Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Awesome. I wish there was a addon for Eloquence 6, the latest that we have for sapi4. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=280292#p280292 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Figmant, its clear to me that you are nothing but a person whose looking to start flames all the time. And, guess what? I ain't gonna follow your thing. As a christian, and a very jealous one, I'm always willing to answer in a situation like this; But I know what ya want, and sorry dude but I'm not gonna take part in a discussion about this, cuzz as I said before all you do is trying to provoke others, oh yes and call hipocrits to those who do not think like you.Game over!Edit: something I forgot to say. Its tremendous how some people look to acuse others, like Figmant's doing with me and Nocturnus. The fact that you disagree with us, sir, does not necesarily means that we are acting wrong, in fact my conscienceness is clean in this matter URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=280232#p280232 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Figmant, its clear to me that you are nothing but a person whose looking to start flames all the time. And, guess what? I ain't gonna follow your thing. As a christian, and a very jealous one, I'm always willing to answer in a situation like this; But I know what ya want, and sorry dude but I'm not gonna take part in a discussion about this, cuzz as I said before all you do is trying to provoke others, oh yes and call hipocrits to those who do not think like you.Game over! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=280232#p280232 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I was going to just ignore this thread as criminals practicing their craft, but when I read a post from Andy93 about how he was a man of God and decided to abandon game writing to do the Lord's work, I had to ask.Isn't one of the commandments, Thou shalt not steal? I wonder what your God thinks of you participating in software piracy which is stealing? I think you'll find the pearly gates closed and locked when you arrive. AS I said before, hypocrits!Nocturnus, didn't I see you call yourself a Christian in another thread? Since when did Christians consider stealing not a sin, or did you decide to ignore the commandment, Thou shalt not steal?In answer to your question about abandonware sites, while some of what they offer may be of questionable legality, most of what they offer are from companies that have long ago gone out of business. Nuance is still in business and while they are no longer maintaining Eloquence in favor of their Vocalizer Expressive voices, they still actively market it through companies like Code Factory, and license it to other companies like Freedom Scientific, so it is by no means abandonware. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=280226#p280226 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Ahoy allI won't repeat what others have said, and indeed a few of them have said it far better than I ever could so I will leave it at that, howeverWhile boycotting a business because its employees are racists is a valid way to protest,I said users, not employees. 2 very different,and entirely different group of people.I know, its amusing, I find it so,myself.come again? wrote:Who are you calling anal retentive?I was actually talking about the game developers that I have come across, and other reasonable people not being anal retentive, but if you think the shoe fits...anddig on wrote:I'llbury you!Go ahe adI had actually decided I'll ignore the guy and carry on replying just! to the things that interest me or what others say but...And burak, not the type of thing exactly others are getting at.grryf URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=280150#p280150 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I agree. Every person does it. Try it, go search for a GTA 5 torent. I asure you that you will find it, even though GTA5 isn't counted as accessible. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=280068#p280068 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @exodus: I agree, good point! that diserves a thums up. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=280016#p280016 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I wish you'd make up your minds about what you want. On one hand you want to be included in society and given the same consideration as everyone else is, but at the same time you want to be excused from obeying the laws everyone is required to obey so you can pirate an older version of software. If you think it's just the blind choosing how they get ahold of and utilise software, then you need to get out your box. People the world over refuse to be dictated to by corperations interested in pumping their users for the maxamum amount of cash. This runs the range of a few users getting ahold of an old piece of software that nuance would looz nothing on if they made the thing free, up to big name artists running modified coppies of ableton and reason because they've been restricted by the stupid licencing system behind the software. It's happening more and more, technologically savvy users are getting sick of stupid restrictions being put on them and are fin ding their own ways of doing things. The response from developers/record companies or whatever you care to put here? Legislate, restrict, control.Nocturnus makes good points, and we could be having a discussion right now. Maybe if you climbed down off your soapbox, Stopped calling everyone hypocrites, thieves and accusing people of getting personal with you then this thread could be a nicer place to be URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=280004#p280004 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I wish you'd make up your minds about what you want. On one hand you want to be included in society and given the same consideration as everyone else is, but at the same time you want to be excused from obeying the laws everyone is required to obey so you can pirate an older version of software. If you think it's just the blind choosing how they get ahold of and utilise software, then you need to get out your box. People the world over refuse to be dictated to by corperations interested in pumping their users for the maxamum amount of cash. This runs the range of a few users getting ahold of an old piece of software that nuance would looz nothing on if they made the thing free, up to big name artists running modified coppies of ableton and reason because they've been restricted by the stupid licencing system behind the software. It's happening more and more, technologically savvy users are getting sick of stupid restrictions being put on them and are fin ding their own ways of doing things. The response from developers/record companies or whatever you care to put here? Legislate, restrict, control.Nocturnus makes good points, and we could be having a discussion right now. Maybe if you climbed down of your soapbox, Stopped calling everyone hypocrites, thieves and accusing people of getting personal with you then this thread could be a nicer place to be URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=280004#p280004 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Yay, aha, I knew that you were gonna say that my example is flawd. So all of those abandonware sites putting up abandoned stuff made by companies still maintaining those names, are pirates and criminals. Yay yay. Aha URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279974#p279974 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Justice without strength is powerless, strength without justice tyrannical. I believe in justice... if I'm wrong, then I'll say I'm wrong, but I refuse to simply let corporations dictate my life and the lives of those like me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279971#p279971 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @Andy93No, I don't think anyone is a hypocrite because they disagree with me.I believe they are hypocrits because they want to be a member of our society and given the same consideration as every other member of that society, but don't want to abide by that very same society's laws.Your Windows 3.x example is flawed. There is nothing wrong or illegal about running such an old version of Windows as long as you have a valid license to do so.It doesn't matter one whit where these old copies of Eloquence came from, what does matter is that they are being used for a purpose that they aren't licensed for and they are being distributed without the permission of Nuance. Both of which make it nothing short of software piracy. You can color it any way you want to placate your guilty consciences, but no explanation or attempt to justify your actions will ever change that.You want to be a software pirate? A thief? A criminal? Go ahea d! It's you, not me, that has to live with it, and I believe that no matter what you might say, deep down, you know you are in the wrong. Otherwise you wouldn't have to come up with all these explanations of why what you are doing isn't software piracy, when you know it is. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279947#p279947 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda you know what? I'm not only in disagreement with Figmant, but I also feel pissed off. Quite honestly, I feel that this guy is used to treat others as hipocrits because they don'k think the same way as him.I don't see where's the problem with having a very old, abandoned, quite hard to find version of eloquence. Yes, nuance is still licensing it, but heck I don't even think this is a matter of piracy. Plus, as far as I know, this coppy of eloquence was not taken from a JAWS DLL, its just the raw thing that datajake found and put together. So what, is it illegal to use Windows 3.X just because microsoft is still selling operating systems under the Windows brand? I don't think so. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279931#p279931 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda oh damn, that's unfortunateI wish the addon could read kana, but thanks for the information URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279913#p279913 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @dd: The current add-on of Eloquence 6.1 that's available from http://grossgang.com/tts/synthesizers%2 … nvda-addon supports all languages that Eloquence 6.1 supported; which includes Mandarin Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. I will warn you now that this add-on doesn't read any of the Chinese, Japanese, or Korean characters. The only way you'll be able to have Eloquence read those characters is through the SAPI5 Eloquence sold by Computer Room Services, but there's a catch. The Chinese, Japanese, and Korean languages say a small phrase before reading any text. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279912#p279912 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I wish you'd make up your minds about what you want. On one hand you want to be included in society and given the same consideration as everyone else is, but at the same time you want to be excused from obeying the laws everyone is required to obey so you can pirate an older version of software that is still being actively licensed and sold.Just because a company releases verson 2 of a program doesn't give anyone the right to ignore copyright laws and use and distribute version 1 of the same program. If that was actually legal, we'd still be using Windows 1 or MS-DOS 1 or JAWS 1 and so on.I thought that I had found a community of game developers and players, and that because developers were involved, software piracy wouldn't be tolerated in any form. But what I find is a community where it's OK to break copyright laws and pirate older versions of software, and the developers approve of it by turn a blind eye to it.If I were to follow y our declarations and examples, it would be entirely legal and OK for me to find an old version of Q9 and make the full version available to anyone that wants it!Well, now I know and I have to say I'm very disappointed. You all seem to be nothing but hypocrites to me.@GrryfindorWho are you calling anal retentive? I never said anything that warrented that verbal assault on me. If you want to get personal, just say so, and I'll bury you! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279909#p279909 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I wish you'd make up your minds about what you want. On one hand you want to be included in society and given the same consideration as everyone else is, but at the same time you want to be excused from obeying the laws everyone is required to obey so you can pirate an older version of software that is still being actively licensed and sold.Just because a company releases verson 2 of a program doesn't give anyone the right to ignore copyright laws and use and distribute version 1 of the same program. If that was actually legal, we'd still be using Windows 1 or MS-DOS 1 or JAWS 1 and so on.I thought that I had found a community of game developers and players, and that because developers were involved, software piracy wouldn't be tolerated in any form. But what I find is a community where it's OK to break copyright laws and pirate older versions of software, and the developers approve of it by turn a blind eye to it.If I were to follow y our declarations and examples, it would be entirely legal and OK for me to find an old version of Q9 and make the full version available to anyone that wants it!Well, now I know and I have to say I'm very disappointed. You all seem to be nothing but hypocrites to me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279909#p279909 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @slenderthanks for the info, do you know if there's like an addon or something I could use with NVDA to try it out? I was thinking of trying it in a japanese game or something URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279908#p279908 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Of course they don't care, and they never have. They're only concerned with making the most money, even if that means screwing some people out of things they might need. Part of the reason why I have absolutely no qualms about doing things like this. As far as I'm concerned, these corporations can all go screw themselves with something sharp. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279885#p279885 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Of course they don't care. They're only concerned with making the most money, even if that means screwing some people out of things they might need. Part of the reason why I have absolutely no qualms about doing things like this. As far as I'm concerned, these corporations can all go screw themselves with something sharp. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279885#p279885 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @Figment,it only took some 300 years for other races to truly get their foot in the door where legal rights are the case, if you're going to discuss what's legal in America. Even today, where legality is concerned, I believe the issue is a greater one called inequality. the same holds true for the blind community. Let me respectfully ask you a question: hypothetically supposing wheelchairs were at some point made illegal because they make great housing for weapons of mass destruction, would you then say to a paraplegic that he just needs to deal and look for someone to carry him wherever he goes for the rest of his life?You can sit here and tell me such a thing does not make sense, that it'll never happen, that humanity is greater than that, but things like that have, and will continue to happen because legislators forget who they serve and focus on what makes their backers the most money. Three-d printing is being heavily debated as we speak; the possibility that people will be able to print their own shoes, clothes and other products at home has corporations wondering what will happen to them and their business. If we suddenly discover a dirt cheap way of harnessing water for ourselves, you can believe Nestlé is going to have something to say about it. do you have a right to your DNA information? do you have the right to an education? do you have the right to banking? If obtaining the information to all of those is suddenly devoid of physical interaction and physical presence and instead requires your online presence, is internet a privilege or a right? if it is a right, then what about electricity? Should we be writing those into the constitution?My point is simply this; right now, many laws don't make sense, and we have politicians in office that are either driven by money or fear. You can sit here and call everyone a crook because they are disregarding laws you hold dear to your heart, laws that you follow by principle because they are laws, but if FS were to gain a patent to the word screen reader tomorrow and anyone who develops a screen reader suddenly had to pay FS for every single time their product were used by virtue of the fact that it is a screen reader, if nuance were to suddenly gain access to a patent that required anyone else who dealt with vocal synthesis to pay a nice sum by virtue of what their software or hardware is, you'd better believe things would get harder for the blind community, and this is the place they'd come to try and ease that difficulty. In providing accessible games, we stand for accessibility... Equal accessibility... Something all your legalistic corporations who are absolutely and truly just with their legal rights don't seem to care about anymore, or maybe, they never did. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279884#p279884 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Actually, the Asian languages Eloquence supports are Chinese, Japanese and Korean. I believe these were the last languages that were in development. I heard from a native Korean speaker that Eloquence's Korean is actually not that bad. However it's very unstable, and tends to crash a lot in my tests; Chinese especially. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279874#p279874 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Ahoy allThank you jason sw!Eloquence 3.3 certainly doesn't sound nothing like the eloquence today!Besides during certain pitch changes or so, but it was fun listening to it.It sounds quite similar to fred on OSX, and quite robotic. I did wonder what people ment when ios10 came out and they were like now that ios has the fred voice too, its the closest to eloquence we can get.and I was thinking, come again? close to eloquence? and now I know. Thank you,Riad for the link.@dd, I think the only Asian languages eloquence supports is Chinese and Japanese? there was some sapi4 or such version that supports it and I saw floating around, couldn't be sure,though.I wish it supported my language, currently we only have 1 sinth that reads in my language, and its far from good.but ehgrryf URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279868#p279868 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda so this is a little OT, but I was just wondering if anyone knows of a way to get a version of eloquence with the asian languages? I know they exist, but I haven't heard them before and I'm curious what it sounds like URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279850#p279850 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda No, the add-on of Eloquence that is commonly found is Eloquence 6.1, the last version of Eloquence before SpeechWorks, the then developer of Eloquence, was purchased by Nuance. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279841#p279841 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Plus the adon of eloquence floating around on the net, is i believe via voice which to my knoledge isn't sold anymore so, there is a lot of legal gray area here anyway. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279830#p279830 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda *Note*! a bit of the post might seem confusing because I'm getting sleepy and unable to well concentrate , but let's get into it!I agree for what concerns the controversy of this issue, but it seems this version is not sold anymore so there's nothing wrong with sharing it. Note that a similar eloquence version was distributed as different SAPI 4 voices, the via voice ones, and I don't know if this particular version was released as freeware back when it was released, but it's discontinued unless proven otherwise by the original developers, or unless Nuance and/or Code Factory tell us which version(s) they bought and have the right to sell/own. This reminds me when that UP game thingy was still there, Mason released it at some point as abandonware along with the server creator. But like 6 months later he continued it then decided to make it paid. To talk right, distributing the abandonware version which didn't even have 1/4 of the later implemented features wasn't a software piracy, and that's what I did when I distributed a dropbox link for the abandoned version, which was if I remember right v0.22.54 (back in 2014) and Mason flagged me for copyright infringement, which led to my DB links being disabled till the time I'm writing this post in. But let's forget about that and return to our topic: both issues are apparently similar, and both shouldn't be considered software piracy, I think.@Griff if you want to try Eloq3.3 for NVDA you can do it by downloading the add-on from this link:http://grossgang.com/tts/synthesizers%2 … nvda-addonIt's better not to be using Eloquence as your default synth when installing it.Hope that helps! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279822#p279822 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @figment: this one's actually a lot more tricky. If someone did a post of a blatant, actual crack of a software or a keygen, then yes, that topic will be closed if the software is being sold. If it's abandonware, then the topic stays open. Or, if it's really hard to find.So, here's the thing. eloquence is either sold through jaws, or as an android app. You can't seem to buy, well, just eloquence.The thing is, I believe you used to be able to. There isn't a site that just says buy now, and for that, well, it makes things a lot harder, particularly as this addon in this topic, is actually for a version of eloquence that isn't even supported or licensed anymore. So, no, this topic won't be closed due to the fact that it has more, shall we say, retro appeal. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279814#p279814 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I don't know, both Freedom Scientific and Nuance were very interested and happy to get any information about the piracy of Eloquence.That the management of audiogames.net allows this thread and others like it to remain and the members promoting their piracy of Eloquence to continue on these forums unabated, tells me everything I need to know about audiogames.net, and that is that their posted rules against piracy is just window dressing.For your information, software piracy isn't just the cracking of, or making key generators for, software. It also includes the use and distribution of software without the copyright owner's permission, which is what is going on here.While boycotting a business because its employees are racists is a valid way to protest, it is valid because it is legal. But stealing from a business because you don't like the way they do business is not legal, and nothing you do or say will ever be a legitimate justification.< /p>Let's keep the personal attacks out of this, nothing I have said gives you or anyone else the right to verbally assault me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279804#p279804 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @grryfindore:https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1472111/eloq33.ogg URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279806#p279806 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I don't know, both Freedom Scientific and Nuance were very interested and happy to get any information about the piracy of Eloquence.That the management of audiogames.net allows this thread and others like it to remain and the members promoting their piracy of Eloquence to continue on these forums unabated, tells me everything I need to know about audiogames.net, and that is that their posted rules against piracy is just window dressing.Let's keep the personal attacks out of this, nothing I have said gives you or anyone else the right to verbally assault me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279804#p279804 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Personally, I'd be surprised if they did anything about it, as I'm sure they've got much bigger fish to fry. A small community of blind gamers with an even smaller comunity of so-called "software pirates" inside it is likely to get them more bad press than money. I suppose we'll see, though. Heh. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279800#p279800 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Ahoy thereAt anyone who has installed this addon or has access to a older version having eloquence 3.3? is it. would you mind sharing a recording of how it actually sounds? I'm interested in listening to the differencesAt figment, I was actually talking of a while ago when there was no codefactory eloquence but of course even then they did not allow posting of the eloquence addon on their websites/ forums and mailing lists, I'm sure you can take a guess as to why. I certainly can, at this point. The eloquence version posted here is a older version and is nothing but a fun gimic,and not even the version available anywhere, and as the posts on this topic itself shows, most people don't really careAs for eloquence by codefactory, alas that version sucks balls,and I refuse to support any company that employs such a shitty DRM system that its more of a inconvenience to the end userYou can go into legalities all you want, but audiogames.net never has and never will support actual cracking of softwares I.E the real piracy of games and such, while I am not a member of the administrator team and can not speak on their behalf, the behavior of the moderators and the admins when it comes to actual cracking (keygens and other software cracks) even more so when it comes to games is clear enough that I don't need to say that they do not allow game piracy or software piracy (as most people know it).If a game developer nitpicks over some legality and terms more over on things that don't concern him either, and is anything like you, I don't know about others but I wouldn't have anything to do with them in the firstplace, much less buy a game and then argue over terminology and legalities when trying to get supportBut then again, I have come across many people, many of whic h have been game developers and they aren't really so anal retentive anyway.OT, but I have decided not to consume services offered by pizza hut as their users are all a bunch of racist, I kid you not!grryf URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279799#p279799 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Ah, but Eloquence is being sold, by Code Factory, under license from Nuance to do so. So it's not abandoned or no longer available.Stealing Eloquence from an old version of JAWS isn't legal for several reasons. The first is that that copy of Eloquence is licensed only for use with JAWS. Using it in any other screen reader is a violation of the license agreement, which makes it software piracy. And unless the function calls in the Eloquence DLL were made publicly available by Nuance, the only way to figure out what they are is to reverse engineer the DLL and that is not allowed in every software license agreement I've ever seen.Face it, using the Eloquence DLL from JAWSS for use in another screen reader is software piracy, plain and simple.@GrryfindorStop lieing! I found your remarks that the developers of NVDA didn't care if people pirated Eloquence so unbelieveable, that I asked them. Here is there response:We absolutely do not condone (and never have condoned) piracy of Nuance Eloquence. We have also never "turned a blind eye" to this. We have made it clearon any forum we control (such as our mailing lists) that this is illegal activity and will not be tolerated. Furthermore, we put a considerable amountof effort into working with companies to find a legal solution for users to purchase Eloquence before the Code Factory add-on was released.And if you are right about audiogames.net not caring either, which seems very likely, then that is something I think software developers need to be made aware of. I think it would be very interesting to find out what they think. Especially those who expect to sell their games. I would be willing to bet that they wouldn't be so supportive of this community if they knew.You can ignore the software piracy going on here all you want, that is your choice. Just as it is my c hoice to do something about it. I am in full agreement with the NVDA developers that software piracy should not be tolerated, so, I've been in contact with Freedom Scientific, Nuance, and the Software Publisher's Association, and informed them about what is going on here. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279787#p279787 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I remember when I first started using the Windows version of JAWS, at the state school for the blind, back in 5th grade. That was JAWS version 3.2, and Eloquence was really different back then. That must have been Eloquence 3.3. It'd be interesting to use that version with NVDA, just for the hell of it. Haha. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279786#p279786 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
2016-09-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : Green Gables Fan via Audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda That's greatI've always wanted to know how versioning worked, and how it differed from the previous add-on. I know not what version I have.I'm also curious as to how the production was made. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279785#p279785 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda This is how I, personally, think things should work. Note that I know they don't work like this, and I'm sure there are some problems with this reasoning.If a company discontinues or abandons a product and doesn't sell it to another company so it can be distributed, then people should be allowed to redistribute the product as long as it isn't being done for commercial gain. That part might be rather difficult to enforce though. I imagine all the copyright laws are there so people can make money from what they produce as that's how some people make a living. If they're no longer providing the product, then I see no real reason why they should have a problem with someone else copying it provided they're not making any money doing so. If they want money from it, then they should license someone else to distribute it.If a company wishes to take legal action against people distributing a product under the above terms, then they should be required to distribute the product again. It seems only fair to everyone involved. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279734#p279734 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I myself haven't been into software piracy in over a decade, and mostly, I agree with Figment here. For products that are currently supported and available, I either choose to buy the product, or I choose not to buy it. For products that aren't currently supported, though, I won't say no to using them, if I don't have to patch the product, or download a key generator. The thing is, there is no DRM of any kind on the Eloquence DLL, so if you can figure out how to interface to it, you can use it. Sort of like my views on downloading movies and TV shows with description, instead of buying them. I can't buy what they won't sell. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279710#p279710 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Hi guys, how to check which version of eloquence I am using for my NVDA? Downloaded this one and will try it soon. Oh, JAWS 3 exist few years before I started high school,just learning to use computer. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279707#p279707 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda This is a perfect example of one of the reasons why I've chosen to keep using JAWS and not to become a member of the NVDA user's community.For the sole reason that you don't like Nuances attitude, you believe that justifies stealing their product. I'm sorry, but nothing that Nuance might have done justifies stealing from them, and I can't be a part of a community that willingly supports such illegal activities.The reason Nuance no longer maintains Eloquence is because their Vocalizer Expressive voices superceeds it. Even Freedom Scientific feels that way, the primary reason they haven't removed Eloquence from JAWS is because it is the voice most users are used to. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279706#p279706 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Ahoy there99% of the people don't really mind topics and softwares like these, at least I've seen topics similar to this one and hell the eloquence addon for nvda was initially posted by the developer or their friend on here without people having issues with it.at figment,I won't argue/debate with you when it comes to terminology and such, all I have got to say I have already in the sapi5 eloquence topic as it relates to you.No eloquence sapi4.7 or older addon is sold, or newer for that matter,and that works as well as the modified eloquence, so nothing is being cracked and no one but a fat arsed corp who doesn't give a shit might be getting hurt,not even that because they refuse to sell. hell a product doesn't even exist to be sold, on top of that this is just for fun, and even the NVDA developers and contributers do not mind,so the forum doesn't,eitherWith that unpleasantness out of the way, I think I� 39;m using the automatic language switching addon for nvda, will installing this one create any issues?I hadn't even started using a computer back in the years of jaws 6 to 3 or whatever it was, the first I remember using was 7 I think.So I have no clue how different or better eloquence was back then, and this should prove interesting, if nothing else! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279699#p279699 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @figment, question though... my dad has several old vehicles he bought from someone else or someone else bought for him way back in the early 1960s. They are mostly dodge vehicles I think. Is he breaking Dodge's copyright by taking those vehicles apart and rebuilding them so they work better than they did before? I'm sure if he took them to a dodge dealership today the people there would tell him, we don't support this model car anymore, so if you can fix it up and run it then do so but we won't support you on it. Why won't nuance do the same with their old unsupported eloquence versions? If my dad has the freedom to tinker with old cars and stuff. then why can we not have the same freedoms when it comes to tinkering with old software maybe making it run on modern systems if we can? And since ;it seems we currently do not have such freedoms legally. then I think laws really really need to be changed. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279697#p279697 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda well all we can hope for then is that someday soon nuance will decide to make eloquence abandonware. or that espeak klatt voices will be improved a bit. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279694#p279694 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @DraqI would Imagine that writing a TTS engine that does a fairly good job producing intelligible speech isn't something for even intermediate level programmers to tackle.I consider myself to be an advanced level developer and I wouldn't have even the faintest idea of where to begin such a project.@joshknnd1982While Nuance's response may have been rather rude, Eloquence is still their intellectual property, and their response doesn't justify using it without a valid license. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279636#p279636 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @DraqI would Imagine that writing a TTS engine that does a fairly good job producing intelligible speech isn't something for even intermediate level programmers to tackle.I consider myself to be an advanced level developer and I wouldn't have even the faintest idea of where to begin such a project.@joshknnd1982While Nuance's response may have been rather rude, Eloquence is still their intellectual property, and their response doesn't justify stealing it. Which is exactly what is going on here. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279636#p279636 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @figment, I contacted nuance to ask them to let me sell these old eloquence versions for maybe $4 or $5. and you know what? they basically laughed in my face. so you know to be honest if they want to be jerks about it then fine I'll use your unsupported eloquence versions just out of spite. come on nuance you guys are not supporting these old eloquence versions anymore just let us use them or at the very least let me sell them for $5 or so so that way you can say you are getting something for them. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279631#p279631 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda I still wonder how much of a pain in the neck it was to code Eloquence. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279628#p279628 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda As far as I know, Eloquence is owned by Nuance, and it doesn't matter whether they are maintaining it or not, it isn't abandoned, so a license to use Eloquence with NVDA would be needed for it to be legal.The remark about not recording a podcast with itseems to be an indication that this copy of Eloquence isn't legal. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279596#p279596 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda @Figment: from what I understand, the guys behind eloquence don't seem to be updating it anymore, it was companies like code factory that approached them and licensed it for mobile. I'm not even sure what's happening, desktop wise. I think the NVDA creators have, basically, said, use the addons at your own risk but if you record a podcast with NVDA, don't use the voice. Unfortunately, I have no full on proof right now though and wish I knew what the full story is. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279584#p279584 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda uh, Jees I'm planning to do something with this and upload to any audio hahaha, the person posting the doctorJAWS thinngy gave me an idea.And, actually as spanish is my native language I tested, and I did not found any differences at all. Its just that it doesn't reads sertain things aproppriately, and for some very odd reason it reads some letter combinations as achronims.Other than that, this is just cool! and, you can notice a the a lot in the english versiondifference URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279539#p279539 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda How legal is it? It doesn't matter how old it might be, if it isn't properly licensed, it's still software piracy, which I thought wasn't permitted on these forums. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279520#p279520 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Please relax while Dr. Jaws examines your system. This may take a couple of minutes. *spinning wheels* URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279518#p279518 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
2016-09-18
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : ammericandad2005 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda this is the version used by versions 3.3 to 3.5 of jaws. prepare to back in time to the final days of Doctor Jaws. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279504#p279504 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda What's even more interesting is you can type embedded commands like v12, v13, or v14, but it wraps around. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279503#p279503 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Well it has some spelling differences, don't know why the American 4.7 one sounds a bit British when pronouncing the R, but other than that, it doesn't crash whenever a crash word is used on it, and plus it will no longer be able of making its legendarhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhry urhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhrhrrhrhrh, but that won't affect you unless you wanna hear them on purpose Finally, it had less languages, at that time they haven't implemented the Canadian French, Brazilian Portuguese and Finish. You will be able, however, to change the voice's roughness and head size in the 4.7 version. The English version is similar to the actual one, but some languages have changed a bit. It's an intermediate between the old 3.3 eloquence and the actual one, though more similar to the latter. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279502#p279502 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda This one is the one used in Jaws versions 3.3 through 4.0, when the new version was introduced. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279501#p279501 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda what's the difference between this one and the one that we already had? I'm not actually sure what I'm using though because it just says eloquence URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279500#p279500 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Oh hello there. The add-on is great, I really missed the voices I used with jaws 3.5 back in 2002. I even think this is one of the IBM via voice versions which you posted a while ago as SAPI4. Keep it up! The add-on rocks!I even noticed you can change the head size and roughness, and that has been never implemented in a previous NVDA add-on I think. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279499#p279499 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Oh hello there. The add-on is great, I really missed the voices I used with jaws 3.5 back in 2002. I even think this is one of the IBM via voice versions which you posted a while ago as SAPI4. Keep it up! The add-on rocks! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279499#p279499 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda
Re: eloquence 4.7 for nvda Oh, hey Datajake! This is just nice! if I'm not wrong, this version of eloquence was the one used with JAWS 3.5 or 3.2, I don't know. Its just nice to have this version of eloquence as an NVDA addon, ad least for my taste.The spanish voices sounds quite similar to the actual eloquence we have right now, but heck, you can feel the difference in the way it pronounces sertain things, especially in the english voices. UH by the way! its nice how it pronounces your username hwehehehe! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279488#p279488 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
eloquence 4.7 for nvda
eloquence 4.7 for nvda Hi,I created an eloquence 4.7 addon for nvda. Please note, if you are using the eloquence 3.3 addon, switch to a different synthesizer and restart nvda before using the eloquence 4.7 addon. http://grossgang.com/tts/synthesizers%2 … nvda-addon URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=279483#p279483 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
