of THE book?> > 4. When I argue for certain 
tenets - such as the> hereditary nature of the Varna system (or the 
Varna> system itself) - does it really mean I am arguing for> a 
new religion? I would like not to think so. > > > > 
> --- "Roy, Santanu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:> > > Dear Rajib: > > I cannot answer all of 
your questions. I can see> > that some of them are> > 
rhetorical. There are others I really don't know the> > answers to.But 
I> > can try to put some kind of response for a few. > > 
> > 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer 

Re: [Assam] caste system

[Rajib Das]

Another question:

1. Isn't the concept of Jati distinctly different from
that of Varna in its original sense? And that Jatis
were codified under the Varna system only as late as
the 19th century? I have read somewhere - and this
might be wrong - that this codification started under
Islamic rulers and was finally firmed up by the Brits.
And that this firming up was more about political axes
to grind than anything else.

And is it possible that Jatis (or clans) moved Varnas
depending on what the clan leaders had accomplished
very much in their physical lives?


--- "Roy, Santanu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear Rajib: 
> I cannot answer all of your questions. I can see
> that some of them are
> rhetorical. There are others I really don't know the
> answers to.But I
> can try to put some kind of response for a few. 
> 
> 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and
> only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it
> posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical
> canvas?
> 
> SR: As I understand it, the 4 castes are
> inextricably tied to the reward
> and punishment structure posited by karma and
> rebirth. If you do very
> well, you will be reborn as a higher caste. If you
> do very badly, you
> may become a shudra or even worse, born as an
> animal. In each life, you
> pay or reap the rewards for your earlier lives.
> Therefore, you should
> accept your current station in life as a temporary
> state and abide by
> the bondages dutifully so that you can rise up in
> later lives. And if
> you do this very very well, you may even escape the
> cycle of birth and
> death some day. 
> 
> 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all
> right.
> But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas
> are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with
> the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not
> to
> be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will
> and
> action, would it change anything in the way we
> percieve things about Hinduism?
> 
> SR: Answer to last question: it would. It would
> screw up the incentive
> system tied to cycles of life and death as posited
> in the early
> scriptures. 
> 
>  
> 6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right
> from the time of when the transition of leadership
> was
> to happen from the prophet to his disciples and
> since
> it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of
> kufrs, should it be called "Unsalaam" or something
> and
> should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety?
> 
> SR: Islam is very much face to face with the
> contradictions between some
> of its core narrative and the values of modern
> society. This is the
> basic clash of civilizations we are supposed to be
> in the midst of. 
> 
> 7. Should Christianity with its reference to
> slavery,
> keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it
> was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and
> therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a
> Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety?
> 
> SR: I don't know much about this. The New Testament
> in effect does
> reject some of the tenets of the old testament. I am
> not aware of
> slavery being a central tenet of Christian faith at
> any point of time. I
> thought Christians themselves were enslaved and fed
> to lions in the
> first few centuries after Christ. As a
> philosophical, the Christian
> doctrine does not - as far as I am aware - propose
> slavery as a crucial
> element in the chain of earth and heaven.  I'd like
> to hear more about
> this. However, there are other aspects of core
> Christian tenets that may
> be in contradiction to modern life. Homosexuality,
> premarital sex,
> divorce and so on.  
> 
> 9. Why is the option of plainly denying the
> existence
> of "all these aspects" the only other way? Did any
> one
> of us really grow up with our parents teaching us
> the
> gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really
> look
> forward to the excitement of Durga Puja and other
> religious/social events? Has anyone denied my right
> to
> a Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman?
> 
> SR: The question you ask is whether you are still a
> Hindu (or why not)
> even though you may have violated or not believed in
> all this stuff.
> Nobody told you that you are not. I think this is
> not sufficient. 
> 
> More so, why would not a re-interpretation of the
> meaning of Varna (I assume no one has problems with
> Ashrama) be in the order of things? Or even the
> rejection of it?
> 
> After all there were enough reformers within the
> Hindu
> fold (and even Buddha wasn't exactly outside the
> Hindu
> fold in his life, was he?) who had enough following
> through the times to change things. 
> 
> SR: You are probably arguing in effect for a new
> philosophical system
> that is more in accordance with your view of life.
> That is a new
> religion. You may not call it so. 
> 
> 
> 10. And why should we forget what our forefathers
> did
> to our religion? Why should our kids not learn that
> there was for t

Re: [Assam] caste system

[Rajib Das]

Santanuda,

Thanks as always for very considered responses. Yes, I
admit I couldn't escape putting in rhetoric there in
those list of questions.

Let me put in further questions to your responses. I
will still await responses to my questions from the
rest of the group here.

Further questions:

1. Are the 4 castes really, inextricably linked to the

cycle of karma and rebirth? What I mean is - does it
find specific reference in the Rig Veda? Does it
specifically say that you have to "abide by the
bondage" of your caste to escape the karmic cycle? 

Or does it state that you escape the karmic cycle when
you follow "Dharma" and Dharma is not necessarily
defined by varna. 

2. As per the original scriptures, is there a
gradation of incentive systems or really the incentive
system has just one incentive - moksha? Or escape from
the karmic cycle of births and rebirths. Meaning - it
really does not matter you are born into a particular
Varna - what matters is that you are born at all.

3. We know Islam (and Islamic society) is finding
itself difficult to reshape itself to modern times.
Christians in Europe are doing it by, in essence,
becoming non-believers. 

The question for Hindus is, do we have to become
"non-believers" for our religion to conform to modern
times? Shouldn't it be easier for us to change our
interpretations (or reject them entirely) because we
are not followers of THE book?

4. When I argue for certain tenets - such as the
hereditary nature of the Varna system (or the Varna
system itself) - does it really mean I am arguing for
a new religion? I would like not to think so. 




--- "Roy, Santanu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear Rajib: 
> I cannot answer all of your questions. I can see
> that some of them are
> rhetorical. There are others I really don't know the
> answers to.But I
> can try to put some kind of response for a few. 
> 
> 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and
> only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it
> posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical
> canvas?
> 
> SR: As I understand it, the 4 castes are
> inextricably tied to the reward
> and punishment structure posited by karma and
> rebirth. If you do very
> well, you will be reborn as a higher caste. If you
> do very badly, you
> may become a shudra or even worse, born as an
> animal. In each life, you
> pay or reap the rewards for your earlier lives.
> Therefore, you should
> accept your current station in life as a temporary
> state and abide by
> the bondages dutifully so that you can rise up in
> later lives. And if
> you do this very very well, you may even escape the
> cycle of birth and
> death some day. 
> 
> 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all
> right.
> But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas
> are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with
> the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not
> to
> be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will
> and
> action, would it change anything in the way we
> percieve things about Hinduism?
> 
> SR: Answer to last question: it would. It would
> screw up the incentive
> system tied to cycles of life and death as posited
> in the early
> scriptures. 
> 
>  
> 6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right
> from the time of when the transition of leadership
> was
> to happen from the prophet to his disciples and
> since
> it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of
> kufrs, should it be called "Unsalaam" or something
> and
> should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety?
> 
> SR: Islam is very much face to face with the
> contradictions between some
> of its core narrative and the values of modern
> society. This is the
> basic clash of civilizations we are supposed to be
> in the midst of. 
> 
> 7. Should Christianity with its reference to
> slavery,
> keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it
> was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and
> therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a
> Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety?
> 
> SR: I don't know much about this. The New Testament
> in effect does
> reject some of the tenets of the old testament. I am
> not aware of
> slavery being a central tenet of Christian faith at
> any point of time. I
> thought Christians themselves were enslaved and fed
> to lions in the
> first few centuries after Christ. As a
> philosophical, the Christian
> doctrine does not - as far as I am aware - propose
> slavery as a crucial
> element in the chain of earth and heaven.  I'd like
> to hear more about
> this. However, there are other aspects of core
> Christian tenets that may
> be in contradiction to modern life. Homosexuality,
> premarital sex,
> divorce and so on.  
> 
> 9. Why is the option of plainly denying the
> existence
> of "all these aspects" the only other way? Did any
> one
> of us really grow up with our parents teaching us
> the
> gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really
> look
> forward to the excitement of Durga Puja an

Re: [Assam] caste system

[Roy, Santanu]

Dear Rajib: 
I cannot answer all of your questions. I can see that some of them are
rhetorical. There are others I really don't know the answers to.But I
can try to put some kind of response for a few. 

2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and
only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it
posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas?

SR: As I understand it, the 4 castes are inextricably tied to the reward
and punishment structure posited by karma and rebirth. If you do very
well, you will be reborn as a higher caste. If you do very badly, you
may become a shudra or even worse, born as an animal. In each life, you
pay or reap the rewards for your earlier lives. Therefore, you should
accept your current station in life as a temporary state and abide by
the bondages dutifully so that you can rise up in later lives. And if
you do this very very well, you may even escape the cycle of birth and
death some day. 

2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right.
But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas
are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with
the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to
be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and
action, would it change anything in the way we
percieve things about Hinduism?

SR: Answer to last question: it would. It would screw up the incentive
system tied to cycles of life and death as posited in the early
scriptures. 

 
6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right
from the time of when the transition of leadership was
to happen from the prophet to his disciples and since
it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of
kufrs, should it be called "Unsalaam" or something and
should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety?

SR: Islam is very much face to face with the contradictions between some
of its core narrative and the values of modern society. This is the
basic clash of civilizations we are supposed to be in the midst of. 

7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery,
keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it
was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and
therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a
Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety?

SR: I don't know much about this. The New Testament in effect does
reject some of the tenets of the old testament. I am not aware of
slavery being a central tenet of Christian faith at any point of time. I
thought Christians themselves were enslaved and fed to lions in the
first few centuries after Christ. As a philosophical, the Christian
doctrine does not - as far as I am aware - propose slavery as a crucial
element in the chain of earth and heaven.  I'd like to hear more about
this. However, there are other aspects of core Christian tenets that may
be in contradiction to modern life. Homosexuality, premarital sex,
divorce and so on.  

9. Why is the option of plainly denying the existence
of "all these aspects" the only other way? Did any one
of us really grow up with our parents teaching us the
gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really look
forward to the excitement of Durga Puja and other
religious/social events? Has anyone denied my right to
a Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman?

SR: The question you ask is whether you are still a Hindu (or why not)
even though you may have violated or not believed in all this stuff.
Nobody told you that you are not. I think this is not sufficient. 

More so, why would not a re-interpretation of the
meaning of Varna (I assume no one has problems with
Ashrama) be in the order of things? Or even the
rejection of it?

After all there were enough reformers within the Hindu
fold (and even Buddha wasn't exactly outside the Hindu
fold in his life, was he?) who had enough following
through the times to change things. 

SR: You are probably arguing in effect for a new philosophical system
that is more in accordance with your view of life. That is a new
religion. You may not call it so. 


10. And why should we forget what our forefathers did
to our religion? Why should our kids not learn that
there was for the longest time in history (and still
is) such gross injustice within our religious and
social order that things needed to change? And why
would they not accept it as a part of the bad they
inherit in as much as all the good they could? 



If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslims
would have an even tougher time defending their
religions to their children, wouldn't they?

SR: They do. It will become harder over time. We too should have a hard
time. My point is that some people are in denial. They don't want to
have a hard time. I am glad you are not in that set. 

Take care-

Santanu-da. 


--- Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny
> the existence of 
> >all these >aspects (as many on this net do) and
> then to march 
> >forward with a very >selective view of Hinduism
> that is in 
> >consonance with mo

Re: [Assam] caste system

[Ram Sarangapani]

Really good questions Rajib. I of course don't have answers for you. 
But specially this:
"If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslimswould have an even tougher time defending theirreligions to their children, wouldn't they?" 
But will await others who may have. 
 
--Ram da
 
On 3/27/06, Rajib Das <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Here are a few questions. Hopefully you guys cananswer:1. Is Varnashrama Dharma really the original name of
Hinduism or is it Sanatana Dharma?2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to andonly to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does itposit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas?2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right.
But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnasare defined by birth? Or did it come much later withthe likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not tobe defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and
action, would it change anything in the way wepercieve things about Hinduism?3. Does Hinduism (or if I may use the word SanatanaDharma) specify clearly to the infallibility of theVedas themselves in their entirety? Or is a Hindu
allowed to reject certain tenets?4. Does Hinduism (and do Hindus) leave theinterpretation of the Vedas (or their religion itself)to be changed over time or by different scholars?5. Is Varna the central tenet of Hinduism - more
specifically, is it specified anywhere in the Vedasthat a Hindu MUST believe in Varna? Even morespecifically, exactly how many shlokas (or whatpercentage) of the Rig Veda mention Varna?6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right
from the time of when the transition of leadership wasto happen from the prophet to his disciples and sinceit has enough mention in the Koran of killing ofkufrs, should it be called "Unsalaam" or something and
should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety?7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery,keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all itwas ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible andtherefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a
Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety?8. Should Atheism find its glory in every Godlesscommunist despot (including Pol Pot) that lead themost wanton killings in modern times and the rationale
they gave to those killings?Finally the last 2 questions:9. Why is the option of plainly denying the existenceof "all these aspects" the only other way? Did any oneof us really grow up with our parents teaching us the
gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really lookforward to the excitement of Durga Puja and otherreligious/social events? Has anyone denied my right toa Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman?
More so, why would not a re-interpretation of themeaning of Varna (I assume no one has problems withAshrama) be in the order of things? Or even therejection of it?After all there were enough reformers within the Hindu
fold (and even Buddha wasn't exactly outside the Hindufold in his life, was he?) who had enough followingthrough the times to change things.10. And why should we forget what our forefathers didto our religion? Why should our kids not learn that
there was for the longest time in history (and stillis) such gross injustice within our religious andsocial order that things needed to change? And whywould they not accept it as a part of the bad they
inherit in as much as all the good they could?If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslimswould have an even tougher time defending theirreligions to their children, wouldn't they?
--- Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> >The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny> the existence of> >all these >aspects (as many on this net do) and
> then to march> >forward with a very >selective view of Hinduism> that is in> >consonance with modern society and >liberal values.> The trouble with> >this approach is that in all honesty, you >cannot
> be very sure of> >what it is you are clutching on to & therefore, in> the >long run,> >are bound to run into certain contradictions -> perhaps as> >your >children question you
>>> *** Well said Santanu. But I am not sure the> inquisitive children are> enough  of a deterrence to that attempt at living in> a make-believe> world. I have seen 'children' of those who would
> choose to live in a> delusion, raised, indoctrinated and molded in the> image of their> parents :-), who grow up perfectly willing  to> perpetuate the myths> and the delusions.
>> At 9:57 PM -0600 3/26/06, Roy, Santanu wrote:> >Saurav,> >> >Thanks for your knowledgeable note.> >> >Two observations:
> >> >1. There are probably quite a few historical> instances where castes> >have been fostered within a non-Aryan jati or> community that has> >come into contact with mainstream Hinduism at a
> late stage. Indeed,> >the process by which an outside jati enters into> mainstream Hindu> >society must logically consist of at least two> social processes.> >First, the way the existing mainstream society -
> the uppe

Re: [Assam] caste system

[Rajib Das]

Here are a few questions. Hopefully you guys can
answer:

1. Is Varnashrama Dharma really the original name of
Hinduism or is it Sanatana Dharma?

2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and
only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it
posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas?

2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right.
But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas
are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with
the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to
be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and
action, would it change anything in the way we
percieve things about Hinduism?

3. Does Hinduism (or if I may use the word Sanatana
Dharma) specify clearly to the infallibility of the
Vedas themselves in their entirety? Or is a Hindu
allowed to reject certain tenets? 

4. Does Hinduism (and do Hindus) leave the
interpretation of the Vedas (or their religion itself)
to be changed over time or by different scholars? 

5. Is Varna the central tenet of Hinduism - more
specifically, is it specified anywhere in the Vedas
that a Hindu MUST believe in Varna? Even more
specifically, exactly how many shlokas (or what
percentage) of the Rig Veda mention Varna?

6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right
from the time of when the transition of leadership was
to happen from the prophet to his disciples and since
it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of
kufrs, should it be called "Unsalaam" or something and
should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety?

7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery,
keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it
was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and
therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a
Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety?

8. Should Atheism find its glory in every Godless
communist despot (including Pol Pot) that lead the
most wanton killings in modern times and the rationale
they gave to those killings?



Finally the last 2 questions:

9. Why is the option of plainly denying the existence
of "all these aspects" the only other way? Did any one
of us really grow up with our parents teaching us the
gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really look
forward to the excitement of Durga Puja and other
religious/social events? Has anyone denied my right to
a Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman?

More so, why would not a re-interpretation of the
meaning of Varna (I assume no one has problems with
Ashrama) be in the order of things? Or even the
rejection of it?

After all there were enough reformers within the Hindu
fold (and even Buddha wasn't exactly outside the Hindu
fold in his life, was he?) who had enough following
through the times to change things. 

10. And why should we forget what our forefathers did
to our religion? Why should our kids not learn that
there was for the longest time in history (and still
is) such gross injustice within our religious and
social order that things needed to change? And why
would they not accept it as a part of the bad they
inherit in as much as all the good they could? 

If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslims
would have an even tougher time defending their
religions to their children, wouldn't they?




--- Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny
> the existence of 
> >all these >aspects (as many on this net do) and
> then to march 
> >forward with a very >selective view of Hinduism
> that is in 
> >consonance with modern society and >liberal values.
> The trouble with 
> >this approach is that in all honesty, you >cannot
> be very sure of 
> >what it is you are clutching on to & therefore, in
> the >long run, 
> >are bound to run into certain contradictions -
> perhaps as 
> >your >children question you
> 
> 
> *** Well said Santanu. But I am not sure the
> inquisitive children are 
> enough  of a deterrence to that attempt at living in
> a make-believe 
> world. I have seen 'children' of those who would
> choose to live in a 
> delusion, raised, indoctrinated and molded in the
> image of their 
> parents :-), who grow up perfectly willing  to
> perpetuate the myths 
> and the delusions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 9:57 PM -0600 3/26/06, Roy, Santanu wrote:
> >Saurav,
> >
> >Thanks for your knowledgeable note.
> >
> >Two observations:
> >
> >1. There are probably quite a few historical
> instances where castes 
> >have been fostered within a non-Aryan jati or
> community that has 
> >come into contact with mainstream Hinduism at a
> late stage. Indeed, 
> >the process by which an outside jati enters into
> mainstream Hindu 
> >society must logically consist of at least two
> social processes. 
> >First, the way the existing mainstream society -
> the upper castes - 
> >in particular, view the community in question - an
> exogenous aspect. 
> >Second, the way the jati views itself and reshapes
> & redefines its 
> >own social stratifi

Re: [Assam] From TOI

[Ram Sarangapani]

Hi C'da,

>Does this report help you any in rethinking your recommendations >to the voters of the other day?
 
"Could be. But its more than that - its a cultural mindset. The public probably knows this but really don't care. In today's Assam, politicians looting the public coffers is NOT a crime any more. 

The voters have got themselves into the upai nai culture. Thats the truth."
 
Thats what I wrote the other day. It was meant for the 'educated, all-knowing' urban voter. They know very well that the politicians are out to bilk them, but don't seem to be much bothered as they may not be directly affected.

 
As for the rural voter, who is enticed by Rs. 50 and a meal, and is willing to listen to corrupt politicians speaking a strange language its a different ballgame.
 
On the one hand, I cannot advice them NOT to accept even the Rs. 50. It must be a formidiable amount - maybe even a month's wages.
They will take what comes their way.
Its a sad situation in the rural setting.  Well-meaning educated classes, have the crucial role of educating the rural masses in politics and their rights as citizens. The rural population could at election time make demands of things they may need from ministers (electricity, punps, irrigations, fertilizers etc). 

 
--Ram 
On 3/27/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Ram:
 
Does this report help you any in rethinking your recommendations to the voters of the other day?
 
 
Not that we needed the ToI report to form our views. But I thought perhaps those of you who had been away for long, it could have come in handy.
 
:-)
c-da

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
At 10:52 AM -0600 3/27/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
That was an interesting piece Santanu. Several things come to mind (not surprising though).
 
The voter is clueless. and can be easily duped
 
"Maybe she spoke something good about our village. So I clapped along with the rest," Makon replied with a smile when asked if she understood what Swaraj had spoken. She also admitted that she had no idea who the speaker was.

The politician knows this and takes full advantage of the situation.  They could have easily just waved their hands in the air and speak Greek to cajole the voters.
 
and the voters can be bought (very cheaply at that):
 
"We were provided free lunch and Rs 50 for coming to the meeting," a Congress supporter said at one meeting. "
--Ram da
 
On 3/27/06, Roy, Santanu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Body language matters in Assam polls"Its an instructive bit of news.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1465254,curpg-1.cms___assam mailing list
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Re: [Assam] From TOI

[Chan Mahanta]

Title: Re: [Assam] From TOI


Ram:

Does this report help you any in rethinking your recommendations
to the voters of the other day?


Not that we needed the ToI report to form our views. But I
thought perhaps those of you who had been away for long, it could have
come in handy.

:-)
c-da







At 10:52 AM -0600 3/27/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
That was an interesting piece Santanu.
Several things come to mind (not surprising though).
 
The voter is clueless. and can be easily
duped
 
"Maybe she spoke something good
about our village. So I clapped along with the rest," Makon
replied with a smile when asked if she understood what Swaraj had
spoken. She also admitted that she had no idea who the speaker
was.

The politician knows this and takes full
advantage of the situation.  They could have easily just
waved their hands in the air and speak Greek to cajole the
voters.
 
and the voters can be bought (very
cheaply at that):
 
"We were provided free lunch and
Rs 50 for coming to the meeting," a Congress supporter said at
one meeting. "

--Ram da



 
On 3/27/06, Roy, Santanu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Body language matters in Assam polls"
Its an instructive bit of news.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1465254,curpg-1.cms



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Re: [Assam] From TOI

[Ram Sarangapani]

That was an interesting piece Santanu. Several things come to mind (not surprising though).
 
The voter is clueless. and can be easily duped
 
"Maybe she spoke something good about our village. So I clapped along with the rest," Makon replied with a smile when asked if she understood what Swaraj had spoken. She also admitted that she had no idea who the speaker was. 

The politician knows this and takes full advantage of the situation.  They could have easily just waved their hands in the air and speak Greek to cajole the voters.
 
and the voters can be bought (very cheaply at that):
 
"We were provided free lunch and Rs 50 for coming to the meeting," a Congress supporter said at one meeting. "
--Ram da

 
On 3/27/06, Roy, Santanu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Body language matters in Assam polls"Its an instructive bit of news.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1465254,curpg-1.cms___assam mailing listassam@assamnet.org
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
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[Assam] From TOI

[Roy, Santanu]

"Body language matters in Assam polls"
Its an instructive bit of news.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1465254,curpg-1.cms



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Re: [Assam] caste system

[Chan Mahanta]

>The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny the existence of 
>all these >aspects (as many on this net do) and then to march 
>forward with a very >selective view of Hinduism that is in 
>consonance with modern society and >liberal values. The trouble with 
>this approach is that in all honesty, you >cannot be very sure of 
>what it is you are clutching on to & therefore, in the >long run, 
>are bound to run into certain contradictions - perhaps as 
>your >children question you


*** Well said Santanu. But I am not sure the inquisitive children are 
enough  of a deterrence to that attempt at living in a make-believe 
world. I have seen 'children' of those who would choose to live in a 
delusion, raised, indoctrinated and molded in the image of their 
parents :-), who grow up perfectly willing  to perpetuate the myths 
and the delusions.









At 9:57 PM -0600 3/26/06, Roy, Santanu wrote:
>Saurav,
>
>Thanks for your knowledgeable note.
>
>Two observations:
>
>1. There are probably quite a few historical instances where castes 
>have been fostered within a non-Aryan jati or community that has 
>come into contact with mainstream Hinduism at a late stage. Indeed, 
>the process by which an outside jati enters into mainstream Hindu 
>society must logically consist of at least two social processes. 
>First, the way the existing mainstream society - the upper castes - 
>in particular, view the community in question - an exogenous aspect. 
>Second, the way the jati views itself and reshapes & redefines its 
>own social stratification using the adopted language and mirrors of 
>mainstream Hindu society -an endogenous aspect. Indeed, these two 
>processes need not be congruent. The relics of these processes are 
>found in several low caste untouchable communities that have their 
>own "Brahmins". To the mainstream outsider, they are all 
>untouchable, but to the insider there is a caste system within - a 
>microcosm of the society that lies above them. A similar stru!
>  cture is also observed with respect to many tribes prior to the 
>importing of Brahmins from mainstream society.
>
>2. The varna system, like many other aspects of Hindu society, is in 
>fundamental contradiction with modern society. The question in my 
>mind is not whether Hinduism can be reformed. The real question is 
>how will Hindus resolve these contradictions between what they ought 
>to hold sacred and the needs of actual material life in today's 
>society.
>
>One option is to stand by the varna system and all other traditional 
>mores, to oppose liberal western values and in effect, do a 
>fundamentalist jig.
>
>The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny the existence of 
>all these aspects (as many on this net do) and then to march forward 
>with a very selective view of Hinduism that is in consonance with 
>modern society and liberal values. The trouble with this approach is 
>that in all honesty, you cannot be very sure of what it is you are 
>clutching on to & therefore, in the long run, are bound to run into 
>certain contradictions - perhaps as your children question you 
>
>A third option would be to abandon the grand tradition altogether 
>and, in effect, convert to religious orders that have their own 
>philosphical systems that, even though historically rooted in the 
>grand narrative, actually offer a distinct axiomatic system 
>(Buddhism and Jainism were among the many such early orders, as were 
>some of the Vaishnava orders). The third option is essentially 
>fractious and inimical to the cause of a grand Hindu identity. But 
>it may well be the most honest and logical way out for those who 
>seek a religion.
>
>Santanu-da.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of xourov pathok
>Sent: Mon 3/27/2006 4:37 AM
>To: assam@assamnet.org
>Subject: [Assam] caste system
>
>a short note on the caste system:
>
>the varna system, which found its first mention in the
>rig veda itself, has been the only unbroken tradition
>of hinduism.  gods have come and gone (from indra to
>rudra to krishna), forms of worship has changed (from
>yajnas to puja) but the varna system has persisted.
>there is an oft repeated dictum, that hinduism did not
>have a name for itself earlier.  this is not true.
>the name of the religion was varnashram dharma.  the
>varna system is the most defining aspect of hinduism.
>
>another dictum is that it divides.  this also is
>untrue.  in fact the varna system makes it possible
>for a jati to place itself in a readymade order.  this
>is important because there is no personal conversion
>system in hinduism.  instead entire jatis are
>converted (by placing them in the varna system), like
>the scythians and the koches were made hindus by
>placing them in the kshatriya varna.  this is
>important.  because it lets, say, a sarma or a barua
>from assam relate in a some meaningful way with a
>aiyar or an iyengar from tamil nadu.
>
>since the varna system is the most defining asp

Re: [Assam] caste system

[Chan Mahanta]

Thanks Xourov for another extremely well researched, informative and thoughtful
piece.







At 11:37 AM -0800 3/26/06, xourov pathok wrote:
>a short note on the caste system:
>
>the varna system, which found its first mention in the
>rig veda itself, has been the only unbroken tradition
>of hinduism.  gods have come and gone (from indra to
>rudra to krishna), forms of worship has changed (from
>yajnas to puja) but the varna system has persisted.
>there is an oft repeated dictum, that hinduism did not
>have a name for itself earlier.  this is not true.
>the name of the religion was varnashram dharma.  the
>varna system is the most defining aspect of hinduism.
>
>another dictum is that it divides.  this also is
>untrue.  in fact the varna system makes it possible
>for a jati to place itself in a readymade order.  this
>is important because there is no personal conversion
>system in hinduism.  instead entire jatis are
>converted (by placing them in the varna system), like
>the scythians and the koches were made hindus by
>placing them in the kshatriya varna.  this is
>important.  because it lets, say, a sarma or a barua
>from assam relate in a some meaningful way with a
>aiyar or an iyengar from tamil nadu.
>
>since the varna system is the most defining aspect of
>hinduism, how can you remove or reform it out of the religion?
>
>__
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[Assam] Fw: NYTimes.com: Bush Was Set on Path to War, Memo by British Adviser Says

[Rajen Barua]

Title: E-Mail This



 


  
  
 

  


   
  



  
  

  
   


   
  

  

  This page was sent to you 
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Message from sender:But behind 
closed doors, the president was certain that war was inevitable. 
During a private two-hour meeting in the Oval Office on Jan. 31, 
2003, he made clear to Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain that he 
was determined to invade Iraq without the second resolution, or even 
if international arms inspectors failed to find unconventional 
weapons, said a confidential memo about the meeting written by Mr. 
Blair's top foreign policy adviser and reviewed by The New York 
Times. "Our diplomatic strategy had to be arranged around the 
military planning," David Manning, Mr. Blair's chief foreign policy 
adviser at the time, wrote in the memo that summarized the 
discussion between Mr. Bush, Mr. Blair and six of their top aides. 
INTERNATIONAL / EUROPE   | March 27, 
2006 Leaders:  
Bush Was Set on Path to War, Memo by British Adviser Says 
By DON VAN NATTA Jr. Behind closed 
doors, the president made clear to Prime Minister Tony Blair of 
Britain that he was determined to invade Iraq. 

  
  


   
  
  

  
  
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