[Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
I am sorry if my comments have caused you any offence. That was certainly not my intention. Perhaps it would have been more accurate if I had stated that the incidents with the Indian army occur with worrying regularity rather than "all the time". By my comments, I am not seeking to make a direct comparison between the situation in the UK and India. However I would suggest that a balanced picture needs to be drawn. Whilst I now live in the UK, I am an Indian by birth. I am not, by my comments seeking to criticise my homeland, far from it -- I love the country where I was born and raised. However and perhaps because of this, I simply can not ignore the obvious and worrying situation which I see and hear about each time I return. You have requested examples. I would suggest that you simply consider the numerous incidents that are frequently reported in the local newspaper covering the area. It was the Indian army in Assam (CRPF Jawans) who rapes tribal women in villages while they raid their houses looking for militants every now and again. The killing of Ranjit Borpujari at one of the hostel at Cotton College in that July morning 1960 is still fresh in my memory. I was only a school girl. On that occasion there was a protest demanding Assamese language to be officially recognised. As the procession passed the Second Mess in Panbazar, number of young boys were playing table-tennis at the forecourt of the hostel. As another young boy (still in his pyjamas) coming out of a room, the S.P. gave an order to shoot. Shots were fired at the group and the boy who was coming out of the room was shot in the back of the head and subsequently died. He was Ranjit Borpujari -- an innocent young student. Was there a detailed inquiry or investigation ? was the officer who gave the order prosecuted or arrested or even reprimanded for his actions ? I do not know. All I knew that he was simply transferred out of Assam. This incident remains with me to this day, not least as one of my maternal uncle Amar Hazarika (Manju mama) who is a champion table-tennis player of Assam was also heavily injured along with others -- as a result. During Assam agitation in 1980, young boy Khageshsar Talukdar was killed in Barpeta when again the S.P. gave an order to shoot at a peaceful demonstration. Whilst I appreciate that this incident occurred many years ago, incidents like these sadly continue up to the present day. There are numerous similar reported incidents where innocent young men are killed by the Indian army when they are looking for ULFA or similar. These incidents are simply recorded as men "... killed on encounters." A short cold phrase frequently used to cover a multitude of sins. At the end of the day we are agreed that recent shooting in London was extremely sad and unfortunate and I appreciate that you support my stance on this issue. Perhaps we should now draw a line under this matter. Hopefully we can agree that there are elements of good and bad in all countries and all cultures and that it is important that people question incidents where human life is violated or taken away, particularly where it arises from an "abuse of power". Rini KakatiWinks & nudges are here - Download MSN Messenger 7.0 today! ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
[Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
I am sorry if my comments have caused you any offence. That was certainly not my intention Of course, I do understand that you had intention was not to offend. I also understand that being close to 'ground-zero' would change anyone's prespective on such matters. And no offence taken. Some points though: The case of Borpujari,if I remember correct, involved the CRPF (Andhra), and again not the Indian Army. Having been a boarder of 3rd Mess for a number of years, we too would get chills as we passes by 2nd Mess everyday. the S.P. gave an order to shoot That in it self should clue us in that it wasn't the army. The Army and the CRPF are totally different forces. In India, only in dire circumstances is the army deployed. The reason is to keep them at a distance from the public and use them primarily in the country's defence and national security. The same with Khargeswar Talukdar. We were students at that time and if did affect all of us deeply. Again it wasn't the army. Now, have army personnel ever been on the wrong side? Absolutely, and one can cite many examples. But the example I was looking for was if there was a 'standing policy' that the Indian Army had to shoot-to-kill? I seriously doubt that. As for the rapes etc, when individual soldiers go berserk, the Indian Military Courts of Justice, just does not give them a pat on their backs and send them on their way. These MCJ is extremely strict, and punishments are severe, and not publized at all. To sum it up, what I was trying to get to is this: The 3 cops chasing the Brazillian were basically following POLICY when they shot the young man when he was down on the ground, (obviously surrendered), and that too 7 times to the head at point blank range (because the policy states that shooting on the chest may trigger an explosion etc etc). My problem is more to do with a policy terribily gone wrong and not so much with the cops on the beat. There is another thing. If the cops in India had been in a similar situation, I have little doubt that the whole Western Hemisphere would be tellling the Indians how to apprehend and capture terrorists and avoid killing innocent bystanders. Not only that, they would be do so in a holier-than-thou attitude. with warm regards --Ram On 7/30/05, Rini Kakati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sorry if my comments have caused you any offence. That was certainly not my intention. Perhaps it would have been more accurate if I had stated that the incidents with the Indian army occur with worrying regularity rather than all the time. By my comments, I am not seeking to make a direct comparison between the situation in the UK and India. However I would suggest that a balanced picture needs to be drawn. Whilst I now live in the UK, I am an Indian by birth. I am not, by my comments seeking to criticise my homeland, far from it -- I love the country where I was born and raised. However and perhaps because of this, I simply can not ignore the obvious and worrying situation which I see and hear about each time I return. You have requested examples. I would suggest that you simply consider the numerous incidents that are frequently reported in the local newspaper covering the area. It was the Indian army in Assam (CRPF Jawans) who rapes tribal women in villages while they raid their houses looking for militants every now and again. The killing of Ranjit Borpujari at one of the hostel at Cotton College in that July morning 1960 is still fresh in my memory. I was only a school girl. On that occasion there was a protest demanding Assamese language to be officially recognised. As the procession passed the Second Mess in Panbazar, number of young boys were playing table-tennis at the forecourt of the hostel. As another young boy (still in his pyjamas) coming out of a room, the S.P. gave an order to shoot. Shots were fired at the group and the boy who was coming out of the room was shot in the back of the head and subsequently died. He was Ranjit Borpujari -- an innocent young student. Was there a detailed inquiry or investigation ? was the officer who gave the order prosecuted or arrested or even reprimanded for his actions ? I do not know. All I knew that he was simply transferred out of Assam. This incident remains with me to this day, not least as one of my maternal uncle Amar Hazarika (Manju mama) who is a champion table-tennis player of Assam was also heavily injured along with others -- as a result. During Assam agitation in 1980, young boy Khageshsar Talukdar was killed in Barpeta when again the S.P. gave an order to shoot at a peaceful demonstration. Whilst I appreciate that this incident occurred many years ago, incidents like these sadly continue up to the present day. There are numerous similar reported incidents where innocent young men are killed by the Indian army when they are looking for ULFA or similar. These incidents are simply recorded as
[Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
There is another thing. If the cops in India had been in a similar situation, I have little doubt that the whole Western Hemisphere would be tellling the Indians how to apprehend and capture terrorists and avoid killing innocent bystanders. Not only that, they would be do so in a holier-than-thou attitude. Tsk, tsk! My heart goes out to all these cops-but- not-army folks who are lectured by the whole world if they mistakenly take someone's life. Have you heard of deaths in custody? Must be under dire circumstances, attempting to save the public from clear and imminent danger. Give us a break Ram. The victim complex displayed here is very unpersuasive, to put it mildly. And I won't even touch the 'professionalism' of the armed forces, what with officers getting decorated for trophies of 'insurgents' taken in fake-encounters, or gunned down routinely because they look so foreign. c-da At 8:50 AM -0500 7/30/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote: I am sorry if my comments have caused you any offence. That was certainly not my intention Of course, I do understand that you had intention was not to offend. I also understand that being close to 'ground-zero' would change anyone's prespective on such matters. And no offence taken. Some points though: The case of Borpujari,if I remember correct, involved the CRPF (Andhra), and again not the Indian Army. Having been a boarder of 3rd Mess for a number of years, we too would get chills as we passes by 2nd Mess everyday. the S.P. gave an order to shoot That in it self should clue us in that it wasn't the army. The Army and the CRPF are totally different forces. In India, only in dire circumstances is the army deployed. The reason is to keep them at a distance from the public and use them primarily in the country's defence and national security. The same with Khargeswar Talukdar. We were students at that time and if did affect all of us deeply. Again it wasn't the army. Now, have army personnel ever been on the wrong side? Absolutely, and one can cite many examples. But the example I was looking for was if there was a 'standing policy' that the Indian Army had to shoot-to-kill? I seriously doubt that. As for the rapes etc, when individual soldiers go berserk, the Indian Military Courts of Justice, just does not give them a pat on their backs and send them on their way. These MCJ is extremely strict, and punishments are severe, and not publized at all. To sum it up, what I was trying to get to is this: The 3 cops chasing the Brazillian were basically following POLICY when they shot the young man when he was down on the ground, (obviously surrendered), and that too 7 times to the head at point blank range (because the policy states that shooting on the chest may trigger an explosion etc etc). My problem is more to do with a policy terribily gone wrong and not so much with the cops on the beat. There is another thing. If the cops in India had been in a similar situation, I have little doubt that the whole Western Hemisphere would be tellling the Indians how to apprehend and capture terrorists and avoid killing innocent bystanders. Not only that, they would be do so in a holier-than-thou attitude. with warm regards --Ram On 7/30/05, Rini Kakati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sorry if my comments have caused you any offence. That was certainly not my intention. Perhaps it would have been more accurate if I had stated that the incidents with the Indian army occur with worrying regularity rather than all the time. By my comments, I am not seeking to make a direct comparison between the situation in the UK and India. However I would suggest that a balanced picture needs to be drawn. Whilst I now live in the UK, I am an Indian by birth. I am not, by my comments seeking to criticise my homeland, far from it -- I love the country where I was born and raised. However and perhaps because of this, I simply can not ignore the obvious and worrying situation which I see and hear about each time I return. You have requested examples. I would suggest that you simply consider the numerous incidents that are frequently reported in the local newspaper covering the area. It was the Indian army in Assam (CRPF Jawans) who rapes tribal women in villages while they raid their houses looking for militants every now and again. The killing of Ranjit Borpujari at one of the hostel at Cotton College in that July morning 1960 is still fresh in my memory. I was only a school girl. On that occasion there was a protest demanding Assamese language to be officially recognised. As the procession passed the Second Mess in Panbazar, number of young boys were playing table-tennis at the forecourt of the hostel. As another young boy (still in his pyjamas) coming out of a room, the S.P. gave an order to shoot. Shots were fired at the group and the boy who was coming out of the room was shot in the back of the head and subsequently
Re: [Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
Just to get to the bottom line , as Dylan said How many miles must ... the answer my fr.. is blowing in the --- Chan Mahanta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is another thing. If the cops in India had been in a similar situation, I have little doubt that the whole Western Hemisphere would be tellling the Indians how to apprehend and capture terrorists and avoid killing innocent bystanders. Not only that, they would be do so in a holier-than-thou attitude. Tsk, tsk! My heart goes out to all these cops-but- not-army folks who are lectured by the whole world if they mistakenly take someone's life. Have you heard of deaths in custody? Must be under dire circumstances, attempting to save the public from clear and imminent danger. Give us a break Ram. The victim complex displayed here is very unpersuasive, to put it mildly. And I won't even touch the 'professionalism' of the armed forces, what with officers getting decorated for trophies of 'insurgents' taken in fake-encounters, or gunned down routinely because they look so foreign. c-da At 8:50 AM -0500 7/30/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote: I am sorry if my comments have caused you any offence. That was certainly not my intention Of course, I do understand that you had intention was not to offend. I also understand that being close to 'ground-zero' would change anyone's prespective on such matters. And no offence taken. Some points though: The case of Borpujari,if I remember correct, involved the CRPF (Andhra), and again not the Indian Army. Having been a boarder of 3rd Mess for a number of years, we too would get chills as we passes by 2nd Mess everyday. the S.P. gave an order to shoot That in it self should clue us in that it wasn't the army. The Army and the CRPF are totally different forces. In India, only in dire circumstances is the army deployed. The reason is to keep them at a distance from the public and use them primarily in the country's defence and national security. The same with Khargeswar Talukdar. We were students at that time and if did affect all of us deeply. Again it wasn't the army. Now, have army personnel ever been on the wrong side? Absolutely, and one can cite many examples. But the example I was looking for was if there was a 'standing policy' that the Indian Army had to shoot-to-kill? I seriously doubt that. As for the rapes etc, when individual soldiers go berserk, the Indian Military Courts of Justice, just does not give them a pat on their backs and send them on their way. These MCJ is extremely strict, and punishments are severe, and not publized at all. To sum it up, what I was trying to get to is this: The 3 cops chasing the Brazillian were basically following POLICY when they shot the young man when he was down on the ground, (obviously surrendered), and that too 7 times to the head at point blank range (because the policy states that shooting on the chest may trigger an explosion etc etc). My problem is more to do with a policy terribily gone wrong and not so much with the cops on the beat. There is another thing. If the cops in India had been in a similar situation, I have little doubt that the whole Western Hemisphere would be tellling the Indians how to apprehend and capture terrorists and avoid killing innocent bystanders. Not only that, they would be do so in a holier-than-thou attitude. with warm regards --Ram On 7/30/05, Rini Kakati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sorry if my comments have caused you any offence. That was certainly not my intention. Perhaps it would have been more accurate if I had stated that the incidents with the Indian army occur with worrying regularity rather than all the time. By my comments, I am not seeking to make a direct comparison between the situation in the UK and India. However I would suggest that a balanced picture needs to be drawn. Whilst I now live in the UK, I am an Indian by birth. I am not, by my comments seeking to criticise my homeland, far from it -- I love the country where I was born and raised. However and perhaps because of this, I simply can not ignore the obvious and worrying situation which I see and hear about each time I return. You have requested examples. I would suggest that you simply consider the numerous incidents that are frequently reported in the local newspaper covering the area. It was the Indian army in Assam (CRPF Jawans) who rapes tribal women in villages while they raid their houses looking for militants every now and again. The killing of Ranjit Borpujari at one of the hostel at Cotton College in that July morning 1960 is still fresh in my memory. I was only a school girl. On that occasion there was a protest demanding Assamese language to be officially recognised. As the
[Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
The difference between the Indian Army and British Bobby is -- the Indian Army do it all the time in a callous, calculative and well planned manner. Whereas the police officerin London had to do it in split seconds. This morning when I walk past the high street I saw few people waving placards reading "Racist killers", "No shoot to kill". In my mind to say how lucky you guys are ! -- you are not one of those innocents killed in 7 July. But none of these idealistic protesters have put themselves in the shoe of the undoubtedly courageous police officers who are struggling to protect Britain from the ever -- burgeoning threat of terrorism. It was human error and we all do it. But the difference in other professions, can apologise for their mistakes and move on. It is never that simple for a police officer on what is rapidly becoming the war-style front line of crime fighting in Britain. If the Brazilian had been a suicide bomber, shouting to injure would'nt have prevented him from detonating a bomb. If it is my son I'd be shouting and screaming and demanding a full explanation into how this terrible mistake robbed an innocent man of his life. Looking at it objectively, what is the alternative ?. This is a terrible tragic mistake and no one wishes to distract from the grief suffered by Jean Charles de Menzes' family. But if this country and everyday commuter like myself is going to stand a chance of beating terrorism then Sir Ian Blair (Met Commissioner) is right to say the "shoot-to-kill" policy stays in place. Rini KakatiWinks & nudges are here - Download MSN Messenger 7.0 today! ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
[Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
The difference between the Indian Army and British Bobby is -- the Indian Army do it all the time in a callous, calculative and well planned manner. Whereas the police officer in London had to do it in split seconds. In my last post I mentioned how wrong Umesh (while supporting your case) was in comparing the Manorama situation and the British police action. I mentioned Bobby had to make a slit-second decision, while the Manorama case was one where a few Assam Rifles jawans committed a crime. Now, above here you have with one sweep made the Indian Army look like they are a vicious group of thugs. The Assam Rifles is NOT the Indian Army, and if we have to compare then either compare the British Army to the Indian Army or Bobby to our 'thula' In spite of certain incidents, the Indian Army, one of the largest in the world is a very diciplined, and efficient set. Can you cite some examples, since you say they do it all the time, where you have found the Indian Army to have planned to rape and plunder anyone? The Indian Army, like the British or even the Pakistani Army, is steeped in tradition, extremely diciplined, with a very efficient code of conduct, courts of Military Justice etc. It is NOT some rag-tag bunch of idiots running around the country. --Ram On 7/27/05, Rini Kakati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The difference between the Indian Army and British Bobby is -- the Indian Army do it all the time in a callous, calculative and well planned manner. Whereas the police officer in London had to do it in split seconds. This morning when I walk past the high street I saw few people waving placards reading Racist killers, No shoot to kill. In my mind to say how lucky you guys are ! -- you are not one of those innocents killed in 7 July. But none of these idealistic protesters have put themselves in the shoe of the undoubtedly courageous police officers who are struggling to protect Britain from the ever -- burgeoning threat of terrorism. It was human error and we all do it. But the difference in other professions, can apologise for their mistakes and move on. It is never that simple for a police officer on what is rapidly becoming the war-style front line of crime fighting in Britain. If the Brazilian had been a suicide bomber, shouting to injure would'nt have prevented him from detonating a bomb. If it is my son I'd be shouting and screaming and demanding a full explanation into how this terrible mistake robbed an innocent man of his life. Looking at it objectively, what is the alternative ?. This is a terrible tragic mistake and no one wishes to distract from the grief suffered by Jean Charles de Menzes' family. But if this country and everyday commuter like myself is going to stand a chance of beating terrorism then Sir Ian Blair (Met Commissioner) is right to say the shoot-to-kill policy stays in place. Rini Kakati Winks nudges are here - Download MSN Messenger 7.0 today! ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
Re: [Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
Is that all true? I mean about the comparison between the bobby and the thulla? I agree with you on the decision to put those 8 (wasn't 1 enough?) bullets through the head of a guy running away despite police entreaties and that too with a long coat on. But c'mon - the bobby has had only the first case of bombing from the mullahs. The Indian army has had it happening for sometime now. One hit and the Muslim community has threats, graffiti, mosque burning and what not coming in from the general populace. What happens when that happens on a fairly regular basis -let's say once every month or so for the next 10 years? I am sure they will be butchered way before that. Let's not give the bobby too much credit - wasn't his ancestor responsible for Jallian Wala Bagh? Wasn't British policy one of absolute passivity all these years - give all these Jihadists that create trouble all over the world shelter. Till they come home to roost. Finally, when the very same guys (idealogicially speaking) did the Bombay blasts not too long back (and there were 500 killed, not 50) - the British government (or was it the EU) that had the gall to call upon India to solve Kashmir to prevent these killings. We need the bobby to be putting in those bullets. We also need the protestors to be keeping them on the edge. Hopefully therein they would find a balance over the long term term. --- Rini Kakati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - The difference between the Indian Army and British Bobby is -- the Indian Army do it all the time in a callous, calculative and well planned manner. Whereas the police officer in London had to do it in split seconds. This morning when I walk past the high street I saw few people waving placards reading Racist killers, No shoot to kill. In my mind to say how lucky you guys are ! -- you are not one of those innocents killed in 7 July. But none of these idealistic protesters have put themselves in the shoe of the undoubtedly courageous police officers who are struggling to protect Britain from the ever -- burgeoning threat of terrorism. It was human error and we all do it. But the difference in other professions, can apologise for their mistakes and move on. It is never that simple for a police officer on what is rapidly becoming the war-style front line of crime fighting in Britain. If the Brazilian had been a suicide bomber, shouting to injure would'nt have prevented him from detonating a bomb. If it is my son I'd be shouting and screaming and demanding a full explanation into how this terrible mistake robbed an innocent man of his life. Looking at it objectively, what is the alternative ?. This is a terrible tragic mistake and no one wishes to distract from the grief suffered by Jean Charles de Menzes' family. But if this country and everyday commuter like myself is going to stand a chance of beating terrorism then Sir Ian Blair (Met Commissioner) is right to say the shoot-to-kill policy stays in place. Rini Kakati - Winks nudges are here - Download MSN Messenger 7.0 today! ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
Re: [Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
Rajib-da wrote: We need the bobby to be putting in those bullets. Wealso need the protestors to be keeping them on theedge. Hopefully therein they would find a balance overthe long term term. That seems quite a balanced view. UmeshRajib Das [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is that all true? I mean about the comparison betweenthe bobby and the thulla? I agree with you on thedecision to put those 8 (wasn't 1 enough?) bulletsthrough the head of a guy running away despite policeentreaties and that too with a long coat on.But c'mon - the bobby has had only the first case ofbombing from the mullahs. The Indian army has had ithappening for sometime now. One hit and the Muslimcommunity has threats, graffiti, mosque burning andwhat not coming in from the general populace. Whathappens when that happens on a fairly regular basis-let's say once every month or so for the next 10years? I am sure they will be butchered way beforethat.Let's not give the bobby too much credit - wasn't hisancestor responsible for Jallian Wala Bagh? Wasn'tBritish policy one of absolute passivity all these! years - give all these Jihadists that create troubleall over the world shelter. Till they come home toroost.Finally, when the very same guys (idealogiciallyspeaking) did the Bombay blasts not too long back (andthere were 500 killed, not 50) - the Britishgovernment (or was it the EU) that had the gall tocall upon India to solve Kashmir to prevent thesekillings.We need the bobby to be putting in those bullets. Wealso need the protestors to be keeping them on theedge. Hopefully therein they would find a balance overthe long term term.--- Rini Kakati <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:-The difference between the Indian Army and BritishBobby is -- the Indian Army do it all the time in acallous, calculative and well planned manner. Whereasthe police officer in London had to do it in splitseconds.This morning when I walk past the high street I sawfew p! eople waving placards reading "Racist killers","No shoot to kill". In my mind to say how lucky youguys are ! -- you are not one of those innocentskilled in 7 July. But none of these idealisticprotesters have put themselves in the shoe of theundoubtedly courageous police officers who arestruggling to protect Britain from the ever --burgeoning threat of terrorism.It was human error and we all do it. But thedifference in other professions, can apologise fortheir mistakes and move on. It is never that simplefor a police officer on what is rapidly becoming thewar-style front line of crime fighting in Britain.If the Brazilian had been a suicide bomber, shoutingto injure would'nt have prevented him from detonatinga bomb. If it is my son I'd be shouting and screamingand demanding a full explanation into how thisterrible mistake robbed an innocent man of his life.Looking at it objectively, what is the alternat! ive ?.This is a terrible tragic mistake and no one wishes todistract from the grief suffered by Jean Charles deMenzes' family. But if this country and everydaycommuter like myself is going to stand a chance ofbeating terrorism then Sir Ian Blair (MetCommissioner) is right to say the "shoot-to-kill"policy stays in place.Rini Kakati -Winks nudges are here - Download MSN Messenger 7.0today! ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam p! rotection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___Assam mailing listAssam@pikespeak.uccs.eduhttp://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assamMailing list FAQ:http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.htmlTo unsubscribe or change options:http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
Re: [Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
I mean about the comparison between the bobby and the thulla? I was only trying to separate the military from the policy. If one has to compare, then they should compare the British constabulary with the Indian police, and the British Military with the Indian Military. Let's not give the bobby too much credit - wasn't his ancestor responsible for Jallian Wala Bagh? That was the British Army, under Gen. Dyer But, I agree with your other points on British policy. On 7/27/05, Rajib Das [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is that all true? I mean about the comparison between the bobby and the thulla? I agree with you on the decision to put those 8 (wasn't 1 enough?) bullets through the head of a guy running away despite police entreaties and that too with a long coat on. But c'mon - the bobby has had only the first case of bombing from the mullahs. The Indian army has had it happening for sometime now. One hit and the Muslim community has threats, graffiti, mosque burning and what not coming in from the general populace. What happens when that happens on a fairly regular basis -let's say once every month or so for the next 10 years? I am sure they will be butchered way before that. Let's not give the bobby too much credit - wasn't his ancestor responsible for Jallian Wala Bagh? Wasn't British policy one of absolute passivity all these years - give all these Jihadists that create trouble all over the world shelter. Till they come home to roost. Finally, when the very same guys (idealogicially speaking) did the Bombay blasts not too long back (and there were 500 killed, not 50) - the British government (or was it the EU) that had the gall to call upon India to solve Kashmir to prevent these killings. We need the bobby to be putting in those bullets. We also need the protestors to be keeping them on the edge. Hopefully therein they would find a balance over the long term term. --- Rini Kakati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - The difference between the Indian Army and British Bobby is -- the Indian Army do it all the time in a callous, calculative and well planned manner. Whereas the police officer in London had to do it in split seconds. This morning when I walk past the high street I saw few people waving placards reading Racist killers, No shoot to kill. In my mind to say how lucky you guys are ! -- you are not one of those innocents killed in 7 July. But none of these idealistic protesters have put themselves in the shoe of the undoubtedly courageous police officers who are struggling to protect Britain from the ever -- burgeoning threat of terrorism. It was human error and we all do it. But the difference in other professions, can apologise for their mistakes and move on. It is never that simple for a police officer on what is rapidly becoming the war-style front line of crime fighting in Britain. If the Brazilian had been a suicide bomber, shouting to injure would'nt have prevented him from detonating a bomb. If it is my son I'd be shouting and screaming and demanding a full explanation into how this terrible mistake robbed an innocent man of his life. Looking at it objectively, what is the alternative ?. This is a terrible tragic mistake and no one wishes to distract from the grief suffered by Jean Charles de Menzes' family. But if this country and everyday commuter like myself is going to stand a chance of beating terrorism then Sir Ian Blair (Met Commissioner) is right to say the shoot-to-kill policy stays in place. Rini Kakati - Winks nudges are here - Download MSN Messenger 7.0 today! ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
Re: [Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
I was only trying to separate the military from the policy. If one has to compare, then they should compare the British constabulary with the Indian police, and the British Military with the Indian Military. !!! But Why . Both are sailors sailing the same boat off course in a diff. way. With warm regards JP --- Ram Sarangapani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I mean about the comparison between the bobby and the thulla? I was only trying to separate the military from the policy. If one has to compare, then they should compare the British constabulary with the Indian police, and the British Military with the Indian Military. Let's not give the bobby too much credit - wasn't his ancestor responsible for Jallian Wala Bagh? That was the British Army, under Gen. Dyer But, I agree with your other points on British policy. On 7/27/05, Rajib Das [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is that all true? I mean about the comparison between the bobby and the thulla? I agree with you on the decision to put those 8 (wasn't 1 enough?) bullets through the head of a guy running away despite police entreaties and that too with a long coat on. But c'mon - the bobby has had only the first case of bombing from the mullahs. The Indian army has had it happening for sometime now. One hit and the Muslim community has threats, graffiti, mosque burning and what not coming in from the general populace. What happens when that happens on a fairly regular basis -let's say once every month or so for the next 10 years? I am sure they will be butchered way before that. Let's not give the bobby too much credit - wasn't his ancestor responsible for Jallian Wala Bagh? Wasn't British policy one of absolute passivity all these years - give all these Jihadists that create trouble all over the world shelter. Till they come home to roost. Finally, when the very same guys (idealogicially speaking) did the Bombay blasts not too long back (and there were 500 killed, not 50) - the British government (or was it the EU) that had the gall to call upon India to solve Kashmir to prevent these killings. We need the bobby to be putting in those bullets. We also need the protestors to be keeping them on the edge. Hopefully therein they would find a balance over the long term term. --- Rini Kakati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - The difference between the Indian Army and British Bobby is -- the Indian Army do it all the time in a callous, calculative and well planned manner. Whereas the police officer in London had to do it in split seconds. This morning when I walk past the high street I saw few people waving placards reading Racist killers, No shoot to kill. In my mind to say how lucky you guys are ! -- you are not one of those innocents killed in 7 July. But none of these idealistic protesters have put themselves in the shoe of the undoubtedly courageous police officers who are struggling to protect Britain from the ever -- burgeoning threat of terrorism. It was human error and we all do it. But the difference in other professions, can apologise for their mistakes and move on. It is never that simple for a police officer on what is rapidly becoming the war-style front line of crime fighting in Britain. If the Brazilian had been a suicide bomber, shouting to injure would'nt have prevented him from detonating a bomb. If it is my son I'd be shouting and screaming and demanding a full explanation into how this terrible mistake robbed an innocent man of his life. Looking at it objectively, what is the alternative ?. This is a terrible tragic mistake and no one wishes to distract from the grief suffered by Jean Charles de Menzes' family. But if this country and everyday commuter like myself is going to stand a chance of beating terrorism then Sir Ian Blair (Met Commissioner) is right to say the shoot-to-kill policy stays in place. Rini Kakati - Winks nudges are here - Download MSN Messenger 7.0 today! ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options:
[Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
Rini-ji, I wonder this support you extend to the army men deployed in North East India and Kashmir also. I realize that you being based at UK do feel strongly in support of British police -- and speak against the Human Rights groups. Do you also support the rape and killing of Manorama Devi of Manipur in July 2004 - allegedlyby Indian armymen-- that they too are humans and can make mistakes and that Human Rights groups are stupid? Umesh -- Rini-ji wrote: The so called Human rights, countries Legal Aid system -- Liberal lawyers, all must be rubbing their hands in glee as they begin to sharpening their pens ready to dash off the writs. Firearms are tragically, part and parcel of modern criminal society and our policemen must be equipped to deal with them. They are patrolling London's streets today. Knowing they could be called on fire their weapons at any moment, hoping against hope their target is a terrorist and not an electrician.Rini Kakati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no doubt that this is an absolute tragedy. Have you made a mistake at work recently. I did. In fact I do it all the time, little judgements calls that go wrong. Spare a thought then for the policemen responsible for the shooting of Brazilian Electrician. But while most of us can walk away from our mistakes relatively unscathed, those involved now can expect to be charged, face loosing their jobs and even going to jail. But to me -- it is exactly this kind of nonsense that cannot be allowed to happen. The so called Human rights, countries Legal Aid system -- Liberal lawyers, all must be rubbing their hands in glee as they begin to sharpening their pens ready to dash off the writs. Firearms are tragically, part and parcel of modern criminal society and our policemen must be equipped to deal with them. They are patrolling London's streets today. Knowing they could be called on fire their weapons at any moment, hoping against hope their target is a terrorist and not an electrician. Of course the security services have to be accountable. But make no mistake, we are at war here. Not since the Second World War has London been under such sustained attack. Those loonies are still on the lose desperate to blow themselves up and take as many Londoners with them as possible. If any one of them come any where near me while I am at the tube or bus, I want to know that an armed policeman will not hesitate to shoot. I don't want images of internal inquires, sackings and courtrooms flashing through his mind. If we are to ask them to be responsible for our security we must be prepared to take the consequences, when things inevitably go wrong. Every politician in this country needs to have the conviction to get behind our policemen at this crucial time or we may as well surrender to the terrorists now. It turn out the Brazilian shot by police on the tube was almost certainly in the country illegally. His immigration status would explain why he ran away from police, and ignored repeated requests to surrender. The Brazilian must have been aware of the heightened tension in London. So his behaviour was not only suspicious it was suicidally reckless. It obviously does not justify him being killed. But he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and undoubtedly contributed to his own death, tragic as it was. No doubt there will be an explanation in due course. All of this is supposition, but there can be no arguing with the fact that, had he obeyed the police he would still have been alive. Predictably, some of our Asian community leaders have been quick to complain about racial profiling by police. But since all suicide bombers in London have been young Muslim men with dark skins, who are Scotland Yard expected to target -- Scandinavians, Seventh-Day Adventists ? Mr. de Menezes was Brazilian, but he did not have a physical resemblance to the bombers. It is an unfortunate consequence of the Islamist terror campaign that decent Muslims and other young men with dusky skin will come under suspicion. Unfortunately we are just going to live with it -- just as genuine white men were singled out for body search on their way into football grounds because of the behaviour of a hooligan minority. Rini Kakati Now you can search and browse smarter using the new MSN Search Toolbar including Windows Desktop Search! Can't remember an address in your address book? Enter the first few letters and Address AutoComplete will automatically finish it. Get Yahoo! Mail___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
[Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
Rini-ji, I wonder this support you extend to the army men deployed in North East India and Kashmir also. I realize that you being based at UK do feel strongly in support of British police -- and speak against the Human Rights groups. Do you also support the rape and killing of Manorama Devi of Manipur in July 2004 - allegedlyby Indian armymen-- that they too are humans and can make mistakes and that Human Rights groups are stupid? Umesh -- Rini-ji wrote: The so called Human rights, countries Legal Aid system -- Liberal lawyers, all must be rubbing their hands in glee as they begin to sharpening their pens ready to dash off the writs. Firearms are tragically, part and parcel of modern criminal society and our policemen must be equipped to deal with them. They are patrolling London's streets today. Knowing they could be called on fire their weapons at any moment, hoping against hope their target is a terrorist and not an electrician.Rini Kakati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no doubt that this is an absolute tragedy. Have you made a mistake at work recently. I did. In fact I do it all the time, little judgements calls that go wrong. Spare a thought then for the policemen responsible for the shooting of Brazilian Electrician. But while most of us can walk away from our mistakes relatively unscathed, those involved now can expect to be charged, face loosing their jobs and even going to jail. But to me -- it is exactly this kind of nonsense that cannot be allowed to happen. The so called Human rights, countries Legal Aid system -- Liberal lawyers, all must be rubbing their hands in glee as they begin to sharpening their pens ready to dash off the writs. Firearms are tragically, part and parcel of modern criminal society and our policemen must be equipped to deal with them. They are patrolling London's streets today. Knowing they could be called on fire their weapons at any moment, hoping against hope their target is a terrorist and not an electrician. Of course the security services have to be accountable. But make no mistake, we are at war here. Not since the Second World War has London been under such sustained attack. Those loonies are still on the lose desperate to blow themselves up and take as many Londoners with them as possible. If any one of them come any where near me while I am at the tube or bus, I want to know that an armed policeman will not hesitate to shoot. I don't want images of internal inquires, sackings and courtrooms flashing through his mind. If we are to ask them to be responsible for our security we must be prepared to take the consequences, when things inevitably go wrong. Every politician in this country needs to have the conviction to get behind our policemen at this crucial time or we may as well surrender to the terrorists now. It turn out the Brazilian shot by police on the tube was almost certainly in the country illegally. His immigration status would explain why he ran away from police, and ignored repeated requests to surrender. The Brazilian must have been aware of the heightened tension in London. So his behaviour was not only suspicious it was suicidally reckless. It obviously does not justify him being killed. But he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and undoubtedly contributed to his own death, tragic as it was. No doubt there will be an explanation in due course. All of this is supposition, but there can be no arguing with the fact that, had he obeyed the police he would still have been alive. Predictably, some of our Asian community leaders have been quick to complain about racial profiling by police. But since all suicide bombers in London have been young Muslim men with dark skins, who are Scotland Yard expected to target -- Scandinavians, Seventh-Day Adventists ? Mr. de Menezes was Brazilian, but he did not have a physical resemblance to the bombers. It is an unfortunate consequence of the Islamist terror campaign that decent Muslims and other young men with dusky skin will come under suspicion. Unfortunately we are just going to live with it -- just as genuine white men were singled out for body search on their way into football grounds because of the behaviour of a hooligan minority. Rini Kakati Now you can search and browse smarter using the new MSN Search Toolbar including Windows Desktop Search! Too much spam in your inbox? Yahoo! Mail gives you the best spam protection for FREE! Get Yahoo! Mail___ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
[Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro
Umesh I wonder this support you extend to the army men deployed in North East India and Kashmir also. I realize that you being based at UK do feel strongly in support of British police -- and speak against the Human Rights groups. Do you also support the rape and killing of Manorama Devi of Manipur in July 2004 - allegedly by Indian armymen-- that they too are humans and can make mistakes and that Human Rights groups are stupid? This is not a logical question and totally unfair. Just because someone supports the British cops does not mean they are giving tacit approval to the attackers of Manorama. In the case of the British cops, the decision was to be made in a split second. A error in judgement can be made. I don't think that was the case in the rape of Manorama. It was probably planned, and carried out by jawans who have such proclivities. They are apples oranges. RK and C'da have categorically said that this is a tradegy. London: The errant officers mau pay the price (thrown of the jobs etc), but the real culprit is the British policy of 'shoot-to-kill' and their sluething . Add to that the inexperience of the officers in firearms. The shoot-to-kill policy is defended on the grounds that a sucide bomber would be carrying explosives on his chest/back, so the suspect should be shot in the head. The Brazillian was shot 8 times from reports (7 to his head, and 1 to the shoulder). --An overkill one could aptly say. Assam/Kashmir: Inspite of the horrors of Manorama Devi or other attrocities, the Indian Govt. does not have a policy of 'shoot-to-kill'. Moreover, Britain is supposedly a paragon of standards, efficiencies, Human rights and secularism. How do you compare British inefficiencies with Indian inefficiencies? IMHO, the officers did what was expected of them under the circumstances - to follow guidelines. Just like Abu Graibh. In the end, the culprit is the faulty guideline, and not so much the officers following them. In the Manoram case, did the jawans go scott-free? Was there a policy in the Indian Govt. that jawans are allowed to rape and pillage? --Ram da On 7/26/05, umesh sharma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rini-ji, I wonder this support you extend to the army men deployed in North East India and Kashmir also. I realize that you being based at UK do feel strongly in support of British police -- and speak against the Human Rights groups. Do you also support the rape and killing of Manorama Devi of Manipur in July 2004 - allegedly by Indian armymen-- that they too are humans and can make mistakes and that Human Rights groups are stupid? Umesh -- Rini-ji wrote: The so called Human rights, countries Legal Aid system -- Liberal lawyers, all must be rubbing their hands in glee as they begin to sharpening their pens ready to dash off the writs. Firearms are tragically, part and parcel of modern criminal society and our policemen must be equipped to deal with them. They are patrolling London's streets today. Knowing they could be called on fire their weapons at any moment, hoping against hope their target is a terrorist and not an electrician. Rini Kakati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no doubt that this is an absolute tragedy. Have you made a mistake at work recently. I did. In fact I do it all the time, little judgements calls that go wrong. Spare a thought then for the policemen responsible for the shooting of Brazilian Electrician. But while most of us can walk away from our mistakes relatively unscathed, those involved now can expect to be charged, face loosing their jobs and even going to jail. But to me -- it is exactly this kind of nonsense that cannot be allowed to happen. The so called Human rights, countries Legal Aid system -- Liberal lawyers, all must be rubbing their hands in glee as they begin to sharpening their pens ready to dash off the writs. Firearms are tragically, part and parcel of modern criminal society and our policemen must be equipped to deal with them. They are patrolling London's streets today. Knowing they could be called on fire their weapons at any moment, hoping against hope their target is a terrorist and not an electrician. Of course the security services have to be accountable. But make no mistake, we are at war here. Not since the Second World War has London been under such sustained attack. Those loonies are still on the lose desperate to blow themselves up and take as many Londoners with them as possible. If any one of them come any where near me while I am at the tube or bus, I want to know that an armed policeman will not hesitate to shoot. I don't want images of internal inquires, sackings and courtrooms flashing through his mind. If we are to ask them to be responsible for our security we must be prepared to take the consequences, when things inevitably go wrong. Every politician in
Re: [Assam] Re: Truth?? police encounter shooting in UK metro - Manorama Devi
Ram-da, I think Indian amry did initiate an inquiry in Manorama Devi case after local outcry -- but I remember the Central Congress Ministers labelling it later - as a case where females became naked in public in Manipur and alleged that one of them was raped later. I do not know what is happening now about the inquiry. Umesh Ram-da wrote: In the Manoram case, did the jawans go scott-free? Was there a policyin the Indian Govt. that jawans are allowed to rape and pillage?Ram Sarangapani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umesh I wonder this support you extend to the army men deployed in North East India and Kashmir also. I realize that you being based at UK do feel strongly in support of British police -- and speak against the Human Rights groups. Do you also support the rape and killing of Manorama Devi of Manipur in July 2004 - allegedly by Indian armymen-- that they too are humans and can make mistakes and that Human Rights groups are stupid?This is not a logical question and totally unfair. Just becausesomeone supports the British cops does not mean they are giving tacitapproval to the attackers of Manorama.In the case of the British cops, the decision was to be made in a split second. A error in judgement can be made. I don't think that was the case inthe rape of Manorama. It was probably ! planned, and carried out byjawans who have such proclivities.They are apples oranges.RK and C'da have categorically said that this is a tradegy.London: The errant officers mau pay the price (thrown of the jobsetc), but the real culprit is the British policy of 'shoot-to-kill'and their sluething . Add to that the inexperience of the officers infirearms. The shoot-to-kill policy is defended on the grounds that asucide bomber would be carrying explosives on his chest/back, so thesuspect should be shot in the head. The Brazillian was shot 8 timesfrom reports (7 to his head, and 1 to the shoulder).--An overkill one could aptly say.Assam/Kashmir: Inspite of the horrors of Manorama Devi or otherattrocities, the Indian Govt. does not have a policy of'shoot-to-kill'. Moreover, Britain is supposedly a paragon ofstandards, efficiencies, Human rights and secularism. How do youcompare British inefficiencies wit! h Indian inefficiencies?IMHO, the officers did what was expected of them under thecircumstances - to follow guidelines. Just like Abu Graibh. In theend, the culprit is the faulty guideline, and not so much the officersfollowing them.In the Manoram case, did the jawans go scott-free? Was there a policyin the Indian Govt. that jawans are allowed to rape and pillage?--Ram daOn 7/26/05, umesh sharma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Rini-ji, I wonder this support you extend to the army men deployed in North East India and Kashmir also. I realize that you being based at UK do feel strongly in support of British police -- and speak against the Human Rights groups. Do you also support the rape and killing of Manorama Devi of Manipur in July 2004 - allegedly by Indian armymen-- that they too are humans and can make mistakes and that Human Rights groups ! are stupid? Umesh -- Rini-ji wrote: The so called Human rights, countries Legal Aid system -- Liberal lawyers, all must be rubbing their hands in glee as they begin to sharpening their pens ready to dash off the writs.Firearms are tragically, part and parcel of modern criminal society and our policemen must be equipped to deal with them. They are patrolling London's streets today. Knowing they could be called on fire their weapons at any moment, hoping against hope their target is a terrorist and not an electrician. Rini Kakati <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: There is no doubt that this is an absolute tragedy. Have you made a mistake at work recently. I did. In fact I do it all the time, little judgements calls that go wrong. Spare a thought then fo! r the policemen responsible for the shooting of Brazilian Electrician.But while most of us can walk away from our mistakes relatively unscathed, those involved now can expect to be charged, face loosing their jobs and even going to jail. But to me -- it is exactly this kind of nonsense that cannot be allowed to happen. The so called Human rights, countries Legal Aid system -- Liberal lawyers, all must be rubbing their hands in glee as they begin to sharpening their pens ready to dash off the writs.Firearms are tragically, part and parcel of modern criminal society and our policemen must be equipped to deal with them. They are patrolling London's streets today. Knowing they could be called on fire their weapons at any moment, hoping against hope their target is a terrorist and not an electrician.Of course the ! security services have to be accountable. But make no mistake, we are at war here. Not since the Second World War has London been under such sustained attack. Those loonies are still on the lose desperate to blow themselves up
