Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database? (late reply)

[John Todd]

At 11:57 AM -0800 2007/2/21, Brad Templeton wrote:


On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:08:15PM -0700, Natambu Obleton wrote:

 Why not make it like DNS and have each provider have their lookups
 deligated to a local server and then each ISP will run a caching
 server that will use a serial number system to get updates.. just like
 DNS.

 I know there are lot more DNS lookups then CNAM lookups per hour...
 isn't there? :)



Hey, we could even build a system where DNS can be used to take any
phone number and look up data about it, not just a name, but even
a URI to redirect calls to for it, a source of presence info and
more.

What a great idea!   Unfortunately, since phone numbers are
believed to be owned by telcos and not by individuals, such
a system would probably make the mistake of delegating control
over the numbers to the telcos, who would feel no particular
motive to help people bypass what they sell, and so I predict
it will languish for a long time with no real deployment in the
USA.

:-)


Yeah, late reply here.

If ENUM were viable, this concept already exists for the most part, 
at least in draft form:


 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-enum-cnam-05.txt

However, I don't believe for a second (though I did years ago) that 
ENUM will ever leave the control of the carriers, as you also 
insinuate.  I'm singing to the choir, though, since you already have 
a Freenum/ISN dialing method (http://www.freenum.org/) for your 
organization, Brad.  Encouragingly, the ISN dialing method does scale 
quite well for the CNAM-type data to be put in the DNS with the CNAM 
extension draft referenced above, unlike E.164 which is more 
cumbersome, to say the least.


In other news:  I'm looking for an inexpensive CNAM provider via 
HTTP.  Low volume at first, but probably ramping up a bit over time 
to a few thousand lookups a day.  Anyone out there providing this 
service with a "low friction" business model?


JT



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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Brad Templeton]

On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:08:15PM -0700, Natambu Obleton wrote:
> Why not make it like DNS and have each provider have their lookups
> deligated to a local server and then each ISP will run a caching
> server that will use a serial number system to get updates.. just like
> DNS.
> 
> I know there are lot more DNS lookups then CNAM lookups per hour...
> isn't there? :)
> 

Hey, we could even build a system where DNS can be used to take any
phone number and look up data about it, not just a name, but even
a URI to redirect calls to for it, a source of presence info and
more.

What a great idea!   Unfortunately, since phone numbers are
believed to be owned by telcos and not by individuals, such
a system would probably make the mistake of delegating control
over the numbers to the telcos, who would feel no particular
motive to help people bypass what they sell, and so I predict
it will languish for a long time with no real deployment in the
USA.

:-)
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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Richard Lyman]

Joe Greco wrote:

TP'n to follow flow

just like DNS, the 'root servers' would still see the high request hits, 
prior to passing off to local caching app.


and *someone* must have this expense/headache to maintain them.



No, the root servers wouldn't.  Please take a few moments to learn how
the domain name system works prior to spreading fear, uncertainty, and
doubt.

Any decent DNS server is extremely good at caching lookup responses, and
as such, once it looks up the NS records for a domain, the roots and
parents will not see a significant increase in requests.

... JG
  
gee joe, what part of 'prior to passing off to local caching app', and 
millions of requests didn't you get?
(also note, i understood they were wanting to build a new system, not 
use dns, as it was *only* the example)


everytime you make a dns request, i agreed that it does not hit the root 
servers, but every time you request a NON-cached one you DO.


so maybe your call center calls the same people every other day.  

ours do not, and i'm just guessing here, but i have to think that others 
here don't call the same people over and over and over millions of times 
within minutes/hours/days. 


yeah, you are right, i have no clue what i am talking about.

don't you just hate when someone puts and apple in with the oranges, 
especially a rotten one. 



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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Joe Greco]

> TP'n to follow flow
> 
> just like DNS, the 'root servers' would still see the high request hits, 
> prior to passing off to local caching app.
> 
> and *someone* must have this expense/headache to maintain them.

No, the root servers wouldn't.  Please take a few moments to learn how
the domain name system works prior to spreading fear, uncertainty, and
doubt.

Any decent DNS server is extremely good at caching lookup responses, and
as such, once it looks up the NS records for a domain, the roots and
parents will not see a significant increase in requests.

... JG
-- 
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I
won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN)
With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.
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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Richard Lyman]

TP'n to follow flow

just like DNS, the 'root servers' would still see the high request hits, 
prior to passing off to local caching app.


and *someone* must have this expense/headache to maintain them.

Natambu Obleton wrote:

Why not make it like DNS and have each provider have their lookups
deligated to a local server and then each ISP will run a caching
server that will use a serial number system to get updates.. just like
DNS.

I know there are lot more DNS lookups then CNAM lookups per hour...
isn't there? :)

On 2/20/07, Mike Lynchfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
With all other things said.. you might want a professional service 
for this

like  targusinfo.com

Maintaining and running an operation like a cname web lookup thing is 
REALLY

high overhead in terms of web traffic etc

What happens when you get 30 ITSP/clients pulling 1000 calls each or 
10

calls each per day..

that can easily go up to 1 mill requests per day ,

How will you pay for the bandwith/hardware/failover/load balance etc
hardware for all this ?

or if you are going to charge then why reinvent the wheel.

targusinfo.com is what we would use..

Cname lookup is a really controversial matter , no one wants to 
absorb the
costs , that is why some TELCOS charge 4.95  for callerid ( its 
basically

the lookup service they are paying for) ..

*snipped

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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Natambu Obleton]

Why not make it like DNS and have each provider have their lookups
deligated to a local server and then each ISP will run a caching
server that will use a serial number system to get updates.. just like
DNS.

I know there are lot more DNS lookups then CNAM lookups per hour...
isn't there? :)

On 2/20/07, Mike Lynchfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

With all other things said.. you might want a professional service for this
like  targusinfo.com

Maintaining and running an operation like a cname web lookup thing is REALLY
high overhead in terms of web traffic etc

What happens when you get 30 ITSP/clients pulling 1000 calls each or 10
calls each per day..

that can easily go up to 1 mill requests per day ,

How will you pay for the bandwith/hardware/failover/load balance etc
hardware for all this ?

or if you are going to charge then why reinvent the wheel.

targusinfo.com is what we would use..

Cname lookup is a really controversial matter , no one wants to absorb the
costs , that is why some TELCOS charge 4.95  for callerid ( its basically
the lookup service they are paying for) ..

CNAME lookups is also not mandatory for TELCOS so some do it some don't ,
but FREE cname is just not going to happen untill some one has a Return on
Investment strategy for this..


Take a look at Free 800 systems that went down , Any venture needs a capital
source of income..

my 0.02



On 2/20/07, Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey Guys,
> I'm glad to see this ignited some discussion.
>
> I definitely understand there's some legal implications involved, both on
a privacy level, and fraud prevention. Obviously an end-user (ie: the person
controlling a listing) has to consent to some sort of release resolving the
privacy concerns. I'm somewhat aware of the legal implications involved with
storing such personally identifiable information (or whatever the legal term
is) and have a concern in making sure such issues are resolved.
>
> In reality, how is it efficient for every provider to be running their own
database? In my mind, this leaves the horribly evident inaccuracies, and
even efficiency issues. Thank God these accuracies aren't integral to the
operations of telephony systems.
>
>
>
> I do understand there is a price to pay for such infrastructure, and I
believe that it's obvious the telephony world is riddled with racketeering,
price gouging ventures, including companies that charge nearly a $0.01 for a
lookup. I realize the following analogy is poor, but in mind this is as
close as a internet search engine charging for a basic search query. Infact
a basic internet query is much more complex, much more costly (ie: the
infrastructure of said systems), and yet self-subsidizing.
>
>
> And to the poster who suggested that I was implying scrapping the results
from 411.com, this is definitely not even a remote idea in my mind at all.
The basis for my idea was a open, moderated, database that was user
controlled and self-subsidized.
>
>
>
> I know this is way off topic, but I really feel that the telecom industry
as a whole, and I'm sure I'm not the only one with this belief, is horribly
bloated, running on business models that are clearly 30 years outdated. It
is 2007, and with the help of the internet, the exchange of information,
these telcos now have real, global competition, and real issues to deal
with.
>
> Anyways guys, I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Robert Norton
> SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
> Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
> P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
> http://www.XStreamHost.com - Web Hosting
> http://www.SophMedia.com - Consulting & Web Development
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> NOTICE:
> This e-mail (including all attachments) may contain confidential and
privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). You, the
recipient, are obligated to maintain it in the safe, secure, and
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by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or
authorized to receive for the recipient), please notify the sender by reply
e-mail and delete, or destroy all copies of this message immediately.
>
>
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>
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>



--
Mike
Sales Manager
http://www.voicemeup.com
Making it happen
1.877.807.VOIP (8647)
1.514.312.7030
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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Mike Lynchfield]

With all other things said.. you might want a professional service for this
like  targusinfo.com

Maintaining and running an operation like a cname web lookup thing is REALLY
high overhead in terms of web traffic etc

What happens when you get 30 ITSP/clients pulling 1000 calls each or 10
calls each per day..

that can easily go up to 1 mill requests per day ,

How will you pay for the bandwith/hardware/failover/load balance etc
hardware for all this ?

or if you are going to charge then why reinvent the wheel.

targusinfo.com is what we would use..

Cname lookup is a really controversial matter , no one wants to absorb the
costs , that is why some TELCOS charge 4.95  for callerid ( its basically
the lookup service they are paying for) ..

CNAME lookups is also not mandatory for TELCOS so some do it some don't ,
but FREE cname is just not going to happen untill some one has a Return on
Investment strategy for this..


Take a look at Free 800 systems that went down , Any venture needs a capital
source of income..

my 0.02


On 2/20/07, Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Hey Guys,
I'm glad to see this ignited some discussion.

I definitely understand there's some legal implications involved, both on
a privacy level, and fraud prevention. Obviously an end-user (ie: the person
controlling a listing) has to consent to some sort of release resolving the
privacy concerns. I'm somewhat aware of the legal implications involved with
storing such personally identifiable information (or whatever the legal term
is) and have a concern in making sure such issues are resolved.

In reality, how is it efficient for every provider to be running their own
database? In my mind, this leaves the horribly evident inaccuracies, and
even efficiency issues. Thank God these accuracies aren't integral to the
operations of telephony systems.

 I do understand there is a price to pay for such infrastructure, and I
believe that it's obvious the telephony world is riddled with racketeering,
price gouging ventures, including companies that charge nearly a $0.01 for a
lookup. I realize the following analogy is poor, but in mind this is as
close as a internet search engine charging for a basic search query. Infact
a basic internet query is much more complex, much more costly (ie: the
infrastructure of said systems), and yet self-subsidizing.


And to the poster who suggested that I was implying scrapping the results
from 411.com, this is definitely not even a remote idea in my mind at all.
The basis for my idea was a open, moderated, database that was user
controlled and self-subsidized.

 I know this is way off topic, but I really feel that the telecom industry
as a whole, and I'm sure I'm not the only one with this belief, is horribly
bloated, running on business models that are clearly 30 years outdated. It
is 2007, and with the help of the internet, the exchange of information,
these telcos now have real, global competition, and real issues to deal
with.

Anyways guys, I'm curious to hear your thoughts.



--
Robert Norton
SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
http://www.XStreamHost.com - Web Hosting
http://www.SophMedia.com - Consulting & Web Development



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--
Mike
Sales Manager
http://www.voicemeup.com
Making it happen
1.877.807.VOIP (8647)
1.514.312.7030
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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC]

Hey Guys,
I'm glad to see this ignited some discussion.

I definitely understand there's some legal implications involved, both on a
privacy level, and fraud prevention. Obviously an end-user (ie: the person
controlling a listing) has to consent to some sort of release resolving the
privacy concerns. I'm somewhat aware of the legal implications involved with
storing such personally identifiable information (or whatever the legal term
is) and have a concern in making sure such issues are resolved.

In reality, how is it efficient for every provider to be running their own
database? In my mind, this leaves the horribly evident inaccuracies, and
even efficiency issues. Thank God these accuracies aren't integral to the
operations of telephony systems.



I do understand there is a price to pay for such infrastructure, and I
believe that it's obvious the telephony world is riddled with racketeering,
price gouging ventures, including companies that charge nearly a $0.01 for a
lookup. I realize the following analogy is poor, but in mind this is as
close as a internet search engine charging for a basic search query. Infact
a basic internet query is much more complex, much more costly (ie: the
infrastructure of said systems), and yet self-subsidizing.


And to the poster who suggested that I was implying scrapping the results
from 411.com, this is definitely not even a remote idea in my mind at all.
The basis for my idea was a open, moderated, database that was user
controlled and self-subsidized. 



I know this is way off topic, but I really feel that the telecom industry as
a whole, and I'm sure I'm not the only one with this belief, is horribly
bloated, running on business models that are clearly 30 years outdated. It
is 2007, and with the help of the internet, the exchange of information,
these telcos now have real, global competition, and real issues to deal
with.

Anyways guys, I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

 

--
Robert Norton
SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
http://www.XStreamHost.com - Web Hosting
http://www.SophMedia.com - Consulting & Web Development

 

--
NOTICE:
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privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). You, the
recipient, are obligated to maintain it in the safe, secure, and
confidential manner. Any review, use, distribution, disclosure, or copying
by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or
authorized to receive for the recipient), please notify the sender by reply
e-mail and delete, or destroy all copies of this message immediately.

 




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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Brad Templeton]

On Mon, Feb 19, 2007 at 09:02:56PM -0500, C F wrote:
> I doubt it's CNAM since it has old an outdated listings.
> 
> On 2/19/07, Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Does google really have the true CNAM database? When I enter my number,
> >I get a search result for my business listing at yellowpages.com
> >
> >Are you referring to something available in a google area other than the
> >search engine?

Well, at one time Google got a large telno to name database.  I don't know if
they have updated it.  They can certainly afford to.  There are other web sites
that do reverse number lookups as well.

Still, starting with their database seems a good choice.  They might not
like you scraping it at once but a thousand * boxes pulling records one call
at a time is not something they are going to be bothered by.

If this, combined with other info from other sources (including contributions
from people who have CNAM) builds a workable database, you will eventually
get the LECs contributing their data to it.   People want their name to show
up correctly.  If millions start using a database, the LECs will want their
data in it, especially if entry is free or near free for bulk entries.


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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[C F]

My better guess is, that since Google is a web search engine all their
results are based on web gatherings, which is where Google is taking
the number resluts from.

On 2/19/07, Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Does google really have the true CNAM database? When I enter my number,
I get a search result for my business listing at yellowpages.com

Are you referring to something available in a google area other than the
search engine?

Brad Templeton wrote:

>On Mon, Feb 19, 2007 at 03:01:50PM -0500, Paul wrote:
>
>
>>I think terms of service for most CNAM providers prohibits sharing the
>>data and limits the amount of time it can be cached for your own reuse.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I don't know why they manage to get this level of control over the cnam 
database
>so that they can charge a penny per lookup as well as monthly fees.  Does
>anybody know how this happens?
>
>Clearly some people buy the database at a good price.  Google for example
>has it, and there are asterisk hacks to do google lookup (if you query a
>10 digit phone number in google, you'll get not just name but address etc.)
>
>Perhaps they are just paying.
>
>
>One way to build a free database would be to simply have people share the
>results of all sorts of searches.   People who pay for CNAM as end users,
>for example, have signed no contract to not share the data.  So they could,
>if trusted, forward those records to be stored in the shared database.
>People who don't could take any number they get, and if it's not in the
>shared database already, do a google query, and if that gives a result, store
>that in the shared database.  (Also store negative results with a timestamp
>so that you know that the google lookup provides no info.)
>
>
>http://www.google.com/search?q=nn&pb=r
>
>Eventually you would get a pretty good database, perhaps one big enough
>that CLECs start wanting to update it directly?
>
>Now there may still need to be something to pay for all of this, but
>the fees could be much lower.   Charge fees for the latest copy or real
>time query but just have the regular database out there for download
>and local lookup.
>
>Or perhaps just use the google api?
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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[C F]

I doubt it's CNAM since it has old an outdated listings.

On 2/19/07, Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Does google really have the true CNAM database? When I enter my number,
I get a search result for my business listing at yellowpages.com

Are you referring to something available in a google area other than the
search engine?

Brad Templeton wrote:

>On Mon, Feb 19, 2007 at 03:01:50PM -0500, Paul wrote:
>
>
>>I think terms of service for most CNAM providers prohibits sharing the
>>data and limits the amount of time it can be cached for your own reuse.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I don't know why they manage to get this level of control over the cnam 
database
>so that they can charge a penny per lookup as well as monthly fees.  Does
>anybody know how this happens?
>
>Clearly some people buy the database at a good price.  Google for example
>has it, and there are asterisk hacks to do google lookup (if you query a
>10 digit phone number in google, you'll get not just name but address etc.)
>
>Perhaps they are just paying.
>
>
>One way to build a free database would be to simply have people share the
>results of all sorts of searches.   People who pay for CNAM as end users,
>for example, have signed no contract to not share the data.  So they could,
>if trusted, forward those records to be stored in the shared database.
>People who don't could take any number they get, and if it's not in the
>shared database already, do a google query, and if that gives a result, store
>that in the shared database.  (Also store negative results with a timestamp
>so that you know that the google lookup provides no info.)
>
>
>http://www.google.com/search?q=nn&pb=r
>
>Eventually you would get a pretty good database, perhaps one big enough
>that CLECs start wanting to update it directly?
>
>Now there may still need to be something to pay for all of this, but
>the fees could be much lower.   Charge fees for the latest copy or real
>time query but just have the regular database out there for download
>and local lookup.
>
>Or perhaps just use the google api?
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>

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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Paul]

Does google really have the true CNAM database? When I enter my number,
I get a search result for my business listing at yellowpages.com

Are you referring to something available in a google area other than the
search engine?

Brad Templeton wrote:

>On Mon, Feb 19, 2007 at 03:01:50PM -0500, Paul wrote:
>  
>
>>I think terms of service for most CNAM providers prohibits sharing the
>>data and limits the amount of time it can be cached for your own reuse.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I don't know why they manage to get this level of control over the cnam 
>database
>so that they can charge a penny per lookup as well as monthly fees.  Does
>anybody know how this happens?
>
>Clearly some people buy the database at a good price.  Google for example
>has it, and there are asterisk hacks to do google lookup (if you query a
>10 digit phone number in google, you'll get not just name but address etc.)
>
>Perhaps they are just paying.
>
>
>One way to build a free database would be to simply have people share the
>results of all sorts of searches.   People who pay for CNAM as end users,
>for example, have signed no contract to not share the data.  So they could,
>if trusted, forward those records to be stored in the shared database.
>People who don't could take any number they get, and if it's not in the
>shared database already, do a google query, and if that gives a result, store
>that in the shared database.  (Also store negative results with a timestamp
>so that you know that the google lookup provides no info.)
>
>
>http://www.google.com/search?q=nn&pb=r
>
>Eventually you would get a pretty good database, perhaps one big enough
>that CLECs start wanting to update it directly?
>
>Now there may still need to be something to pay for all of this, but
>the fees could be much lower.   Charge fees for the latest copy or real
>time query but just have the regular database out there for download
>and local lookup.
>
>Or perhaps just use the google api?
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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Paul]

C F, your method is technically feasible. I thought of it over a year
ago but never posted it because it would definitely be considered an
abuse by most providers. If a lot of people start using it, I expect we
would start seeing TOS for PSTN and voip alike to start changing. Of
course the best thing that could happen is for CNAM database access
costs to become a lot more reasonable. My pots line is with a small
rural ILEC who depends on verisign for CNAM matters. My guess is that
they pay a high rate and a large number of unanswered calls from
different numbers would be noticed. I get the impression that the CNAM
system has an air of gangsterism and racketeering about it.

C F wrote:

> First my two cents. I dont think creating a system to store the info
> is a good idea mostly because of the reasons mentioned in this thread.
> An easy way to do free CNAM lookup, keep one pots line around with
> caller id service on it for each non cached number that comes in make
> a phone call to the pots line with caller id set to the number of the
> unknown name, the caller id service on the pots line should reveal the
> name after the first ring. cache that and reuse it as needed.
>
> On 2/19/07, Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Hey Guys,
>> I'm curious if there's an interest in a free, CallerID database? For
>> those
>> of you in the same spot we are, our current provider only provides us
>> with
>> the CND, excluding CNAM.
>>
>> Would creating a public database, managed by users be worthwhile to
>> anyone?
>>
>> Thanks - Any input is greatly appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Robert Norton
>> SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
>> Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
>> P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
>> http://www.XStreamHost.com - Web Hosting
>> http://www.SophMedia.com - Consulting & Web Development
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> NOTICE:
>> This e-mail (including all attachments) may contain confidential and
>> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s).
>> You, the
>> recipient, are obligated to maintain it in the safe, secure, and
>> confidential manner. Any review, use, distribution, disclosure, or
>> copying
>> by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
>> recipient (or
>> authorized to receive for the recipient), please notify the sender by
>> reply
>> e-mail and delete, or destroy all copies of this message immediately.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[C F]

First my two cents. I dont think creating a system to store the info
is a good idea mostly because of the reasons mentioned in this thread.
An easy way to do free CNAM lookup, keep one pots line around with
caller id service on it for each non cached number that comes in make
a phone call to the pots line with caller id set to the number of the
unknown name, the caller id service on the pots line should reveal the
name after the first ring. cache that and reuse it as needed.

On 2/19/07, Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hey Guys,
I'm curious if there's an interest in a free, CallerID database? For those
of you in the same spot we are, our current provider only provides us with
the CND, excluding CNAM.

Would creating a public database, managed by users be worthwhile to anyone?

Thanks - Any input is greatly appreciated.



--
Robert Norton
SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
http://www.XStreamHost.com - Web Hosting
http://www.SophMedia.com - Consulting & Web Development



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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Brad Templeton]

On Mon, Feb 19, 2007 at 03:01:50PM -0500, Paul wrote:
> I think terms of service for most CNAM providers prohibits sharing the
> data and limits the amount of time it can be cached for your own reuse.
> 

I don't know why they manage to get this level of control over the cnam database
so that they can charge a penny per lookup as well as monthly fees.  Does
anybody know how this happens?

Clearly some people buy the database at a good price.  Google for example
has it, and there are asterisk hacks to do google lookup (if you query a
10 digit phone number in google, you'll get not just name but address etc.)

Perhaps they are just paying.


One way to build a free database would be to simply have people share the
results of all sorts of searches.   People who pay for CNAM as end users,
for example, have signed no contract to not share the data.  So they could,
if trusted, forward those records to be stored in the shared database.
People who don't could take any number they get, and if it's not in the
shared database already, do a google query, and if that gives a result, store
that in the shared database.  (Also store negative results with a timestamp
so that you know that the google lookup provides no info.)


http://www.google.com/search?q=nn&pb=r

Eventually you would get a pretty good database, perhaps one big enough
that CLECs start wanting to update it directly?

Now there may still need to be something to pay for all of this, but
the fees could be much lower.   Charge fees for the latest copy or real
time query but just have the regular database out there for download
and local lookup.

Or perhaps just use the google api?
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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Paul]

At least the current system involves some qualification(CLEC status) and
some policing(regulators can revoke CLEC status). Why create a system
where setting your CNAM requires about as much validation as registering
a domain name? You need to consider that most of the free data from
sources like 411.com can't be legally used in such a database, even for
verification purposes. Read all the fine print before you get too excited.

I will agree that the traditional system is not flawless. For example,
the ILEC did not check my articles of incorporation to see if the
business name was valid. However, scammers who go so far as to rent
space and install business phone service are a lot easier to trace than
those who buy a SIP DID using a prepaid Visa gift card.

David Gomillion wrote:

> On 2/19/07, *Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>
> Hey Guys,
> I'm curious if there's an interest in a free, CallerID database?
> For those of you in the same spot we are, our current provider
> only provides us with the CND, excluding CNAM.
>
> YES!
>  
>
> Would creating a public database, managed by users be worthwhile
> to anyone?
>
> I'm not sure the technical issues will be as easy to work out as one
> would hope. When creating such a system, care must be taken to keep
> the information accurate and up-to-date. And where would you get the
> information from in the first place?
>  
>
> Thanks – Any input is greatly appreciated.
>
> What I would like to see is a distributed system that allows for
> updates to be rsync'd in, so that those of us who keep our servers off
> the Internet can move it through a QA process and then push the update
> through. Some type of a mirror system, where the packages can be
> updated from time to time (like daily).
>  
>
>  
>
> --
> Robert Norton
> SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
> Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
> P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
> http://www.XStreamHost.com  - Web Hosting
> http://www.SophMedia.com  - Consulting
> & Web Development
>
>  
>
> --
> NOTICE:
> This e-mail (including all attachments) may contain confidential
> and privileged material for the sole use of the intended
> recipient(s). You, the recipient, are obligated to maintain it in
> the safe, secure, and confidential manner. Any review, use,
> distribution, disclosure, or copying by others is strictly
> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized
> to receive for the recipient), please notify the sender by reply
> e-mail and delete, or destroy all copies of this message immediately.
>
>  
>
>
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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Rob Schall]

It seems like an interesting idea, but if this would be a public user
updated 411, who would ensure that was more up to date than 411. If the
numbers are off from 411, then the phone provider isn't keeping the
records properly. A customer should be notifying the phone company when
they are moving, etc, so when people want to find their business via
411, it should resolve correctly. If a customer does make that change,
unless they, or another user who knows of their change, updates the
public user run DB, then it will be outdated in no time.

Seems like you would want some type of hybrid. Have a weekly check of
all the submitted numbers and look for any changes in 411. If that
updates, then the user's information would be updated, and the person
who submitted it would be contacted. Although I still think 411 would
remain more up to date, it probably would be better than just relying on
a group of users to keep businesses information up to date.

Rob


Anselm Martin Hoffmeister wrote:
> Am Montag, den 19.02.2007, 12:39 -0700 schrieb Robert Norton - SophMedia
> LLC:
>   
>> Hey Guys,
>> I’m curious if there’s an interest in a free, CallerID database? For
>> those of you in the same spot we are, our current provider only
>> provides us with the CND, excluding CNAM. 
>>
>> Would creating a public database, managed by users be worthwhile to
>> anyone?
>> 
>
> Sounds like a great thing to have, but I doubt this is possible without
> violating existing laws. At least in Europe there are some quite
> restricting rules concerning the storage and transmission of
> people-related data. Without explicit permission you might not be
> allowed to transmit people's "unlisted" phone numbers, for example.
>
> Take care,
>
> An(not a lawyer)selm
>
>
>
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RE: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Rick Smith]

You MUST account for fraud, as well.
 
Perhaps proving you own the number, as in the LNP process, by providing the
cover page of the bill...

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
Gomillion
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 3:02 PM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?


On 2/19/07, Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hey Guys,
I'm curious if there's an interest in a free, CallerID database? For those
of you in the same spot we are, our current provider only provides us with
the CND, excluding CNAM. 

YES!
 


Would creating a public database, managed by users be worthwhile to anyone?

I'm not sure the technical issues will be as easy to work out as one would
hope. When creating such a system, care must be taken to keep the
information accurate and up-to-date. And where would you get the information
from in the first place? 
 


Thanks - Any input is greatly appreciated.

What I would like to see is a distributed system that allows for updates to
be rsync'd in, so that those of us who keep our servers off the Internet can
move it through a QA process and then push the update through. Some type of
a mirror system, where the packages can be updated from time to time (like
daily). 
 

 

--
Robert Norton
SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
http://www.XStreamHost.com <http://www.xstreamhost.com/>  - Web Hosting
http://www.SophMedia.com <http://www.sophmedia.com/>  - Consulting & Web
Development

 

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authorized to receive for the recipient), please notify the sender by reply
e-mail and delete, or destroy all copies of this message immediately. 

 


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RE: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Shane Young]

Our CNAM provider claims to have more than 196 million entries.  I  
just don't think you could reliably maintain that in this format.


Let's say I'm a CLEC and I have 40,000 numbers.  I want to update that  
in one place (my SCP, probably).  I wouldn't also want to update  
another database through another method.






Quoting Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Hey Shane,
The basis of my idea was that it would be user-moderated/generated. A
'owner/operator' of a number, would submit & verify their phone number,
enter their caller id, and basically be done with it. The logistics of it I
don't really think would be that complicated. If a listing needs to be
updated they basically go through the same process.

Right now, we're using a commonly available script (I can't remember the
link off hand) that uses Google, 411.com, etc, to do a lookup and although
it works pretty good, it is horribly inaccurate the majority of the time.

--
Robert Norton
SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
http://www.XStreamHost.com - Web Hosting
http://www.SophMedia.com - Consulting & Web Development

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e-mail and delete, or destroy all copies of this message immediately.
-Original Message-
From: Shane Young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 12:46 PM
To: Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

Robert

On the surface, I don't see how you could a db with a very good hit
rate without paying for the data.

There are thousands and thousdands of database updates every day.

Perhaps I am missing your intent here.




Quoting Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Hey Guys,
I'm curious if there's an interest in a free, CallerID database? For those
of you in the same spot we are, our current provider only provides us with
the CND, excluding CNAM.

Would creating a public database, managed by users be worthwhile to

anyone?


Thanks - Any input is greatly appreciated.



--
Robert Norton
SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
http://www.XStreamHost.com - Web Hosting
http://www.SophMedia.com - Consulting & Web Development



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the

recipient, are obligated to maintain it in the safe, secure, and
confidential manner. Any review, use, distribution, disclosure, or copying
by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient

(or

authorized to receive for the recipient), please notify the sender by

reply

e-mail and delete, or destroy all copies of this message immediately.









--Shane









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--Shane


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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Anselm Martin Hoffmeister]

Am Montag, den 19.02.2007, 12:39 -0700 schrieb Robert Norton - SophMedia
LLC:
> Hey Guys,
> I’m curious if there’s an interest in a free, CallerID database? For
> those of you in the same spot we are, our current provider only
> provides us with the CND, excluding CNAM. 
> 
> Would creating a public database, managed by users be worthwhile to
> anyone?

Sounds like a great thing to have, but I doubt this is possible without
violating existing laws. At least in Europe there are some quite
restricting rules concerning the storage and transmission of
people-related data. Without explicit permission you might not be
allowed to transmit people's "unlisted" phone numbers, for example.

Take care,

An(not a lawyer)selm



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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[David Gomillion]

On 2/19/07, Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Hey Guys,
I'm curious if there's an interest in a free, CallerID database? For those
of you in the same spot we are, our current provider only provides us with
the CND, excluding CNAM.


YES!


 Would creating a public database, managed by users be worthwhile to

anyone?


I'm not sure the technical issues will be as easy to work out as one would
hope. When creating such a system, care must be taken to keep the
information accurate and up-to-date. And where would you get the information
from in the first place?


 Thanks – Any input is greatly appreciated.



What I would like to see is a distributed system that allows for updates to
be rsync'd in, so that those of us who keep our servers off the Internet can
move it through a QA process and then push the update through. Some type of
a mirror system, where the packages can be updated from time to time (like
daily).





--
Robert Norton
SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
http://www.XStreamHost.com  - Web Hosting
http://www.SophMedia.com  - Consulting & Web
Development



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Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Paul]

I think terms of service for most CNAM providers prohibits sharing the
data and limits the amount of time it can be cached for your own reuse.

A public database managed by users would be of little value unless there
are means to verify the data. If people trusted it, outbound
telemarketers might try to put "friendly" CNAM values in.

Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC wrote:

> Hey Guys,
> I’m curious if there’s an interest in a free, CallerID database? For
> those of you in the same spot we are, our current provider only
> provides us with the CND, excluding CNAM.
>
> Would creating a public database, managed by users be worthwhile to
> anyone?
>
> Thanks – Any input is greatly appreciated.
>
> --
> Robert Norton
> SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
> Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
> P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
> http://www.XStreamHost.com - Web Hosting
> http://www.SophMedia.com - Consulting & Web Development
>
> --
> NOTICE:
> This e-mail (including all attachments) may contain confidential and
> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s).
> You, the recipient, are obligated to maintain it in the safe, secure,
> and confidential manner. Any review, use, distribution, disclosure, or
> copying by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please notify
> the sender by reply e-mail and delete, or destroy all copies of this
> message immediately.
>
>
>
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RE: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

[Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC]

Hey Shane,
The basis of my idea was that it would be user-moderated/generated. A
'owner/operator' of a number, would submit & verify their phone number,
enter their caller id, and basically be done with it. The logistics of it I
don't really think would be that complicated. If a listing needs to be
updated they basically go through the same process.

Right now, we're using a commonly available script (I can't remember the
link off hand) that uses Google, 411.com, etc, to do a lookup and although
it works pretty good, it is horribly inaccurate the majority of the time.

--
Robert Norton
SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
http://www.XStreamHost.com - Web Hosting
http://www.SophMedia.com - Consulting & Web Development
 
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by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or
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e-mail and delete, or destroy all copies of this message immediately.
-Original Message-
From: Shane Young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 12:46 PM
To: Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Open CallerID Database?

Robert

On the surface, I don't see how you could a db with a very good hit  
rate without paying for the data.

There are thousands and thousdands of database updates every day.

Perhaps I am missing your intent here.




Quoting Robert Norton - SophMedia LLC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hey Guys,
> I'm curious if there's an interest in a free, CallerID database? For those
> of you in the same spot we are, our current provider only provides us with
> the CND, excluding CNAM.
>
> Would creating a public database, managed by users be worthwhile to
anyone?
>
> Thanks - Any input is greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> --
> Robert Norton
> SophMedia LLC Operations Manager
> Cell: 480-234-4312 Office: 480-626-5449 (x300)
> P.O. Box 7755 Tempe, AZ 85281
> http://www.XStreamHost.com - Web Hosting
> http://www.SophMedia.com - Consulting & Web Development
>
>
>
> --
> NOTICE:
> This e-mail (including all attachments) may contain confidential and
> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). You,
the
> recipient, are obligated to maintain it in the safe, secure, and
> confidential manner. Any review, use, distribution, disclosure, or copying
> by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient
(or
> authorized to receive for the recipient), please notify the sender by
reply
> e-mail and delete, or destroy all copies of this message immediately.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--Shane









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