Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288408 Wrote: No DAC with a SPDIF interface like your Transporter will touch the DS :) When the Transporter is used as intended - a network player utilising its own DAC - SPDIF doesn't come into the equation. When you were doing your comparison against the DS, were you using the TP as a DAC, feeding it from another digital source via SPDIF? -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter of SB3
opaqueice;288436 Wrote: I don't agree at all - audibility is -not- a separate argument. We're talking about audio DACs intended to be connected to a stereo system and listened to. A change in the output at -140dB, while it might be measurable, is not relevant. Actually it is. When SD changed the SB3 firmware volume control, a number of people heard a reduction is sound quality - including me. We weren't aware of what had been done (or even that something had been done) and so this was effectively a blind test. You seem not to appreciate the difference in inaudibility between truly random noise, and other low-level distortions - if dithering is applied to the rounding process, you should be able to make the noise random, and therefore I'd expect it to be inaudible. However, non-random distortions even at very low levels can definitely be audible. opaqueice;288436 Wrote: In any case there are (relatively inexpensive) DACs out there which - at least as far as I can tell from published measurements - are totally immune to jitter. Given that that's possible, there is no excuse for a high-end DAC not to reduce the effects of jitter to the point where they are inaudible. A DAC which doesn't do that is not designed properly. Published measurements do not tell the whole story. As a scientist (assuming you are) you should know that there are very few absolutes, and so 'totally immune to jitter' is a meaningless phrase anyway. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45561 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter of SB3
pfarrell;288375 Wrote: I've never understood why the audiophile magazines drool over transports. All they are required to do is deliver a bit stream. ... and a highly accurate timing reference. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45561 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
I tried earlier with lower SB3 and higher amplifier volume. The final result was worse, I prefer 100% volume settings on my SB. -- arn arn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16610 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
opaqueice;287920 Wrote: Digital rounding errors from attenuation can only ever affect the last bit. But the last bit contributes at a level 144dB down from max output, and the noise level of the SB (or any component you might hook it to) is far higher than that. End of story. Well no it's not. The noise won't be truly random unless you dither, and the audibility of noise depends on its character as well as it's amplitude. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
rping;287152 Wrote: What about the volume control from a Transporter. Does anybody have the ir codes for the Nait 5i? Are they similar to anything from another manufacturer? Thanks I think that more English amplifiers are compatible (e.g. Musical Fidelity - Naim). -- arn arn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16610 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
arn;288506 Wrote: I tried earlier with lower SB3 and higher amplifier volume. The final result was worse, I prefer 100% volume settings on my SB. There's very little to go on in your post, but it seems you have an integrated amp (because you make no mention of swapping a pre in and out, just changing volume). If you can't bypass the preamp stage of an integrated, it's best just to use that for volume control instead of a source. The preamp is in the signal path anyway so, yes, a source volume control has nothing to bring to the party. The more interesting debate is 'source volume control without a preamp' vs 'preamp volume control'. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter of SB3
So Sean, the $1000,000 question, is the Transporter's digital output better than the SB3's? If so is it an audible difference? -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/TACT 2.0/SCM 50a's TP/Meridian DSP5000's The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45561 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter of SB3
Patrick Dixon;288459 Wrote: ... and a highly accurate timing reference. Yes that is true and that is why S/PDIF is architecturally brain dead. I don't like it for that reason. However, some DAC manufacturers e.g. Benchmark have published measurements which show that output distortion doesn't increase with increased input jitter (up to a silly maximum of input jitter). To me this is strong evidence of isolation from the S/PDIF-borne clock. In other words, immunity from input jitter in real world situations. So, in some cases - one might name these cases as 'decent DACs' - the main S/PDIF problem has been circumvented. Now, one may question the truth of these measurements. I note we are on a manufacturers forum here, and I am not inclined to believe published measurements are plain lies. And it is not only Benchmark who makes these claims. Secondly, one can imagine how in principle it is possible to isolate the S/PDIF clock using buffering techniques (albeit not without challenges). That doesn't make me like S/PDIF any more though. I think it's still dumb. :) Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45561 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288408 Wrote: Everyone owes it to themself to read this: http://www.linn.co.uk/files/eaccc978/Linn%20Klimax.pdf No DAC with a SPDIF interface like your Transporter will touch the DS :) As clive pointed out you should get your facts straight. You are a rather untalented troll. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
Patrick Dixon;288515 Wrote: Well no it's not. The noise won't be truly random unless you dither, and the audibility of noise depends on its character as well as it's amplitude. Although distortion is more audible than random noise, when it's 144db down you can't hear it. I don't know what the thresholds are but there *is* a limit to hearing distortion, or signal-correlated noise, too. But I'm pretty sure you couldn't hear fingernails on a blackboard, or a pneumatic drill, at 144db down! Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288408 Wrote: Everyone owes it to themself to read this: http://www.linn.co.uk/files/eaccc978/Linn%20Klimax.pdf No DAC with a SPDIF interface like your Transporter will touch the DS :) What does that prove? it's a subjective review Regards Harald N -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Yes it's rude to rubbish a component on the manufacturer's forum. When you do so without understanding the basic facts your comments don't appear credible. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;287620 Wrote: The transporter has nothing on the DS. Fact. Kris;287914 Wrote: w00ptee do! How about you all LISTEN to it first :) Kris, my old cheap JVC micro system blows away a Linn system. Fact. If you care to question that...how about you LISTEN to it first? Your posts appear to be designed to provoke an argument rather than illuminate anything. In other words, you are behaving like a troll. If you're not a troll, please try harder to enlighten and win over other people by using politeness and reason. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: 'Alternative' CD formats..SACD, HDCD, XRCD
Many people on here have reported a difference in sound between playing waves and flacs. I've observed this myself on my TP. Clearly, as the flac is decoded to a perfect copy of the wave, there are other factors to take into account. To rhizomaticon, you do realise that you can store all your music in flac, and get SqueezeCenter to decode it before streaming to the SB. -- bigfool1956 David Ayers Music is what counts, hifi just helps us enjoy it more bigfool1956's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13782 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45839 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
tomjtx;288533 Wrote: As clive pointed out you should get your facts straight. You are a rather untalented troll. Well so to are you Sir :) -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
So its really just an ethernet DAC with analog and balanced outputs...How does this relate to the transporter or SB3 as the latter 2 have their major advantages as a wireless device with an excellent interface and the convenience associated with this.I really don't see the huge technological leap and bleeding edge advance of having a dac hard wired to your pc? Why even compare the klimax to them? The Linn can only really be compared to the dac built into the other units and its a given that at the price point of the other units , it's quite conceivable that they could be bested by something costing at least 10-30x more. -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/TACT 2.0/SCM 50a's TP/Meridian DSP5000's The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288544 Wrote: http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/amp.jpg Try moving those speakers out a little - you've got them crammed into the corners of the room. You'll find that makes much, much, much more difference than replacing the Transporter with the Linn. Not only that, it costs infinitely less. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice;288554 Wrote: Try moving those speakers out a little - you've got them crammed into the corners of the room. You'll find that makes much, much, much more difference than replacing the Transporter with the Linn. Not only that, it costs infinitely less. X2, speaker placement and some room treatments will make far more difference than the Linn. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
The Linn products are basically the same as the SB3 Transporter - they are systems for converting data, e.g. FLAC files, to music - not just DACs. The Linns do not have wifi - I understand this is because Linn don't want to get involved with configuring wifi for customers and sorting out those problems. Ethernet only - no bad thing if you want 24/192 too! I've mostly discounted the Linn as SqueezeCentre is so great! Having to move to TwonkyMedia would be such a downgrade, it would really impinge on the usability of the product. I do expect that the Linn sounds better, but I am happy with my sound. Have you tried an SB+? It's a Squeezebox-derived system that most who have heard them both prefer to the Transporter. It has a few limitations compared to the TP (only one screen, max res 24/48, no knob...) but does cost less. Just a thought. -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, EAR V20, Living Voice OBX-R2s plus some other stuff SB3, Charlize, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
Patrick Dixon;288515 Wrote: Well no it's not. The noise won't be truly random unless you dither, and the audibility of noise depends on its character as well as it's amplitude. First, please provide evidence that -anything- at -144dB is audible at anywhere near ordinary listening volumes. Second, I'm pretty sure you're wrong that one needs dither for this, although I'll have to think it through to be sure. It seems to me that rounding will introduce some extra harmonic distortion (because each Fourier component, rounded, will differ from the original in a harmonically related way). At -144dB that will be totally lost compared to the HD of any other component in the system. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter of SB3
Patrick Dixon;288456 Wrote: Actually it is. When SD changed the SB3 firmware volume control, a number of people heard a reduction is sound quality - including me. We weren't aware of what had been done (or even that something had been done) and so this was effectively a blind test. Nearly every time SD changed the firmware lots of people heard the difference. Quite remarkable, considering most of the revisions didn't affect the audio chain. You seem not to appreciate the difference in inaudibility between truly random noise, and other low-level distortions - if dithering is applied to the rounding process, you should be able to make the noise random, and therefore I'd expect it to be inaudible. However, non-random distortions even at very low levels can definitely be audible. Please provide evidence that anything (-regardless- of its spectrum) at -140dB is audible at ordinary listening levels. -Maybe- with your ear on top of the tweeter, nothing else playing, and the volume cranked you could hear something. Published measurements do not tell the whole story. I didn't say they did. As a scientist (assuming you are) you should know that there are very few absolutes, and so 'totally immune to jitter' is a meaningless phrase anyway. As the manufacturer and marketer of a SB modification you would say so, wouldn't you? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45561 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Been listening to some bookshelf speakers
For what its worth, I'm a Dynaudio fan. Bought Audience 42s around six years ago, and became a believer. Upgraded my Contour S3.4/S C Center surround set up with the Contour S Rs just last week. Also have a pair of Focus 110s, and my residual A42Ws, displaced by the SRs. You should have a good quality amplifier for these speakers to sing their best. But you can't go wrong with any Dynaudio speaker. They have two lines-the 'pro' systems (dynaudioacoustics.com) and the consumer line (dynaudio.com). Their magic, it seems to me is their tweeter. I prefer it to any metal dome tweeter because it sounds natural without any artifical sibilance. This speaker seems under-represented in the US. I live in a MAJOR metro area, and there's really only one dealer, even though their US importer/distributer is only about 30 miles from here. Don't quite understand why. Good luck, have fun. -- MrJB MrJB's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15616 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Transporter and low level hum
I just swapped out my amp -- went from a Bryston 3BSST to a Cary Cinema 2 -- and now I'm getting major hum as well. I've had (and solved) ground loop problems before, but I don't think this is the issue here. For some reason the Transporter and Cary amp don't get along. I'm going straight from the Transporter to the amp via RCAs. The hum is loud enough that I can hear it from four feet away, so I'd call it a pretty serious issue. Interestingly, the hum more or less vanishes when I switch to balanced mode. But then I am forced to keep the Transporter volume level well below 50%. So now I'm forced to buy attenuators... Kinds wish I had stuck with the Bryston amp. Any thoughts from Slimdevices about this? PS: My USB DAC1, which I just sold, drove the amp directly without hum as well. I only used it in balanced mode, as the XLR output can be attenuated. -- gregeas gregeas's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5877 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45832 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
opaqueice;288559 Wrote: First, please provide evidence that -anything- at -144dB is audible at anywhere near ordinary listening volumes. Hmm, I think the onus is on you to prove that it's not. I could hear the SB3 firmware rounding blind, as could others here. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter of SB3
opaqueice;288563 Wrote: Nearly every time SD changed the firmware lots of people heard the difference. Quite remarkable, considering most of the revisions didn't affect the audio chain. That was after that particular revision, which sowed the seed in people's minds that fw changes might affect audio performance. FWIW, I can't hear any difference between fw revisions other than that particular one, despite careful comparative listening. opaqueice;288563 Wrote: As the manufacturer and marketer of a SB modification you would say so, wouldn't you?Actually as a highly skilled and trained engineer, very familiar with the technologies and techniques involved, I would say so. OTOH, you as a professional skeptic would trot out the same FUD nonsense wouldn't you? -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45561 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter of SB3
darrenyeats;288532 Wrote: However, some DAC manufacturers e.g. Benchmark have published measurements which show that output distortion doesn't increase with increased input jitter (up to a silly maximum of input jitter). To me this is strong evidence of isolation from the S/PDIF-borne clock. In other words, immunity from input jitter in real world situations. That's assuming that their measurements and measurement techniques are -really - applicable to 'real world situations'. However, since I (and others) can hear the difference between bit-identical transports through their DAC, I don't believe they are. YMMV. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45561 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter of SB3
Rodney_Gold;288527 Wrote: So Sean, the $1000,000 question, is the Transporter's digital output better than the SB3's? Absolutely... jitter amplitude is about half as much. This is achieved through the use of a higher quality oscillator, a reclocking circuit which cleans up the signal right at the output connector, and control of power supply noise. But in any case, if you really care about jitter that would be irrelevant, because you'd be using either Transporter's internal DAC, or if you're using an external DAC you'd have a word clock connection. Even perfect clocking at the source can only go so far to overcome the problems of s/pdif - most of the jitter is introduced at the receiver chip, and it can even be data-correlated there. If so is it an audible difference? Audible to whom? -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45561 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
Patrick Dixon;288599 Wrote: Hmm, I think the onus is on you to prove that it's not. That was done in 1927 and possibly earlier when the thresholds of human hearing were established. It's been studied many times since then as well (there's a reference from 2004 here): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_threshold The results are that the minimum audible RMS pressure is about 2E-5 pascal (for this reason that level is usually taken to be 0dB when discussing SPL). That's for a listener in an absolutely silent environment listening to a tone. Of course what we're discussing here - a change in level of a pre-existing loud sound - is much, much harder to hear, and the thresholds are far higher. But I'll be extremely generous to your position and use this number. A sound 144dB above 2E-5 pascal is well above the limit of short-term hearing damage, and according to wiki is louder than a rifle being fired 1m from your ear: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure_level#Examples_of_sound_pressure_and_sound_pressure_levels No home stereo I know of is capable of playing a sound that loud. Therefore signals at -144dB will never be audible from 1m away even at max volume, and I doubt they are audible even with your ear over the tweeter. Let's prove this a different way, using physics. The air pressure variation caused by the Brownian motion of air molecules are at around -23dB relative 2E-5 pascal (and it's a good thing we can't hear that well, or we'd be constantly hearing white noise). Now suppose we have an audio system adjusted so that full-scale music is at very high volume - say 100dB SPL. A signal at -144 dB is then -44dB below 2E-5 pascal. But Brownian motion effects are at about -25dB - so the effects on a speaker cone from a signal component at -144dB, even with volume cranked, are MUCH smaller than the random motions of the cone induced by collisions with individual air molecules. If you can hear that, you're magic. You should quite your job immediately and apply to James Randi for his $1,000,000 challenge. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
I was assuming that you meant audible in the context of listening to music, since that would seem to be the relevant thing. You should read less and do more - you might learn something! -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
opaqueice;288618 Wrote: That is what I meant. Adding a loud sound on top of the -144dB component makes it much, much harder to hear (which is obvious - and yes, that's been studied). I was just being as generous as possible to your totally absurd claim. What was that? Oh, sorry, nothing, I thought you said something - it must have been an air molecule hitting my left eardrum. Nitrogen, I think, from the sound. So, when are you going to apply for that $1,000,000? TBH, I've given up listening to tones. I find it boring and unfulfilling emotionally. I've decided that I prefer real music. YMMV. (I haven't followed the Randi thing very closely, but FWIU, someone wanted to take up his challenge, but it was specifically aimed at one particular manufacturer and one particular set of cables, and the rules were very tightly drawn to that purpose. Mr Randi is not about to give up his $1M in the interests of science, he is really just interested in the publicity.) -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
Patrick Dixon;288616 Wrote: I was assuming that you meant audible in the context of listening to music, since that would seem to be the relevant thing. That is what I meant. Adding a loud sound on top of the -144dB component makes it much, much harder to hear (which is obvious - and yes, that's been studied too). I was just being as generous as possible to your totally absurd claim. What was that? Oh, sorry, nothing, I thought you said something - it must have been an air molecule hitting my left eardrum. Nitrogen, I think, from the sound. So, when are you going to apply for that $1,000,000? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
opaqueice;288612 Wrote: A sound 144dB above 2E-5 pascal is well above the limit of short-term hearing damage, and according to wiki is louder than a rifle being fired 1m from your ear: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure_level#Examples_of_sound_pressure_and_sound_pressure_levels No home stereo I know of is capable of playing a sound that loud. Therefore signal components at -144dB will never be audible from 1m away from a speaker even at max volume, and I doubt they are audible even with your ear over the tweeter. Don't forget that 1 LSB in 24 bits is 144dB down from the -maximum- level. Most well recorded music isn't at anything like this level. Which particular rifle are we talking about btw? -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Mailbox
Sean,your inbox is FULL. Dennis -- dennis55 dennis55's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8884 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45966 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter of SB3
Patrick Dixon wrote: opaqueice;288563 Wrote: As the manufacturer and marketer of a SB modification you would say so, wouldn't you?Actually as a highly skilled and trained engineer, very familiar with the technologies and techniques involved, I would say so. OTOH, you as a professional skeptic would trot out the same FUD nonsense wouldn't you? Patrick, I've stopped bothering to respond to his dogmatic ramblings. It's a shame as his general approach is often right, but he spoils it with his dogmatic stance, protecting his statements with qualifying conditional clauses which he then states are trivial but are actually highly significant. In a perfect, theoretical world, he is totally correct. Unfortunately, as most of us know and accept, this world of ours is not perfect. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Mailbox
sean (at) slimde -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45966 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Daylight Robbery!
thanks for all the advice folks,i have re-considered my options and have gone ahead and bought the Transporter here in the UK 'let you know how it goes!. cheers dennis -- dennis55 dennis55's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8884 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45764 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
Patrick Dixon;288620 Wrote: (I haven't followed the Randi thing very closely, but FWIU, someone wanted to take up his challenge, but it was specifically aimed at one particular manufacturer and one particular set of cables, and the rules were very tightly drawn to that purpose. Mr Randi is not about to give up his $1M in the interests of science, he is really just interested in the publicity.) Here's more reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation#The_One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge The original challenge was for paranormals. Over 1000 people have tried to get the money but all have failed. Whilst he certainly is in the public eye, he's doing a valuable service (IMHO) embarrassing and debunking fraudsters. The whole thing with Pear cables was a sideline, and it was Pear who withdrew (and it wasn't aimed at one manufacturer). http://www.randi.org/joom/latest-jref-news/blake-withdrawls-from-pear-cable-challenge.html -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] naim volume control with squeezebox controller
Patrick Dixon;288619 Wrote: Don't forget that 1 LSB in 24 bits is 144dB down from the -maximum- level. Most well recorded music isn't at anything like this level. I think you're missing the point here, Robin. Take a typical home stereo system and crank the volume to max. According to my estimate, the effects on SPL of a distortion component at -144db are smaller than the effects on SPL due to random Brownian motion of air molecules. Which means -144db distortion is not even measurable (acoustically), let alone audible - it's really an operationally meaningless concept, at least as far as acoustics go. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice;288554 Wrote: Try moving those speakers out a little - you've got them crammed into the corners of the room. You'll find that makes much, much, much more difference than replacing the Transporter with the Linn. Not only that, it costs infinitely less. Where to can you suggest? perhaps mark some RED X's on the photograph Its difficult to move them though , simply because of the room size/shape I am working on obtain a SPL meter/mic and some software to analyse the room and see where I can make some improvements. Any suggestions would be great -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Try listen nearfield , you and the speakers in an equilateral 6 ft triangle , peraps elongate it to your side 7-8ft, make sure you and speakers arent near walls or corners. Try the speakers dead ahead and then try toe them in. Looks like right speaker is in a corner and the other in not so sharp a corner.or is that just the pic? Im also sure that stuff in the middle is affecting stereo imaging etc. -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/TACT 2.0/SCM 50a's TP/Meridian DSP5000's The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288729 Wrote: Where to can you suggest? perhaps mark some RED X's on the photograph Its difficult to move them though , simply because of the room size/shape I am working on obtain a SPL meter/mic and some software to analyse the room and see where I can make some improvements. Any suggestions would be great I would get a narrower system stand and allow the speakers to be closer together. You normally don't want a speaker in the corner like that left one. I would expect a new system stand to be a lot cheaper than most of your upgrades :) -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, EAR V20, Living Voice OBX-R2s plus some other stuff SB3, Charlize, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
adamslim;288749 Wrote: I would get a narrower system stand and allow the speakers to be closer together. You normally don't want a speaker in the corner like that left one. I would expect a new system stand to be a lot cheaper than most of your upgrades :) Edit: you could put the power amps outside of the speakers on some granite slabs or something... The stand is definitely not ideal, and yes it is far too wide :( My gf insisted on it (I had a fantastic sound style stand I was forced to sell as she hated it) Moving the left speaker forward would mean it blocks the door way to the room on the left - I guess getting a different stand would be the best as I could move them forward and towards each other :( -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Rodney_Gold;288737 Wrote: Try listen nearfield , you and the speakers in an equilateral 6 ft triangle , peraps elongate it to your side 7-8ft, make sure you and speakers arent near walls or corners. Try the speakers dead ahead and then try toe them in. Looks like right speaker is in a corner and the other in not so sharp a corner.or is that just the pic? Im also sure that stuff in the middle is affecting stereo imaging etc. Right speaker has a old angled fireplace area, so yeah its not really a corner. Left speaker is a dud - cant really move it (a tad forward and a tad in (like 2) but thats about it. The whole place is really awful for audio :( -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288796 Wrote: Right speaker has a old angled fireplace area, so yeah its not really a corner. Left speaker is a dud - cant really move it (a tad forward and a tad in (like 2) but thats about it. The whole place is really awful for audio :( You really don't want speakers so close to either the front or side wall if you can possibly avoid it. If you move them out at least three feet from both walls and sit facing them (in a rough equilateral triangle arrangement) with at least three feet behind your head to the back wall, I can promise you'll hear an amazing improvement in sound state and imaging. I think this is because 3-4 feet corresponds to enough of a delay that your brain is able to differentiate the reflected and direct sound. If you can't do that (even as an experiment just to see what you're missing), I'd put some kind of diffusers/absorbers at the first reflection points. That should help. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice;288803 Wrote: You really don't want speakers so close to either the front or side wall if you can possibly avoid it. If you move them out at least three feet from both walls and sit facing them (in a rough equilateral triangle arrangement) with at least three feet behind your head to the back wall, I can promise you'll hear an amazing improvement in sound state and imaging. I think this is because 3-4 feet corresponds to enough of a delay that your brain is able to differentiate the reflected and direct sound. If you can't do that (even as an experiment just to see what you're missing), I'd put some kind of diffusers/absorbers at the first reflection points. That should help. When the DS arrives on Friday I'll do that just to test and see how I go. My listening position is a sofa infront, triangled from the speakers. However the sofa sits against the wall - again not idea but most rooms arent. Ill try it using the methods suggested here and see what I find :) Thanks -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Duet w/Benchmark dac1 vs Transpoter?
Howdy- I have a Duet and I'm using a Benchmark Dac1 and all my music files are ripped into Apple Lossless from cd's, would a Transporter best my set up sound wise? Cheers, Robert -- robster61 robster61's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16045 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45997 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Duet w/Benchmark dac1 vs Transpoter?
I doubt it would make a huge difference from an audio perspective. Both have good DAC output. I would personally spend money on speakers or music. :-) -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45997 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Duet w/Benchmark dac1 vs Transpoter?
The Transporter is a little better plus I like the one box solution. On advantage is that the Dac1 has built in jumpers for output so you can pad down the xlr's if running direct to amp. I've owned them both and now have the Transporter and would not switch back. Bill -- mr_bill mr_bill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6737 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45997 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Duet w/Benchmark dac1 vs Transpoter?
robster61 wrote: would a Transporter best my set up sound wise? I have a Benchmark DAC-1 that I used with my SqueezeBox. When I got my Transporter, I compared them. I am using the Transporter now, and the DAC-1 is for sale. YMMV -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Duet w/Benchmark dac1 vs Transpoter?
Was it a night and day difference? Or are you selling your DAC1 since now you basically have two DACs? May be a little bit of both? pfarrell;288856 Wrote: robster61 wrote: would a Transporter best my set up sound wise? I have a Benchmark DAC-1 that I used with my SqueezeBox. When I got my Transporter, I compared them. I am using the Transporter now, and the DAC-1 is for sale. YMMV -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ -- agentsmith System 1: SB2 and a mostly Naim system System 2: SB2 connected digitally to a Meridian F80 agentsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45997 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter MODS - Part II
OK well I'll submit myself to some BS critizm in hopes to get some positive feedback. Hell, I'd love to own a pair of Wilsons. Damn fine speakers. Gentlemen who OWN the Modwright TP - quick question about power cables that some claim make no difference in sound.. Have you tried or use other power cables in your evaluation? Just curious, and delusional of course. Hell, the whole family, friends and next door neighbor too! Must be the water (or wine). I'm on the fence about ready to 'teeter' over to a Modwright TP purchase. I own a self modded SB3. I haven't an outboard DAC nor do I own a good 2 channel pre so it seems that I either spring for the ModWright on what might be an excellent marriage with my NuForces, or the outboard DAC and preamp route. Thanks in advance! -- NoFlyZone NoFlyZone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38106 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
