Re: [Assam] caste system
--- Rajib Das [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some responses to the points you have made: 1. As per my readings, earlier it used to be called just Dharma (not Varnashrama Dharma) and Dharma became Sanatana Dharma later when other religions came about on Indian soil which are also essentially Dharmic in origin. I haven't really found a reference to the whole of Hinduism being represented as Varnashrama Dharma anywhere. dharma is a general term that roughly means duty (set of prescribed conduct leading to release from life-death). it does not signify any particular duty, so it does not signify any particular religion. it has been used by religions other than hinduism (eg buddhism). If it implied hinduism in particular, buddhism would not have used it. even if we ignored the other religions, dharma on its own does not specify the hindu religion. this is because there are 4 different sets of dharmas for the 4 different varnas. to specify the religion, you need to specify the system that binds these different dharmas together. which is varnashrama. sanatana means eternal. so you are right, it was another appelation used to emphasize the point that Hinduism had no beginning, unlike say Jainism and Buddhism. It was the original religion. 2. No doubt - Manusmriti is where the Varnas are codified into an unjust social order. But Manusmriti came much much later and was not a part of the original scriptures - those that ONLY some consider as infallible in Hinduism. Manusmriti can be thrown away very easily. And that is where my questions were regarding what exactly did you find in the original scriptures (the Rig Veda if you may) regarding a hereditary system of Varna. And how much does it impact the core essence of Hinduism. according to accepted dates, the manusrimiti is closer to the vedas in time than it is to the present. nevertheless, you will not find a pure original state between the vedic and the manu times. your originalist attempt will therefore give you only half a desired result and your choices will reflect your present needs, not original edicts from the past. i am actually not surprised that you want to just make the varna system non-hereditary, and not remove the varna system entirely. 3. The fight for Dalits and Tribals is one of the many elements of the interest in throwing Varna out. There are others such as OBCs, SCs and in certain regions even Brahmins that clamor for change. By itself it is a noble enough cause for which there would be transformation. In fact, the VHP's highly successful strategy in the tribal belt of Gujarat is about 2/3 things: Social Welfare, a non-Varna system and the restoration of the village deities. Is there anything wrong with the whole idea? this is primarily a political issue. a few decades ago, there were anti-dalit riots in gujarat which basically led to the KHAM electoral alliance and decades of congress rule. what the vhp was able to do was turn some in the KHAM against the others. the muslims had protected the dalits from the rioters then, but in the post-godhra riots, the dalits and the adivasis turned against the muslims. also, it turned the fortune of the bjp party, which was reeling after the cooperative bank scams. so are you asking whether the gujarat experiment, which climaxed with the post-godhra riots, is wrong? I am not convinced with what has been presented that the Varna system as defined in the original scriptures (and NOT Manusmriti) is the most defining aspect of Hinduism. I am not convinced also that if the Varna system is thrown out or modified it will result in contradictions in the essence of Hinduism coming to the fore. My questions really was about addressing this point - not about whether in my personal capacity I am a Hindu or not. its fine if you aren't convinced. whatever makes you happy :) xourov __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Re: [Assam] caste system
Souravda, Some responses to the points you have made: 1. As per my readings, earlier it used to be called just Dharma (not Varnashrama Dharma) and Dharma became Sanatana Dharma later when other religions came about on Indian soil which are also essentially Dharmic in origin. I haven't really found a reference to the whole of Hinduism being represented as Varnashrama Dharma anywhere. 2. No doubt - Manusmriti is where the Varnas are codified into an unjust social order. But Manusmriti came much much later and was not a part of the original scriptures - those that ONLY some consider as infallible in Hinduism. Manusmriti can be thrown away very easily. And that is where my questions were regarding what exactly did you find in the original scriptures (the Rig Veda if you may) regarding a hereditary system of Varna. And how much does it impact the core essence of Hinduism. 3. The fight for Dalits and Tribals is one of the many elements of the interest in throwing Varna out. There are others such as OBCs, SCs and in certain regions even Brahmins that clamor for change. By itself it is a noble enough cause for which there would be transformation. In fact, the VHP's highly successful strategy in the tribal belt of Gujarat is about 2/3 things: Social Welfare, a non-Varna system and the restoration of the village deities. Is there anything wrong with the whole idea? I am not convinced with what has been presented that the Varna system as defined in the original scriptures (and NOT Manusmriti) is the most defining aspect of Hinduism. I am not convinced also that if the Varna system is thrown out or modified it will result in contradictions in the essence of Hinduism coming to the fore. My questions really was about addressing this point - not about whether in my personal capacity I am a Hindu or not. --- xourov pathok [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Rajib Das [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here are a few questions. Hopefully you guys can answer: many of the questions you ask can be encapsulated into why am i a hindu? i leave those questions alone, because those are personal questions which every man has to answer for himself. i am merely adding my comments to only the varna related parts. here i would like to point out that a critical (that is objective, not antagonistic) look at religions is not equivalent to challenging either their value systems or questioning anyone's personal religious choices. 1. Is Varnashrama Dharma really the original name of Hinduism or is it Sanatana Dharma? sanatana dharma is a later concept that incorporates many other aspects of hinduism, including that of varnashram dharma. sanatana dharma never became a popular name for the religion. though it is an older name, i would guess that it became more widely used in the 19th century as a result of the many hindu reformist movements in that period. 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas? varnashram dharma sets down the duties for the 4 castes with, of course, some spiritual and philosophical justifications. the gita is one example but the best exposition is manusmriti. http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm the dalits do not fall anywhere in the varna system. whereas many ethnic groups were accepted into the varna system, the dalits were very strongly kept away. even though the buddha (whose religion posed the greatest threat to hinduism at one time) was later inducted into the pantheon of vishnu avatars, the dalits were vehemently rejected. the dalits today are as large as the muslim population in india and are an important component in the hindutva politics. the animosity against the christians is essentially rooted in the battle over the dalits and the tribals. this explains the new interest in dumping the varna system from hinduism. 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right. But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and action, would it change anything in the way we percieve things about Hinduism? it is very likely that the varna system has always been hereditary, because the main function of the system was to put an order in the myriad jatis that were entering it. manusmriti (dated to 1st-2nd century bc) tried to codify this order and give it a rigidity. the gita, which came earlier, already prescribed an evolved concept of the varna system as a answer to some ills. the varna system has become rigid, but it is not absolute. but what must be borne in mind is that it operates not on individuals but on jatis. it is probably easier to find a community (as opposed to
Re: [Assam] caste system
--- Rajib Das [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here are a few questions. Hopefully you guys can answer: many of the questions you ask can be encapsulated into why am i a hindu? i leave those questions alone, because those are personal questions which every man has to answer for himself. i am merely adding my comments to only the varna related parts. here i would like to point out that a critical (that is objective, not antagonistic) look at religions is not equivalent to challenging either their value systems or questioning anyone's personal religious choices. 1. Is Varnashrama Dharma really the original name of Hinduism or is it Sanatana Dharma? sanatana dharma is a later concept that incorporates many other aspects of hinduism, including that of varnashram dharma. sanatana dharma never became a popular name for the religion. though it is an older name, i would guess that it became more widely used in the 19th century as a result of the many hindu reformist movements in that period. 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas? varnashram dharma sets down the duties for the 4 castes with, of course, some spiritual and philosophical justifications. the gita is one example but the best exposition is manusmriti. http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm the dalits do not fall anywhere in the varna system. whereas many ethnic groups were accepted into the varna system, the dalits were very strongly kept away. even though the buddha (whose religion posed the greatest threat to hinduism at one time) was later inducted into the pantheon of vishnu avatars, the dalits were vehemently rejected. the dalits today are as large as the muslim population in india and are an important component in the hindutva politics. the animosity against the christians is essentially rooted in the battle over the dalits and the tribals. this explains the new interest in dumping the varna system from hinduism. 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right. But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and action, would it change anything in the way we percieve things about Hinduism? it is very likely that the varna system has always been hereditary, because the main function of the system was to put an order in the myriad jatis that were entering it. manusmriti (dated to 1st-2nd century bc) tried to codify this order and give it a rigidity. the gita, which came earlier, already prescribed an evolved concept of the varna system as a answer to some ills. the varna system has become rigid, but it is not absolute. but what must be borne in mind is that it operates not on individuals but on jatis. it is probably easier to find a community (as opposed to an individual) changing varna. in more recent times when shivaji wanted to declare himself a king, the local brahmins refused to anoint him because of his lowly origins. shivaji then imported a brahman from elsewhere who drew up an impressive lineage and anointed him. so along with shivaji, his community as well as his ancestors became kshatriyas. it is possible to suspect that in such cases, if the community does not display the characteristics of the new varna over time it might relapse into the old varna. 3. Does Hinduism (or if I may use the word Sanatana Dharma) specify clearly to the infallibility of the Vedas themselves in their entirety? Or is a Hindu allowed to reject certain tenets? 4. Does Hinduism (and do Hindus) leave the interpretation of the Vedas (or their religion itself) to be changed over time or by different scholars? 5. Is Varna the central tenet of Hinduism - more specifically, is it specified anywhere in the Vedas that a Hindu MUST believe in Varna? Even more specifically, exactly how many shlokas (or what percentage) of the Rig Veda mention Varna? 6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right from the time of when the transition of leadership was to happen from the prophet to his disciples and since it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of kufrs, should it be called Unsalaam or something and should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety? 7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery, keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety? the case here is different. the claim is that the varna system *is* the most defining aspect of hinduism (sanatana dharma if you will). it defines who is a hindu and who is not. you can get away with being an athiest (a charvaka) as long as you belonged to the varna system. 8.
Re: [Assam] caste system - evil Hinduism??
I would say that all these questions are meaningless unless you wish to find a solution -- within Hinduism -- to remove casteism. Why would one wish to dwell on something which has turned out to be evil -- unless one wants to remove that. Second, if the contention is that since caste system as practiced is evil -- then Hinduism itself must be evil .Those who think that Hinduism is inherently evil --please do not hesitate to say it!!! Come forward we will certainly discuss it. Do not hide behind evil caste system to take pot shots had Hindu faith.Umeshxourov pathok [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Rajib Das <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Here are a few questions. Hopefully you guys can answer:many of the questions you ask can be encapsulated into"why am i a hindu?" i leave those questions alone,because those are personal questions which every manhas to answer for himself. i am merely adding mycomments to only the varna related parts. here i would like to point out that a critical (thatis objective, not antagonistic) look at religions isnot equivalent to challenging either their valuesystems or questioning anyone's personal religiouschoices. 1. Is Varnashrama Dharma really the original name of Hinduism or is it Sanatana Dharma? sanatana dharma is a later concept that incorporatesmany other aspects of hinduism, including that ofvarnashram dharma."sanatana dharma" never became a popular name for thereligion. though it is an older name, i would guessthat it became more widely used in the 19th century asa result of the many hindu reformist movements in thatperiod. 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas?varnashram dharma sets down the duties for the 4castes with, of course, some spiritual andphilosophical justifications. the gita is one examplebut the best exposition is manusmriti.http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htmthe dalits do not fall anywhere in the varna system. whereas many ethnic groups were accepted into thevarna system, the dalits were very strongly kept away.even though the buddha (whose religion posed thegreatest threat to hinduism at one time) was laterinducted into the pantheon of vishnu avatars, thedalits were vehemently rejected. the dalits today are as large as the muslim populationin india and are an important component in thehindutva politics. the animosity against thechristians is essentially rooted in the battle overthe dalits and the tribals. this explains the newinterest in dumping the varna system from hinduism. 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right. But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and action, would it change anything in the way we percieve things about Hinduism?it is very likely that the varna system has alwaysbeen hereditary, because the main function of thesystem was to put an order in the myriad jatis thatwere entering it. manusmriti (dated to 1st-2ndcentury bc) tried to codify this order and give it arigidity. the gita, which came earlier, alreadyprescribed an evolved concept of the varna system as aanswer to some ills.the varna system has become rigid, but it is notabsolute. but what must be borne in mind is that itoperates not on individuals but on jatis. it isprobably easier to find a community (as opposed to anindividual) changing varna. in more recent times whenshivaji wanted to declare himself a king, the localbrahmins refused to anoint him because of his "lowlyorigins". shivaji then imported a brahman fromelsewhere who drew up an impressive lineage andanointed him. so along with shivaji, his community aswell as his ancestors became kshatriyas. it ispossible to suspect that in such cases, if thecommunity does not display the characteristics of thenew varna over time it might relapse into the oldvarna. 3. Does Hinduism (or if I may use the word Sanatana Dharma) specify clearly to the infallibility of the Vedas themselves in their entirety? Or is a Hindu allowed to reject certain tenets? 4. Does Hinduism (and do Hindus) leave the interpretation of the Vedas (or their religion itself) to be changed over time or by different scholars? 5. Is Varna the central tenet of Hinduism - more specifically, is it specified anywhere in the Vedas that a Hindu MUST believe in Varna? Even more specifically, exactly how many shlokas (or what percentage) of the Rig Veda mention Varna? 6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right from the time of when the transition of leadership was to happen from the prophet to his disciples and since it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of kufrs, should it be called "Unsalaam" or something and should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety? 7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery, keep continuing to
Re: [Assam] caste system
Thanks Xourov for another extremely well researched, informative and thoughtful piece. At 11:37 AM -0800 3/26/06, xourov pathok wrote: a short note on the caste system: the varna system, which found its first mention in the rig veda itself, has been the only unbroken tradition of hinduism. gods have come and gone (from indra to rudra to krishna), forms of worship has changed (from yajnas to puja) but the varna system has persisted. there is an oft repeated dictum, that hinduism did not have a name for itself earlier. this is not true. the name of the religion was varnashram dharma. the varna system is the most defining aspect of hinduism. another dictum is that it divides. this also is untrue. in fact the varna system makes it possible for a jati to place itself in a readymade order. this is important because there is no personal conversion system in hinduism. instead entire jatis are converted (by placing them in the varna system), like the scythians and the koches were made hindus by placing them in the kshatriya varna. this is important. because it lets, say, a sarma or a barua from assam relate in a some meaningful way with a aiyar or an iyengar from tamil nadu. since the varna system is the most defining aspect of hinduism, how can you remove or reform it out of the religion? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Re: [Assam] caste system
The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny the existence of all these aspects (as many on this net do) and then to march forward with a very selective view of Hinduism that is in consonance with modern society and liberal values. The trouble with this approach is that in all honesty, you cannot be very sure of what it is you are clutching on to therefore, in the long run, are bound to run into certain contradictions - perhaps as your children question you *** Well said Santanu. But I am not sure the inquisitive children are enough of a deterrence to that attempt at living in a make-believe world. I have seen 'children' of those who would choose to live in a delusion, raised, indoctrinated and molded in the image of their parents :-), who grow up perfectly willing to perpetuate the myths and the delusions. At 9:57 PM -0600 3/26/06, Roy, Santanu wrote: Saurav, Thanks for your knowledgeable note. Two observations: 1. There are probably quite a few historical instances where castes have been fostered within a non-Aryan jati or community that has come into contact with mainstream Hinduism at a late stage. Indeed, the process by which an outside jati enters into mainstream Hindu society must logically consist of at least two social processes. First, the way the existing mainstream society - the upper castes - in particular, view the community in question - an exogenous aspect. Second, the way the jati views itself and reshapes redefines its own social stratification using the adopted language and mirrors of mainstream Hindu society -an endogenous aspect. Indeed, these two processes need not be congruent. The relics of these processes are found in several low caste untouchable communities that have their own Brahmins. To the mainstream outsider, they are all untouchable, but to the insider there is a caste system within - a microcosm of the society that lies above them. A similar stru! cture is also observed with respect to many tribes prior to the importing of Brahmins from mainstream society. 2. The varna system, like many other aspects of Hindu society, is in fundamental contradiction with modern society. The question in my mind is not whether Hinduism can be reformed. The real question is how will Hindus resolve these contradictions between what they ought to hold sacred and the needs of actual material life in today's society. One option is to stand by the varna system and all other traditional mores, to oppose liberal western values and in effect, do a fundamentalist jig. The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny the existence of all these aspects (as many on this net do) and then to march forward with a very selective view of Hinduism that is in consonance with modern society and liberal values. The trouble with this approach is that in all honesty, you cannot be very sure of what it is you are clutching on to therefore, in the long run, are bound to run into certain contradictions - perhaps as your children question you A third option would be to abandon the grand tradition altogether and, in effect, convert to religious orders that have their own philosphical systems that, even though historically rooted in the grand narrative, actually offer a distinct axiomatic system (Buddhism and Jainism were among the many such early orders, as were some of the Vaishnava orders). The third option is essentially fractious and inimical to the cause of a grand Hindu identity. But it may well be the most honest and logical way out for those who seek a religion. Santanu-da. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of xourov pathok Sent: Mon 3/27/2006 4:37 AM To: assam@assamnet.org Subject: [Assam] caste system a short note on the caste system: the varna system, which found its first mention in the rig veda itself, has been the only unbroken tradition of hinduism. gods have come and gone (from indra to rudra to krishna), forms of worship has changed (from yajnas to puja) but the varna system has persisted. there is an oft repeated dictum, that hinduism did not have a name for itself earlier. this is not true. the name of the religion was varnashram dharma. the varna system is the most defining aspect of hinduism. another dictum is that it divides. this also is untrue. in fact the varna system makes it possible for a jati to place itself in a readymade order. this is important because there is no personal conversion system in hinduism. instead entire jatis are converted (by placing them in the varna system), like the scythians and the koches were made hindus by placing them in the kshatriya varna. this is important. because it lets, say, a sarma or a barua from assam relate in a some meaningful way with a aiyar or an iyengar from tamil nadu. since the varna system is the most defining aspect of hinduism, how can you remove or reform it out of the religion?
Re: [Assam] caste system
Here are a few questions. Hopefully you guys can answer: 1. Is Varnashrama Dharma really the original name of Hinduism or is it Sanatana Dharma? 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas? 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right. But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and action, would it change anything in the way we percieve things about Hinduism? 3. Does Hinduism (or if I may use the word Sanatana Dharma) specify clearly to the infallibility of the Vedas themselves in their entirety? Or is a Hindu allowed to reject certain tenets? 4. Does Hinduism (and do Hindus) leave the interpretation of the Vedas (or their religion itself) to be changed over time or by different scholars? 5. Is Varna the central tenet of Hinduism - more specifically, is it specified anywhere in the Vedas that a Hindu MUST believe in Varna? Even more specifically, exactly how many shlokas (or what percentage) of the Rig Veda mention Varna? 6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right from the time of when the transition of leadership was to happen from the prophet to his disciples and since it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of kufrs, should it be called Unsalaam or something and should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety? 7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery, keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety? 8. Should Atheism find its glory in every Godless communist despot (including Pol Pot) that lead the most wanton killings in modern times and the rationale they gave to those killings? Finally the last 2 questions: 9. Why is the option of plainly denying the existence of all these aspects the only other way? Did any one of us really grow up with our parents teaching us the gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really look forward to the excitement of Durga Puja and other religious/social events? Has anyone denied my right to a Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman? More so, why would not a re-interpretation of the meaning of Varna (I assume no one has problems with Ashrama) be in the order of things? Or even the rejection of it? After all there were enough reformers within the Hindu fold (and even Buddha wasn't exactly outside the Hindu fold in his life, was he?) who had enough following through the times to change things. 10. And why should we forget what our forefathers did to our religion? Why should our kids not learn that there was for the longest time in history (and still is) such gross injustice within our religious and social order that things needed to change? And why would they not accept it as a part of the bad they inherit in as much as all the good they could? If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslims would have an even tougher time defending their religions to their children, wouldn't they? --- Chan Mahanta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny the existence of all these aspects (as many on this net do) and then to march forward with a very selective view of Hinduism that is in consonance with modern society and liberal values. The trouble with this approach is that in all honesty, you cannot be very sure of what it is you are clutching on to therefore, in the long run, are bound to run into certain contradictions - perhaps as your children question you *** Well said Santanu. But I am not sure the inquisitive children are enough of a deterrence to that attempt at living in a make-believe world. I have seen 'children' of those who would choose to live in a delusion, raised, indoctrinated and molded in the image of their parents :-), who grow up perfectly willing to perpetuate the myths and the delusions. At 9:57 PM -0600 3/26/06, Roy, Santanu wrote: Saurav, Thanks for your knowledgeable note. Two observations: 1. There are probably quite a few historical instances where castes have been fostered within a non-Aryan jati or community that has come into contact with mainstream Hinduism at a late stage. Indeed, the process by which an outside jati enters into mainstream Hindu society must logically consist of at least two social processes. First, the way the existing mainstream society - the upper castes - in particular, view the community in question - an exogenous aspect. Second, the way the jati views itself and reshapes redefines its own social stratification using the adopted language and mirrors of mainstream Hindu society -an endogenous
Re: [Assam] caste system
Really good questions Rajib. I of course don't have answers for you. But specially this: If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslimswould have an even tougher time defending theirreligions to their children, wouldn't they? But will await others who may have. --Ram da On 3/27/06, Rajib Das [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here are a few questions. Hopefully you guys cananswer:1. Is Varnashrama Dharma really the original name of Hinduism or is it Sanatana Dharma?2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to andonly to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does itposit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas?2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right. But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnasare defined by birth? Or did it come much later withthe likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not tobe defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and action, would it change anything in the way wepercieve things about Hinduism?3. Does Hinduism (or if I may use the word SanatanaDharma) specify clearly to the infallibility of theVedas themselves in their entirety? Or is a Hindu allowed to reject certain tenets?4. Does Hinduism (and do Hindus) leave theinterpretation of the Vedas (or their religion itself)to be changed over time or by different scholars?5. Is Varna the central tenet of Hinduism - more specifically, is it specified anywhere in the Vedasthat a Hindu MUST believe in Varna? Even morespecifically, exactly how many shlokas (or whatpercentage) of the Rig Veda mention Varna?6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right from the time of when the transition of leadership wasto happen from the prophet to his disciples and sinceit has enough mention in the Koran of killing ofkufrs, should it be called Unsalaam or something and should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety?7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery,keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all itwas ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible andtherefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety?8. Should Atheism find its glory in every Godlesscommunist despot (including Pol Pot) that lead themost wanton killings in modern times and the rationale they gave to those killings?Finally the last 2 questions:9. Why is the option of plainly denying the existenceof all these aspects the only other way? Did any oneof us really grow up with our parents teaching us the gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really lookforward to the excitement of Durga Puja and otherreligious/social events? Has anyone denied my right toa Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman? More so, why would not a re-interpretation of themeaning of Varna (I assume no one has problems withAshrama) be in the order of things? Or even therejection of it?After all there were enough reformers within the Hindu fold (and even Buddha wasn't exactly outside the Hindufold in his life, was he?) who had enough followingthrough the times to change things.10. And why should we forget what our forefathers didto our religion? Why should our kids not learn that there was for the longest time in history (and stillis) such gross injustice within our religious andsocial order that things needed to change? And whywould they not accept it as a part of the bad they inherit in as much as all the good they could?If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslimswould have an even tougher time defending theirreligions to their children, wouldn't they? --- Chan Mahanta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny the existence of all these aspects (as many on this net do) and then to march forward with a very selective view of Hinduism that is in consonance with modern society and liberal values. The trouble with this approach is that in all honesty, you cannot be very sure of what it is you are clutching on to therefore, in the long run, are bound to run into certain contradictions - perhaps as your children question you *** Well said Santanu. But I am not sure the inquisitive children are enoughof a deterrence to that attempt at living in a make-believe world. I have seen 'children' of those who would choose to live in a delusion, raised, indoctrinated and molded in the image of their parents :-), who grow up perfectly willingto perpetuate the myths and the delusions. At 9:57 PM -0600 3/26/06, Roy, Santanu wrote: Saurav, Thanks for your knowledgeable note. Two observations: 1. There are probably quite a few historical instances where castes have been fostered within a non-Aryan jati or community that has come into contact with mainstream Hinduism at a late stage. Indeed, the process by which an outside jati enters into mainstream Hindu society must logically consist of at least two social processes. First, the way the existing mainstream society - the upper castes - in particular, view the community in question - an exogenous aspect. Second, the way the
Re: [Assam] caste system
Dear Rajib: I cannot answer all of your questions. I can see that some of them are rhetorical. There are others I really don't know the answers to.But I can try to put some kind of response for a few. 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas? SR: As I understand it, the 4 castes are inextricably tied to the reward and punishment structure posited by karma and rebirth. If you do very well, you will be reborn as a higher caste. If you do very badly, you may become a shudra or even worse, born as an animal. In each life, you pay or reap the rewards for your earlier lives. Therefore, you should accept your current station in life as a temporary state and abide by the bondages dutifully so that you can rise up in later lives. And if you do this very very well, you may even escape the cycle of birth and death some day. 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right. But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and action, would it change anything in the way we percieve things about Hinduism? SR: Answer to last question: it would. It would screw up the incentive system tied to cycles of life and death as posited in the early scriptures. 6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right from the time of when the transition of leadership was to happen from the prophet to his disciples and since it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of kufrs, should it be called Unsalaam or something and should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety? SR: Islam is very much face to face with the contradictions between some of its core narrative and the values of modern society. This is the basic clash of civilizations we are supposed to be in the midst of. 7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery, keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety? SR: I don't know much about this. The New Testament in effect does reject some of the tenets of the old testament. I am not aware of slavery being a central tenet of Christian faith at any point of time. I thought Christians themselves were enslaved and fed to lions in the first few centuries after Christ. As a philosophical, the Christian doctrine does not - as far as I am aware - propose slavery as a crucial element in the chain of earth and heaven. I'd like to hear more about this. However, there are other aspects of core Christian tenets that may be in contradiction to modern life. Homosexuality, premarital sex, divorce and so on. 9. Why is the option of plainly denying the existence of all these aspects the only other way? Did any one of us really grow up with our parents teaching us the gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really look forward to the excitement of Durga Puja and other religious/social events? Has anyone denied my right to a Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman? SR: The question you ask is whether you are still a Hindu (or why not) even though you may have violated or not believed in all this stuff. Nobody told you that you are not. I think this is not sufficient. More so, why would not a re-interpretation of the meaning of Varna (I assume no one has problems with Ashrama) be in the order of things? Or even the rejection of it? After all there were enough reformers within the Hindu fold (and even Buddha wasn't exactly outside the Hindu fold in his life, was he?) who had enough following through the times to change things. SR: You are probably arguing in effect for a new philosophical system that is more in accordance with your view of life. That is a new religion. You may not call it so. 10. And why should we forget what our forefathers did to our religion? Why should our kids not learn that there was for the longest time in history (and still is) such gross injustice within our religious and social order that things needed to change? And why would they not accept it as a part of the bad they inherit in as much as all the good they could? If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslims would have an even tougher time defending their religions to their children, wouldn't they? SR: They do. It will become harder over time. We too should have a hard time. My point is that some people are in denial. They don't want to have a hard time. I am glad you are not in that set. Take care- Santanu-da. --- Chan Mahanta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny the existence of all these aspects (as many on this net do) and then to march forward with a very selective view of Hinduism that is in consonance with modern society and
Re: [Assam] caste system
Santanuda, Thanks as always for very considered responses. Yes, I admit I couldn't escape putting in rhetoric there in those list of questions. Let me put in further questions to your responses. I will still await responses to my questions from the rest of the group here. Further questions: 1. Are the 4 castes really, inextricably linked to the cycle of karma and rebirth? What I mean is - does it find specific reference in the Rig Veda? Does it specifically say that you have to abide by the bondage of your caste to escape the karmic cycle? Or does it state that you escape the karmic cycle when you follow Dharma and Dharma is not necessarily defined by varna. 2. As per the original scriptures, is there a gradation of incentive systems or really the incentive system has just one incentive - moksha? Or escape from the karmic cycle of births and rebirths. Meaning - it really does not matter you are born into a particular Varna - what matters is that you are born at all. 3. We know Islam (and Islamic society) is finding itself difficult to reshape itself to modern times. Christians in Europe are doing it by, in essence, becoming non-believers. The question for Hindus is, do we have to become non-believers for our religion to conform to modern times? Shouldn't it be easier for us to change our interpretations (or reject them entirely) because we are not followers of THE book? 4. When I argue for certain tenets - such as the hereditary nature of the Varna system (or the Varna system itself) - does it really mean I am arguing for a new religion? I would like not to think so. --- Roy, Santanu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Rajib: I cannot answer all of your questions. I can see that some of them are rhetorical. There are others I really don't know the answers to.But I can try to put some kind of response for a few. 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas? SR: As I understand it, the 4 castes are inextricably tied to the reward and punishment structure posited by karma and rebirth. If you do very well, you will be reborn as a higher caste. If you do very badly, you may become a shudra or even worse, born as an animal. In each life, you pay or reap the rewards for your earlier lives. Therefore, you should accept your current station in life as a temporary state and abide by the bondages dutifully so that you can rise up in later lives. And if you do this very very well, you may even escape the cycle of birth and death some day. 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right. But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and action, would it change anything in the way we percieve things about Hinduism? SR: Answer to last question: it would. It would screw up the incentive system tied to cycles of life and death as posited in the early scriptures. 6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right from the time of when the transition of leadership was to happen from the prophet to his disciples and since it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of kufrs, should it be called Unsalaam or something and should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety? SR: Islam is very much face to face with the contradictions between some of its core narrative and the values of modern society. This is the basic clash of civilizations we are supposed to be in the midst of. 7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery, keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety? SR: I don't know much about this. The New Testament in effect does reject some of the tenets of the old testament. I am not aware of slavery being a central tenet of Christian faith at any point of time. I thought Christians themselves were enslaved and fed to lions in the first few centuries after Christ. As a philosophical, the Christian doctrine does not - as far as I am aware - propose slavery as a crucial element in the chain of earth and heaven. I'd like to hear more about this. However, there are other aspects of core Christian tenets that may be in contradiction to modern life. Homosexuality, premarital sex, divorce and so on. 9. Why is the option of plainly denying the existence of all these aspects the only other way? Did any one of us really grow up with our parents teaching us the gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really look forward to the excitement of Durga Puja and other religious/social events? Has anyone denied my right to a Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman?
Re: [Assam] caste system
Another question: 1. Isn't the concept of Jati distinctly different from that of Varna in its original sense? And that Jatis were codified under the Varna system only as late as the 19th century? I have read somewhere - and this might be wrong - that this codification started under Islamic rulers and was finally firmed up by the Brits. And that this firming up was more about political axes to grind than anything else. And is it possible that Jatis (or clans) moved Varnas depending on what the clan leaders had accomplished very much in their physical lives? --- Roy, Santanu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Rajib: I cannot answer all of your questions. I can see that some of them are rhetorical. There are others I really don't know the answers to.But I can try to put some kind of response for a few. 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas? SR: As I understand it, the 4 castes are inextricably tied to the reward and punishment structure posited by karma and rebirth. If you do very well, you will be reborn as a higher caste. If you do very badly, you may become a shudra or even worse, born as an animal. In each life, you pay or reap the rewards for your earlier lives. Therefore, you should accept your current station in life as a temporary state and abide by the bondages dutifully so that you can rise up in later lives. And if you do this very very well, you may even escape the cycle of birth and death some day. 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right. But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and action, would it change anything in the way we percieve things about Hinduism? SR: Answer to last question: it would. It would screw up the incentive system tied to cycles of life and death as posited in the early scriptures. 6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right from the time of when the transition of leadership was to happen from the prophet to his disciples and since it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of kufrs, should it be called Unsalaam or something and should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety? SR: Islam is very much face to face with the contradictions between some of its core narrative and the values of modern society. This is the basic clash of civilizations we are supposed to be in the midst of. 7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery, keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety? SR: I don't know much about this. The New Testament in effect does reject some of the tenets of the old testament. I am not aware of slavery being a central tenet of Christian faith at any point of time. I thought Christians themselves were enslaved and fed to lions in the first few centuries after Christ. As a philosophical, the Christian doctrine does not - as far as I am aware - propose slavery as a crucial element in the chain of earth and heaven. I'd like to hear more about this. However, there are other aspects of core Christian tenets that may be in contradiction to modern life. Homosexuality, premarital sex, divorce and so on. 9. Why is the option of plainly denying the existence of all these aspects the only other way? Did any one of us really grow up with our parents teaching us the gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really look forward to the excitement of Durga Puja and other religious/social events? Has anyone denied my right to a Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman? SR: The question you ask is whether you are still a Hindu (or why not) even though you may have violated or not believed in all this stuff. Nobody told you that you are not. I think this is not sufficient. More so, why would not a re-interpretation of the meaning of Varna (I assume no one has problems with Ashrama) be in the order of things? Or even the rejection of it? After all there were enough reformers within the Hindu fold (and even Buddha wasn't exactly outside the Hindu fold in his life, was he?) who had enough following through the times to change things. SR: You are probably arguing in effect for a new philosophical system that is more in accordance with your view of life. That is a new religion. You may not call it so. 10. And why should we forget what our forefathers did to our religion? Why should our kids not learn that there was for the longest time in history (and still is) such gross injustice within our religious and social order that things needed to change? And why
Re: [Assam] caste system
The question for Hindus is, do we have to become"non-believers" for our religion to conform to moderntimes? Shouldn't it be easier for us to change ourinterpretations (or reject them entirely) because weare not followers of THE book? My two cents of above: In fact that is what is being done in Hinduism in every age.Hinduism isone religion which had been interpreted and reinterpreted any which way you like so to say That is what the reformers did during the middle ages in India. Shankarchaya came and interpreted the Gita,the VedantaBrahma Slwko and theVedas in such way that Hinduism became strict monism almost like Buddhism and there was not room left for a personal God for Bhaktivad So Ramanujam and others had to reinterpret later and prove Shankarachaya wrong and create new rooms for Bhaktivad. In modern days,Ram Mohan Roy, Vivekananda, Gandhi, Tegore, Radhakrishnanand others have been redefining Hinduism their way.Hinduism has one advantage for re-interpretation because there are so many different scriptures and so very little were actuallywritten in the original texts and in such symbolic language. If one does like one scripture, one can always pull things from other scriptures. If one does like the Vedas, one can cite one of the Upanishads. In other religions, there are not much scope forfresh interpretations, because they have THEBOOKS, and one cannot do much reinterpretation of the same BOOK. In Hinduism, today one may say, 'We don't believe the Manusmriti' and I think no damage would be done. Does one have to believe the Vedas to remain a Hindu? What about the Gita? What about 'reincurnation' or the theory of 'karma'? If one does not believe in any of these, is the guy still a Hindu? The Xongkor Xongho do not believe the Vedas. In fact Vivekananda had a hard time trying to come with a proper definition of a Hindu as to what minimum things he would haveto believe andstill claim that he was a Hindu. The greatest re interpretation of the Gita was by Gandhi, because fracnkly speaking he could not reconcile the fact that Lord Krishna was actually advising Arjun to fight and kill his own relatives in the Kurukshetra war. Ultimately he came up with the vision that Krishna was actually telling not of the real war but a war in the minds against evil. So in Hinduism, first set your belief systemas to what you like, and then find the specific scriptures which will support your view, and ignore the rest. You will remain a good Hindu without any conflict. That is why I say, more than any other religion, Hinduism is more a 'political religion'. You are a Hindu because your father was a Hindu. RB - Original Message - From: "Rajib Das" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Roy, Santanu" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Chan Mahanta" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "xourov pathok" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; assam@assamnet.org Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [Assam] caste system Santanuda, Thanks as always for very considered responses. Yes, I admit I couldn't escape putting in rhetoric there in those list of questions. Let me put in further questions to your responses. I will still await responses to my questions from the rest of the group here. Further questions: 1. Are the 4 castes really, inextricably linked to the cycle of karma and rebirth? What I mean is - does it find specific reference in the Rig Veda? Does it specifically say that you have to "abide by the bondage" of your caste to escape the karmic cycle? Or does it state that you escape the karmic cycle when you follow "Dharma" and Dharma is not necessarily defined by varna. 2. As per the original scriptures, is there a gradation of incentive systems or really the incentive system has just one incentive - moksha? Or escape from the karmic cycle of births and rebirths. Meaning - it really does not matter you are born into a particular Varna - what matters is that you are born at all. 3. We know Islam (and Islamic society) is finding itself difficult to reshape itself to modern times. Christians in Europe are doing it by, in essence, becoming non-believers. The question for Hindus is, do we have to become "non-believers" for our religion to conform to modern times? Shouldn't it be easier for us to change our interpretations (or reject them entirely) because we are not followers of THE book? 4. When I argue for certain tenets - such as the hereditary nature of the Varna system (or the Varna system itself) - does it really mean I am arguing for a new religion? I would like not to think so. --- "Roy, Santanu" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Rajib: I cannot answer all of your questions. I can see that some of them are rhetorical. There are others I really don't know the answers to.But I can try to put some kind of response for a few. 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically t
Re: [Assam] caste system
Saurav, Thanks for your knowledgeable note. Two observations: 1. There are probably quite a few historical instances where castes have been fostered within a non-Aryan jati or community that has come into contact with mainstream Hinduism at a late stage. Indeed, the process by which an outside jati enters into mainstream Hindu society must logically consist of at least two social processes. First, the way the existing mainstream society - the upper castes - in particular, view the community in question - an exogenous aspect. Second, the way the jati views itself and reshapes redefines its own social stratification using the adopted language and mirrors of mainstream Hindu society -an endogenous aspect. Indeed, these two processes need not be congruent. The relics of these processes are found in several low caste untouchable communities that have their own Brahmins. To the mainstream outsider, they are all untouchable, but to the insider there is a caste system within - a microcosm of the society that lies above them. A similar structure is also observed with respect to many tribes prior to the importing of Brahmins from mainstream society. 2. The varna system, like many other aspects of Hindu society, is in fundamental contradiction with modern society. The question in my mind is not whether Hinduism can be reformed. The real question is how will Hindus resolve these contradictions between what they ought to hold sacred and the needs of actual material life in today's society. One option is to stand by the varna system and all other traditional mores, to oppose liberal western values and in effect, do a fundamentalist jig. The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny the existence of all these aspects (as many on this net do) and then to march forward with a very selective view of Hinduism that is in consonance with modern society and liberal values. The trouble with this approach is that in all honesty, you cannot be very sure of what it is you are clutching on to therefore, in the long run, are bound to run into certain contradictions - perhaps as your children question you A third option would be to abandon the grand tradition altogether and, in effect, convert to religious orders that have their own philosphical systems that, even though historically rooted in the grand narrative, actually offer a distinct axiomatic system (Buddhism and Jainism were among the many such early orders, as were some of the Vaishnava orders). The third option is essentially fractious and inimical to the cause of a grand Hindu identity. But it may well be the most honest and logical way out for those who seek a religion. Santanu-da. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of xourov pathok Sent: Mon 3/27/2006 4:37 AM To: assam@assamnet.org Subject: [Assam] caste system a short note on the caste system: the varna system, which found its first mention in the rig veda itself, has been the only unbroken tradition of hinduism. gods have come and gone (from indra to rudra to krishna), forms of worship has changed (from yajnas to puja) but the varna system has persisted. there is an oft repeated dictum, that hinduism did not have a name for itself earlier. this is not true. the name of the religion was varnashram dharma. the varna system is the most defining aspect of hinduism. another dictum is that it divides. this also is untrue. in fact the varna system makes it possible for a jati to place itself in a readymade order. this is important because there is no personal conversion system in hinduism. instead entire jatis are converted (by placing them in the varna system), like the scythians and the koches were made hindus by placing them in the kshatriya varna. this is important. because it lets, say, a sarma or a barua from assam relate in a some meaningful way with a aiyar or an iyengar from tamil nadu. since the varna system is the most defining aspect of hinduism, how can you remove or reform it out of the religion? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org ___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Re: [Assam] caste system
Santanu The case of Srimanta Sankaradeva Sangha in Assam is an example of people revolting against the old varna order and yet maintaining a Hindu identity. Here Sankaradeva's teachings came handy to built a new socio-religious system. The yuga dharma is 'naam' as per the tenets followed by SSS, as well as neo vaishnavite; while the reigning deities remain almost the same. The population of gods also maintained at 33 crores, on an average of 1 per 5 Hindus. Somewhere shastras have mentioned - 'xatya yugot dhyan, tretat tapp, dwaporot puja, kolit 'naam'. Buddhism, Islam and Christianity are mostly 'naam' based. I think Assam's transition to Islam will be very smooth. manoj On 3/27/06, Roy, Santanu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Saurav, Thanks for your knowledgeable note. Two observations: 1. There are probably quite a few historical instances where castes have been fostered within a non-Aryan jati or community that has come into contact with mainstream Hinduism at a late stage. Indeed, the process by which an outside jati enters into mainstream Hindu society must logically consist of at least two social processes. First, the way the existing mainstream society - the upper castes - in particular, view the community in question - an exogenous aspect. Second, the way the jati views itself and reshapes redefines its own social stratification using the adopted language and mirrors of mainstream Hindu society -an endogenous aspect. Indeed, these two processes need not be congruent. The relics of these processes are found in several low caste untouchable communities that have their own Brahmins. To the mainstream outsider, they are all untouchable, but to the insider there is a caste system within - a microcosm of the society that lies above them. A similar structure is also observed with respect to many tribes prior to the importing of Brahmins from mainstream society. 2. The varna system, like many other aspects of Hindu society, is in fundamental contradiction with modern society. The question in my mind is not whether Hinduism can be reformed. The real question is how will Hindus resolve these contradictions between what they ought to hold sacred and the needs of actual material life in today's society. One option is to stand by the varna system and all other traditional mores, to oppose liberal western values and in effect, do a fundamentalist jig. The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny the existence of all these aspects (as many on this net do) and then to march forward with a very selective view of Hinduism that is in consonance with modern society and liberal values. The trouble with this approach is that in all honesty, you cannot be very sure of what it is you are clutching on to therefore, in the long run, are bound to run into certain contradictions - perhaps as your children question you A third option would be to abandon the grand tradition altogether and, in effect, convert to religious orders that have their own philosphical systems that, even though historically rooted in the grand narrative, actually offer a distinct axiomatic system (Buddhism and Jainism were among the many such early orders, as were some of the Vaishnava orders). The third option is essentially fractious and inimical to the cause of a grand Hindu identity. But it may well be the most honest and logical way out for those who seek a religion. Santanu-da. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of xourov pathok Sent: Mon 3/27/2006 4:37 AM To: assam@assamnet.org Subject: [Assam] caste system a short note on the caste system: the varna system, which found its first mention in the rig veda itself, has been the only unbroken tradition of hinduism. gods have come and gone (from indra to rudra to krishna), forms of worship has changed (from yajnas to puja) but the varna system has persisted. there is an oft repeated dictum, that hinduism did not have a name for itself earlier. this is not true. the name of the religion was varnashram dharma. the varna system is the most defining aspect of hinduism. another dictum is that it divides. this also is untrue. in fact the varna system makes it possible for a jati to place itself in a readymade order. this is important because there is no personal conversion system in hinduism. instead entire jatis are converted (by placing them in the varna system), like the scythians and the koches were made hindus by placing them in the kshatriya varna. this is important. because it lets, say, a sarma or a barua from assam relate in a some meaningful way with a aiyar or an iyengar from tamil nadu. since the varna system is the most defining aspect of hinduism, how can you remove or reform it out of the religion? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Assam] Caste System
The incident is surely deplorable. Here are the signs that show changes are taking place in India albeit slow: 1. The women had the courage to challenge the system by entering the temple. 2. The incident of beating and fine made the headlines. 3. BJD MP Mohan Jena said, "If the women who entered the temple are Hindus, then why should they be barred from entering the temple? The mindset of such upper-caste people who oppose the entry of Dalits into temples should change, otherwise the Hindu religion will crumble." 4. Kendrapara SP Pratik Mohanty said: "The district collector has ordered a probe. Depending upon the findings, the district police will take action." Let's hope that the priests of the temple and the Panchayat will be penalized, in stead of the four women who were wronged. Dilip ===- Original Message From: Barua25 [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: assam@assamnet.orgSent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 8:45:12 PMSubject: [Assam] Caste System hindustantimes.com BHUBANESWAR, INDIA, December 15, 2005: Another controversy over temple entry has hit Orissa. In Keraragard village in Kendrapara district, four Dalit women who entered a temple were beaten and later fined US$22.24 (a considerable sum) by the village panchayat. Sebati Muduli, Annapurna Mahali, Jharana Jena and Sakuntala Muduli had entered the Jagannath temple in Keraragard as a matter of right, as only non-Hindus are barred from entering some temples. But this invited the wrath of the priests and upper-caste villagers. After the women were beaten, the village panchayat issued a decree to recover $22.24 from them -- to spend on temple-purification rituals. BJD MP Mohan Jena said, "If the women who entered the temple are Hindus, then why should they be barred from entering the temple? The mindset of such upper-caste people who oppose the entry of Dalits into temples should change, otherwise the Hindu religion will crumble." The priests, however, remained unmoved. Niranjan Panda, head priest of the temple in Kerargard, defended the practice. "The entry of scheduled caste people has been prohibited for many years," he said. Kendrapara SP Pratik Mohanty said: "The district collector has ordered a probe. Depending upon the findings, the district police will take action." Is it not shame for India. How the village Panchayat, the whole group of perople still can do such thing. Is it not against the law to discrininate on caste basis? This simply shows that, like Child Labor, caste system is notcondemned by the peopel in India. It is in Indian blood and will be there. RB ___assam mailing listassam@assamnet.orghttp://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org___ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
