Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
Alpana:
I hope you could
see and clarify the point I was making. Modern Indian languages did not come
through Sanskrit. These came through the Pakrits. Sanskrit remained fixed in
time as a written language because people stopped speaking it on the
street. It is only in modern times that these Indian languages are using
Sanskrit as a rich source of old words which were retained by Sanskrit. Thus
when I say Sanskrit is a dead language I did not say that in a derogatory sense.
A language is called dead, ie not living, when nobody claim that language as a
mother tongue. No mother speaks in Sanskrit to her child today. That is it.
Otherwise, yes, there is a huge literature in Sanskrit not to speak of huge
Hindu scriptures (which is however in Vedic Sanskrit language). I have also
heard there some Sanskrit speaking clubs. I wrote this because I got the
impression that you may bethinking I am writing against the Sanskrit
language itself. That is far from it. I love Sanskrit. I think you have seen the
following tribute to the Sanskrit language by Sir William Jones:
"The Sanskrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of wonderful
structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more
exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger
affinity, both in the roots of verbs and in the forms of grammar, than could not
possibly have been produced by accident; so strong indeed, that no philologer
could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some
common source which, perhaps, no longer exists; there is a similar reason,
though not quite so forcible, for supposing that both the Gothic and the Celtic,
though blended with a very different idiom, had the same origin with the
Sanskrit; and the old Persian might be added to the same family..."
But my point is let not this
beautiful language try to change our simple Assamese language from the top
because that will create a huge gap what people are speaking on the street and
what is being written by the scholars. A language should develop and flow from
and by the people on the street. If Assamese are to loose the X sound tomorrow,
let the people on the street loose it, but not because some Sanskrit lover
Assamese scholars areSanskritising the Assamese language from the
top. Xongkordev was a great Sanskrit scholar, but he chose to write in
Assamese-Brojawoli and he did it without any influence from Sanskrit.
Probaly you know that he was the first to use the word OXOM in the
Kirton.
That is my
point.
Barua
- Original Message -
From:
Rajen Barua
To: Alpana B. Sarangapani ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: assam@assamnet.org ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 1:19
PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom,
phonetically speaking
They had to come
through Sanskrit (panini's grammar 600-650 B.C.).
Alpana:
No. This is not correct. Please
read that chart again. The Sanskrit (Panini's grammar 600-650BC) is actually
shown as a dead end. The languages are actually coming from the other branch
(where Sanskrit is not there) the old Prakits : Sauraseni, Prachya etc and
ultimately Magdhi, Rajasthani, etc.
Please read the chart
againagain and you will see what I am saying. Even than if you have
question, I can clarify.
Thanks for the site.
Barua
- Original Message -
From:
Alpana B. Sarangapani
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 11:21
AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom,
phonetically speaking
history of the Indian
languages carefully. It is tricky. Sanskrit, by definition, is a dead
language, which means it ended in itself. As such none of the Indian
regionallanguages are derived from Sanskrit. None. Assamese,
Bengali, Oriya and all the Indo-Aryan languages in India are derived
from different Pakrit languages like
http://banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/B_0137.HTM
Please see the chart in the above
web site.
You can say the Indo-Aryan
languages came from the Ancient Prakrit
(800 B.C., Old/spoken
Indo-Aryan) languages, yes. Butthey did not come
directly from there. They wereNOT Assamese or
Bengalithen or the other modern Indian languages that we have now.
They had to come through Sanskrit (panini's
grammar 600-650 B.C.).
Sanskrit is from 600/650 B.C. and
the ancient Prakrit (old spoken Indo-Aryan) is from 800 B.C., which is also
dead and from which Sanskrit itselfcame from. They themselves are dead
but their descendents are the modern languages.
So the argument:
language, which means it
ended in itself. As such none of the Indian regionallanguages are
derived from Sanskrit. None. Assames
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
Title: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Hi ya'll, Thanks much for the very informative discourse. I learnt a LOT from your discussions and Rajen's very fine and hard work spanning all these years. Alpana's work helped get the story together. cm At 4:36 PM -0600 3/10/06, Barua25 wrote: The word Sanskrit means completed, refined, perfected. Sum (Complete) + krt (created). Virtually every Sanskrit student in India learns the traditional story that Sanskrit was created and then refined over many generations (traditionally more than a thousand years) until it was considered complete and perfect. The original crude language from which Sanskrit was derived could be Prakrit. Alpana: You are right. The above statement is taken from one of the websites you referred. The above statement seems toexplain it better. The original crude language from which Sanskrit was derived could be Prakrit. Our modern Indian languages also are derived from this original crude lanugae called Prakit.So from the same original crude Prakit language one branch(es) became our modern Indian languages and the other branch became more refined and structured and became Sanskrit. Now if we keep our conception to this, everything would seem clear. But the problem is sometimes some scholars would throw the word Sanskrit even to the poriginal Prakitand thrhow statements that all our languages are actually derived from Sanskrit. That is when people get confused. But once we know the basics, it should be clear. At least that is how I undertstand. Thanks for the sites. Those are great. Barua - Original Message - From: Alpana B. Sarangapani To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: assam@assamnet.org ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Barua: Thanks for your note. I might have to get back to you laterif these simple sites are not convincing. In simple words, Sanskrit was too hard for the commoners, so they had to use some'aprabhramsha'(?) - words in simpler form were created whichin turn became 'Prakrits' - meaning actual words instead of them being abstract. But the origin of these still came from Sanskrit. There is a new school of philosophy comprised ofdifferent researcheres, whobelievethat the 'Prakrits' are as original as Sanskrit, to which like many traditional thinkers (who have provided enough evidences), I don'tapparently :)belong. Pleaserefere tothis web site: http://www.fact-index.com/s/sa/sanskrit.html,where it says Sanskrit is also the ancestor of the prakrit languages of India. Also this: http://www.fact-index.com/p/pr/prakrit.html.,- it says: We might say that the Prakrits are to Sanskrit as Vulgar Latin and the Romance languages are to Classical Latin. From: Rajen Barua [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Rajen Barua [EMAIL PROTECTED],Alpana B. Sarangapani [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: assam@assamnet.org,[EMAIL PROTECTED],texamese@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:52:33 -0600 Alpana: I hope you could see and clarify the point I was making. Modern Indian languages did not come through Sanskrit. These came through the Pakrits. Sanskrit remained fixed in time as a written language because people stopped speaking it on the street. It is only in modern times that these Indian languages are using Sanskrit as a rich source of old words which were retained by Sanskrit. Thus when I say Sanskrit is a dead language I did not say that in a derogatory sense. A language is called dead, ie not living, when nobody claim that language as a mother tongue. No mother speaks in Sanskrit to her child today. That is it. Otherwise, yes, there is a huge literature in Sanskrit not to speak of huge Hindu scriptures (which is however in Vedic Sanskrit language). I have also heard there some Sanskrit speaking clubs. I wrote this because I got the impression that you may bethinking I am writing against the Sanskrit language itself. That is far from it. I love Sanskrit. I think you have seen the following tribute to the Sanskrit language by Sir William Jones: The Sanskrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and in the forms of grammar, than could not possibly have been produced by accident; so strong indeed, that no philologer could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some common source which, perhaps, no longer exists; there is a similar reason, though not quite so forcible, for supposing that both the Gothic and the Celtic, though blended with a very different idiom, had the same origin with the Sanskrit; and the old Persian might be added to the same family... But my point is let not this beautiful language try to change
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
But you missed this: Sanskrit is also the ancestor of the Prakrit languages of India, such as Pali and Ardhamagadhi. That's why I said there are(at least)twodifferent schools of scholars that believe two different things now, as opposed to one who taught the students that Sanskrit is the mother of all Indian languages. So are we back to square one again? :) Not so fast, C'da. I think I actually confused (or will)you by my findings on the traditional belief of Sanskrit being the origin of all the Indian languages. :) I just produced sites here that have both sides and and find it hard tocome to a conclusion without finding out why the other sideisso convinced to what they are saying.So the confusion overa "done deal"(of a traditional thinkingthat Sanskrit is the original language) still goes on, as far as I am concerned, sorry. :) From: "Barua25" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "Alpana B. Sarangapani" [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED]CC: assam@assamnet.org,[EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speakingDate: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 16:36:55 -0600 The word Sanskrit means completed, refined, perfected. Sum (Complete) + krt (created). Virtually every Sanskrit student in India learns the traditional story that Sanskrit was created and then refined over many generations (traditionally more than a thousand years) until it was considered complete and perfect. The original crude language from which Sanskrit was derived could be Prakrit. Alpana: You are right. The above statement is taken from one of the websites you referred. The above statement seems toexplain it better. The original crude language from which Sanskrit was derived could be Prakrit. Our modern Indian languages also are derived from this original crude lanugae called Prakit.So from the same original crude Prakit language one branch(es) became our modern Indian languages and the other branch became more refined and structured and became Sanskrit. Now if we keep our conception to this, everything would seem clear. But the problem is sometimes some scholars would throw the word Sanskrit even to the poriginal Prakitand thrhow statements that all our languages are actually derived from Sanskrit. That is when people get confused. But once we know the basics, it should be clear. At least that is how I undertstand. Thanks for the sites. Those are great. Barua - Original Message - From: Alpana B. Sarangapani To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: assam@assamnet.org ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Barua: Thanks for your note. I might have to get back to you laterif these simple sites are not convincing. In simple words, Sanskrit was too hard for the commoners, so they had to use some'aprabhramsha'(?) - words in simpler form were created whichin turn became 'Prakrits' - meaning actual words instead of them being abstract. But the origin of these still came from Sanskrit. There is a new school of philosophy comprised ofdifferent researcheres, whobelievethat the 'Prakrits' are as original as Sanskrit, to which like many traditional thinkers (who have provided enough evidences), I don'tapparently :)belong. Pleaserefere tothis web site: http://www.fact-index.com/s/sa/sanskrit.html,where it says "Sanskrit is also the ancestor of the prakrit languages of India." Also this: http://www.fact-index.com/p/pr/prakrit.html.,- it says: "We might say that the Prakrits are to Sanskrit as Vulgar Latin and the Romance languages are to Classical Latin." From: "Rajen Barua" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "Rajen Barua" [EMAIL PROTECTED],"Alpana B. Sarangapani" [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED]CC: assam@assamnet.org,[EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speakingDate: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:52:33 -0600 Alpana: I hope you could see and clarify the point I was making. Modern Indian languages did not come through Sanskrit. These came through the Pakrits. Sanskrit remained fixed in time as a written language because people stopped speaking it on the street. It is only in modern times that these Indian languages are using Sanskrit as a rich source of old words which were retained by Sanskrit. Thus when I say Sanskrit is a dead language I did not say that in a derogatory sense. A language is called dead, ie not living, when nobody claim that language as a mother tongue. No mother speaks in Sanskrit to her child today. That is it. Otherwise, yes, there is a huge literature in Sanskrit not to speak of huge Hindu scriptures (which is however in Vedic Sanskrit language). I have also heard there some Sanskrit speaking clubs. I wrote this because I got the impression that you may bethinking I am writing against the Sanskrit language itself. That is far from it. I love Sanskrit. I think you have seen the
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
ip role being played by Oxom Xahityo Xobha? The one genuine scholar left in Assam, Dr Golok Ch Goswami is probably so frustrated that he decided not to speak in such mundane latters. But what I am saying, he supports me specially regarding the X sound and the use of W for W-kar in Roman script. Another point is that Assamese has only one O and one Ah. Hindi and Sanskrit have A=Horso Ah, then AA=Dirgho Ah. So when they write A, the sound is always short Ah like U=Up. Assamese say Onil, in Hindi they say Anil with Ah. All the Assamese names like Anjana, Ajanta, Archana, Anil etc, in Assamese we pronounce with O. But the same words are pronounced with Ah by the mainland Indians in Hindi, Sanskrit. That is why when we write Asom, an Assamese might pronounce Osom, but Hindi and Sanskrit will pronounceUsom. See the spelling of the word Dalda in Hindi. It is written as Dolda but pronounced as Dalda. All these are happening because (litikai) Assamese aretrying to follow the Hindi, Sanskrit group blindly without real that Assamese language is a much more simpler language like Pail, and that it has its separate originality and beauty. We need to retain the lost originality of the Assamese language. We need to stand up and say, we no longer follow you mainland India blindly. We have our originality which we need to retain. Anyhow these areis my points. I hope I am not confusing you. Rajen Barua. - Original Message - From: Ram Sarangapani To: Rajen Barua Cc: assam@assamnet.org ; Chan Mahanta ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Hi Barua, I am glad the Statesman publised your article. It is quite informative and one can lear a lot. But reading the papers and letters to the editor, one gets the inpression, ASOM is here to stay and the GOA is backing it up. While browsing, I did come across several references to Assamese as derivative of Sanskrit (you of course do not agree with this). Some of the sources refered to Bani Kanta Kakati, Hemkox etc. I can send you some of these if I come across them. I don't know how authentic they are. BTW: Here is a link that may interest you and others regarding the "voiceless velar fricative " The link is very interesting and refers to Assamese also. Interestingly, it seems the English language sometimes also uses the voiceless velar fricative. Here is the link. http://www.answers.com/topic/voiceless-velar-fricative Hope it is useful to you. --Ram On 3/7/06, Rajen Barua [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks. The Statesman, Kolkatahasalready published it. A friendfrom Kolkata sent it to me. We will have to keep on fighting. "Amar Oxom" Editor Dr Nagen Saikia, Ex Oxom Xahityo Xobha President, is preparing to publish my article in Assamese and contunue the debate. I think this is an issue for Assamese lifeline. Many have not seen it as such yet. Let us see. Thanks for your support. Rajen - Original Message - From: Chan Mahanta To: Rajen Barua ; assam@assamnet.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Good note Rajen. Hope they publish it. c At 8:33 AM -0600 3/7/06, Rajen Barua wrote: Letters to the editor THE STATESMAN, KOLKATA 4 March 2006 Asom or Oxom, phonetically speakingSir, I am writing this letter with reference to a decision by the Assam government to change the name of the state to Asom. This is a wrong decision for certain reasons. Asom is a Sanskritised spelling and not an Assamese spelling. The proper Assamese spelling in the Roman script should be Oxom. The Assamese gutteral kh sound is a well-recognised velar fricative, and is also found among other languages including Greek and Russian. The International Phonetic Association has designated the Greek letter, 'X', for this Assamese sound. This sound is not represented by the letter, 'S', as written in the word Asom. As such it is 'X' and not 'S' that should be used. Again, the first letter should be 'O' and not 'A'. The letter 'A' is used in Sanskrit and Hindi where they have two 'A's. In Assamese we have only one 'A'. The correct vowel for the Assamese pronunciation should be 'O'. The Assam government by taking a decision to use the Sanskritised form of spelling Asom instead of Oxom is trying to kill the proper Assamese ethnic sound 'XO'. This will be a great letdown for the entire Assamese people, and we request the Assam government not to meddle with the Assamese language. If it has to change the name, it should adopt the correct spelling, i.e. Oxom. Yours, etc., Rajen Barua,Katy (Texas), USA, 4 March. ___assam mailing listassam@assamnet.orghttp://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org ___assam mailing listassam@assamnet.org http://assamnet
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
They had to come through Sanskrit (panini's grammar 600-650 B.C.). Alpana: No. This is not correct. Please read that chart again. The Sanskrit (Panini's grammar 600-650BC) is actually shown as a dead end. The languages are actually coming from the other branch (where Sanskrit is not there) the old Prakits : Sauraseni, Prachya etc and ultimately Magdhi, Rajasthani, etc. Please read the chart againagain and you will see what I am saying. Even than if you have question, I can clarify. Thanks for the site. Barua - Original Message - From: Alpana B. Sarangapani To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; assam@assamnet.org Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking history of the Indian languages carefully. It is tricky. Sanskrit, by definition, is a dead language, which means it ended in itself. As such none of the Indian regionallanguages are derived from Sanskrit. None. Assamese, Bengali, Oriya and all the Indo-Aryan languages in India are derived from different Pakrit languages like http://banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/B_0137.HTM Please see the chart in the above web site. You can say the Indo-Aryan languages came from the Ancient Prakrit (800 B.C., Old/spoken Indo-Aryan) languages, yes. Butthey did not come directly from there. They wereNOT Assamese or Bengalithen or the other modern Indian languages that we have now. They had to come through Sanskrit (panini's grammar 600-650 B.C.). Sanskrit is from 600/650 B.C. and the ancient Prakrit (old spoken Indo-Aryan) is from 800 B.C., which is also dead and from which Sanskrit itselfcame from. They themselves are dead but their descendents are the modern languages. So the argument: language, which means it ended in itself. As such none of the Indian regionallanguages are derived from Sanskrit. None. Assamese, Bengali, Oriya and does not hold any water. One can say Sanskrit itself came from the ancient Prakrit languages (old/spoken Indo-Aryan). But to become the modern Indo-Aryan languages like Assamese,Bengali, Oriya,etc. they had to come through the stages of which Sanskrit was amain one. Latinhas becomea dead language, but isn't it a fact that the modern Indo-European languages are descended from it?? Both Latin and Sanskrit are dead languages but are still alive in new forms. Disclaimer: From a non- expert (on languages, in this case)whotrys todig up and put forward vaild arguments against something that sounds outrageous sometimes, but is always open to accept counterarguments. :-) From: "Rajen Barua" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "Ram Sarangapani" [EMAIL PROTECTED]CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], assam@assamnet.orgSubject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speakingDate: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:46:06 -0600 Ram: Thanks for the site. It is great. Regarding Assamese and other languages coming from Sanskrit, please read the history of the Indian languages carefully. It is tricky. Sanskrit, by definition, is a dead language, which means it ended in itself. As such none of the Indian regionallanguages are derived from Sanskrit. None. Assamese, Bengali, Oriya and all the Indo-Aryan languages in India are derived from different Pakrit languages like Magadhi, Sauraseni, etc. Now these Pakrit languages are derived from some Vedic and pre Vedic languages. Sanskrit itself was one language which was derived from some pre Vedic language. However, Panini standardized Sanskrit and made many changes phonetically (we lost X sound) and grammatically. However due to Panini's strict rules, Sanskrit remained as a fixed written language, fixed in time forever. That is why it is called a dead language. From above, it should be very clear that Sanskrit cannot be the mother language on any of the Indo Aryan languages: Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Marthi etc. Sanskrit can be strictly speaking a cousin language. But if a dead language can have power, it is Sanskrit which have been influencing the Indians greatly. Many educated Indians (I mean scholars) make the mistake again and again. How many times you will hear Indians stating that all Indian languages are derived from Sanskrit etc. Technically this is not correct. Please. Sanskrit is dead. If we consider, Panini's time (6th/7th century BC, Panini was from Afghanistan-Kandahar) to be the time of Sanskrit the way we see it today, Assamese language is much older than that. Historically it is my argument that the Assamese XO sound was there in Assamese since 3000 BC when Narakaxur (contemporary to Rama and Sita) established the firs
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
Ram Congratulations for being able to findout such an authorative dissertation on the modern languages of India. I hope it has now removed some of the misconceptions that netters have so long entertained regarding the origin of the Assamese or other Indian languages. Bhuban ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
Rajen: Do keep up the mission you have undertaken. As if we have solved all our problems, the Assam Government now has created an additionalfracas that would further bring in division amongst the people here. You ust relentlessly pursue your views and may be ask a direct question to CP Saikia as to what is his arguments against your views? Regards. How are wedding preps going? Love from all of us. Shantikam From: Rajen Barua [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Ram Sarangapani [EMAIL PROTECTED]CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], assam@assamnet.orgSubject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:46:06 -0600 Ram: Thanks for the site. It is great. Regarding Assamese and other languages coming from Sanskrit, please read the history of the Indian languages carefully. ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
Shantikam: Thanks for your support. As you know dealing with anybody in OXX is like walking in thin ice. So I am being careful. Now it is being revealed that the original problem was started by OXX in 1925 (or so) when OXX was established. They started to write Asom Sahitya Sabha. That they spelled Asom instead of Oxom, may be excusable at that time which was incidentally before the publication of Dr Banikanta Kakoti's Doctorate thesis which for the first time recognized the Assamese X sound officially. However, the Hobo Diok Assamese never took the time during the last 70 years to change the ASS to OXX. Rest is history. Ignorance of the basic knowledge has among our so called scholars has covering things up. Anyhow now that the cat is out of the bag, common Assamese public is knowing the basic facts regarding our language for the first time. Amar Oxom edited by Dr Nagen Saikia is starting a new debate on the issue. Dr Saikiahas promised me to publish my article in Assamese in Amar Oxom. Assam tribune has given full support on the issue and they have published my article as an Editorial. Anyhow I am learning new things regarding the languageeveryday. I did some research and found out that Tai Ahom Xahitya Xobha was right when they claimed that the name Assam or Asam was there even before the British. This is in fact true. The British did not coin the word Assam except the fact they added an extra S to the word Asam.The Moguls used that pronunciation ASAM in Farsi and Urdu instead of OSOM. So when Aurengjeb (say) used to talk to Mirjumla, he would say, "Asam me jaw". This I was told is evident from the Xondhi written between Mirjumla and Ahom kings in Farsi. What actually happens, in Hindi and Urdu, they pronounce the Assamese O-kar sound as U (as in Up). (This is very basic but is very important for the kharkhwas to know).O-kar in Hindi, Urdu and Sanskrit (I believe in Bengali too) is pronounced as U as in Up. In English they used the letter A or U sometime for the O-kar. (The British used the spellings like Pundit, Suttee, Punjab, writing U for Hindi O-kar because of this. They pronounce the O-kar as U as in Up). Same are the pronunciation of the words like Ajanta, Anjana etc. We say Ojonta, they (Hindiwalas) say Ujanta. We kharkhwas never took the time to listen to the Hindiwalas. Anyhow our OSOM becomes ASAM in their speech. So in Farsi they had to write ASAM. So the very basis of CP Saikiathat this is a colonial word is wrong.ASAM is an Indian word. Now we all should agree that ASOM is a bhusing-pohu spelling. That is neither OSOM nor ASAM. At present I am trying to collect the original Farsi Xondhis. Once I have these, I am planning to write a detail report on Assamese phonetics. I received a report today that Tarun Gogoi in the meantime has withdrawn his proposal seeing the controversy. But I have not seen any news item yet. Please let us know if you see anything. Thanks Rajen - Original Message - From: Shantikam Hazarika To: Alpana B. Sarangapani Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; assam@assamnet.org ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 10:28 PM Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Rajen: Do keep up the mission you have undertaken. As if we have solved all our problems, the Assam Government now has created an additionalfracas that would further bring in division amongst the people here. You ust relentlessly pursue your views and may be ask a direct question to CP Saikia as to what is his arguments against your views? Regards. How are wedding preps going? Love from all of us. Shantikam From: "Rajen Barua" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "Ram Sarangapani" [EMAIL PROTECTED]CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], assam@assamnet.orgSubject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:46:06 -0600 Ram: Thanks for the site. It is great. Regarding Assamese and other languages coming from Sanskrit, please read the history of the Indian languages carefully. ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
Title: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Good note Rajen. Hope they publish it. c At 8:33 AM -0600 3/7/06, Rajen Barua wrote: Letters to the editor THE STATESMAN, KOLKATA 4 March 2006 Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Sir, I am writing this letter with reference to a decision by the Assam government to change the name of the state to Asom. This is a wrong decision for certain reasons. Asom is a Sanskritised spelling and not an Assamese spelling. The proper Assamese spelling in the Roman script should be Oxom. The Assamese gutteral kh sound is a well-recognised velar fricative, and is also found among other languages including Greek and Russian. The International Phonetic Association has designated the Greek letter, X, for this Assamese sound. This sound is not represented by the letter, S, as written in the word Asom. As such it is X and not S that should be used. Again, the first letter should be O and not A. The letter A is used in Sanskrit and Hindi where they have two As. In Assamese we have only one A. The correct vowel for the Assamese pronunciation should be O. The Assam government by taking a decision to use the Sanskritised form of spelling Asom instead of Oxom is trying to kill the proper Assamese ethnic sound XO. This will be a great letdown for the entire Assamese people, and we request the Assam government not to meddle with the Assamese language. If it has to change the name, it should adopt the correct spelling, i.e. Oxom. Yours, etc., Rajen Barua, Katy (Texas), USA, 4 March. ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
Title: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Thanks. The Statesman, Kolkatahasalready published it. A friendfrom Kolkata sent it to me. We will have to keep on fighting. "Amar Oxom" Editor Dr Nagen Saikia, Ex Oxom Xahityo Xobha President, is preparing to publish my article in Assamese and contunue the debate. I think this is an issue for Assamese lifeline. Many have not seen it as such yet. Let us see. Thanks for your support. Rajen - Original Message - From: Chan Mahanta To: Rajen Barua ; assam@assamnet.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Good note Rajen. Hope they publish it. c At 8:33 AM -0600 3/7/06, Rajen Barua wrote: Letters to the editor THE STATESMAN, KOLKATA 4 March 2006 Asom or Oxom, phonetically speakingSir, I am writing this letter with reference to a decision by the Assam government to change the name of the state to Asom. This is a wrong decision for certain reasons. Asom is a Sanskritised spelling and not an Assamese spelling. The proper Assamese spelling in the Roman script should be Oxom. The Assamese gutteral kh sound is a well-recognised velar fricative, and is also found among other languages including Greek and Russian. The International Phonetic Association has designated the Greek letter, X, for this Assamese sound. This sound is not represented by the letter, S, as written in the word Asom. As such it is X and not S that should be used. Again, the first letter should be O and not A.The letter A is used in Sanskrit and Hindi where they have two As. In Assamese we have only one A. The correct vowel for the Assamese pronunciation should be O. The Assam government by taking a decision to use the Sanskritised form of spelling Asom instead of Oxom is trying to kill the proper Assamese ethnic sound XO. This will be a great letdown for the entire Assamese people, and we request the Assam government not to meddle with the Assamese language. If it has to change the name, it should adopt the correct spelling, i.e. Oxom. Yours, etc., Rajen Barua,Katy (Texas), USA, 4 March. ___assam mailing listassam@assamnet.orghttp://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
Hi Barua, I am glad the Statesman publised your article. It is quite informative and one can lear a lot. But reading the papers and letters to the editor, one gets the inpression, ASOM is here to stay and the GOA is backing it up. While browsing, I did come across several references to Assamese as derivative of Sanskrit (you of course do not agree with this). Some of the sources refered to Bani Kanta Kakati, Hemkox etc. I can send you some of these if I come across them. I don't know how authentic they are. BTW: Here is a link that may interest you and others regarding the voiceless velar fricative The link is very interesting and refers to Assamese also. Interestingly, it seems the English language sometimes also uses the voiceless velar fricative. Here is the link. http://www.answers.com/topic/voiceless-velar-fricative Hope it is useful to you. --Ram On 3/7/06, Rajen Barua [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks. The Statesman, Kolkatahasalready published it. A friendfrom Kolkata sent it to me. We will have to keep on fighting. Amar Oxom Editor Dr Nagen Saikia, Ex Oxom Xahityo Xobha President, is preparing to publish my article in Assamese and contunue the debate. I think this is an issue for Assamese lifeline. Many have not seen it as such yet. Let us see. Thanks for your support. Rajen - Original Message - From: Chan Mahanta To: Rajen Barua ; assam@assamnet.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Good note Rajen. Hope they publish it. c At 8:33 AM -0600 3/7/06, Rajen Barua wrote: Letters to the editor THE STATESMAN, KOLKATA 4 March 2006 Asom or Oxom, phonetically speakingSir, — I am writing this letter with reference to a decision by the Assam government to change the name of the state to Asom. This is a wrong decision for certain reasons. Asom is a Sanskritised spelling and not an Assamese spelling. The proper Assamese spelling in the Roman script should be Oxom. The Assamese gutteral kh sound is a well-recognised velar fricative, and is also found among other languages including Greek and Russian. The International Phonetic Association has designated the Greek letter, 'X', for this Assamese sound. This sound is not represented by the letter, 'S', as written in the word Asom. As such it is 'X' and not 'S' that should be used. Again, the first letter should be 'O' and not 'A'. The letter 'A' is used in Sanskrit and Hindi where they have two 'A's. In Assamese we have only one 'A'. The correct vowel for the Assamese pronunciation should be 'O'. The Assam government by taking a decision to use the Sanskritised form of spelling — Asom instead of Oxom — is trying to kill the proper Assamese ethnic sound 'XO'. This will be a great letdown for the entire Assamese people, and we request the Assam government not to meddle with the Assamese language. If it has to change the name, it should adopt the correct spelling, i.e. Oxom.— Yours, etc., Rajen Barua,Katy (Texas), USA, 4 March. ___assam mailing list assam@assamnet.orghttp://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org ___assam mailing listassam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking
Ram: Thanks for the site. It is great. Regarding Assamese and other languages coming from Sanskrit, please read the history of the Indian languages carefully. It is tricky. Sanskrit, by definition, is a dead language, which means it ended in itself. As such none of the Indian regionallanguages are derived from Sanskrit. None. Assamese, Bengali, Oriya and all the Indo-Aryan languages in India are derived from different Pakrit languages like Magadhi, Sauraseni, etc. Now these Pakrit languages are derived from some Vedic and pre Vedic languages. Sanskrit itself was one language which was derived from some pre Vedic language. However, Panini standardized Sanskrit and made many changes phonetically (we lost X sound) and grammatically. However due to Panini's strict rules, Sanskrit remained as a fixed written language, fixed in time forever. That is why it is called a dead language. From above, it should be very clear that Sanskrit cannot be the mother language on any of the Indo Aryan languages: Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Marthi etc. Sanskrit can be strictly speaking a cousin language. But if a dead language can have power, it is Sanskrit which have been influencing the Indians greatly. Many educated Indians (I mean scholars) make the mistake again and again. How many times you will hear Indians stating that all Indian languages are derived from Sanskrit etc. Technically this is not correct. Please. Sanskrit is dead. If we consider, Panini's time (6th/7th century BC, Panini was from Afghanistan-Kandahar) to be the time of Sanskrit the way we see it today, Assamese language is much older than that. Historically it is my argument that the Assamese XO sound was there in Assamese since 3000 BC when Narakaxur (contemporary to Rama and Sita) established the first Aryan-Axur kingdom in Pragjyotishpur. (Otherwise historically it cannot get intoAssamese later). If you read Kaliram Medhi, Dimbeswar Neog and others, you will find that Assamese language has still retained, besides the XO sound many characterisc of old Indo-European language like Persian etc which were lost in Sanskrit and others.With all these data, one can in fact make a convincing argument that Assamese is older than Sanskrit, a point made by Medhi and Neog. Assamese still has many pre Vedic words which were lost in Sanskrit. (When you read Banikanta Kakaoty, please read with caution. Being a student of Dr Suniti Kumar Chatterjee, he did not contradict anything of his master. Compared to him, I think Neog, Medhi and Bharali are much more original Assamese scholars.) The bottom line is, even Bani Kanta Kanoty has never stated that Assamese originated from Sanskrit. If he did, read his wording again, because he cannot mean that. But if you find any reference, I would like to see, and would appreciate if you would forward these. As you can see, in Assam there is hardly any scholars left today. Have you seen any leadership role being played by Oxom Xahityo Xobha? The one genuine scholar left in Assam, Dr Golok Ch Goswami is probably so frustrated that he decided not to speak in such mundane latters. But what I am saying, he supports me specially regarding the X sound and the use of W for W-kar in Roman script. Another point is that Assamese has only one O and one Ah. Hindi and Sanskrit have A=Horso Ah, then AA=Dirgho Ah. So when they write A, the sound is always short Ah like U=Up. Assamese say Onil, in Hindi they say Anil with Ah. All the Assamese names like Anjana, Ajanta, Archana, Anil etc, in Assamese we pronounce with O. But the same words are pronounced with Ah by the mainland Indians in Hindi, Sanskrit. That is why when we write Asom, an Assamese might pronounce Osom, but Hindi and Sanskrit will pronounceUsom. See the spelling of the word Dalda in Hindi. It is written as Dolda but pronounced as Dalda. All these are happening because (litikai) Assamese aretrying to follow the Hindi, Sanskrit group blindly without real that Assamese language is a much more simpler language like Pail, and that it has its separate originality and beauty. We need to retain the lost originality of the Assamese language. We need to stand up and say, we no longer follow you mainland India blindly. We have our originality which we need to retain. Anyhow these areis my points. I hope I am not confusing you. Rajen Barua. - Original Message - From: Ram Sarangapani To: Rajen Barua Cc: assam@assamnet.org ; Chan Mahanta ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Assam] Asom or Oxom, phonetically speaking Hi Barua, I am glad the Statesman publised your article. It is quite informative and one can lear a lot. But reading the papers and letters to the editor, one gets the inpression, ASOM is here to stay and the GOA is backing it up. While browsing, I did come across several references
