Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : philip_bennefall via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Thank you very much! I really appreciate it. My progress is fairly slow since I can only really work on games during weekends, but I'm getting there.Kind regards,Philip Bennefall URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/506749/#p506749 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : bryant via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback hi philip. I just want to say I really enjoy your games. You are one of the best game developers out there, and I really enjoy the projects you have came out with. I am glad to see you are still in the game development business, and I will continue to support you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/506719/#p506719 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-03
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : philip_bennefall via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @43 is correct. I will have some limitations in place for how many times you can register on new machines without having deactivated your licenses on old machines, but the idea is that this should never present a problem to the user if they aren't reformatting many times a year without deactivating old licenses. The exact numbers are not yet in place, but this should hopefully give at least a general idea of the approach I'm going for.Kind regards,Philip Bennefall URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505996/#p505996 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-03
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : jaybird via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback As I understand it, this proposed system wouldn't even use registration keys, at least not ones that the end user (that's you) ever sees. You have an Email address and a password which you use to log into an account on the licensing server. The license server keeps track of which game purchases are linked to your account, and allows you to activate each game on a certain number of your devices. You can deactivate your license from any device at any time, and if a device is lost, stolen, reformatted, has major hardware changes, etc. without you having a chance to deactivate it, there's a web portal where you can revoke that lost license so it can be used elsewhere. I hope this explains things. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505992/#p505992 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-03
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : rwbeardjr via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Will you be able to request a key replacement? If you don't understand, I'll do my best to explain.Recently, I just bought VIP MUD from GMA games. If I went out and got a different computer, I would simply sign into my GMA Games account, request the key replacement, enter my name, and the server updates it URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505983/#p505983 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @Chris: You won't even be worrying about your registration key being lost. That's all being handled behind the scenes. Think of the registration process like that of A Hero's Call. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505752/#p505752 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : jaybird via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @38: Post 1 covers lost activations. In short, there will be a web portal or something similar where you can revoke an activation in case you lose/reformat/etc. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505743/#p505743 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : philip_bennefall via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @38:Thank you very much for the feedback and the kind words. No apology is necessary, but I really appreciate the sentiment all the same.Kind regards,Philip Bennefall URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505727/#p505727 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Please don't put your content on Steam! I wouldn't touch Steam with a ten foot pole, and I would much rather purchase directly from developers rather than going through Steam which probably takes a cut of all sales. If Steam continues to ignore accessibility for blind people, I will continue to ignore the company as a whole.I like this idea. If you can make it work in such a way that it protects your software without inconveniencing the honest customers, that's a win. Do you have an automated policy in mind for people to reset activation information? This should obviously be restricted to something like 3 times per year, but it would allow someone to reset activation slots if they were lost due to computer crashes or other errors.Philip, it's great that you appear to be more active. I hope you're working on some cool new game projects. You're one of the coolest audio game developers and I have a lot of respect for you and what you've done. I know I may have been too angry and said unkind things about you in regards to Perilous Hearts and BGT, and I apologize for that. It mainly came from frustration. If you are working on something really cool, I can't wait to see what you come up with. I'm more than willing to financially support your work, because I know it will be high quality. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505714/#p505714 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Please don't put your content on Steam! I wouldn't touch Steam with a ten foot pole, and I would much rather purchase directly from developers rather than going through Steam which probably takes a cut of all sales. If Steam continues to ignore accessibility for blind people, I will continue to ignore the company as a whole. Maybe they'll change their tune one day when the CEO, his wife, son, daughter, etc goes blind or otherwise becomes disabled.I like this idea. If you can make it work in such a way that it protects your software without inconveniencing the honest customers, that's a win. Do you have an automated policy in mind for people to reset activation information? This should obviously be restricted to something like 3 times per year, but it would allow someone to reset activation slots if they were lost due to computer crashes or other errors.Philip, it's great that you appear to be more active. I hope you're working on some cool new game projects. You're one of the coolest audio game developers and I have a lot of respect for you and what you've done. I know I may have been too angry and said unkind things about you in regards to Perilous Hearts and BGT, and I apologize for that. It mainly came from frustration. If you are working on something really cool, I can't wait to see what you come up with. I'm more than willing to financially support your work, because I know it will be high quality. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505714/#p505714 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Please don't put your content on Steam! I wouldn't touch Steam with a ten foot pole, and I would much rather purchase directly from developers rather than going through Steam which probably takes a cut of all sales. If Steam continues to ignore accessibility for blind people, I will continue to ignore the company as a whole. Maybe they'll change their tune one day when the CEO, his wife, son, daughter, etc goes blind or otherwise becomes disabled.I like this idea. If you can make it work in such a way that it protects your software without inconveniencing the honest customers, that's a win. Do you have an automated policy in mind for people to reset activation information? This should obviously be restricting to something like 3 times per year, but it would allow someone to reset activation slots if they were lost due to computer crashes or other errors.Philip, it's great that you appear to be more active. I hope you're working on some cool new game projects. You're one of the coolest audio game developers and I have a lot of respect for you and what you've done. I know I may have been too angry and said unkind things about you in regards to Perilous Hearts and BGT, and I apologize for that. It mainly came from frustration. If you are working on something really cool, I can't wait to see what you come up with. I'm more than willing to financially support your work, because I know it will be high quality. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505714/#p505714 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback I think that this is a good idea. I'm excited as weel since this means we'll see more things from you in the future! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505706/#p505706 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback SMS verification can be intercepted through a man in the middle, though. See, if Windows Hello/all these other fingerprint api's were easier to deal with, verification would be nothing as long as people had a decent new machine, or a usb fingerprint reader. But then again, there might as well be as little obtrusive verification as possible anyway, since obtrsuive drm is a turnoff for legitimate customers, which is why people don't like STeam so much.The STeam library is accessible by the way, but there are still parts that need working on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505643/#p505643 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : crashmaster via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Wow, interesting topic.Itch is good for rpgs and adventure books, thats what is mostly on it and some puzzlers.However, while you can get steam keys from them, you can just get drm free stuff which is a bonus.As for steam, I have heard rumors from them from time to time, however valve has never acknowledged its blind user base, in fact, from some video makers on the net I have talked to, valve is generally or has been generally verry difficult to deal with, from copywrite questions to general support and even how they fund some of their user projects.I have friends that while they have steam, do as much as possible to either not use it or get cracked keys for even their stuff because steam has a few really annoying habbits.The worst one of this is that if you install say a program that has a lot of updates to it, steam will not patch the program.In stead say you install version 1 of my program, and we have version 16 now.It will need to install all the updates in version 1, so 1.1 to 1.9, then so on and so on and so on till 16 not to mention the smaller updates after that and a load of extras.Steam programs take up a lot of space on a hard drive, and well there are a lot of users angry about that.For me, while its semi web enabled its still not that accessible though some say you can access it via the web.I just don't buy anything from steam because its not been that good.Plus there are better things to do then muck about with anything by valve corp.One thing that is underutilised is the guidedog games platform.You need to be logged in to it and such but yeah everything works including game updates all linked to the user.If I have only 1 gripe it is that there is no paypal useage on there so I need sightlings to help me with my credit card.The only dev that actually uses it for payed games is vallient galaxy, and while all their stuff is good, the only other active dev is the guy that handles alterian series games and then its only used for stats and such.The gdg platform is underused.I also agree with the poster that doesn't want to sling his information about for no reason.I mean we allready do this but with all the breaches about one has to wander.Its also why I will never use a microsoft account.Because microsoft got rid of their music store and only has office services and their speech services which I don't really use, I see no reason to sign in at all that would be worth my while as a home user.Now if microsoft was like google is now then yeah, they can have all my private info and sling about because they give me so much back, my privacy doesn't matter.Sadly its a thing microsoft hasn't realised just yet.In fact they plan to restrict everything to their stuff then force users to make a ms account and sign into windows for no good reason.If I were them, I'd either stop forcing people or add more services, music, non microsoft stuff, 3rd parties, actually more than windows and office which unless you are a businessman in an enterprise you don't give a damn about.Ok, maybe not totally, there is to do and onenote but even so, the fact you are supposed to be able to kill cortana next windows is welcome.On the other hand maybe they leave everything else to everyone else and thats fine to but becoming this isolated is really not that good.I can get by without their office 365 and their onedrive for example.I also agree with the user that talks about google etc.These big companies allready know your information, so it makes sence just to use that.In fact the backbone of the net is mostly amazon and google, a thing I found out when a failure in one of our datacentres in australia took down google service and most of the net in new zealand for a few hours.As for sms verification, that actually may help a lot even if the only protection was that.Its unlikely any person even if he were a pirate would give out his mobile number unless he had several phones I guess and accounts.For me, my online face is skype, and email.I don't give a damn if someone even someone malicious gets and uses my online identity or my email, but what I do care about is that spread offline.So I have a landline voip number, and a mobile phone and while a lot of companies have that, I don't give my mobile number to anyone or my phone number.The only reason I would give a phone number is if you are in my country and needed to talk.Now I have done this with some companies including address who do meetings in person and its been fine. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505636/#p505636 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @theTrueSwampGamer: BGT is officially abandoned. If you want it, there's a good chance we're hosting it on the Audiogames ARchive.Yup, it's right here. Be advised though that it is, actually, abandoned, so if you're going to learn a language it's probably in your best interests to do something else. The same disclaimer is on our page for Blastbay, so folks can't miss it.@Philip: Agreed. For games, even if such a system were in play the end doesn't justify the means as it would for a multi-hundred dollar plugin/instrument rack. Besides, I have gone through the pain and suffering that is license drives failing, and that's one way to get screwed out of running the program for a few days give or take while getting a new drive or recovering lost licenses. All the while, pirates technically rid themselves of these hassles anyway, while legitimate customers have hassles to deal with (iTunes pre2009 anyone)?Besides, it stands to reason that the ratio of honest customers to pirates is not as close as it seems, it's only unfortunate that the crackers are usually the loudest. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505628/#p505628 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @theTrueSwampGamer: BGT is officially abandoned. If you want it, there's a good chance we're hosting it on the Audiogames ARchive.Yup, it's right here. Be advised though that it is, actually, abandoned, so if you're going to learn a language it's probably in your best interests to do something else. The same disclaimer is on our page for Blastbay, so folks can't miss it.@Philip: Agreed. For games, even if such a system were in play the end doesn't justify the means as it would for a multi-hundred dollar plugin/instrument rack. Besides, I have gone through license drives failing, and that's one way to get screwed out of running the game for a few days give or take while getting a new drive or recovering lost licenses.Besides, it stands to reason that the ratio of honest customers to pirates is not as close as it seems, it's only unfortunate that the crackers are usually the loudest. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505628/#p505628 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : TheTrueSwampGamer via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback wow your still active phillip? How come you can't download BGT anymore from the site. Last time i checked it wasn't available. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505621/#p505621 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : philip_bennefall via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @31:I did consider the USB dongle approach, but decided not to do it. It's something that would personally annoy me to no end, so I don't really want to impose that on my users. It is certainly more secure than the software based approaches, but I also feel that it adds a level of inconvenience that is unacceptable for a product in the audio games price range. I would rather deal with the increased piracy risk, if doing so means that I can make the system more convenient for the honest users which I like to think is the majority.Kind regards,Philip Bennefall URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505611/#p505611 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Well, at black_mana's mention of iLok, that does beg the question. Have you considered just going through the u2f api for logins? That would:1. Eliminate the needfor sms verification if you were thinking of going down that road, and2. People wouldn't be able to just pass their account info around. I'm sure the system would have done an IP check if it sw many different IP's logging in, but suppose someone did want to do a mass distribution, they coulnd't. Unless they mailed their usb key to everyone they wanted to give the game to, which is at best a fool's arrand, and at worst just completely impossible. If someone can't afford a ubikey (they go from $20 to $50) then I believe Ubico has a smartphone app to turn your phone into a security key that can be used. If the verification can't be done without the physical hardware dongle then you're already ahead of the curb as far as that process is concerned. And no, the dongle wouldn't have to be in at all times, perhaps every time you go to register a new game seeing as you are going to need to log in. I believe the U2f api is easy to integrate, and t seems like a good idea unless it costs a crap ton for an organization to integrate it into their service.@Simba: Ok, I"m throwing out your arguments. If you're so concerned, why are you still using Facebook? Or were last time a similar issue to this came up? Ever since all the breaches happened I hav eliterally only logged in I'd say once in a blue moon vs the regular schedule I used to have. Needless to say, the Facebooks of the world are only insecure because it's by design. Backdoors galore. They're also operating within U.S. territory, which currently holds the weakest privacy regulations as far as first world countries are concerned. A system has the opportunity to be secure to hte point of being trusted for mission-critical use without the shit hitting the fan. Proton Mail, Bitwarden, your own wireguard vpn, you name it. Philip is collecting minimal personal data about you, and he is not going to sell it to data aggregators, and knowing his encryption protocol development I'd say you can trust him to handle your information safely. Seriously. You're fine URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505587/#p505587 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : black_mana via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback it's effective and i like it, that way no one will be able to crack the game /keys can not be shaired, it sounds to me like the I lock system that is being used in some programs/plugins related to sound design if you ask me URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505539/#p505539 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Lucas1853 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @26, I don't really understand why this is a concern unless you're using the same password for everything. That's insecure, and it's also primarily your problem. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505534/#p505534 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Veljko via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Sounds good to me. Also some really good ideas post 19 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505498/#p505498 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : philip_bennefall via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback There will certainly be ways of circumventing the system. As with any DRM that is performed client side, a user who is determined enough will find a loophole. I will of course try to put checks in place to try to prevent it, but at the end of the day I want to spend my time creating the actual software, so I have to strike a balance.If I ever stopped selling the software, I would decide what to do with it at that point. I won't build the drm system with that scenario in mind from the start, as it will potentially increase the risk of someone breaking the system by making the software think it is in that mode. Simply put, it opens up more loopholes. Does that make sense?Regarding the storage of personal information, I will naturally comply with the EU data protection act, which I think is a good step on the road to making customers feel more secure in terms of how their data is handled. And as I mentioned previously, I will not be storing highly sensitive information such as credit card numbers anywhere.Kind regards,Philip Bennefall URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505481/#p505481 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Hi.At 5 h so I get your point, throwing all data privacy and protection concerns aside, it's all good nature to throw out your private data out the door anywhere possible? Yeah, no wonder how those data breaches come to be.Greetings Moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505476/#p505476 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback This is why we're talking crash plans/last resorts now before nything else. A good drm solution has a crash plan in place so that software is not impacted by companies going out of business. Example: Company abandons ship, already has an emergency license generation mechanism in place, therefore they can just release it and call it a day. This is exactly what BSC did, their keygen must have been the former in-house utility used, with the dll likely being the api that fed through Paypal/SWReg to generate the keys. After all, we don't want another Vipgameszone incident *spoiler alert: @rttEntertainment nailed it, as even their demos aren't playable without a server connection*. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505470/#p505470 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : RTT entertainment via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Hi. This system sounds all well and good, but we have one major problem. If, for some reason, your company goes out of business, how will people who have never played or registered the game get to play? Basically, those of us who may not have purchased the game during its life cycle will have no way of playing. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505463/#p505463 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : electro via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback It sounds very fine to me, as I'm not trying to remember the key when I'm registering the product. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505457/#p505457 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Socheat via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback As long as you implement the revoking process, I don't see that this is an issue. I liked the system though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505455/#p505455 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Socheat via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback As long as you the revoking process, I don't see that this is an issue. I liked the system though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505455/#p505455 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : jaybird via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @19: Good thoughts. However, playing devil's advocate here, you can't trust my computer's DNS resolver. Why? Okay, you're checking my hosts file to make sure there's no funny business going on. So I'll just go to another local Linux server and whip up a little DNS server that forwards most queries to the real DNS servers, but intercepts those of licenseserver.com and returns whatever IP I choose. That way you can look at my hosts file all you want and won't suspect anything's amiss.No, to be secure about it, you have to either know the IP you want, or look it up using a specific nameserver, not just whatever my computer would use by default.You probably should also do some Internet sanity checks to make sure you're on the real Internet, and not just a dummy Internet I whipped up in my spare time. I don't really know what such sanity checks would involve, but they should probably happen.Also, you have to be able to deal with any sort of server down scenario, performing sanity checks on responses from the server. Server is up and working properly, server is up but not working properly due to some sort of server/database error, server is refusing connection attempts, server is not responding in any way whatsoever as if its Ethernet is unplugged or it's powered down, server domain name fails to resolve, and possibly the worst of all, your company is so out of business that your domain has been purchased by a squatter, and your program goes to validate a license, only to get a totally unrelated page that wants to throw up tons of ads and who knows what else. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505454/#p505454 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @19, good ideas. I'd also strongly suggest adding in a flag to detect if the application is running in a virtual machine, emulator, etc. The system doesn't need to immediately invalidate the license if the test is positive, but it should flag the account and the server should notify you so you can manually review the account for suspicious activity. This is because a virtual machine is one way of getting around DRM systems, or emulating precise enough hardware that an existing key specific to that hardware will function even though the physical machine contains a completely different hardware setup. Also, don't use things like disk information (serial number and such) in hardware scans. Use information that is very difficult to change: processor, video card, etc. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505453/#p505453 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Itch.io: No drm. Can easily be exploited unfortunately.Steam: Only recently became accessible, a very long overdue move on their part. Still, the blasted login screen is not accessible without the login shortcut workaround, and even then you have steamguard to deal with. Yeah, not a perfect solution still.Re, the drm: Second everyone's feedback and seeing as occasional license checks are necessary to prevent tampering,I have been thinking of a hypothetical way to make it less obtrusive.Option 1: have overt periodic license checking. One of the problems with STeam/Code Factory DRM has always been the fact that the periodic license checks have been covert, so you have no idea when the server is going to phone home. Instead, the program can let you know at launch, hey, I'm going to revalidate you in a few days, run over to the Starbucks to reactivate if your wifi suddenly just took a shit. Or if you have a regularly offline machine, plug your phone into it to usb tether your internet so you can revalidate real quick. Seeing as we are dealing with perpetual licenses here rather than subscriptions, there could be a point in time when the program has validated you enough times, i.e. constant success rate through 5 revalidation periods, etc. that can let it know, ok we're done here, you're the real deal. It's sort of how some early to mid 2000s trialware facilitated a temporary key that would be generated immediately upon purchase that you could use while you waited for your check to clear, and i nothing goes wrong during the order process the developer would actually email you your real registration code. The difference here is that there would not have to be a secon license, so no having to re-enter information, it would be behind the scenes yet transparent.Also, if you plan to license this drm system for use with other deelopers as well, you can have a crashplan scenario in place, so we don't run into another vipgameszone situation where the company going down literally rendered people's purchased games unplayable for god.Hypothetically, a design concept that went like this would be reasonable. I.e.if the server can't be contacted to revalidate a set number of times, or over a set number of days, the system automatically reverts to a try-and-die full version of sorts. During the try-and-die full version phase, the last resort protocol would check the server every day, up to a maximum of 30 days. If at any point the test comes back positive, license authentication returns to business as usual. If it's been 30 days and nothing, the app reverts to a full version indefinitely. If the developer comes back and releases an update to the game, then the validation reverts to business as usual.Now you're wondering, wait, someone can take advantage of the overt revalidation and just turn their wifi off/modify their hosts file to block the server address, right? Yeah, we're talking legitimate server outage here, not internet connection tampering.A user would not be able to take advantage of this crash plan even if they wanted to, the server would have to actually be down that long. Goodness knows the program would check to make sure your wifi was on so that it was a legitimate radio-silence being reported. An approach I have thought of to make the program wise to tampering would go like so:If the license client can read the machine's hosts file without the antivirus having a hissy fit then it can enact phase 2 of the connection check.Step 1: Wifiif(wifi==off){Ok fine, you wanna play like that, huh?exit();}if(wifi==on){step 2: The program checks the hosts file for a phantom server redirection, i.e.27.0.0.1 blastbay.comIf that test comes back positive, the program can cold-close. It doesn't have to care about the IP address the user decides to point the license server to, though.The average person has no reason to put www.licenseserver.suffix in their hosts file, so the thing would simply look for just that alone and not have to concern itself with what ip address it is. If it's there, it's there, cold-close.}
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505451/#p505451
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Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : philip_bennefall via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @15:You're absolutely right, I will need to contact the server from time to time and this is in the pipeline for sure. However, I don't like option two. I like to have the freedom to use my key wherever I go, even if I don't have Internet access on a particular machine for a few months which could potentially happen. Option 1 is much closer to the kind of message I want to send to my customers.@16:3. I do use public key signatures in the system, so that merely having access to the encryption part of the code will not make it easier for people to crack. However, since the game is running offline, there are other parts that you cannot really protect other than by obscuring them as much as possible. If I made those parts open source as well, It would seriously weaken that obscurity. Does that make sense?@17:I like this idea. I will implement it. Thanks!Thanks again for all your feedback, folks. Much appreciated!Kind regards,Philip Bennefall URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505404/#p505404 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : jaybird via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback I had another thought I forgot to put in my last message.Were I designing this system, I'd allow customers to give their computers nicknames, either at time of registration or later. That's an easy way to keep track of which computer is which. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505381/#p505381 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : jaybird via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Here are my thoughts:1. The system as a whole sounds like exactly the type of DRM system I'd design were I designing one.2. I would recommend having the game check in with the server every now and then. Not every time the game is launched, but every several times, possibly at random. If you don't, then you're going to have people deregistering their computers, then continuing to play the game on them anyway. If people think it needs the net each time it launches, they could deregister and get by for a while, but if you mandate periodic or random check-in, eventually they'll have to go back online and let the game do its thing, at which point it gets the bad news that it's no longer a registered product. Making the game check in from time to time also gives you, the developer, the ability to kill licenses that you believe to be suspect, stolen, etc.3. Like someone earlier, I'd love to see an open-source DRM framework of this type, but I understand why you are against it. On the other hand, though, a lot of encryption software is open-source, and that actually helps the community because anyone can look at the code to make sure it doesn't have any back doors they can find, etc. In encryption, etc. it's not the source code of the software that needs to stay secret, it's the actual encryption key material that must stay secret. If a DRM system were to be open-sourced, either the open-source version would have to be different enough from any closed-source version by the same developer to make attacking it more difficult, or it'd need to be based on a key model where the first thing any new developer does is to generate master keys which they keep secret. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505379/#p505379 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Ian Reed via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Hi Philip,Your solution seems pretty reasonable.One thing I would point out is that your client will need to contact the server periodically to see if the key it is using has been revoked.Otherwise people could activate several keys, then revoke them, and the old clients would obviously continue working.I have two thoughts on this:First, that as you said, you do not need to *require* an internet connection to launch the game after the initial registration, but if an internet connection is available you can contact the server in the background to verify the key is still active.This mostly solves the problem while not getting in the user's way, though people who are willing to keep a machine offline in order to keep the key active could theoretically activate more than their fair share of keys.Second, you could put a timeout on the activation, so it lasts offline for perhaps 30 days.This at least deactivates clients that ar kept on offline machines over 30 days.Each time the game is launched with an internet connection it could contact the server in the background and reset the client side 30 day timeout.While this second option protects your licensing better, the first option is much nicer for the end user in that games continue to work even beyond 30 days of offline use, and if your service ever goes out of existance then already installed versions of games will still work.There are trade offs to weigh for the second option, but I think you at least need to implement the first option.I'm sure you already thought about this, but it was not explicitly outlined in your explanation so I wanted to make sure. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505378/#p505378 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback I like the idea myself, though I would recommend giving users a good interface to look at their hardware specific license keys and when the last was active, that way if your computer breaks and you buy a new machine, you will be able to track which license was active when and which to deregister, since it is not always obvious from say system user number which key belongs to which machine (I am going to have this problem soon with microsoft office). I also like the idea of registrations being tied to a single account, indeed this was one of the advantages of the guidedog client, though that has the disadvantage that you need to login and be online each time you run the game.As to other platforms, Itch.io has the disadvantage that even though the site will charge people to download the game files, there is no restriction on running those files, meaning the game could potentially just be passed around to whoever. Steam has the disadvantage of being a barely usable piece of garbage run by a greedy, faceless corporation who neither know nor care about accessibility, which is a pretty big disadvantage for accessible games . URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505362/#p505362 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback I like the idea myself, though I would recommend giving users a good interface to look at their hardware specific license keys and when the last was active, that way if your computer breaks and you buy a new machine, you will be able to track which license was active when and which to deregister, since it is not always obvious from say system user number which key belongs to which machine (I am going to have this problem soon with microsoft office). I also like the idea of registrations being tied to a single account, indeed this was one of the advantages of the guidedog client, though that has the disadvantage that you need to login and be online each time you run the game.As to other platforms, Itch.io has the disadvantage that even though the site will charge people to download the game files, there is no restriction on running those files, meaning the game could potentially just be passed around to whoever. Steam has the disadvantage of being a clunky, barely usable piece of garbage run by a greedy, faceless corporation who neither know nor care about accessibility, which is a pretty big disadvantage for accessible games. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505362/#p505362 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : philip_bennefall via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback I just looked into itch.io, and it seems like a nice platform. However, this entry in their FAQ caught my attention:Does itch.io impose any DRM (Digital Rights Management)?No. itch.io lets users download the games exactly as you uploaded them. No modifications are made to the files you upload.So if I am reading this correctly, I would still have to implement my own DRM. Itch.io will generate download links when the user purchases something, but if I do not implement my own DRM it would be trivial to send the file to whomever you want. That's what I am trying to avoid with my system. So while I certainly don't mind listing the game on itch.io, I would still need to handle keys myself. Am I understanding this correctly?Kind regards,Philip Bennefall URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505354/#p505354 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : philip_bennefall via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback @10:It is something I would consider, as any opportunity to streamline the process would be advantageous. But for now, I would like to have an independent system that I can taylor to fit my exact requirements, not least because I would have complete control over the accessibility aspects.Kind regards,Philip Bennefall URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505349/#p505349 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback ich.io, I agree with. Stream, I would say sure, (but only until they get that one screen out of beta!) Yes, that annoying account screen. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505338/#p505338 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : connor142 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback What about just going onto one of the platforms that already handle your drm, like ich.io, steam, etc? It's 2020, not 1995. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505332/#p505332 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : haily_merry via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Same here. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505326/#p505326 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : crescent via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Sounds good to me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505321/#p505321 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : pitermach via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback This sounds more than reasonable to me. It sounds like the kind of DRM that does its job without getting in the way of the user. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505320/#p505320 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : philip_bennefall via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Thanks for the quick feedback!@3:1. The email will be verified when you create your account. After that, it will be used to look up the user on the server when fetching new keys.3. It's written in C. I don't think I will release this part as open source, exactly for the reason you mentioned - it may increase the attack surface by making it easier to deduce what the system is doing.@4:I can see where you're coming from, but I do need a way to keep track of user information in a way that people are used to. I will not store things such as credit card details in the database, though. Similarly, your password is not stored either.@5:Being able to sign up with a Google or Facebook account would be possible, but probably in the future. I'll certainly keep it in mind.Thanks!Kind regards,Philip Bennefall URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505317/#p505317 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Lucas1853 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback I like the system. It strikes a nice balance between freedom and security. I'd say it's fine for the end-user, because it improves at least two major issues people have with, say, the Code Factory licensing.@4, that's a part of being on the modern WWW. Deal with it.Edit; Although, to expand on my last point, it would be cool also if there were other login options. For example, login with Google or Facebook. That way, you don't technically have another account. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505312/#p505312 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Lucas1853 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback I like the system. It strikes a nice balance between freedom and security. I'd say it's fine for the end-user, because it improves at least two major issues people have with, say, the Code Factory licensing.@4, that's a part of being on the modern WWW. Deal with it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505312/#p505312 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Lucas1853 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback I like the system. It strikes a nice balance between freedom and security. I'd say it's fine for the end-user, because it improves at least two major issues people have with, say, the Code Factory licensing. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505312/#p505312 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback Hi.I due like the sytem but I'm not a fan of creating another account for a platform that I only use for registration purposes, it's another platform that has my data like name, email, payment details and what not and i do not like creating an account for everything on the web.greetings Moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505311/#p505311 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback A few things here1. Wouldn't you have to check if the email is valid upon launch of the product? Because if not, people may be able to exploit that and abuse it to an extent and crack it. Maybe I'm not understanding something here though2. I actually quite like this sort of system, and this is what Liam was considering doing for brain station as well.And 3. What is this going to be coded in, and will you have a basic template of the code on github with all the url's and things like that removed so that other people can use it. That may also make it easier to break though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505309/#p505309 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback
2020-03-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Dan_Gero via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Game Licensing - Request for Feedback This is very similar if not exactly the same as the GMA Games account system, and I wish more people would use this system. In my opinion, it's more effective. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/505308/#p505308 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
