Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? You can always check what is using a lot of memory in the task manager, but no, NVDA normally should not use a lot of Ram. This can however depend on what addons you have installed as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560569/#p560569 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? nvda.exe; PID: 58796; Status: Running; User name: bcros; CPU: 01 ; Memory (active private working set): 36,524 K; UAC virtualization: Disabled 92 of 271nvdaHelperRemoteLoader.exe; PID: 51508; Status: Running; User name: bcros; CPU: 00 ; Memory (active private working set): 44 K; UAC virtualization: Disabled 92 of 269 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560576/#p560576 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? Unfortunatly NVDA is much more CPU intensive, due to the developers hell bent determination to support legacy technologies and apps, such as office 2007. NVDA is also a 32 bit application. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560620/#p560620 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @4, the bitness of an app does not determine its CPU usage. High CPU usage is explainable via many, many factors: code optimization, poorly-written code, a poorly-written runtime, etc. In this case, I would say (though cannot say for certain) that high CPU usage could be caused by the addons that are running, and the GIL of Python may have something to do with it as well. But there are so many factors that could influence CPU usage for a program its hard to say precisely what it is, but bitness is definitely not one of those factors. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560624/#p560624 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @4, the bitness of an app does not determine its CPU usage. High CPU usage is explainable via many, many factors: code optimization, poorly-written code, a poorly-written runtime, etc. In this case, I would say (though cannot say for certain) that high CPU usage could be caused by the addons that are running, and the GIL of Python may have something to do with it as well. But there are so many factors that could influence CPU usage for a program its hard to say precisely what it is, but bitness is definitely not one of those factors. Additionally, legacy components also do not determine CPU load -- or if they do they have a very minor influence. Bitness can, however, determine whether the application can take advantage of CPU features like SSE4, AVX, AVX2, AES-NI, PAE and so on, however I significantly doubt many of the newer features in modern processors would speed up NVDA; it may even slow it down some (e.g.: SSE/AVX/AVX2 primarily deals with packed floating point and integer operations, which is used in audio and video codec/dSP environments, for instance, which NVDA would not benefit from). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560624/#p560624 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @4, the bitness of an app does not determine its CPU usage. High CPU usage is explainable via many, many factors: code optimization, poorly-written code, a poorly-written runtime, etc. In this case, I would say (though cannot say for certain) that high CPU usage could be caused by the addons that are running, and the GIL of Python may have something to do with it as well. But there are so many factors that could influence CPU usage for a program its hard to say precisely what it is, but bitness is definitely not one of those factors. Additionally, legacy components also do not determine CPU load -- or if they do they have a very minor influence. Bitness can, however, determine whether the application can take advantage of CPU features like SSE4, AVX, AVX2, AES-NI, PAE and so on, however I significantly doubt many of the newer features in modern processors would speed up NVDA; it may even slow it down some (e.g.: SSE/AVX/AVX2 primarily deals with packed floating point and integer operations, which is used in audio and video codec/dSP environments, for instance, which NVDA would not benefit from). The fact that its written entirely in Python and not cythonized (I don't think anyway) has a major influence on its performance, but not CPU load. If NVDA used a custom runtime (which it doesn't) you could blame it on bad asynchronous task scheduling algorithms, but since it doesn't that's not a valid complaint. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560624/#p560624 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? I suspect poorly optimized code, or memory leaks are contributing a lack of responsiveness there was just a code commit merged a few days ago to stop NVDA from freezing in word, and to stop it from becoming unresponsive when typing. These issues were present at least since 2017. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560672/#p560672 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? I suspect poorly optimized code, or memory leaks are contributing a lack of responsiveness there was just a code commit merged a few days ago to stop NVDA from freezing in word, and to stop it from becoming unresponsive when typing. These issues were present at least since 2017. I would argue though bitness has a noticeable impact on performance. Windows runs all 32 bit apps in an emulation layer on 64 bit, and this would inevidibly introduce latency, which could conceivably have a performance impact. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560672/#p560672 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? Latest alpha versions are a major performance improvement, at least on my machine. Almost all the issues I had with it's performance are gone. One of them being that if NVDA is playing progress beeps and speaking at the same time, the speech would crackle. Now that is gone, and the navigation is faster in general. As for legacy technologies, there is nothing wrong in supporting them as long as it does not cause any other issues. When grammar error support was advertised for Word and it crashed NVDA on Windows XP, the feature was reverted, but the XP support was removed after that and the grammar error reporting was re added. Same would happen if something else that is important does not work on older software. People still do use Office 2007, in fact it was in my school until very recently, and I can only imagine that it is even more present in developing countries, which is a huge percentage of NVDA's users. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560679/#p560679 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? NVDA is technically a hybrid app, employing both 32-bit and 64-bit components. The main executable, 'nvda.exe', is a 32-bit python bundled application. The other process, 'nvdaHelperRemoteLoader.exe', is a 64-bit cpp executable. They communicate with each other, and both have associated tasks, the specifics of which are outside my understanding. The only reason I even know this tidbit is because someone who works closely with NVDA developers, and who is a seasoned add-on developer explained it to a group of people, among which I was a part. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560692/#p560692 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @6, no, bitness does not contribute much to performance degradation. Windows does not emulate 32-bit; the processor does (this is called IA32E mode). Windows and Linux have this identical functionality, and what thee layers do is translate 32-bit and 64-bit pointers back and forth, plus types and such. Its a ridiculously over-complicated subsystem, but it does work, but the pointer transformation does not have much overhead, and the overhead it does have is not noticeable without benchmarking the code.@8, yeah, that's definitely true. I should look into the code and write up a technical specification for it in case people want to understand it but aren't familiar with things like RPC (which I suspect is used here). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560706/#p560706 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? +1 for using latest alpha builds of NVDA! It's not as scary as it used to be and overall performance boost is really there. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560795/#p560795 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @ManFromTheDark, Plus another one. The latest alpha of NVDA JP. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560823/#p560823 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @4App support in NVDA doesn't cost us anything, even for really old apps. Those parts of the code aren't usually active unless the app is open. Overall in programming, "we support x" is free if you're not using x. NVDA only turns on support for old apps when it detects that they're running and, often, only when they're focused for the first time.@6As established, Windows doesn't actually emulate the processor for 32 bit apps. All that's handled is a 32-bit to 64-bit conversion for calling the Windows API itself. But through a whole bunch of black magic that only people who have gone as low as assembly and OS kernel stuff can even begin to talk about, the cost, if any, is fractions of a percent at worst.@ethinPretty sure 32 bit apps get access to at least AVX and AVX2 with a couple limitations and a different encoding scheme.I don't know why Intel keeps improving 32-bit support, but so far as I know we don't yet have any desktop-level instruction set extensions which aren't available in 32-bit mode.Also, ironically, 32 bit programs can actually run faster. Much faster in some cases. Look into Linux's X32. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560851/#p560851 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @12, I find that... really, really weird. And it almost sounds too hard to believe. I suppose it makes sense because, if you really want to be pedantic, the processor has less data to operate on (e.g.: 4 bytes instead of 8), as well as a smaller address space. I seriously wonder if its because the microcode for 64-bit native operation might be mis-optimized some way and the 32-bit code is better optimized? I don't know... that just seems really weird to say that 32-bit code is potentially much faster than 64-bit code. I'd blame it on paging if it weren't for the fact that 64-bit mode requires paging, and X32 mode can't bypass that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560867/#p560867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @12, I find that... really, really weird. And it almost sounds too hard to believe. I suppose it makes sense because, if you really want to be pedantic, the processor has less data to operate on (e.g.: 4 bytes instead of 8), as well as a smaller address space. I seriously wonder if its because the microcode for 64-bit native operation might be mis-optimized some way and the 32-bit code is better optimized? I don't know... that just seems really weird to say that 32-bit code is potentially much faster than 64-bit code. I'd blame it on paging if it weren't for the fact that 64-bit mode requires paging, and X32 mode can't bypass that.Of course, the black magic to emulate 32-bit code on 64-bit systems is... less than ideal and ridiculously messy -- so messy that kernel developers have dicsussed its removal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560867/#p560867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @12, I find that... really, really weird. And it almost sounds too hard to believe. I suppose it makes sense because, if you really want to be pedantic, the processor has less data to operate on (e.g.: 4 bytes instead of 8), as well as a smaller address space. I seriously wonder if its because the microcode for 64-bit native operation might be mis-optimized some way and the 32-bit code is better optimized? I don't know... that just seems really weird to say that 32-bit code is potentially much faster than 64-bit code. I'd blame it on paging if it weren't for the fact that 64-bit mode requires paging, and X32 mode can't bypass that.Of course, the black magic to emulate 32-bit code on 64-bit systems is... less than ideal and ridiculously messy -- so messy that kernel developers have discussed its removal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560867/#p560867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @12, I find that... really, really weird. And it almost sounds too hard to believe. I suppose it makes sense because, if you really want to be pedantic, the processor has less data to operate on (e.g.: 4 bytes instead of 8), as well as a smaller address space. I seriously wonder if its because the microcode for 64-bit native operation might be mis-optimized some way and the 32-bit code is better optimized? I don't know... that just seems really weird to say that 32-bit code is potentially much faster than 64-bit code. I'd blame it on paging if it weren't for the fact that 64-bit mode requires paging, and X32 mode can't bypass that.Of course, the black magic to emulate 32-bit code on 64-bit systems is... less than ideal and ridiculously messy -- so messy that kernel developers have discussed its removal.Edit: as that article notes, the extra performance is gained by the Linux kernel exposing 64-bit CPU registers and other features to code that runs using the X32 ABI. This is not 32-bit code emulation, however: "The Linux x32 ABI as a reminder requires x86_64 processors and is engineered to support the modern x86_64 features but with using 32-bit pointers rather than 64-bit pointers. The x32 ABI allows for making use of the additional registers and other features of x86_64 but with just 32-bit pointers in order to provide faster performance when 64-bit pointers are unnecessary." In other words, I don't think that the code is necessarily 32-bit but that the pointers are. The code could even be a combination of 32-and 64-bit code. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560867/#p560867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @13The point about pointers in this context is actually so relevant that I'm reasonably sure I could write synthetic benchmarks for Windows that had 32-bit programs which only do algorithmic things (i.e. no kernel calls) which are anywhere from 10% to 30% faster than the same source compiled as 64-bit in a day or two. This isn't my area of expertise; someone whose area of expertise it is can probably do so faster. To give you some idea, the V8 people went way out of their way to do pointer compression and got very impressive results, including CPU performance increases.This is now going to get so technical that it's beyond most people on this site and certainly beyond the scope of Off Topic. But there's no real penalty for being in 32-bit mode save the missing registers--and for most C programs, that's not really a problem. You kind of have to be doing tons and tons of math in just the right way to feel that pain. But the thing is that a cache miss is upward of 100 cycles, on processors that can do something like 8 math operations per clock cycle. And most programs, the ones that don't specifically design for cache friendliness, are going to have tons and tons of pointers. It's like doubling your internet bandwidth. The prefetchers get significantly more bang for their buck. The caches get significantly more bang for their buck, too. For most programs, you're doing tons of jumps and storing lots of pointers. These days the gap has kind of closed, it would certainly be harder than it used to be, but that's only because modern caches are really really big, and it could certainly still be done with some ingenuity. What I can say is that if you have an array of 64-bit integers vs. an array of 32-bit integers plus an offset that you need to add to all of them, the array of 32-bit ints will almost certainly be faster, up to the point where the program is doing enough operations between elements to hide the prefetch of the next chunk, which is honestly way more than you'd think it is.Something like Synthizer would rather you use 64-bit processors with it, but even there the difference is really slight, and this is only the case because I am putting some thought into these issues. At some point there'll be benchmarks for Synthizer and then I guess we could have actual numbers, but there's kind of no point. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560877/#p560877 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @14, fair. I wonder how pointer compression is actually done -- I'd love to learn how to do that and then take advantage of it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560886/#p560886 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10?
Re: Does NVDA take up a lot of ram in win10? @14, fair and understandable. I think I understand lol pointer compression is kinda weird to me, like memory compression is... except their kinda not the same. Lol URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560886/#p560886 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
