Re: [Asterisk-Dev] RFC: Moderating the Asterisk Mailing Lists
On January 7, 2005 05:42 am, Brian Wilkins wrote: If the project is ongoing, why are the docs on the www.asterisk.org website outdated? The Asterisk Handbook: Second Draft was last published in March, 2003! That's the problem -- the handbook isn't what I was referring to. http://www.asteriskdocs.org/ Last updated: 5 Jan 2005. I don't think the list is the problem, it's simple lack of good, solid documentation. Newbies will always have questions, but we can't blame them for asking when a lot of the information on the wiki is outdated, plus we don't even have a recent handbook published. Look at the mysql website (another open source project), they have loads of documentation and it is easily searchable. Agreed -- the trick is in the documentation and as I put it, yodelling it from the rooftops. :-) -A. ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
Re: [Asterisk-Dev] RFC: Moderating the Asterisk Mailing Lists
On January 7, 2005 10:51 am, Gregory Junker wrote: Thank you for pointing out exactly what is wrong (specifically, your attitude) with the majority of open-source projects. While I agree that Alex's attitude is poor that is actually part of the beauty of open source and why it makes people money. If you don't want to deal with primadonnas and socially awkward hackers, find yourself a consulting company to manage your asterisk installation. They possess the thick skin and ability to interact with the community; you'll get a stable asterisk installation. There are plenty of people here who possess tact and diplomacy. You seem to expect those qualities to be a requirement; they're not. -A. ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
Re: [Asterisk-Dev] Asterisk with MySQL
Sorry, this was wrongly sent on this list, please ignore it... On Friday 07 January 2005 20:48, you wrote: Hello I am getting this error message, when i try to authenticate my users through database. Jan 7 20:28:08 WARNING[26487]: res_config_odbc.c:69 realtime_odbc: SQL Alloc Handle failed! Jan 7 20:28:08 NOTICE[26487]: chan_sip.c:7974 handle_request: Registration from 'rizwan sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED]' failed for '192.168.0.149' My conf files are: ;res_odbc.conf [test] dsn = test username = root password = pre-connect = yes ;extensions.conf [test] switch = Realtime/@realtime_ext ;extconfig.conf sipfriends = odbc,test,sip_buddies realtime_ext = odbc,test,extensions_table Can you please help me, what to do here? Thanks ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
Re: [Asterisk-Dev] RFC: Moderating the Asterisk Mailing Lists
On Friday 07 January 2005 11:18 am, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: There are plenty of people here who possess tact and diplomacy. You seem to expect those qualities to be a requirement; they're not. Yep. It's very easy to get caught up with wishing things to be different or better. The whole movement of OpenSource is frequently showing how flexable it can be and the number of normally not eh... preferable ways, it proves wrong. With the cut of society we have, in Open Source, we are really a good example of how good people basically are. That it can function, even if it is not a complete life, just OpenSource. In other words its very successful inspite of those who wish to stop it, and it's lack of normal management. The urge to monitor the noise is a natural response to wanting to improve conditions of the list. I don't think it's a bad thing to want, or even pursue. The obvious trick lies in how to keep it a desireable action by 98% of the list. (I skipped those 2% as I know 2 out of evey 100 prefer to stop and ruin things for the remaining.) Nice friendly education works on everyone who is interested in the betterment of the product. Those who don't respond well on friendly education have other intentions than what they pretend to have. -- Steve Szmidt They that would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
Re: [Asterisk-Dev] RFC: Moderating the Asterisk Mailing Lists
On Friday 07 January 2005 11:12 am, Rich Adamson wrote: So the purpose should be clearly deliniated, and then an eval of how it is not being accomplished, or is being threatend can be done. The concern I have is that people are aware of and even if they disagree or are too lazy, they KNOW the rules of the list. Perhaps you are on to something. Maybe an actual moderation process isn't required, just a link which clearly lists the rules and regulations of the list. The link could be placed in the footer. So I think that ensuring their awareness of the list rules is the thing to pursue. I think ensuring the rules are in plain view to be read before subscribing and sending a message after subscribing of the rules is enough. Why moderate when one can automate? What if - each new list member is emailed a somewhat abbreviated list of do's and don'ts and references (to how-to, faq, wiki, etc) as the initial result of successfully subscribing. - automate the list server to send an email back to the poster if html is detected - and maybe some sort of automated reply to the first x postings from new subscribers again reminding them of available references, resources and examples. - a monthly reminder (like many many other lists) to all list members as to how to unsubscribe, new references, etc. Just a thought I think this is a good supplement to the list. It should probably be part of most lists out there. One trick to get it read is to include some sort of update. Maybe a summary of the last months changes in CVS. That would get my attention... and be well worth knowing. -- Steve Szmidt They that would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
Re: [Asterisk-Dev] RFC: Moderating the Asterisk Mailing Lists
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: On January 7, 2005 10:51 am, Gregory Junker wrote: Thank you for pointing out exactly what is wrong (specifically, your attitude) with the majority of open-source projects. While I agree that Alex's attitude is poor that is actually part of the beauty of open source and why it makes people money. If you don't want to deal with primadonnas and socially awkward hackers, find yourself a consulting company to manage your asterisk installation. They possess the thick skin and ability to interact with the community; you'll get a stable asterisk installation. Precisely. I'm very very very much nicer to people who pay me money. That is, consulting clients or hosting customers. If you want free advice, you might get it, just don't expect me to be nice. :) I think that's true of a lot of Asterisk developer/volunteers. -alex ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
Re: [Asterisk-Dev] RFC: Moderating the Asterisk Mailing Lists
There are plenty of people here who possess tact and diplomacy. You seem to expect those qualities to be a requirement; they're not. They are a requirement for any open-source project to reach its full potential. Nothing turns off a newbie to a project faster than a smartass or hostile response to what they believe is a valid question. Should those questions be in the -dev list? No, but the response tone I am talking about occurs mostly in the -users list, and the perpetrators know who they are. That said, if the doc project is more useful than the Wiki, then perhaps the Wiki should be phased out as the doc project matures, and the standard reply point the user to a more useful source of information. It all comes down to one simple fact: open-source projects far and away are started and managed by engineers, who have demonstrated time and again throughout history, and continue to do so today, why they are not allowed to interact with the user community. Engineers don't like users, they really don't. Engineers believe that users just get in the way. I can say this because I am an engineer, an electrical and software engineer, but I have the unique ability among my kind to see the software system from a usability viewpoint, which many engineers simply do not realize exists. Asterisk is a HORRIBLY designed project from a usability standpoint. Asterisk is an FANTASTICALLY designed project from a technical standpoint. Remember, Windows is not as dominant as it is because it's technically superior (it is and it isn't). It's dominant because it is EASY TO USE. So if you want the project to remain within the community of technical users only, by all means continue to berate the new users for asking basic questions. Greg ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
Re: [Asterisk-Dev] RFC: Moderating the Asterisk Mailing Lists
Brian Wilkins wrote: I grew up thinking that no question is stupid or dumb. If someone has to respond to the message with, Read the wiki, here's the link then so be it. Everyone encourages users to search the lists archives dilligently, but sometimes after an hour of searching it proves futile because you either didn't type in the right keyword. That's where the list comes in. Moderating the list too much will scare people away. I believe it is doing well in self-moderation and that no one's time should be wasted as a message monkey scanning messages all the time. At best, we could automate it to an extent. *snipped no question is stupid or dumb. the problem is that when people are lazy (or haven't learned how to search yet), they repeat the same question... over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (bit annoying isn't it). so some people, granted with lessened tact, attempt to let some know they must first learn the basics. (how to help *yourself*) normally i wouldn't respond to something like this, but it is friday and i just plain don't give a what half of you think. ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
Re: [Asterisk-Dev] RFC: Moderating the Asterisk Mailing Lists
Precisely. I'm very very very much nicer to people who pay me money. That is, consulting clients or hosting customers. If you want free advice, you might get it, just don't expect me to be nice. :) Then expect to lose a potential client due to inadequate people skills. You never know who is on the other side of that keyboard, nor who they may or may not talk to. I think that's true of a lot of Asterisk developer/volunteers. Actually, the main Asterisk developer I have found to follow what his Mom told him growing up. I do not recall Mark Spencer ever laying into a newcomer to Asterisk for asking a basic question. Might have something to do with Mark understanding that the mic is always on, know what I mean? I guess my point is that a lot of you need to get over yourselves. Follow Mark's model: if you are not interested in answering someone's question in a courteous manner, then simply don't. DTFG and RTFM and non-directed pointers to arbitrary Wiki pages (or even worse, to the Wiki home page), and especially, read the f***ing source code, do not fall under courteous reply. Of course, to the rest of the world, this is just common sense. Greg ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
Re: [Asterisk-Dev] RFC: Moderating the Asterisk Mailing Lists
My point exactly. The wiki is just too cumbersome, and I would never expect anyone trying to learn a piece of software to go look at the source code. (Ref Lief Madsen's Email) That is just silly. When was the last time anyone looked at the source to install Windows XP or any piece of software? Give me a break. Keep it stupid simple. When this project gets more organized and better documentation, I'll change my view. But from a user's standpoint, it is very cumbersome. I am simply echoing the views of many of whom have stated the same frustrations. I know many people who are avid programmers and forget simple syntactical things from time to time. That's why you'll see on various forums the same question over and over. On the same token, if we provide all the documentation in the world and broadcast it everywhere so people can see, and they still don't get it - then they are fair game. I dont think we should bust someone's balls for lack of searching. Who really knows how hard they searched? Why not include a link referring to the wiki or asteriskdocs in the footer of each message? I'd rather encourage people to ask then be afraid of being berrated with emails for not properly searching, or search the wiki answers. On Friday 07 January 2005 05:50 pm, Richard Lyman wrote: *snipped no question is stupid or dumb. the problem is that when people are lazy (or haven't learned how to search yet), they repeat the same question... over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (bit annoying isn't it). so some people, granted with lessened tact, attempt to let some know they must first learn the basics. (how to help *yourself*) normally i wouldn't respond to something like this, but it is friday and i just plain don't give a what half of you think. ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev -- Brian Wilkins Software Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Heritage Communications Corporation Melbourne, FL USA 32935 321.308.4000 x33 http://www.hcc.net ___ Asterisk-Dev mailing list Asterisk-Dev@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
