Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Well, i did give an example-the doctors office. I dont feel comfortable letting go of my dogs leash for any reason whatsoever, and this is something that was encouraged over here. Exam table, etc. Also, if I have to carry a lot of stuff back with me, thus requiring a free hand (or hand and a half-theres all sorts of ways to use a cane and still manage to hold stuff in the cane hand, if necessary), Ill leave him so that I can have the extra carrying capacity. I normally manage to get someone to help me with the grocery shopping because public transportation in Florida is basically horrid (getting to the grocery store, without a cab, is an hour and a half to two hours, even though its 10 minutes by car); afterwords, I run him upstairs and come back down with my rolling cart. If I had amazing public transportation, or no one to help me with grocery shopping, I might contemplate leaving him for that; Id definitely have to look into alternatives that dont involve carrying everything with my hands, at any rate. Even so, if I decide to go get dinner and bring it home, for example, Ill sometimes leave him-the closest place is basically 20 feet out my front door, and the second closest isnt much further. Food, drink, and dog can become a bit much. Typically, if Im out for more than 10 minutes, hes with me-but sometimes, those ten minute, bring something back to my dorm for dinner outings are just easier with a cane. This is a very small portion of my life for which the dog isnt with me; perhaps I gave the wrong impression. They do happen, however. He spends at least 6 hours out a day 5 days a week, so dont think Im neglecting him or something. In another 6 months, I might be able to eliminate even these small outings; towards the very end with my previous dog, I trusted her enough that I wasnt worried about needing to suddenly get hold of the leash, and she was equally responsive to voice or gesture independently (thus giving me a free hand without a problem). This takes a bit, though. My previous dog only made it three years for a variety of reasons, including a major activity level change on my part; it wasnt a 10 year thing before I could do tricks like that, and now that I know what Im doing I can probably get there much faster. My current dog, however, gets really excited really easily, and requires a lot of two-handed handling. Also, chemistry labs, and the one last semester that had little plastic wire cuttings all over the floor also count-in the first, because of risks of spilling, in the second because electrical wire pieces everywhere, some shorter than your thumbnail, with copper and plastic, and just the right size to swallow without chewing very much.Clicker training isnt snapping the fingers-its an actual device that makes a sound. He wont respond to me snapping my fingers, but some do learn to respond to clicking your tongue (which is more similar). The idea is that the dog associates the clicker to the food, so clicking the clicker is as good as. You have to give food shortly after, or the association starts breaking, but its much, much faster than finding the food after your dog does something amazing and makes it a lot easier for the dog to figure out what earned the food. Ive found this to be absurdly effective with both my current and previous dog; they pick things up very, very quickly with it and love the game the entire time. My dog gets very excited to hear it the first time, and then gets really into the training for a bit (like, think playing fetch excited). It works for anything you want to teach your dog, guidework or not. It also works well for pets, if you take the time to clicker train them in the first plac e. I was really incredulous the first time they showed this to us; then we spent a day practicing it (which is probably required, especially for new people, only to prove the amazingness). We use food all the time, which is a recent enough change that some graduates are still coming back and being introduced to it after 50 years of never feed your dog while working.My guide dog school puts major emphasis on the gestures. Major, major emphasis. I can completely drop the voice and hell still work just fine. They queue into hand gestures and, when they get uncertain, leash gestures. With a bit of effort, I can sometimes get him queuing to head gestures (as in, my head), but thats far from effective. We dont have a command that means yes, I want to go this way; when hes unsure about the line of travel and I am, I just point or, if thats not enough, queue him in the right direction with the leash.As for the electronic guide dog...well, technology is moving forward rapidly. Weve got laptops with 7 hour battery life that weigh only a couple pounds, now and, believe it or not, the uncertainty that self-driving cars are going to deal with is very similar to crowds (until everyone has one, they have to deal with
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training You may want to check out my blog by going to the website link. I have a lot of stuff covering stuff like what you just unveiled.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=153407#p153407 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Im not too keen on the electronic devices thing. People were debatingthe possibility of gide robots over on ZOne BBS and about the only thing that came into my head was a rather amusing scene of a guy going into, lets say a convenience store, with his guide robot. Unfortunately electronics malfunction all the time and not every instance is due to viruses or malware. So the scenario that popped into my head involved a y goig into the store only to have his guide robot, which for some reason resembled R2D2 from Star Wars, both in physical appearance and behavior, suddenly experience a malfuction that basically caused it to go haywire, zooming all over the store, crashing into shelves and knocking their contents to the floor before finally hitting a wall and exploding, complete with R2D2s trademark scream. Another scenario involved a more C3PO-like robot complete with a prissy English voice. This one actually made me laugh, becauseI coul just see it arguing with its handler at the start of every outing. Sir, is it really wise for you to go to that place? Of course a robot or other device thats supposed to go out and about with you would have to run on some kind of battery, and that would necessitate making sure it was charged every single time you had to go out. Otherwise your guide robot might refuse to go with you. Im afraid I cannot, sir. Im afraid my batterys dying.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=153322#p153322 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Well Camlorn I completely agree about keeping up cane skills for immergencies, and this is something I was recommended, though to be honest for me I dont need to make time to practice. I pretty much practice my cane everytime I take Reever for a none working walk off harnice, which I do fairly often (every couple of days). I also tend to use my cane every time I go to see my brother and watch anime, just because it worked out slightly easier that way for various reasons, since my brother is less happy with me following with Reever than holding his arm as hes partially sighted, and as its much harder for me to stop Reever picking up something nasty in Nottingham town center if shes not working. Im not sure what you mean about the dog isnt going to tell you about turns you dont take since in England if your going straight down a street and you pass an intersection to one side, even if it is a pedestrianised one, the d og is supposed to stop at it and wait for the command to continnue, so you never miss turnings. The dog will also do this in buildings with branching corridors. Its true that you dont find every single door you walk past, but getting to the correct area and saying find the door will usually do, likewise while you dont necessarily get to hit park benches with your cane, I have taught reever to quite successfully find benches and seats so in any area where I believe there should be a bench I dont need to worry about its exact position constantly. Bins are rather more difficult its true, but then again in Britain bins are often so variable and random in placement Id never hit them with my cane or realize what they were accept by residual vision if I saw someone putting something in, and Ive already taught reever to find post boxes.I suppose in general with a guide dog the experience is more along the lines of having an idea of what location! something is in and then relying on the dog to zero in on it, rather than hitting everything and needing a constant memorization of dangerous obstacles, though of course since your not! having to memorise constantly, you can have more alertness and awareness for objects outside immediate range. This is also why it goes very well with my own risidual vision and sensory object recognition. Just as a correction, Guide dogs isnt run by the government, its an independent charitable organization funded by donations, although the health service or other professionals might refer people to! guide dogs, (indeed up until recently the organization didnt get status as a charity or tax credit), and to be honest if your not paying for it I dont really see what you mean by it being private Regarding classes, well its not so much that you dont get to have fun, or that they are strict, rathe r that the training itself is particularly intensive just by nature of what your actually learning. Sometimes, as happened first off with my mum a number of people are sent off to do training together in a center of some sort, and the dynamics there are rather different since obviously you are! interacting with other people, and will use your cane around the center, (though your apparently expected to have the dog with you at all times). Other times, as with me your doing training at home, and that I believe is naturally harsher just because you pretty much are on your own. Its not so much that your forbidden from using your cane, its more that your expected to be with your dog 24 hours a day 7 days a week, you wouldnt be allowed to say leave your dog in the house and go out on the town with your cane, indeed your generally discouraged from going out much at all, although visitors are quite okay. I actually persuaded my tabletop rp group to come to my f lat rather than me getting a lift to the gms house, (since they have a very nurvous dog this was doubly out), though amusingly enough since they actually liked playing here, (particularly how I put all the chairs out before hand and made coffee), theyve continued to do this ever since! .Its not so much regulations in terms of you must do this so much as it is working out what is best for your dog. theres no problem with say giving toys or treats or whatever, but Guide dogs do mean to see you dont feed your dog something that will make it ill and you keep up with vaccinations etc, this is very mutual, for example Reever when she first came was on an anti allergy food which to be honest made her absolutely starving most of the time, (I think the local health officer who over reacts quite a lot went a bit nuts since Ive never p ersonally noticed Reever having alergies at all), so her food got changed and its been better ever since. After all also remember that various dog food companies actually provide! the food that guide dogs use, and you get it either for nothing or for a basic donation, freely delivered by post. In Britain I suppose its the sense
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training By private, I mean no government support at all. There are laws protecting service animals, but thats it. The way you described it, I thought you were saying its a government program. My bad.I dont know where they got the only left turns from, then. It was just something interesting that they mentioned last time I was there, and we were all incredulous. Apparently, they get representatives from other countries from time to time and share information between the schools to some extent. Maybe this is one of those events wherein the information got really distorted, or maybe it wasnt England.Our dogs do stop at street intersections, of course. Even so, theyre not taught to stop at turns in buildings, for example, or sidewalks that branch off. If youre in a big city and every turn is a street, it works out fine, and you do indeed know every turning. If Im going to explore a univ ersity campus (or at least the ones that are optimized for pedestrians and not traffic), my dog does not tell me about sidewalks or doors that I might opt to go into, so they might as well not exist. Thus, I usually walk new routes the first time with the cane.Im not sure how Id feel if my dog showed me everything. For familiar routs (99% of mine these days), that seems like the dog stopping for every possible turn-off would be annoying. On the other hand, theres a lot, lot, lot of times that would be useful. The philosophy here seems to be to teach the dog things yourself, i.e. where you usually need to turn, and not worry about the things you dont need to know about, at all. I do wish they taught the dogs to, I dont know, turn their heads or bark or something for possible turns.And yes, you can just work cane practice into your routine. Sometimes, the dog is overhead that you dont need or the envir onment is just not conducive to it, so there you go.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=153161#p153161 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training hi guys. this topic is becoming very interesting. I also think that in 20 years we will have some electronic device that will be better than a guide dog. also reading this topic I had a crazy idea.what if some one will research the special sixth sense that some blind guys have the echolocation as they call it?Ive been reading lately about this subject and this fascinates me because I realized I have this since when I was small and I was unconsciously using it to my own benefit. I can use it for example to detect large objects, doorways, and even distinguish between types of walls for example if its a wooden one or if its a gate in it. I can also say when a door is open or not and when something is right in front of my head.this was extremely usefull in some situations and prevented my head from banging in to things.this is a sense that bats have too, but theirs is more developed. they can feel an insect some meters away. now imagine if a device will be made that will improve it.what do you think?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=153164#p153164 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Well, Ive learned some new things about guide dogs just by reading these replies so thank you. My former roommate used a guide dog throughout the last few years of his life. His came from the Guide Dog Foundation for the Blind, and she worked out very well for the most part. He had to fly out there for training, and he was there for about 2 weeks. To be honest, I was pretty cool with being alone in the apartment throughout the duration of his training. I know that sounds a bit cruel, but he was quite crabby most of the time. Not just to me but to pretty much everybody. He could also be very friendly, but those times were far and few between. In fact, we always called him the loveable kermudgeon. It seemed as though he became a bit more friendly upon returning with the dog. But back to guide dogs. He honestly didnt say much about the training, but he really had a good time. I remember someone from The Hadley School for the Blind came to our apartment before the training, to shoot some photos of him walking around using his cane. Then a little while after the training, a representative from the Guide Dog Foundation for the Blind came out to assess the progress. My roommate had some pretty serious health issues though, which made it difficult if not impossible for him to take the dog out for her daily walks and to do her business in our backyard. But our neighbors were always glad to help out with that. One thing I do remember quite well though is that whenever he and the dog were walking together, I couldnt go along because he said it would distract her. He also was extremely careful not to give out her name in public. As a matter of fact he snapped at pretty much anyone who called her by her name. I obviously knew it as he told me right when he came back from training, and the other neighbors knew it. The staff of our organization also knew the dogs name, but I think thats all the people who knew it. Right after his p assing she was taken to live with a nurse who came and helped him out with all the meds, but I think she has since been sent back to the school.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=153177#p153177 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Okay, that is false. Guide dogs would be pretty much useless if other people couldnt be with you. If your guide dog school tries to tell you this, consider a different one. Ive heard of some schools saying that you shouldnt let people call them by name, but these are indirect stories and may not be true. Even so, the dog queues more into your tone, and not the word being used. Most, if not all pet dogs, do not come running when you say their name in conversation. Both are not true of guide dogs in general; perhaps some school, somewhere, teaches this for some reason. If I were getting mine, and they told me that I couldnt have other people walking with me because its distracting my dog, Id leave.Now, you can have an interesting thing where the dog decides that people you know well are not obstacles, but thats not something to avoid by not having them walk with you. I dont know why this is, but have seen it with both my dogs. Theyre not distracted; they just dont rate said person as an obstacle. This can be fixed and doing so isnt very hard, especially since you probably know them well enough to get a bit of cooperation. By people you know well, I mean parents or really close friends that youre going out with all the time, or people you live with. Eve so-this is not something that you should think is unfixable.And calling my dog by name, yeah, thats a no-no. Feel free to talk about my dog by name, even talk with me about my dog by name with the dog sitting next to me. Call it over, especially while its working, and youre getting a lecture of some sort.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=153181#p153181 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Okay, that is false. Guide dogs would be pretty much useless if other people couldnt be with you. If your guide dog school tries to tell you this, consider a different one. Ive heard of some schools saying that you shouldnt let people call them by name, but these are indirect stories and may not be true. Even so, the dog queues more into your tone, and not the word being used. Most, if not all pet dogs, do not come running when you say their name in conversation. Both are not true of guide dogs in general; perhaps some school, somewhere, teaches this for some reason. If I were getting mine, and they told me that I couldnt have other people walking with me because its distracting my dog, Id leave.Now, you can have an interesting thing where the dog decides that people you know well are not obstacles, but thats not something to avoid by not having them walk with you. I dont know why this is, but have seen it with both my dogs. Theyre not distracted; they just dont rate said person as an obstacle. This can be fixed and doing so isnt very hard, especially since you probably know them well enough to get a bit of cooperation. By people you know well, I mean parents or really close friends that youre going out with all the time, or people you live with. Eve so-this is not something that you should think is unfixable.And calling my dog by name, yeah, thats a no-no. Feel free to talk about my dog by name, even talk with me about my dog by name with the dog sitting next to me. Call it over, especially while its working, and youre getting a lecture of some sort.Edit for clarification: Calling my dog not by name is also bad. The point here isnt the name, its the calling.And also: Giving the dogs name out or not isnt going to make much difference from the dogs point of view. If someone looks at it and uses the doggie tone, thats just as good as calling it by name. It might avoid some social issues on the human side of things, but using a fake name/refusing to give out my dogs name is just avoiding things that arent, in the grand scheme of things, a big deal in the first place.Finally, do your homework before settling on a guide dog school. Theres a lot of differences between them.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=153181#p153181 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training @Camlorn, doing a route with a cane would strike me as unnecessary extra work given all of the other things youd need to learn, generally Ive found its usually just necessary to know where Im going, or at most to get someone to show me wwhere a praticular place is the once since then Reever will recognize it, even if it is a complex route down many turnings. Generally the stopping at turns thing is dependent upon the dogs personality than training. Reever is quite relaxed, thus when we do new routes shes quite prepared to take my lead on where to go and will expect it, but a more exhuberant dog will just charge off assuming! they know where to go originally, and thus you might run straight past an intersection in a building, though all British guide dogs are taught to stop when crossing streets even if it is a pedestrian pathway.I also dont necessarily agree on mobility situations where the dog would be extra work. Socially there mi ght be less convenient issues, such as happens with my brother, but ive never been in a mobility situation where Im actually expecting Reever to work where itd be easier without her. Im a little amazed at what you say about not seeing friends or family members as obstacles since thats not something Reever has ever done. Occasionally if shes not seen someone for a while shell want to go and speak to them, as happens when I go back to my parents, but thats understandable, however if Im say out walking somewhere with my friends or my parents and they stop but I wish to go back behind them and check something out, reever will be quite sensative to the commands back and forward and will go round just as she would around anyone else. Regarding dogs and names that one seems very weerd, though I disagree about dogs not knowing their own names, having grown up with multiple dogs who you could always call individua lly. Generally dogs dont recognize their names or other words in the middle of other sentences, though I have met dogs who can do this, (zia my mums guide dog knows when she is talking to me on the phone), but Dogs will recognize names at the ends of sentences at least as belonging to them, (I just tested this on reever myself by muttering a little and saying her name at the end of the sentence, she did react, raising her head to see what I wanted). Some dogs indeed can even recognize specific words when not aimed at themselves. my mum for example once saidto me while entering my room wheres reever where upon Zia, (my mums dog), went off and fetched her. Admitedly, Zia is the most intelligent dog Ive ever met, (a dog who can recognize bus stops and can open a draw and get something out on command), but it is possible. Id say it just depends upon how much you talk to your dog and how much your dog learns to listen to speci fic words and associate them with different concepts.It is true tone conveys a lot of meaning, command, reprimand, affection, but I dont think its correct to assume it is just! tone.Regarding speaking to dogs on the street and names, its not so much tone there as it is eye contact and indicated interest, irrispective of what a person says. Ive had occasions where Ive walked past someone saying hello in an affectionate tone to their dog and Reever hasnt bothered, but if someone speaks directly to her or looks at her shell naturally turn around to see what they want. This is why she has a dont destract me while Im working sign on her harnice. As to not letting people use your dogs name, that frankly sounds loopy to me. I also dont get the dont walk with people thing either, though guide dogs do tell you not to use the dog on harnice if your holding someone
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training No, no. I dont mean that I train the dog to do that kind of stuff. Definitely not. What I mean is, for example, that they tell us to reward them with food when we get to our destination (we use food now-I dont know if you do, and its a recent change at Guide Dogs). This gets them to show us the destination next time. If I always take a turn, I make a game of it at first-stop, reward, go back a few steps and do it again-and my dog picks it up within one or two days. hes clicker trained, which helps a lot; I taught my previous dog to lay on a specific side in a week (I used this for grooming). They get all of the basic stuff, and then we spend a day or two on how to teach them new things, including what we might want to teach them for those who dont see the use (crosswalk buttons, etc).I did not say that tone is exclusive, just that it is more important than the word in a whole lot of cases. If I yell t;good boy angrily a my dog, it sure isnt going to think that its a good boy, for example. They know the word-Im not saying they dont. Im saying that they also queue to the tone, perhaps more so (it doesnt much matter what I call my dog, to be honest...I can even leave off the name altogether and still elicit a response). if someone then adds in body language, thats an even stronger indicator. basically, what Im trying to say is, if someone wants to call your dog theyre going to be able to with or without the name.Situations in which the cane is better are rare but have been known to happen. I often leave my guide dog at home, for example, when going to the doctor as keeping hold of the leash in that situation is hard. We also get a lot of rain (and I mean a *lot* of rain, think standing in the shower sometimes) followed by really hot weather; this situation normally means bath day not too long afterwords, so sometimes he stays at home if the weather is exceptionally awful (this is why I want to leave Florida-we get great weather here, got to love that lightning). Ive left him home a couple of times for extremely long tests during which I wont be able to leave, as i cant get him outside (maybe once or twice in my life, not his). On the whole, hes with me 95 to 99% of the time; the remaining 1% to 5% does remain, however. I try to work in a bit of cane work just in case he were to become really ill, and because there will probably be a gap between dogs during which i have to use it. Since I know for a fact that my cane skills are much less than they used to be, I think a day or two a month maintaining them is probably worth it.I dont know what a pedestrian intersection is. I suspect we may be thinking of different things. My dog stops at all street crossings, and at anything that resembles one-there just isnt much that does here. I kind of wonder if the reason your dog is trained to show you more is because England is more regular. Since I dont have any sort of evidence to back up this statement, its probably untrue. I do think we do have wider extremes of climate, and theres large swathes of America that are basically small towns without sidewalks. Everything from blistering hot, fry an egg on the asphalt to below zero. Our dogs are taught to walk in the road in the event of no sidewalks, and the last time I went we spent at least two days on this. At least one student in the class this summer literally didnt have sidewalks anywhere at home. My college campus does not resemble a city in any way, and I can find lots and lots of turns that look nothing like intersections. To be honest, if I were to train my dog to stop like this, I dont know what pattern there is for my dog to pick up o n-there really isnt one at all. The reason they may not teach this kind of thing here may simply be that theres no good common ground that works for everyone, or even most people, or perhaps the turns your dog shows you fall out of the road intersection training without much extra work. Id be curious to know if England is more urban, or if it tends to have more regular cities, or what difference there might be, if any.Ive never heard of back. obviously, it means go back...that could be useful.Regarding the family and close friends not being obstacles, this is quite possibly something that just happens to happen to me, or possibly even something I inadvertently cause. Its the only thing i can think of that could be mistaken for distraction, though.As for using the cane for new routes, well, maybe thats personal taste. If I get completely lost, though, Id prefer to have that extra information. sp; It isnt really that much more to learn it with a cane, and Im not introducing new routes once a week; Im not even doing new ones once a month. Even with the cane, it only really takes once for me to get it. The routes I take are irregular, with all sorts of twisting and curving sidewalks, cutting through buildings, etc. i find it best to do it the once, so that I
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training You need to be at least 16, but probably18. Most guide dog schools in the states dont consider you until 18, though it is apparently possible to get one as young as 14.The thing with the cane skill sis this. I am speaking only off my experiences with GDB (which I would recommend to everyone-both my experiences with them so far have been great, and they take you seriously if youre under 18). Basically, they want to see a few things. Can you walk a route independently? Can you handle/are you afraid of being lost? They will let you get lost in training-its not unsafe or anything, but its also not a box. They assume that by the time you get to the point of wanting a dog, you can follow a route given directions, and then they have you do so for a couple weeks. Crossing streets are one of the things you need to know before getting one; they teach you how to do it with the dog, but that includes how to do it wi th a cane, which they wont teach you (the dog eliminates lining up, but only in most cases and not all, and you still need to listen for traffic appropriately). It wont eliminate the cane using. The thing with this is that the cane just naturally falls out of it, and good cane skills includes all of it. More important, or perhaps as important, is the ability to find landmarks with senses unrelated to the cane-guide dogs cause the conspicuous loss of feedback that youre probably used to.When they did my application, they asked me to walk an independent route, and then switched to Juno (fake guide dog via a harness and an instructor who knows how to hold it and fake being a guide dog, and somehow that sounds bad when written this way) for the way back. They then talked to my high school, but this was only because I was under 18 at the time.I dont know how it is in England, but here theyre all privately funded. I t hink this is why its harder to get one here (or at least sounds harder, given your descriptions). Given the cost of a single guide dog, Ive heard anywhere from $7 to $10, Im not completely convinced that it should be an easy thing. Also, I believe those numbers are per dog, whether or not it passes or fails, so its quite possibly even more than that.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=153036#p153036 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Well Camorn, in England it is slightly different. For a start, though the dogs themselves cost a lot, the organization is a charity and you technically get the dog for nothing or what you can contribute, indeed did you have to fund the cost yourself I certainly wouldnt have one.The way application works is you apply to the Guide Dogs organization (of which there is one and only one), for what is euphamistically called service and they do an assessment. You could get a dog, or you could be assessed for mobility training. Regarding getting a dog, their official youngest age is seventeen, though they will make exceptions, indeed I nearly had one at fifteen myself, but didnt at the time.During the application process basically your given a complete and very thorough assessment about your current travel and cane skills, how much you go out, what sort of schedule you have, (since theyre not going to give you a dog if you dont go anywhere ). This also lets them suit the dogs personality to you and what you need it to do. I for instance, because I vary from points when Im in all day to points when Im off on stage or swanning around the country, I needed a dog who was very very relaxed but would be equally happy working whenever I needed to, and who would be able to sit for a couple of hours on their own while I was busy rehearsing or at a conference, which is why I ended up with Reever.They do some minimal stuff like giving you a try out walk with another dog, and having the instructor do the prentend guide dog thing as part of the assessment, but generally that doesnt happen in actual training, its more to see if you can get on with a dog.You then wait until a dog turns up who seems to have the right personality, and until your application is at the top of the list, this can take around two years. Finally, you get your dog and literally are locked up for a month with training each day. When I say locked up I mean that literally, either your dragged off to a hotel thats been booked as a training center, or (as happened with me), your literally forbidden from going out anywhere. This doesnt stop until the instructor is satisfied that you A, have learnt to walk with the dog successfully, B, have formed an emotional attachment to your dog, and C, have done a variety of various things such as traffic training, (they have cars with super breaks and literally try to run you down), shopping, going to a cafe, night walks, busses, trains, underground trains etc.ve continued this since Ive finished with other objects.All of this is pretty dam intensive, though what I personally found most difficult was the fact that Reever really! didnt like me due to missing her trainer, though this changed over time and is sorted out now, (shes lying on my feet at the moment). Your not qualified basically unt il the instructor says so, which is usually a month for first timers like me, (I took slightly under), around three weeks if you have had a dog before, though Im told it can go as long as six weeks sometimes.After youve got your dog, basically Guide Dogs still retain a lot of rightts as an organization. They can come and do spot checks on you at a moments notice and reserve the right to take the dog off you if they think its being misstreated. They pay vet bills and even dictate what vets you use, (I had quite an arguement with them about this after I found the vet they recommended to be a dead loss who cent Reever back when she was still severely ill, particularly since their health officer in my area is a pillock). Some dog food companies also give! food for nothing, though this is dependent upon income. Of course, being essentially given a dog plus everything else confirms responsability, and guide dogs themselves really dont! take any excuse s, particularly if they believe your dog is being misstreated, indeed if there is a situation that worries you with your dog theyre a good organization to talk to. I actually have a lot of respect for guide dogs as an organization. While there are very occasionally less good individuals working for them hear and there, in general their ethos as an organization is very much against attitudes of helplessness, for all they do provide mobility training at any level (they have long cane instructors and I believe even independent living training though Ive never experienced such from them).On the subject of preexisting knolidge, I think with Guide dogs in the Uk (at least the way my instructor and my mums worked), its more the sense that they expect you to have a certain standard! of mobility, know how to cross streets, walk around your local area etc, than they have specific ideas about what you should! be doing. For example when I explained that I was more into land marks than mental spacial mapping, my instructor just never bothered with that. Likewise, he had no problem me using my risidual vision, smell, or whatever
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training I dont use the cane with my guide dog. Sometimes, I will use the cane instead. This serves two purposes. First, should my dog ever become sick, I can manage the cane still: use it or lose it, basically. Secondly, its a really valuable way to explore a completely unfamiliar environment, given that the dog isnt (or at least not from any school here that Ive heard of) going to tell me about turns that we *dont* take. I use the cane much, much less, but its still part of my life. They recommend keeping your cane skills up, at least a bit, in case your dog does become sick, and they do suggest keeping a cane with you for those times in which the guide dog would be a hindrance (finding a completely unfamiliar trash can or bench is one example they gave).I dont like the sound of your regulations. That sounds like its too government. This can be good or bad, and I think that it it just is in this case. Here, its all private. I dont pay for the dog, nor do I pay for food and/or living expenses when I travel to the school. Its all donations. We dont get locked in or anything, though. We cant take the dogs out with us until after graduation, but they dont stop us enjoying our visit if we so choose. Im not sure if youre saying youre not even allowed to leave with the cane. Also, we dont have variable classes: you either get it during class or not at all (most graduate. Failure rate for people once they make it to the class is low). No vet regulations here, nor pet store/food regulations, and no spot checks (the last one might be a good idea. The first two are overkill imho). It actually sounds like your application process is longer and harder, and I think it might focus on different things than GDBs, but not to a huge degree. Also, I ve only worked with one school; others vary widely.A random question. I heard that some school in Europe teaches only left turns (this came directly from my instructor at Guide Dogs for the Blind, so I have reason to believe its true). I want to say they said this is England. Have you heard of this one? Just mildly curious. Apparently, or according to GDB anyway, other countries do it differently by a lot in terms of what the dogs are actually taught to do/not do.Also, for those who are considering a guide dog, Id suggest exploring Blindsquare on the iPhone at the same time. Its amazingly useful in some situations, especially post-dog.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=153076#p153076 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Dark OM stands for Orientatio and Mobility. Most people just call it Mobility and leave it at that. But in the states the quality of your training definitely depends where you are. Unfortunately while all the rehab agencies Ive worked with over the years (and me being what we call a Navy Brat over here Ive experienced a lot of them), claimed to be of the opinion that we can live on our own, they seem to want us to do so on their terms. Where I live seems to be no exception given some of the comments Ive had from my current counselor. Then again theres a strong NFB presence in Idaho and some of the NFBs beliefs make me want to cringe. It doesnt help that a lot of rehab agencies have suc strict standards about what constitutes an acceptable job for a blind person.Most of them are focused on call center jobs, a field for which I know I would be horribly unsuited. Call centers, especially those dealing with spam? of any kind, seem to be magnets for the most pushy, demanding customers who decide they have a problem when they decide that something didnt go exactly the way they wanted it to, even if in actuality it did. So they call up wanting to blame the first person they speak to. I know myself, and while I like to think of myself as a generally even-tempered guy I know I have my limits. I would only be able to take being yelled and cursed at for so long before I said or did something that got me fired. The problem is that whenever something goes wrong for a blind person at their job, the majority of what I like to call Joke Rehab agencies often tend to blame the blind person, even if its manifestly clear that said blind person could not have been to blame. Ive spoken to a lot of blind people in differennt parts of the country over the years and one story that stuck with me particularly was a guy who got hired on at his local ATT store. Firstly you should know that the biggest reason he was hired had nothing to do with his qualifications, and he definitely had those. Ive come to the conclusion over the years that a lot of employers probably think that most of us just make up our resumes and make them look as good as possible with the help of our counselors. Well anyway, this fellow was hired on at ATT only because the interviewer made some comments that would have given the client legal leverage to sue them had they turned him down. My guess is he must have recorded the interview, otherwise they wouldnt have been so concerned. Whatever the case they pretty much had to hire him, but they found a way around that in time. What they did was simple. His supervisor just never bothered to give him any work to do, then turned arounnd and wrote him up for goofing off on the job. He got fired and in more or less typical fashion his counselor jumped down his throat.URL: http://forum .audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=153082#p153082 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training @Enes, that is a shame, though you might considder going to study somewhere else or going to a better city. as Ive said before this is why i moved from Nottingham to Durham. @Bryan, actually often disability professionals can be the worst in terms of prejudice. I dont know what Om stands for or what standing they have in the states, but Ive certainly met disability services people over here who treat disabled people over here like an industrial shepherd would treat sheep, part of their job to be pushed around, taken from place to place and dealt with practically.I once for instance had a disability services adviser at the university tell me Well disabled people arent the best judges of what they can and cant do and my brother had an adviser at another university tell him, (after hed already been accepted by the universitys law faculty and given an offer of a place), well we decide whether we can meet yo ur needs and if we cant we ask you to withdraw your application I also once had a mobility officer tell me Well you cant get on in the world without the charity of others this was the same idiot who told me there was no way of finding a particular turning off a path without counting steps or asking someone, despite the fact that if you just went past that particular turning two meters on was a cattle grid! I suppose its just a case of what your used to and what you expect. For this of course I was slightly lucky myself, since after all my mum and gran were both highly compitant at what they did, thus I started learning things like mobility and taking care of myself at a very young age and it was always expected! that I would end up doing what I wanted, living on my own etc. It is possible I might have got very sarcastic with that woman, since I do confess while I always try to tolerate peoples attitudes, sometimes wh en someone is overly stupid I do tend to react. A milder form I have used however when someone suggests something overly stupid in guise of being helpful is to simply ask them why? since usually if someone makes an assumption such as not being able to climb stairs with a visual imparement, or not finding the next bus, its because they havent thought about it.I often use this when people ask me is there anyone with you? when I go somewhere fairly inocuous such as on the train or to the theatre. no, why? well to help you? why, what for? Its quite amusing to actually force people to think about their statements and have to come up with reasons behind them, or to straight out ask you about the assumptions that underlie those statements. but you dont live on your own? actually I do, --- accept for reever but who doe s x y z Actually I do that myself Its irritating to have to do this again and again and again, but it is often necessary. Interestingly enough though, at my first ballroom dancing class last night, the girl who was my partner and was also teaching me the basic steps (her being an extremely experienced dancer), never once asked any sight based questions at all despite the fact that we have a very long conversation after the lesson. We talked about social science, my thesis, on stage performing, dogs, geography and various other things, but not once did she ask me how much I could see or how I did x y z.Then again despite being in her early 20s she was obviously quite experienced with the world generally, (she went out to Zambia to do performances), and we certainly didnt have the arms length reaction I usually get which was surprising.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152881#p152881 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training In the states, its interesting. The training you can get varies wildly depending on where you live. Its left to the specific school system for people of those ages, and theres a lot of organizations that you can pick from after that (or not-some places dont have more than one). the prevailing attitude, or at least the attitude that Ive seen, is that blind people can live on their own. Weve got a lot of organizations that make that their end goal, and theres at least one locally with a program in which you live on their campus and practice it with help from an instructor. On the other hand, my school system for the first 10 years or so, was overprotective and didnt have a clue; they wouldnt let us go off campus for OM training among other things (like not upgrading equipment, not providing funding, etc, etc, etc). I switched school systems for high school for personal reasons, and it was basically night and day in terms of mobility training quality (the new one had no problem with us, for example, going to the mall, doing training in your local neighborhood, etc, and that instructor was willing to do some stuff outside school hours as needed).If this is something you want (this is something you want), you can probably find good training. It might take some looking, researching, and asking around, but it does exist. All of the instructors Ive worked with (including the one from my elementary school--it wasnt her fault, it was the people above her) had to actually walk a route blindfolded in a major city; some of them actually got dropped off randomly and told to find their way back to some place (and thus didnt know the route). basically, keep looking-I promise people with a clue exist and want to teach you, somewhere.URL: http://forum.audiogames.ne t/viewtopic.php?pid=152907#p152907 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Interesting Camorn, especially about the blind campas idea, though as Ive said Im not a huge fan of specialist schools generally, indeed the independence training I supposedly recieved at the school i went to was a joke, particularly because it mostly involved them telling me that all the things my mum had previously! taught me to do were wrong because I didnt do it the way they said to. Since I was only ten at the time living on my own was never mentioned, but I do think there was some sort of expectation that students there wouldnt.Over hear indipendence training tends to be the counsels responsability, but equally charities like action for blind people and guide dogs exist who provide more specialist stuff, particularly if the counsel is useless, though those can vary according to attitude and according to the individual person involved. One worrying thing about schooling is while specialist schools are less common fo r visual imparements, (too much money for counsels to go on sending blind kids out of county to them), a recent more worrying method is basically to furnish every blind child a full time specialist support worker who walks around the school with them, sits in lessons and behaves like their personal prison warder. Needless to say, this doesnt make either for great social arrangements or for particularly good learning of independent skills such as getting around on your own.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152910#p152910 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Interesting Camorn, especially about the blind campas idea, though as Ive said Im not a huge fan of specialist schools generally, indeed the independence training I supposedly recieved at the school i went to was a joke, particularly because it mostly involved them telling me that all the things my mum had previously! taught me to do were wrong because I didnt do it the way they said to. Since I was only ten at the time living on my own was never mentioned, but I do think there was some sort of expectation that students there wouldnt.Over hear indipendence training tends to be the counsels responsability, but equally charities like action for blind people and guide dogs exist who provide more specialist stuff, particularly if the counsel is useless, though those can vary according to attitude and according to the individual person involved. One worrying thing about schooling is while specialist schools are less common fo r visual imparements, (too much money for counsels to go on sending blind kids out of county to them), a recent more worrying method is basically to furnish every blind child a full time specialist support worker who walks around the school with them, sits in lessons and behaves like their personal prison warder. Needless to say, this doesnt make either for great social arrangements or for particularly good learning of independent skills such as getting around on your own.The blindfold training sounds a bit crazy, just saying find your way at random without preparation, but the odd thing is that when its done properly, on people who are willing to listen its actually quite useful. My mum was once at a health service seminar about access for vi people in treatments, and basically setup a mock waiting room complete with other patience, lots of chairs everywhere and lots of noise. The nurses and other professionals who were invo lved with that were all given blindfolds and had to do what patients need to do for a checkup, go to the reception desk, get the reception desk, fill in their name and other details of the appointnment, then go and sit down and wait to be called to see the consultant, (which would be called out by the receptionist but also put up on the board), then find the door out to the consultants room.From what my mum said That really worked well, so well in fact apparently one woman got so petrified of not hearing the receptionists voice above the noise and not being able to see her appointment time posted on the board she actually took the blindfold off!Then again, my mum was extra nasty with that one, especially since the person she got to play the receptionist was apparently very good at being obtuse, can you just fill this in? .U RL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152910#p152910 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training I just tried looking up ESVI for my state and got a problem loading page. I think my state in general is about 20 years behind on this newfangled Internet thing. (The states NFB page is over a year out of date, the DSB page is even more so, and neither provides more than a list of phone numbers; no one involved answers emails, some of those numbers are out of date based on the voicemail messages I got when I tried some, etc).URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152919#p152919 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training dark, OM stands for Orientation and mobility. i was lucky to get a really good OM instructor. but the quality does vary wildlyURL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152927#p152927 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Thanks Kyle, that makes sense. it actually sounds like the counsel employed mobility officers over hear, they can vary hugely! Amusingly enough, the dire one I mentioned was once supposedly showing me a bus route. She at one point asked me in a rather patronising tone Where do you think you are? To which I replied I think Im on a bus! Amusingly enough one of my grans friends heard this exchange and reported it back to my parents and its now become something of a family joke.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152928#p152928 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Well, Im not talking about schools for a blind. This is a 6 week program, and youre not taking classes. Youre literally living on your own, sort of. I havent done it; it wasnt needed in my case. The idea is that you show up not knowing how to do stuff like cook, clean, and shop, and their instructors work with you. Youve basically got an apartment for the 6 weeks, and they work with you on whatever parts of it you have difficulty with. I dont agree with the blind-specific schools; thats just a bad, bad idea all around, but thats not what this is. Its essentially live on your own as a blind person summer camp, and a lot of people do it in high school in my area.As for being blindfolded--thats their final exam, as it were. They got a lot of other stuff before that. In order to pass, they had to be able to basically go from lost to not lost anymore (Im s ure with some sort of supervision to prevent mishap). This is apparently a common training exercise over here.Apparently, Guide Dogs for the Blind used to do it with their visually impaired students, but stopped for some reason or other (something about not having the time, or something) like 10 years or more ago. Just a fun fact.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152929#p152929 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Fair enough Camlorn, and I can see the advantage of those sorts of courses. I did once do one myself at a sort of outdoor pursuit center for a week, though that was more because A, I knew the lady who organized it had a reasonable attitude, (Id probably not have gone if shed not been involved), and B, I was more bothered about the rock climbing, canooing etc that was going on than the independence type stuff. I actually shocked a couple of the instructors when I first got there since I went to unpack, found that my bed wasnt made but sheets, pilllow case duvt etc was lying around so just naturally made the bed, only to have someone turn up a little later explaining that hed be sent to show me how (he was actually quite put out that Id done it first).this was sort of the way while I was over there, a lot of the things were things I just naturally got on with when I found the stuff was going, but it was nice to do some of the out door stuff and in fairness some of the people on the course really did need the training so I didnt mind.The only really major thing I learnt at that point was the recipe for chocolate truffles .URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152932#p152932 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Is that program by any chance called YES2?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152979#p152979 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training I had a fantastic OM instructor throughout fifth grade, junior high, and high school. Fifth grade was when my family and I moved to Illinois. This instructor came to the house to introduce herself, along with another instructor who worked with me and 2 other family members only for a brief period, before resigning from the local special education district for personal reasons. She was quite good though. Last I heard, she and her husband started their own consulting business. But the OM person is still working for the district. She is as I said a great instructor, and is highly regarded by many both in the field and outside. Her father co-founded the rehab program at the Hines V.A. here in Illinois. Ive often remarked to others that I only wish I could get her back again to teach me a few routes and such around here, since she is so good. But once I graduated high school, I was no longer eligible to receive services from that district. People have since approached m e about the possibility of receiving some services from them again though, but I dont know if theyd make an exception for me. I suppose its not out of the question though to approach them about it. But I highly doubt Ill ever be able to make any more progress with my state VR agency. Not only that, but I dont even want to approach them. They just screwed me over way too badly, and I really dont think they feel even one iota of remorse for doing so. I guess you could say I have severed ties with them, and dont wish to open old wounds. There is one rehab instructor there who is pretty cool, but he seems to have been brain-washed by his superiors. He taught me Vocal-Eyes though a number of years ago. That was at a Jesuit college prior to his employment at the VR agency. Regarding guide dogs, Ive heard that ones OM skills have to be top-notch prior to getting or even being considered for a dog.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152987#p152987 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Well jjgeek, I dont know how it is in the states with the way guide dogs work, but over hear you an apply to them at pretty much any point. Whether they decide to put you on the waiting list for a dog or have you see one of their own mobility instructors depends upon what they think, but certainly there is no reason not to apply, after all if you could do everything without a guide dog as well as you could with one, there would be no point having one in the first place, indeed one question on the application form is along the lines of what aspect of your mobility skills are you unhappy with that you think needs a dog I put crowds in this and open spaces, since however good my cane skills were, if I was in a crowded area it was too easy to become lost from my land marks and building line.I cant speak about the various agencies, but if you know where this good instructor was and she taught you for a while, maybe itd be worth con tacting her directly to see either A, if she was able to carry on with you or B, who shed! recommend you carry on with.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152992#p152992 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Lol about the whoops thing, I was walking at school the other day and someone bumped into me and went woop woop, I was basically half asleep otherwise I probably wouldve responded with something like the sound effects are really helping, keep that up!:. I regularly go to airports and fly, and its hilarius how pretty frequently one of the assistants who escort us to the planes thinks I need a wheelchair, I mean come on, were blind, apparently blindness affects the legs or something? I live basically out in the middle of nowhere so dont do much walking, but I think in spite of that I just generally suck at navigation, street crossings, sidewalks etc, though parts of this might be do to my hearing loss. One street I do have to cross has a tactile marker but its weird, so lining up can be a problem, and I tend to veer a lot, which is really annoying.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152808#p152808 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Lol wanderer, something I have been known to say to people is Its my eyeballs that dont work, my legs are fine! Lack of hearing could be a problem in street crossings there is no denying that, but I suspect it would just require more practice, same with the veering off. Actually, I wonder if someone could create an iphone gyroscope game which depended upon your ability to fase a given direction, not by audio,but by being told, then having to physically stand with the iphone in front of you and spin around. Say for instance something like that old Shelshock game, where you start at zero degrees north and need to fire a missile at an enimy target by turning your body to the correct amount, and got points on your accuracy, (no audio markers to help, just your physical movement), then after each shot the compass got reset so the way you were currently facing was zero north. That could be a great aide in practicing facing the right dir ection, and be quite tricky too if you added things like lots of different angles, need to do it quickly or take a number of shots in succession etc. Im not sure how precise the iphone gyroscope is, (maybe itd need aprones see monkey), but itd be a good way of using a game for something practically useful in reality, and could also be fun depending upon the plot, sfx etc.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152815#p152815 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training That card thing definitely sounds demeaning. Its bad enough when a sighted person whos never had experience with the blind suggests something like that, but an OM instructor? It reminded me of a two-day Greyhound trip I took two summers ago to visit a prospective significant other. For the first day or so of said trip I had the misfortune to sit next to an elderly lady who, apart from nagging the driver about every little thing at every turn, kept telling me I ought to make a big sign that says Im blind and wear it around my neck so people would help me from bus to bus. I had to really bite my tongue to keep from telling her she ought to make a sign that sas Im an idiot for even suggesting something like that.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152830#p152830 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training hi dark,well unfortunatly going somewhere else is not an option at the momentand I dont see the construction ending anytime soon the gas pipe placement is scheduled to continue at least another 2 yearsthis is the best possible sinario of coursepersonally I wouldnt be surprised if it lasted until 2017URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152832#p152832 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Hi.@dark.hahhahhahahhahahahhaha complain to the counsel,thats s funny. I dont know about you but where Im living, in Ealing London, UK, the counsel dont give a shit about us.My mobility instructor and I, tried to talk to a counsel member about a road that a lot of people have been complaining about, its one of those roads where traffic goes from left to right and on the far part of the road from right to left, so a kind of circle.Anyway, he didnt really listen, just said. yes I can understand your problem and when we told him to cross the road with a blind fold, would he do it? hell no! of course not, stupid idiot. What do you mean he could have got hit by a car? yeah but then maybe hed understand what we go through, oh right, hed not be able to report it to the counsel, because hed be in hospital.So yeah, counsel people arent that good where we live.Oh and dark, as for the falling down a whole, hahahahha. are you alright? man I would have been so pissed if someone asked me that, Id be like. hmm lets see now, no! no Im not alright! now why dont you come over here and I push you down into this whole, hmm? Okay maybe Id not say that exactly, but ga, can people get anymore stupid?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152621#p152621 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Lol dark, sounds quite unpleasant indeed. I have had similar experiences, but they usually involve me hitting my head on something lol. Anyway, on the topic of mobility, admitedly, my street crossing skills are poor. I have literally almost been run over about 5 times by gerks who run reds with no care in the world. Granted, at the time, i was living in a busy college town. I think i honestly have mortal fear of crossing busy streets due to my past experiences. I dont have a guide dog yet, but if i ever get one, ill have to learn how to do street crossings properly before starting guide dog training. I would certainly try to get a highly qualifyed instructor to show me how to do it safely, as the last lady had seemed like she didnt quite care whether i figured it out or not.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152622#p152622 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Hi.Kyleman: Thanks for mentioning the lanes. Thatll help a lot when it comes to explain things. Enes: [[wow]], that sounds really crazy. Sounds like youre living a place where people dont care about security at all, and accessibility is something which has never existed! Sounds like its something which the blind organisation have to work damn hard for years to make a culture change.What I would recommend is getting a guide dog, which can help you in all those siturations, where things are randomly changed. I dont see all those pipes, gabs and other dangerous things as the biggest issue, but rather the fact that people constantly build, change stuff and constantly build new buildings. As I understand this, a guide dog is really helpful in siturations like this.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152628#p152628 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training @Brad, I think you might have missunderstood my meaning with the councel. no, it is not possible to get the councel to actually build! a pedestrian crossing. My parents have been trying this in nottingham on a huge and particularly insane road that has 5 different carparks, two garages, and yet also a school and a play park, and we were honestly told well its not a priority unless someone has an accident what I meant however, is that if there is an existing! crossing which is bust, because governmental regulations are fairly strict about such things its possible to get it fixed, even if say it was just the rotary that didnt work, (Ive seen this happen in durham before).I didnt mind the are you alright? too much, since at least the chap was asking, however I really dont understand why people think you should calm down when youve just hurt yourself, especially when its due to some idiot who should know better, especially when you dont use any really serious swear words and just shout rather loudly as I usually do! .If someone asks me if Im alright usually Ill try to be at least vaguely civil (though on the hole occasion having just quite badly bruised my knee I was not really in a civil frame of mind), hence why I appologised to the pedestrian after I climbed out of said hole. The one comment that really does! piss me off when Ive just walked into something is woopse, why the hell do people think saying woopse is helpful? I have been known to give people some quite snarky answers over that one.Regarding running red lights Arq, well yes, there are plenty of idiots driving cars in britain as well, one reason why its necessary to be careful when crossing streets because some people just don t look where their going (really some drivers need blind mobility training), , however crossings do tend to be respected since a person could lose their license, plus most crossings have speed cameras. In britain the guide dog service also provide mobility and cane training as well as a dog, so if you applied for a dog but couldnt cross streets, they would do something about it, indeed its possible you wouldnt be approved for a dog until! you could cross streets without one.Bennifits of a guide dog really are huge though, especially in encountering the unexpected. indeed, even though my mum has more vision than me, can read large print and never used a long cane, she was persuaded to get a guide dog when she attempted to cross the street, behind one car that had just started off in the other direction without realizing that car had a toe rope to the supposedly stationary car she was crossing beside. This was just plane bad luck, since theres no way she wouldve seen the toe rope or picked it up with a stick if shed been using one, but she realized that a dog wouldve done owing to a dogs wider field of vision.In durham its not so much extra buildings that is the problem, as huge amounts of building work on the existing ones, and the fact that the city center has no pavements at all! this means often there is lots of scaffolding, and given that most pavements are very narrow (even where there are! pavements), this can make things quite complicated and mean a lot of going out into the road. I was quite happy using my cane for this, but it did take work, and I do confess unexpected encounters with bars at head hight or inconveniently tall bollards could be quite painful.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152638#p152638 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Dark wrote:The one comment that really does! piss me off when Ive just walked into something is woopse, why the hell do people think saying woopse is helpful? I have been known to give people some quite snarky answers over that one.that woops comment does really also piss me off. my reaction is mostly nothing, and I just continue doing what I was about to do, doing my best to ignore the one who randomly said: Woops! I mean, that could mean a lot of things, like a surprise if i bump into someone, if I go too close to someone while passing by, if I step close up to something which makes others nearly bump into each other or into objects to pass by me or something simular. I usually just ignore people who randomly says woops, simply because that doesnt give me any important information, and that woops reaction isnt really a ny communication related... So, why even react on a simple, and sometimes quite funny woops? Sometimes, I find it pretty fun when walking down the street, nearly bump into someone and people randomly says woops. Its like: Where did that come from? I sometimes find those random woopses pretty fun! Oh, that reminds me of something hylarious which happened a while ago: I was walking down the street in my own thoughts, but did paied attention to what happened around me. Someone came walking towards me, and I quickly stepped a bit to the left as soon as the person came near me. I dont know really what happened, but the man said woops, stepped to the right because he maybe didnt thought there was enough place on the street which I think there was, and then he crashed into a streetlight with a big bang! Dmn that sounded painfull, but really, really funny. He didnt got hurt much, but his reaction was so fun and undescribable. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152643#p152643 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Well Slj, I didnt mean people saying woopse to their own actions, eg, having to jump out of the way quickly like the man you mentioned. That is just an acknolidgement that you yourself have messed up, like if you dropped something by accident and said woopse The one that gets on my nurves is when I have actually walked into something or still worse fallen over something, and a random person responds with woopse! I remember once I was going up a small step but didnt notice the pavement had got totally monched up, perhaps due to some stones slipping. I completely fell over backwards and landed quite hard on my left hand which Id thrown at to save me, grazing it quite badly in the process. A man a few feet away said woopse I responded, (rubbing the blood from my hand), quite badly on that occasion, saying something like Oh thanks! Woopse makes this so much less painful! whe re upon the idiot buggered off. Ill freely admit when I injure myself Im not exactly the worlds most tolerant of people, though if someone is genuinely concerned Ill try to be.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152649#p152649 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training So in america, if your turning right, and the crossing is red, you can pretty much just ignore it? that just seems utterly loopy to me. In britain while some traffic might take a second stopping, and while you can wait for ages at a crossing (especially in a large city), during those few seconds that the cars get the red light and you get the green, when the bleeper is going everything should legally stop.When enes described open sewers as ones people jump, I sort of imagined a hole large enough for a person to fall down, and any decent guide dog would walk around that. If the open sewers are more sort of overflowing gutters that it would be possible to walk in (albeit your feet would get pretty disgusting), that might not be the case.As regards technology replacing a guide dog, well Im not as certain on that myself due to several major factors. Firstly is the question of adaptability. This is even something that I wonder about with self driving cars, sin ce while I could quite imagine a car that could drive along a normal width road staying away from traffic (especially a regular road like a motorway), I do wonder how a self driving car would find a parking space or negotiate around unexpected obstacles, like tiny country lanes with no propper demarkation or obstacles on the road itself such as road works. And remember walking around pavements is a far more diverse environment than a road with a lot more factors to take into account. Also remember dogs have the same abilities of abstract association that humans do. Thus, if I tell reever to find a counter, she looks for anything that appears to be vaguely table shaped with someone standing behind and a queue of people in front of it (or not). Ais are fine at distinguishing objects with preset categories, but to distinguish an object from a background based just! on desired detail in a totally uncontrolled environment is a very difficult thing for an ai to do, esp ecially with the hundreds of other things that a guide dog does quite instinctively like walking around people, judging positions of moving and none moving obstacles, making instant distance judgements etc.Then of course there is the more basic and fundamental fact. Dogs can walk!Just look at how nasa spend millions on developing a martian rover with catapiller tracks, then dump it on mars only for it to slip a wheel in the first pot hole it comes to. Even n a city, ground is not universally flat, and there are occasions when youll need to go over things that even miniature tank tracks would have trouble with, (plus I dont think people would appreciate your guide tank running over their lawn!).So were a long way from even creating something as good as a guide dog, let alone better. Myself, I think sat navs will become far more majorly used, and specifically vi orientated sat navs updated instantly with map information about road w orks, shop positions and the like, much as the google glass is doing. I could also imagine more software assistance on things like reading shop signs, telling colours of road signs etc, but Im less certain an actual physical guide is in the works, well not until weve actually developed a completely humanoid robot anyway .URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152672#p152672 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training hi dark,well the problem with walking on the building line is there is even! construction there as wellI know for a fact because I was walking down town with a family member and there was a massive 3 m deep hole running along the streetaditionally just on the building line there was a workman with a jackhammer digging up the curb area in front of the buildingprobably to replace the watermain or the rain water pipeI know for a fact he was on the building line since we passed 2 m from himand I stepped over the cord of the jackhammer and I stuck my arm into the long hole which was far away from the workman and I saw the waterpipe so probably not a good idea to fall inside that holeslj, the problem here is not constant building. the problem here is infrustructure needs replacingheres what happened in a summerywe dont have natural gas in the city I live in so the company who won the contract for the gas began its work in may 2013they began digging up the middle of the city to place the main gaspipesthey had to dig vary deep in order to place the 1000 MM pipesthen the minucipality said heck, you opened up the asphalt so our pipes also need replacing so they also joined in then they said, oh why not replace the 70 year old rusted rainwater pipes while were at itthen they decided to change the sewage pipes and check for leaksthen the power company decided to cover its wires with plastic and relocate some other wires and transformers and finally the telecom company decided to lay fyber cables so basicly they are trying to hit many birds with one stonepavement costs money so they are renewing infustructure so they will never need to open up the brand new pavement againalso all these projects caused accidents once apparently one of the trucks which was digging burst a watermain they switched off the downtowns water for at least 4 days while they tried to replace the damaged pipealso sometimes they turn off water for security reasonsbecause of this I dread the day when it will be my neighborhoods turn to go through all the projects and before the gas they were installing pump stationsalso the power company was pulling all wires and transformers undergroundso thats why there were holes for yearsand dark, falling down a hole sounds like a terrible experience A friend of mine fell down a transformers former hole in my middleschools garden onceit was 2 m deepand he had some teachers pull him outhe said he was surprised when he was walking around all at once he found himself in a deep holeURL: http://foru m.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152682#p152682 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Dark: Oh I got your point regarding woops. Im sorry that I totally missed your point the first time. Enes: [[wow]], sounds like a terrible place. Well, I would still recommend either very effective use of the cain, or a guide dog.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152703#p152703 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Ive said everything that I have to say on self-driving cars in the past, and will not repeat all of it here. We already have self-parking cars available for purchase. I think you should research it, Dark. Theyre likely to be the innovation of the decade. AI is a lot further along than you think. Before dismissing the whole idea of electronic replacements to guide dogs, research things like Deep Blue (beat the best chess players in the 90s) and IBM Watson (can beat the best Jeopardy players, and it gets the questions in actual English the same way they do. Now apparently on the market for extremely large universities, because a lot can be phrased in that format). Electronic guide dogs will be completely possible in my lifetime; it is only a question of when. Either way, the topic is another thread entirely.And food for thought. My guide dog costs somewhere around 10 dollars. Guide Dogs for the Blind spends $32 million a year. We could put that money towards neural research and develop implants, or put it towards electronic devices for navigation. I love my guide dog and dont see myself switching back, but with that kind of money, we could crack one or the other of these problems in 10 years.And back to your regularly scheduled non-philosophical and non-scientific thread...As for right on red, i dont know all the specifics of that law, but pretty much. I think the crosswalk *might* make it such that they are required to stop, but in practice not really. you just get used to it-the light has changed, hold for a second to see if theres going to be anyone turning right, and then cross. College complicates this, of course--you get left on red, forward on red, and hey Im drunk drivers from time to time. It sounds like a big deal but isnt; most people will see you and slow down. Even so, it is an extra complication.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152705#p152705 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training i just found it funny dark that you said guide tank. lol. gave me a good chuckle. unfortunetly you wouldnt be able to arm it lol. ahahahahahaha. might brake a few lawsURL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152763#p152763 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
[Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Hi everybody. Im wondering if this has happened to any others in the United States and if so, what did you do about it. To cut right to the chase, I have been denied formal OM instruction until I get a good paying job. I actually approached my states Client Assistance Program awhile back about this, and they opened up a case for me. After some negotiations took place, an OM instructor called me and we set up a time when she could come out and do the necessary paperwork and assess me. Well, she came out and we filled out the necessary paperwork. Id say there was a little less than I expected, but still given the sort of training it was to be there probably shouldnt have been anything to fill out. One of her questions was what was one thing I felt we needed to work on together. My answer was street crossings, i.e., knowing when its safe to cross. The streets in my area are very busy. So she then took me on a walk around the block in order to a ssess my cane skills. She was very impressed with those. After all, I have been a cane user since I was little and I am now 39. I think its safe to say that my cane skills are very good. So after assessing those she and I began working on a street crossing, one which I think is pretty difficult even for someone with perfect eyeballs because there is so much traffic. Aside from the possible installation of an accessible pedestrian signal, the one and only solution she had for me was a card. Yes, a single card, which she had laminated. On that card was Im blind, could you please help me cross the street? The exact wording might be a bit off, but you get my point. She had me practice with that card. The first couple of times she acted as the sighted passer-by whom I was to ask for help. Then, she had me do it on my own and she just waited patiently at the other side of the street. I had to basically hold the card out straight, with my elbow slightly bent, so tha t someone would see and hopefully approach me. Id say that people around here are for the most part very friendly and willing to help out when necessary. This is most certainly true of the other people living in my building, and of the past residents here. However, as with anything this solution is not perfect. So I think what Im also wondering is, how do others in these pages feel about the solution which I have just described? Additionally, how do you cross the street safely? For those of you who rely on accessible pedestrian signals, just how effective are they? Oh and btw, that instructor only worked with me for about 3 lessons and then abruptly stopped.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152512#p152512 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Im not overly worried about street-crossings (though its been rare that Ive ever needed to cross busy streets, and all the crossings Ive come upon naturally have been nowhere near an intersection, making it hard to get a good estimation of when traffic is mostly parallel). Im... not sure how I feel about the card. :-/It is something that seems to improve with practice, though, so its kinda lame that your instructor up and vanished after only three lessons.Im more worried about the fact that I dont live in a pedestrian-friendly area, and dont know where anything is. Im at least a mile from the nearest sidewalk, and public transportation here only just exists (a couple taxi companies with bad online reviews and some new buses that appear to be aiming to obey the letter of the ADA and not an iota more). If I go beyond the boundary of this property, Im pretty much lost (and probably in the middle of the str eet and/or a pack of coyotes).URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152520#p152520 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Hi.Now I dont know the place where you live in the US, but when it comes to cross streets, that depends on many things.1: are there sound indicators on the trafic lights so you can hear when you have to go?2: If there are many people around, a card shouldnt be needed because you can just ask someone if they wanna help you to cross the street.3: How big is the street? How many tracks are there? I dont know how big streets usually are in the US, but if you have to cross more than 4 tracks or what they are called, then it sounds pretty difficult.I have some tips which Im not sure on how to explain before I know more about the streets, accessible trafic lights etc.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152530#p152530 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training well firstly that bit about only getting mobility training if you have a job sounds frankly insane, do sighted people only leave the house if they are employed?I do confess where mobility is concerned, I have been lucky. I learnt my basic cane skills from a counsel mobility instructor who was very good when I was about 11, though after she left her replacement was a dead loss. Fortunately, once Id got the technique correctly, my mum, (who has never been a cane user but is visually impared with more usable vision than me, and has a guide dog), was able to provide route information by walking a specific route and finding landmarks and useful stuff like pedestrian crossings, something Ive later learnt to do.Regarding crossings specifically, well I personally would never use such a card as Camlorn said, its a recipe for looking and feeling like a helpless blind person, and would not rely on asking a pedestrian at all, after all you cannot rel y on someone to be there, and why the hell should you always wait on the convenience or charity of a random stranger? I can see it now, you arive into work at ten O.clock oh sorry boss, there was nobody to ask to cross the road for me and Ive been standing at the curb for an hour! Im sorry if this sounds harsh, but to be honest that instructor sounds like an utter fool, even aside from her just buggering off and leaving half done, and having people be taught helplessness always gets on my whick!Myself, I would either A, find a pedestrian crossing to use, even if it took a longer walk, (I have been known to walk 15 minutes out of my way just to find one), or find a way around using smaller side roads that are! possible to cross.Usually one or other option is available, and in those cases where it isnt, thats when to take a taxi.Regarding crossings, well on a small road hearing traphic is something to get used to. Pelicon crossings in the Uk at least are no problem, since they have tactile (and if you have usable vision brightly coloured), markers in front of them, and either a bleeper or a rotary to tell you when to cross. Since the tactile marks are along the edge of the pavement its not possible to be facing wrong, though if your crossing to an island in the center of the road it might be good to get to know the pavement configuration and where to stand relative to the pavement to face the right wayjust in case, (there was a three lane intersection with an island crossing at the bottom of the hill that I used to cross four or five times a day when I lived in colidge).If pedestrian crossings in the Us lack the tactile markers, you could align yourself relative to the crossing box with the button.Zebra crossings in the Uk can be a little more problematic, since essentially thats just a designated area to cross the road meaning hard concentration is a lot more necessary, bu t still a zebra is better than nothing since at least car drivers know they need to stop.Practice of course and getting confident is a good idea. Id recommend finding a convenient route and doing it, either with an official instructor or just with a friend (if youve got the cane skills you should be okay). Then when youve done this several times your memory and abilities will improve and youll be able to do it more often. I found once I got to university and I was having to walk for a couple of miles each day just to get to my department, my skills at over all mobility massively improved and I got far better at recognizing what Id need! to know to determine other routes for myself if someone walked with me first. Of course,as with anything and everything to do with mobility, crossings are easier with a guide dog, since the dog will A, always find a crossing box or tactile markers meaning you dont have to concentrate, and B, wi ll always align to islands in the middle of the road without a problem, though of course knowing when! to go is still mostly your responsability, and even now I have reever Id always look for pedestrian crossings where possible rather than trying to run across a motorway, indeed even more so since while I wouldnt mind pegging across a main road with my cane (which I have done some times when late or otherwise exhasperated), it djust not be fair to expect that from Reever.Of course, guide dogs arent a good idea for everyone, but its something Id recommend if you think you could, since even for me, a major long cane user for 18 years, having a dog makes a massive! difference in the amount of work and energy it takes to get anywhere.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152557#p152557 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Well, yes. I just got my second guide dog (my first literally couldnt keep up due to a major lifestyle change). We basically jog everywhere these days-I beat my sighted peers. I may be the exception in this department, and am on the fast side of guide dog travel. I cant say how amazing it is in crowds, and roads are much easier.As for intersections-Ive got a fun one. Because of the location, its sometimes a three-way, sometimes a four-way, and sometimes not actually one. It depends on what events the university has going on today, so basically I dont know until I get there. Even lining up for it is a challenge (with a cane-the guide dog makes it a snap, but Ive done it with both), and theres no auditory crosswalk button. Pressing it theoretically makes an difference, but were talking about college drivers so...yeah, and I dont even bother these days (I do not advise this. sp; This particular case is incredibly, incredibly atypical. Use the crosswalk button). Lets just say that each day poses a unique mobility-related adventure.Either way, its definitely more than possible. Stick with it-if you have to wait for someone to help you, youve done something wrong. Getting help, when such is viable, is not a bad idea-just dont limit yourself to only crossing with help.As for the must have a job requirement. Mobility training is a prerequisite to getting employment in most cases, so someone needs to reevaluate that part of it. You cant get a job if you cant get to work. That is all.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152585#p152585 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training i agree cam and dark. as far as the card goes, that is an udderally stupid and completely ridiculous idea. your not learning anything. all your doing is telling the world that i am a helpless blind person and i can only cross the street if i have someone sighted guide me across. let alone the fact that you might not have a sighted person to help you. hence the situation dark mentioned above.you want to line up with the parallel traffic. which is easier than it sounds. like people have mentioned before the biggest problem is right on red, and whether or not you will have islands to navigate. but it is very doable.SLJ, in america tracks are called lanes.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152602#p152602 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training hi,ok so I need help with the same type of mobility issuesso I live in a small city in turkeythe city here is almost 0 accessable for the blindsince 3 years there have been infurstructure projects all over my cityinstalling pump stations, replacing sewage pipes, replacing electrical wires, replacing the asbestos water pipes we have, replacing the rainwater pipes and most recently installing natural gas pipelines since we dont have it currentlymainly because of this I cant go anywhere independantly due to ditches all over the groundand due to the natural gas pipe placement they have removed almost all curbs so there is almost 0 indication that you are coming up onto a street and the curbs that are there usually have large holes in them and I forgot that the crews who unclog sewers usually leave the grates open even sighted people have trouble getting across those sewerssince they are pretty much in the way people hop across the open sewersalso the only transportation I could possibly get is a city bus which doesnt have regular stopspeople get off randomly during the root of the busand no audio anouncement of the stops unlike large cities like ankaraand there are usually no audio indications of traffic lights and no tactil marks on intersections I have had cane training in middle school and know how to use a cane I will begin university in another yearwhat do you guys recommend I do in this situationURL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152607#p152607 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training hi,ok so I need help with the same type of mobility issuesso I live in a small city in turkeythe city here is almost 0 accessable for the blindsince 3 years there have been infurstructure projects all over my cityinstalling pump stations, replacing sewage pipes, replacing electrical wires, replacing the asbestos water pipes we have, replacing the rainwater pipes and most recently installing natural gas pipelines since we dont have it currentlymainly because of this I cant go anywhere independantly due to ditches all over the groundand due to the natural gas pipe placement they have removed almost all curbs so there is almost 0 indication that you are coming up onto a street and the curbs that are there usually have large holes in them and I forgot that the crews who unclog sewers usually leave the grates open even sighted people have trouble getting across those sewerssince they are pretty much in the way people hop across the open sewersalso the only transportation I could possibly get is a city bus which doesnt have regular stopspeople get off randomly during the root of the busand no audio anouncement of the stops unlike large cities like ankaraand there are usually no audio indications of traffic lights and no tactil marks on intersections I have had cane training in middle school and know how to use a cane but my mobility has degraded I will begin university in another yearwhat do you guys recommend I do in this situationURL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152607#p152607 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training Hi.Im sorry I cant help much apart from saying, I hate the idea of a card. It screams Im blind help me! I really really hate the card idea.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152610#p152610 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training
Re: Regarding Lack of Formal Independent Outdoor Travel Training @Camlorn, one thing I love about having a guide dog is that I no longer need to walk slowly. I always walked at moderate speed with a cane, but with reever I no longer need to do this which is great indeed. What is this red on the right? thing. As I said, in the uk crossings have red and green lights, but there is nearly always an audio or rotary signal, indeed if there werent you could write to your local councel and complain since such things are a legally required. Of course, I do also have the advantage of being able to see the lit up sign on the box itself, even though (other than at night), I couldnt see the actual light across the road, but still you dont need to do this. @Enes, lack of pavements and building works are a pain in the arse. Walking along the building line and sweeping with your stick is the only way I suspect, and you would have to concentrate dam hard to make sure the building items werent moved around, but t hat situation does sound pretty insane. Perhaps a satnav could be used with the bus? Again though, it wouldnt be a problem with a dog. Id recommend learning a couple of useful local routes and trying them out, since if you have a roler tip on your stick and concentrate you should be able to find stuff, though hopefully when you go to university the environment will be easier to manage, since it is true that the more chaotic an environment is the harder it is. I once had a hilarious episode in which I fell down a four foot hole near colidge. Id been into town, and when I got back to outside colidge and crossed the road to find myself hitting a barrier. Well I turned right to walk along one side, hitting it with my cane because I was out in the road, then suddenly bam! the soil went under my foot and I fell about four foot downwards taking the barrier with me and landing solidly on my knee ontop of the barrier. This was because the stupid idiots had put the barrier across the top! of the hole rather than actually along the side.What was hilarious was the passer by reaction. As usual when I hurt myself, (especially when not my fault), I started swearing extremely loudly. A pedestrian whod seen what happened walked across and their first words to me were: are you alright? alright! no I am not! bloody alright! oooh calm down calm down! Ive just fallen down a bloody! sodding! hole! Then while swearing profusely I clambered out. I did in fact appologise, before hobbling off to colidge to lie down and get some ice.Calm down? what do people really expect you to say? oh fiddle dee deE how jolly strange? I seem to have toppled into a jolly old hole in the ground? well I say! isnt this spiffing! .URL : http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=152614#p152614 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
