Re: Invalid reason for banning racer max
Re: Invalid reason for banning racer max Can we please stop being a bunch of illiterate sensationalists trying to spark drama for the sake of drama? The offending ex-forum member clearly exhibited signs of a bannee, knew enough about the forum to know that they probably would get banned and went ahead and posted the clone anyway, and went out of their way to provoke the admin staff, which means they already weren't going to be a good fit for the community (even if they were legitimately not a formerly banned member).Please learned what the words you are throwing around mean. You're potentially accusing the forum moderators of racism just because they chose to ban a controversially provocative member?From Merriam-Webster: A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.From Dictionary.com: A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.No such insinuation was made in the ban statement, no demarcation of race or even social caste was implied. Falsely accusing someone of racism and trying to spark a conflagration in that respect is tantamount to fear mongering, so I'd be careful of the ground you're treading on, Deathstar.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/491345/#p491345 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Invalid reason for banning racer max
Re: Invalid reason for banning racer max Can we please stop being a bunch of illiterate sensationalists trying to spark drama for the sake of drama? The offending ex-forum member clearly exhibited signs of a bannee, knew enough about the forum to know that they probably would get banned and went ahead and posted the clone anyway, and went out of their way to provoke the admin staff, which means they already weren't going to be a good fit for the community (even if they were legitimately not a formerly banned member).Please learned what the words you are throwing around mean. You're potentially accusing the forum moderators of racism just because they chose to ban a controversially provocative member?From Merriam-Webster: A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.From Dictionary.com: A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.No such insinuation was made in the ban statement, no demarcation of race or even social caste was implied. Falsely accusing someone of racism and trying to spark a conflagration in that respect is tantamount to a community failure breach, so I'd be careful of the ground you're treading on, Deathstar.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/491345/#p491345 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Invalid reason for banning racer max
Re: Invalid reason for banning racer max Can we please stop being a bunch of illiterate sensationalists trying to spark drama for the sake of drama? The offending ex-forum member clearly exhibited signs of a bannee, knew enough about the forum to know that they probably would get banned and went ahead and posted the clone anyway, and went out of their way to provoke the admin staff, which means they already weren't going to be a good fit for the community (even if they were legitimately not a formerly banned member).Please learned what the words you are throwing around mean. You're potentially accusing the forum moderators of racism just because they chose to ban a controversially provocative member?From Merriam-Webster: A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.From Dictionary.com: A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.No such insinuation was made in the ban statement, no demarcation of race or even social caste was implied. Falsely accusing someone of racism and trying to spark a conflagration in that respect is tantamount to a community failure breach, so I'd be careful of the ground you're treading on, Deathstar.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/491345/#p491345 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Audiogames.net will be soon down
Re: Audiogames.net will be soon down Giovani wrote:There also another reasons for this, why AG will be soon down.There are most of arrogant people, who love hate another people here. Audiogames.net website wasn't updated, only in august.So, It'll be good to say goodbye to this site.You say this, and yet continue to visit the site to make posts. Hypocrisy?Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/487298/#p487298 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Is it Time to Re-Discuss Copyright Rules on This Forum
Re: Is it Time to Re-Discuss Copyright Rules on This Forum The problem isn't the restriction of illegal content. In my view, the problem is the sensationalism by forum members over this topic. Many of the limitations placed on the forum's content are out of respect for content creators and IP holders. You can't say it's wrong to download a crack of Shades of Doom, but in the same breath say that it's fine to download Frozen 2 for free, or indeed to get Red Dead Redemption 2 for free.I think the rules regarding these kinds of links are fine as is. And heck, at the end of the day, we're supposed to be discussing games, not be a black market stop shop for links to illegal content.Are there gray areas in this respect? Absolutely. But I don't think it's for the users to contend with how the staff choose to handle those gray areas, unless a certain decision would end up hurting the site more than help it. As a hint, allowing the free distribution of questionable links would be hurting the site more than helping, as I'm sure the site's admins would rather take down the site than fight a legal case over what a couple users chose to post (I know that's how I'd handle a Cease and Desist from a publisher if I were the owner of audiogames.net).Is it restrictive? Probably. Does it defeat the purpose of AudioGames.net? Not in the least.This constant criticism of the staff's decisions regarding the site seems very disrespectful to me. It's like people are saying "We don't trust how you guys are handling the management of the site, and so we're going to take it into our own hands to come up with a better approach." And while there may be times when such an approach is necessary, vying against the staff on copyright issues isn't one of them.There are a plethora of resources that people can go to for such content. Audiogames.net does not need to be such a resource. It's fine being a site to discuss games playable by the blind and visually impaired, rather than a site where you can find links to download the entire Lord of the Ringtones collection, or a cracked copy of Windows Solitaire.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/486842/#p486842 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: You can't edit PMs, and the moderators might be reading them
Re: You can't edit PMs, and the moderators might be reading them The best thing to do with goats is to take its muscle meat and bones and let them cook in lots of water. Next, gather some of that meat and a bone into a cloth bag, tying it shut. Now wear the bag so that it's resting with the mouth right at your chin, the rest dangling underneath.It's a very therapeutic and empowering practice. I love strolling around town, sporting my goat tea.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/486144/#p486144 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: You can't edit PMs, and the moderators might be reading them
Re: You can't edit PMs, and the moderators might be reading them The best thing to do with goats is to take its muscle meat and bones and let them cook in lots of water. Next, gather some of that meat and a bone into a cloth bag, tying it shut. Now wear the bag so that it's resting with the mouth right at your shin, the rest dangling underneath your chin.It's a very therapeutic and empowering practice. I love strolling around town, sporting my goat tea.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/486144/#p486144 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Admins want to forbid posting introductions of other forums!
Re: Admins want to forbid posting introductions of other forums! Are you sick and tired of getting a bunch of guys, but no girls? Do you wish that you didn't always have to take a gamble on whether or not it's actually a girl? Do you wish you knew how to determine that it was a girl right away so you could handle her properly, rather than have to deal with the bother of finding out that it's a guy several weeks down the road? If any of these questions pertain to you, you should read this blog on How To Sex A Chick. It'll change your life! Here is a small exerpt from this wonderfully informative article:The most accurate way to determine the sex of a young chick is undoubtedly by observing the vent of the chick. This is known as “venting” or “vent sexing”It is not a simple task, and it requires skill and the ability to carefully restrain a chick without harming it. Venting is the method that most hatcheries use prior to shipping chicks. They take the time to hire professional chick sexers who are experienced and extremely accurate. Some countries even have schools that focus on chicken sexing. However, even the top hatcheries, with the best sexers, will not guarantee 100% accuracy.While venting is one of the most accurate ways to sex chicks, without years of experience, this method can be just as difficult as simply eyeballing a brooder full of chicks. It isn’t for the faint of heart either, as it involves squeezing the baby chick until the feces are expelled and their inner parts can be seen. Once the inner parts are visible, a small bulb will be visible within the cloaca if the chick is a male. Even the most experienced may miss this small bulb so it certainly takes years of practice to get this method down.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/474950/#p474950 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Admins want to forbid posting introductions of other forums!
Re: Admins want to forbid posting introductions of other forums! Are you sick and tired of not getting a bunch of guys, but no girls? Do you wish that you didn't always have to take a gamble on whether or not it's actually a girl? Do you wish you knew how to determine that it was a girl right away so you could handle her properly, rather than have to deal with the bother of finding out that it's a guy several weeks down the road? If any of these questions pertain to you, you should read this blog on How To Sex A Chick. It'll change your life! Here is a small exerpt from this wonderfully informative article:The most accurate way to determine the sex of a young chick is undoubtedly by observing the vent of the chick. This is known as “venting” or “vent sexing”It is not a simple task, and it requires skill and the ability to carefully restrain a chick without harming it. Venting is the method that most hatcheries use prior to shipping chicks. They take the time to hire professional chick sexers who are experienced and extremely accurate. Some countries even have schools that focus on chicken sexing. However, even the top hatcheries, with the best sexers, will not guarantee 100% accuracy.While venting is one of the most accurate ways to sex chicks, without years of experience, this method can be just as difficult as simply eyeballing a brooder full of chicks. It isn’t for the faint of heart either, as it involves squeezing the baby chick until the feces are expelled and their inner parts can be seen. Once the inner parts are visible, a small bulb will be visible within the cloaca if the chick is a male. Even the most experienced may miss this small bulb so it certainly takes years of practice to get this method down.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/474950/#p474950 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Blatant Character Assassination Hasn't Been Dealt With Yet
Re: Blatant Character Assassination Hasn't Been Dealt With Yet Jesus forking Christ! Is this a "Who can be a bigger dick" contest? @redfox, if Dan was indeed trying to skip and ignore Ironcross' posts, deliberately copying his message into your own post is both spam and disrespectful on an entirely unnecessary level.I myself don't understand why the mods have been letting Ironcross get away with all these personal attacks and inflamation given his history, but hey, I'm not the captain of this ship.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/474740/#p474740 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Blatant Character Assassination Hasn't Been Dealt With Yet
Re: Blatant Character Assassination Hasn't Been Dealt With Yet I've been avoiding this topic, but wow Ironcross. I sure hope I don't have to point it out, but I think this is the pot calling the kettle black. Also, aren't these direct personal comments about a forum user against the community clauses? You're deliberately inflaming and baiting, especially when you have no grounds to, Mr. I'm sorry I just called you a fagget but it's OK because I was just typing it really fast and wasn't really thinking about it anyway... Oh sorry I shot your grandmother. I was kind of just spraying bullets at random and wasn't even thinking about it anyway. We're still cool, right?Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/474483/#p474483 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Can we do something about all the begging?
Re: Can we do something about all the begging? There's nothing wrong with this topic, either. Some people don't like seeing people begging for nonessentials, especially when there are people out there struggling just to make ends meet. If you just had enough to get the game for yourself, I could see the frustration with other people constantly asking for the same thing at someone else's expense. I, for example, would in no way consider getting the game for someone else -- it's too expensive for poor me to be so generous. I might be able to justify it for myself, or for very close friends, but could never for total strangers.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/472502/#p472502 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Can we do something about all the begging?
Re: Can we do something about all the begging? I'm in full agreement with you, stirlock. Instant gratification syndrome is apparently alive and well here in the audiogames community, but since they're so far keeping it all contained to one easily ignored topic, and since no ones obligated to gift anyone a game, I think it's ok. Heck. I was even nice. I bought this guy named Kai who was asking for Manamon 2 his own copy! See? I can be generous.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/472037/#p472037 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Can we do something about all the begging?
Re: Can we do something about all the begging? I'm not exactly sure how the begging is out of hand. If we talking about requests for Manamon 2 gifts, all the requests are so far relatively contained to one single topic which is clearly titled. Anyone who doesn't care about gifting the game to someone else need not read that topic. Out of hand would be people spamming the forum with multiple topics requesting game gifts. Granted some of the participants in that topic might be a bit ridiculous, but I wouldn't say it's exactly out of hand.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/472016/#p472016 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Gathering Community Consensus is Now Not OK
Re: Gathering Community Consensus is Now Not OK Re: Post 21:Finally a moderator who can tell the things without letting his personal emotions to ruin it. Because sadly, one of the staff members likes just closing the topics and every opinion that is different from the accepted one, is extremely bad.I am sorry, didn't want to attack anyone personally, but i guess we all know who i was talking about.I find this a pretty passive aggressive attempt to complain about Jade, without actually owning up to the fact that you are indeed criticizing how you perceive Jade's efforts at being a moderator. You keep claiming to not wanting to give offense, all while doing so.Jayde, it was not pointed to Dark. He never wanted to play the big boss here, he treated us as people, and he accepted opinions. It's not about that you don't, but you make it impossible. And no, i'm not attacking you, it's only a honest opinion. Okay, maybe those threads would have just created more drama. But where to express opinions if not on the forum? Can i be honest? This is starting to be like a bad parliament. Like there are two groups, who are against eachother, and both of them try to make the other's opinion impossible to tell. I'm not against you or anything, but we can't always have positive opinions about everything. It's just how life goes.Maybe I haven't read all the posts, but I've yet to see evidence of Jade doing this. If Jade really wanted to silence people's opinions, he would've deleted the topics, rather than just closing them. What I've observed Jade doing is quelling the flames of drama, which to my understanding, MasterOfDeath really would rather fan than extinguish. I (for one) am glad that the moderators are trying to make the Audiogames forum not at home to drama and bickering. Can anyone please point out a topic which the moderators closed that was full of productive exchange rather than dramatic sniping and flaming? If so, I'll retract my defense of the current moderation efforts.I realize there are forums such as 4chan which promote drama and rivalry, but if you like that environment of discussion, there are plenty of other avenues for that kind of strifemaking. I prefer a well moderated forum where we're more concerned with games than one another's dramatic explosions.In an unrelated note, I saw above that even some moderators were considering or wishing there were a way to mark various developers as untrustworthy. I'm very much against this mindset. While I agree that users should be made aware of an unscrupulous person, I don't think it's the job of the forum to get into policing.For one, the policing is relegated to the efforts of a few people. This basically means that a moderator with a vendetta against a particular individual could elect to mark them as untrustworthy. While it's true enough that other moderators could later fix this issue, for the interim where such a demarcation is allowed to stand, anyone could come along and see it, and knowing no better, believe the erroneous developer report.It also falls a bit too closely towards the anti character assassination clause which the forum should be upholding. It's one thing for users to criticize a developer, but it's another thing for that developer to be unequivocally denounced as a bad developer by the site's staff.(Slightly off-topic tangent) To extend this even further, remember that even the moderators had an issue with users expressing negative opinions about the Golden Gun game, and so far as I can tell, those opinions were pretty civil, if repeated. I myself see nothing wrong with a repeated opinion, but it was such a big point in the topic about toxicity on the forums that I think it bears some lighting upon. There's nothing wrong with multiple users expressing the same opinion. The moment we start saying X Y and Z's already expressed that opinion, please don't add to it with yours, you're beginning to devalue the opinions of your users. Would you make the same stance against repeated opinions if several other users has already said this game is great, for example?Ultimately, I think we need to leave the _expression_ of opinions about developers to the users, leaving Audiogames.net to be a discussion forum, rather than a place to evaluate and demarcate developers into acceptable and unacceptable divisions. Lets just get in some good games.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420031/#p420031 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Gathering Community Consensus is Now Not OK
Re: Gathering Community Consensus is Now Not OK To date, all the posts I've seen that start up drama about this Mason individual have been made by others, by things he's done off the forum, not as a forum member. He hasn't participated in character assassination posts, hasn't been part of any deliberate pirating rings, hasn't been linked to any moderator impersonation scams, etc. While I respect that you guys are annoyed with him for stuff he's done on his own games and services, that's stuff he's done on his own games and services. You're basically saying... This person pushed me in the school playground, can we please ban him from the YMCA?(Edit) I went back to look at a few topics, and while Mason definitely isn't clean, I'm actually gonna give him the benefit of a doubt here, since any responses he made (be they warranted or not), were in answer to a multitude of other criticisms, insults, and other negative statements about him. If I were the victim of such a stream of negativity, I'd probably be tempted to respond in kind.Honestly I think a certain sect of forumites seem to have a personal beef with either Mason, the moderators, or both. You guys keep questioning decisions they make on some of the loosest grounds. You're doing your best to discredit the moderators, moderators most of us agreed we needed more of. They do their job, and as a reward, they're criticized for it.All the childish, judgemental, elitist, self-important, high and mighty behaviour exhibited by some few of the forum members of late have been rather frustrating, and it seems to be those members who post the most. I guess we really can't just be a forum who respects one another's opinions, right? Because to some of you, if they're not using your programming language, or upgrading like you think they should, or linching the people you think they aught to be, they're clearly idiots who don't know what they're doing, be they forum member or moderator.I read the topic linked to in post 1, and it is if nothing else the straightest form of character assassination, the perfect tinder to kindle the flames of drama. Lately, several topics have been of this nature. Are we a forum for people who enjoy gaming, or are we a forum of middle school children who just can't stop bickering?I for one emphatically support Jade's decision to close the referenced topic. Please. Lets all remember that we're a community brought together for the enjoyment of audio games, rather than for the perpetual conflagration of fires, just because person B decides they don't like the same kind of socks you like. The world is a wide place, boys and girls. People are allowed to do things as they will sometimes, having their own opinions and such, too. I know, it's shocking!Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419624/#p419624 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Gathering Community Consensus is Now Not OK
Re: Gathering Community Consensus is Now Not OK To date, all the posts I've seen that start up drama about this Mason individual have been made by others, by things he's done off the forum, not as a forum member. He hasn't participated in character assassination posts, hasn't been part of any deliberate pirating rings, hasn't been linked to any moderator impersonation scams, etc. While I respect that you guys are annoyed with him for stuff he's done on his own games and services, that's stuff he's done on his own games and services. You're basically saying... This person pushed me in the school playground, can we please ban him from the YMCA?Honestly I think a certain sect of forumites seem to have a personal beef with either Mason, the moderators, or both. You guys keep questioning decisions they make on some of the loosest grounds. You're doing your best to discredit the moderators, moderators most of us agreed we needed more of. They do their job, and as a reward, they're criticized for it.All the childish, judgemental, elitist, self-important, high and mighty behaviour exhibited by some few of the forum members of late have been rather frustrating, and it seems to be those members who post the most. I guess we really can't just be a forum who respects one another's opinions, right? Because to some of you, if they're not using your programming language, or upgrading like you think they should, or linching the people you think they aught to be, they're clearly idiots who don't know what they're doing, be they forum member or moderator.I read the topic linked to in post 1, and it is if nothing else the straightest form of character assassination, the perfect tinder to kindle the flames of drama. Lately, several topics have been of this nature. Are we a forum for people who enjoy gaming, or are we a forum of middle school children who just can't stop bickering?I for one emphatically support Jade's decision to close the referenced topic. Please. Lets all remember that we're a community brought together for the enjoyment of audio games, rather than for the perpetual conflagration of fires, just because person B decides they don't like the same kind of socks you like. The world is a wide place, boys and girls. People are allowed to do things as they will sometimes, having their own opinions and such, too. I know, it's shocking!Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419624/#p419624 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: potentially contravirtial: should we purge the forum of 0posters
Re: potentially contravirtial: should we purge the forum of 0posters I'm all in favour of trimming the detritus. Slash and burn away. If they were real forum members, they'd probably have at least 1 post already, since (in general) people usually only sign up because they want to chime in or contribute.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419397/#p419397 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
400 Bad Request During Login
400 Bad Request During Login I get this error multiple times when I try to log in, using the actual log in link:400 Bad RequestThe plain HTTP request was sent to HTTPS portcloudflareThe address bar shows I am on an https page, so I'm not sure why there's this issue. It's probably worth it to say I'm on Firefox, though I wouldn't have thought Firefox would have issues with https requests?Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/407003/#p407003 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Can we do something about begging topics, please?
Re: Can we do something about begging topics, please? Instead of a gifting subforum, what if the mods just made a generic requests area? I've noticed people requesting links for this or that, for this tool or that tool, and for money for this or that service/product. It'd be a nice way to subsume all these kinds of acquisition topics into one area.Kai URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/post/390477/#p390477 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: I really wish there could be a couple of mod changes
Re: I really wish there could be a couple of mod changes I think this topic is a perfect candidate for closure. People are just deteriorating into he said / she said, bringing up drama about x, y, or z, or flat-out name calling and bashing. It's serving no gaming or productive purpose, other than as an avenue to air out dirty laundry. Please press that magical button? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=266807#p266807 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Spoiler Tag
Spoiler Tag Whilst writing a post for Aprone's Preludeamals game, I came across a need for a tag which would conceal the text until clicked on. I've seen spoiler tags used in various forums, and they do work well with JAWS and NVDA (admittedly the only two screen readers with which I've any familiarity). I don't know how difficult their implementation is, but is there any chance this could be up for consideration as time permits? It's not by any means critical, but being able to hide spoilers from people who don't want to accidentally see them would be a great feature.Kai URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=260445#p260445 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Arbitrary Forum Rule
Re: Arbitrary Forum Rule First and foremost, I'd like to thank you Aaron for being open minded enough to have brought the subject of Steam inclusion to light, be it inspired by discussion with various other persons or not. I will apologize for your perfectly well-intentioned poll descending into this state, and hope that it hasn't by association soured your interest in this matter. That being said, I do have the following to say:Perhaps a kinder soul might find compassion and apologize for any feelings hurt over this issue, but I still stand by my opinion that the topic was closed prematurely, and the subject was too readily dismissed, be it through conviction, defensiveness, misjudgment, or otherwise. My entire point in contacting the administrators in this case, a pair of guys who I'm sure are rather busy with other affairs, was to rail against the level of high-handedness in the moderation of the Steam topic which, while I may grant was heated, did not unduly attack anyone. I will contend that my calling out Dark on the subject could have been avoided had he thought his response through, as would this further communique. At no point in my strong requests for him to demonstrate, beyond ignorance, justifiable evidence for his case, did I or any others deliver any personal attacks, aside from calling a spade a spade.Busy lives are busy lives, and if Dark had calmly explained that neither he nor the other moderators were currently unable to explore a new platform, the situation could have easily been dealt with by means of community effort: members who review and write entries for games, members who demonstrate and explain the setup of the Steam client, members who may have been willing to contribute in any number of ways. Even if This were not possible, a simple and diplomatic explanation to that fact would have done better, and would not have so firmly slammed the door.I believe in equal representation. I well understand that Dark and the other m oderators perform their responsibilities voluntarily, and at no point have I ever openly disrespected any of them (that I am aware of). However, equal representation does not mean arbitrarily closing a topic which, while slightly opinionated and perhaps "heated", had remained on topic, and had not deteriorated into duplicity. I will point to my forum signature which illustrates this fact at its finest: The Ultrapowered topics and their ilk for some time received hundreds of rather discourteous or offensive messages, and yet no moderators at any point in time saw fit to slam its doors (despite multiple entreaties to this end). In other topics where heat arose, moderators often warned the individual(s) involved, but allowed the conversation to continue. Why then, was this Steam topic an exception to that established modus operandi? At any point, a moderator could have stepped in and warned myself or my fellow contributors that we were being too hostile, if indeed we were. As this never occurred, I can only assume that the topic had not escalated to a level which would concern the group of moderators as a whole. Responsibilities are responsibilities, and that means owning up when you make a mistake, as I believe has happened here.I do not seek to vilify or condemn anyone. My contacting the administrators was to seek redress for the undue execution of powers. Perhaps this situation will set guidelines for the moderators themselves in future exchanges, and perhaps things will just quiet down and return to how they were without any significant change, but I cannot just roll over and except that one person can shut down an entire avenue of discussion, where everyone was conforming to the rules, and that person receive no reprisal.Even if Steam games remain apart from the Audiogames database, there should be a good reason why this is so. Remember, at no point during the discussion was it demanded that Steam games be added to the database by tho se who were voting for it. If it be it a lack of time or inclination, allow the community to contribute where you cannot. If it be ignorance, then do not embrace ignorance as fact, but allow yourself to be educated as time permits. To do otherwise is not only discourteous and unappreciative to the developers who have gone out of their way to accommodate their visually impaired fans, but is also a disservice to the members of the community, who (in this case) have clearly demonstrated an overwhelming desire for Steam representation, and have furthermore demonstrated (through various other forum postings) their willingness to assist in this matter.I did not post this topic to rehash the argument, nor did I do so expressly to cause distress to any parties involved or otherwise. I did so as a public service, believing that the members of the community have a right to know how those who are at the reins are handling the steed. Dark has done a lot for the Audiogames site and commun ity, and in no way am i seeking to
Re: Arbitrary Forum Rule
Re: Arbitrary Forum Rule First and foremost, I'd like to thank you Aaron for being open minded enough to have brought the subect of Steam inclusion to light, be it inspired by discussion with various other persons or not. I will apologize for your perfectly well-intentioned poll descending into this state, and hope that it hasn't by association soured your interest in this matter. That being said, I do have the following to say:Perhaps a kinder soul might find compassion and apologize for any feelings hurt over this issue, but I still stand by my opinion that the topic was closed prematurely, and the subject was too readily dismissed, be it through conviction, defensiveness, misjudgment, or otherwise. My entire point in contacting the administrators in this case, a pair of guys who I'm sure are rather busy with other affairs, was to rail against the level of high-handedness in the moderation of the Steam topic which, while I may grant was heated, did not unduly attack anyone. I will contend that my calling out Dark on the subject could have been avoided had he thought his response through, as would this further communique. At no point in my strong requests for him to demonstrate, beyond ignorance, justifiable evidence for his case, did I or any others deliver any personal attacks, aside from calling a spade a spade.Busy lives are busy lives, and if Dark had calmly explained that neither he nor the other moderators were currently unable to explore a new platform, the situation could have easily been dealt with by means of community effort: members who review and write entries for games, members who demonstrate and explain the setup of the Steam client, members who may have been willing to contribute in any number of ways. Even if This were not possible, a simple and diplomatic explanation to that fact would have done better, and would not have so firmly slammed the door.I believe in equal representation. I well understand that Dark and the other mo derators perform their responsibilities voluntarily, and at no point have I ever openly disrespected any of them (that I am aware of). However, equal representation does not mean arbitrarily closing a topic which, while slightly opinionated and perhaps "heated", had remained on topic, and had not deteriorated into duplicity. I will point to my forum signature which illustrates this fact at its finest: The Ultrapowered topics and their ilk for some time received hundreds of rather discourteous or offensive messages, and yet no moderators at any point in time saw fit to slam its doors (despite multiple entreaties to this end). In other topics where heat arose, moderators often warned the individual(s) involved, but allowed the conversation to continue. Why then, was this Steam topic an exception to that established modus operandi? At any point, a moderator could have stepped in and warned myself or my fellow contributors that we were being too hostile, if indeed we were. As this never occurred, I can only assume that the topic had not escalated to a level which would concern the group of moderators as a whole. Responsibilities are responsibilities, and that means owning up when you make a mistake, as I believe has happened here.I do not seek to vilify or condemn anyone. My contacting the administrators was to seek redress for the undue execution of powers. Perhaps this situation will set guidelines for the moderators themselves in future exchanges, and perhaps things will just quiet down and return to how they were without any significant change, but I cannot just roll over and except that one person can shut down an entire avenue of discussion, where everyone was conforming to the rules, and that person receive no reprisal.Even if Steam games remain apart from the Audiogames database, there should be a good reason why this is so. Remember, at no point during the discussion was it demanded that Steam games be added to the database by thos e who were voting for it. If it be it a lack of time or inclination, allow the community to contribute where you cannot. If it be ignorance, then do not embrace ignorance as fact, but allow yourself to be educated as time permits. To do otherwise is not only discourteous and unappreciative to the developers who have gone out of their way to accommodate their visually impaired fans, but is also a disservice to the members of the community, who (in this case) have clearly demonstrated an overwhelming desire for Steam representation, and have furthermore demonstrated (through various other forum postings) their willingness to assist in this matter.I did not post this topic to rehash the argument, nor did I do so expressly to cause distress to any parties involved or otherwise. I did so as a public service, believing that the members of the community have a right to know how those who are at the reins are handling the steed. Dark has done a lot for the Audiogames site and communi ty, and in no way am i seeking to
Arbitrary Forum Rule
Arbitrary Forum Rule The following is a message I wrote to the administrators of the site, regarding the situation in the should accessible steam games be added to the databasetopic. I present it for community awareness only, and do not post it to breed contention, but I feel it fair to bring to light the way this situation was handled.Begin MessageI'm writing to you on a matter of community representation, in reaction to a particular individual attempting to silence the voices of those who harbour opinions in direct opposition to his own. He has closed the "should accessible steam games be added to the database" forum topic, claiming that the topic possesses "sniping" and "mob mentality", wherein I shall counter with the fact that people in the discussion, whilst passionate about the subject, have done neither.To give you some background: Aaron, a moderator of the forums, propose d a poll inquiring whether or not accessible games which are offered through the Steam platform should be added to the Audiogames database. As of this writing, 29 people have voted that they should be included, as opposed to 6 who say otherwise.A series of discussions and debates have been lobbied on the subject, with an overwhelming number of people expressing their interest in supporting accessible games made available through Steam. At some point during the discussion, the moderator Dark steps in to proclaim unequivocally that "Therefore, "until the client is fixed, steam games won't get pages". He does not provide that the subject will require time for consideration, nor does he suggest that perhaps the matter may have to wait until demonstrations on how to accessibly use Steam are easily available, nor does he acknowledge the efforts and opinions of his fellow moderators (one of which proposed, and thus was at least entertaining the idea). he states w ithout contest or any degree of flexibility that the matter is closed, and that Steam games will not be considered for inclusion, no matter what the community desires.He furthermore continues on to insist with all impracticality that developers who release games on Steam, a medium which affords them with a readily available and easily accessible distribution platform, must consider releasing versions untied to the service before they'll be considered for inclusion. In this day and age, we well know the truth of piracy, and requiring a developer to make a special release which may be less secure and thus more easily pirated, to say nothing of making a special version just to cater to a realistically small market is both unfair to game developers and unrealistic in general.Additionally, his evidence of Steam's accessibility is circumspect, as it comes from heresay. "Last I heard the steam client required OCR interpretation, literally printing material to t he screen and then clicking with guesswork." I can personally attest and demonstrate to you if desired that his statement of Steam's deficiencies is both erroneous and born of ignorance. He has neither researched the truth of the situation before making his case, nor has he considered the overwhelming proof from multiple people who regularly use the service without accessibility issues.The discussion continues, wherein I do call him out on his very dictatorial decision, ignoring the needs of the community as a whole (as expressed by the overwhelming number of positive votes). I ask him to show evidence of Steam lack of accessibility, ask him to observe proof of Steam's accessibility, and ask him to reconsider his decision. He has yet to defend his stance on the subject, and instead has elected to close the topic, implying that there has been material offensive enough to warrant such a drastic measure. I counter that this is a personally driven reaction to a sit uation wherein the offending moderator was unable to deliver a valid response to the overwhelming view. He calls those of us who are contending for Steam a mob, saying he's opposed to a "mob mentality". At no point have any of the contributors demanded Steam's inclusion. We have but strongly defended the stance that Steam should be included, that it's accessible enough to use, and that to do otherwise is to disparage the efforts of those developers who do go out of their way to make their mainstream games accessible.I ask you as administrators to the site: Is this forum not a community effort? Are the games and contributions here to the greater benefit of the community as a whole, rather than just to a few select individuals? If the site is designed with the community in mind, then how can such an arbitrary move as to close a topic which does not agree with one moderator be allowed? Furthermore, how is this not being discourteous to his fellow moderat ors, as well as to those who support the initiative? I quote rule two from the forum rules: "2) Be nice to each other and respect the moderators. The moderators will delete messages with offensive behavior and
Re: should accessible steam games be added to the database
Re: should accessible steam games be added to the database Aaron, I note this final paragraph of Dark's:Dark wrote:Therefore, until! the client is fixed, steam games won't get pages, indeed I'd strongly suggest that developers of games like Skullgirls if they want their games to be fully accessible do as the developers of smugglers, and the cog titles do and offer downloads without! the inaccessible mess of steam, indeed I actually think this website should not! support Steam given Valve's basic lack of interest in accessibility.Dark has said in this one statement that there won't be any Steam entries, that he furthermore expects developers to take their games off of Steam to find some other form of DRM protection and distribution before he'll endorse them, and thus allow them into the database. He does not entertain the thought that the decision may change based on community interest, in fact he give no illusions that commu nity interest in any way matters in his decision making with regard to the Audiogames database. This seems very dictatorial to me, and I am frankly very disappointed that one person can hold so much sway over the Audiogames database. He could've said that he might need help adding Steam entries, he could've said he needed proof that Steam was accessible... any number other things, but he has declared his stance on the issue, and it is in my opinion one derived only from his own personal interest and ignorance, rather than with any consideration for the other members or contributors of this site.Kai URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=259747#p259747 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: should accessible steam games be added to the database
Re: should accessible steam games be added to the database I'm done trying to convince people that Steam is accessible, since despite my saying it is accessible, people clearly aren't reading. I'm done trying to encourage people to add Steam games to the database, since Dark has already pulled the dictator card and said "I don't care what the majority wants (26 yes votes to 6 no votes), this is what I want, and this is how it will be". I'm done trying to rid people of this backwards thinking ignorance, where you hear something negative and fully invest in it, or have a small negative experience and then use that as the standard of evaluation, as if software doesn't evolve.I was actually going to record a demonstration of how accessible Steam really is, with JAWS and NVDA, but it seems like wasted effort when one person can pull rank and shut down a field of information for everyone else, never mind that said person has basically just devalued the opinions of his peer(s) who might've othe rwise wished for Steam implementation. This kind of Draconian policy making is honestly ridiculous to me, and will do nothing towards progress.Wallow in your ignorance and self righteousness and deprive yourself of the games that are available on Steam then. I and those like myself who embrace effort and have learned how to use Steam will enjoy our expanded library.I am frankly disappointed at this level of close-minded, and am baffled as to why certain individuals would be so offended with the inclusion of Steam games to the library. As others have stated, it's easy to designate game platform, so if you don't like the platform, just ignore it! What you are doing instead is saying that, because I myself refuse to learn how to make these games playable, no one else needs to know about them. You are furthermore spitting on the efforts of developers who have gone out of their way to add accessibility to games which, lets be honest, they're not really obliga ted to. So well done for not appreciating their hard work, and well done for dictatorship.Kai URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=259718#p259718 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: should accessible steam games be added to the database
Re: should accessible steam games be added to the database @guilevi: You said everything I wanted to say. @Dark: You're being incredibly narrow minded and ignorant about Steam. As Guilevi said, steam does not need OCR, once you make a couple tweaks. I will confess that making some of those tweaks *might* require OCR (depending on your situation), but again, I've seen you and various others jump through bigger hurdles to make certain games work. I just don't understand this backwards view about Steam. Sure it's not always an ideal client, but can you say that Smugglers 5's accessibility is 100%? Can you say that all of the games in the database are 100% accessible? And when I say accessible, I mean to everyone, not just you and your setup. Steam is no different in that regard, and dismissing it so out of hand and so arbitrarily makes me very sad at the general display of ignorance and dictatorian rule over the database. You're basically saying you will only condone games which you yourself or a small subset of contributors can play, want to play, or have interest in playing.I just checked, and BK2 and BK3 are both in the database, both games which require translation tools, various system install packages, and system settings. If I don't have, or don't want to use NVDA, these games are inaccessible to me, since those tools work with NVDA, right? That renders BK2 and BK3 inaccessible to me, and by the very virtue of having to install various third party tools and system modifications, makes the prospect of playing these games just as daunting as you're making Steam sound. Even with the advent of the JTG add-on, I still need to install Japanese keyboards and such, and trust that the services offered by JTG (since it's being paid for) will endure.I've never had to make a single system setting change to make Steam work, so lets please not cloud the issue with things that don't really exist. I've had to make application tweaks to the Steam clie nt itself, sure, but that's nothing compared with the Japanese language setting, the Japanese keyboard, the need for NVDA, the installation of third-party add-ons I can't personally verify as trustworthy. Where do you draw the line, and how is BK2 and BK3 in their distribution platform any different?Amusingly, I see that the pole has 16 yes votes and only 5 no votes, so Dark is basically saying that, even though the majority of the votes say yes, he's going to pull rank and deny the majority. I urge you to think more carefully in future about such a strong-arm decision.Kai URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=259599#p259599 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: should accessible steam games be added to the database
Re: should accessible steam games be added to the database @guilevi: You said everything I wanted to say. @Dark: You're being incredibly narrow minded and ignorant about Steam. As Guilevi said, steam does not need OCR, once you make a couple tweaks. I will confess that making some of those tweaks *might* require OCR (depending on your situation), but again, I've seen you and various others jump through bigger hurdles to make certain games work. I just don't understand this backwards view about Steam. Sure it's not always an ideal client, but can you say that Smugglers 5's accessibility is 100%? Can you say that all of the games in the database are 100% accessible? And when I say accessible, I mean to everyone, not just you and your setup. Steam is no different in that regard, and dismissing it so out of hand and so arbitrarily makes me very sad at the general display of ignorance and dictatorian rule over the database. You're basically saying you will only condone games which you yourself or a small subset of contributors can play, want to play, or have interest in playing.I just checked, and BK2 and BK3 are both in the database, both games which require translation tools, various system install packages, and system settings. If I don't have, or don't want to use NVDA, these games are inaccessible to me, since those tools work with NVDA, right? That renders BK2 and BK3 inaccessible to me, and by the very virtue of having to install various third party tools and system modifications, makes the prospect of playing these games just as daunting as you're making Steam sound. Even with the advent of the JTG add-on, I still need to install Japanese keyboards and such, and trust that the services offered by JTG (since it's being paid for) will endure.I've never had to make a single system setting change to make Steam work, so lets please not cloud the issue with things that don't really exist. I've had to make application tweaks to the Steam clie nt itself, sure, but that's nothing compared with the Japanese language setting, the Japanese keyboard, the need for NVDA, the installation of third-party add-ons I can't personally verify as trustworthy. Where do you draw the line, and how is BK2 and BK3 in their distribution platform any different?Kai URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=259599#p259599 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: should accessible steam games be added to the database
Re: should accessible steam games be added to the database I wholeheartedly disagree with Figment's assessment that Steam games should just be wiped off of the Audiogames forum, simply because there are a couple accessibility hurdles to overcome. Steam has command parameters and options to make it more accessible, and I don't see those challenges as anything more than the hurdles people went through to play Japanese games (changing system settings, installing language packages, etc). Given that some accessible games are already coming out for the Steam platform, it seems short-sighted to exclude the entire platform as a whole, simply because Steam isn't the holy grail of accessibility. Do I wish it worked better? Of course I do, but I and various others have learned to use Steam, which obviously means it's not a task unsurmountable.I could see a separate category for Steam games, but to out right alienate the platform because of some shortcomings would do a serious disservice to several of us on the forum who ha ppen to love the games we play on Steam. Would you have games like A Blind Legend and Skullgirls alienated simply because they are hosted via Steam, even though every effort has gone to make Skullgirls accessible, and ABL is nothing but an audio game?If we start filtering games by "partial accessibility", the question becomes all too mercurial. What might seem pretty accessible to me may not be so to another person, and vice versa. If a game functions well with Super Nova but not with JAWS, am I within my rights to proclaim the game as unplayable? And if I can do so and possess the ability to remove the game from the forum, might I not be robbing someone else of the opportunity to play a game which, to them, might be perfectly acceptable? Should games which are playable by those who have some slight degree of vision be ostracized because they are inaccessible to those of us who have no vision, but are perfectly accessible to them?I refuse a Draconian measurin g stick, wherein all things are subject to a specific criterion. What works well for me may not do so for you, an what works well for you may not do likewise for me or the next guy down the line, but if we start closing our doors to adversity and diversity, our gaming community will be very small. We need to embrace what's available,. Doing so will only broaden our game library. Throwing away everything which doesn't meet every specification for perfection can only constrict our growth as a gaming community.Kai URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=259334#p259334 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
