Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
Once you got the Transporter, you shall better use AES3 than S/PDIF, but note that you need DAC in 5000$ range to beat the Transporter (which is still, questionable) -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
On 25/05/10 07:35, michael123 wrote: Once you got the Transporter, you shall better use AES3 than S/PDIF Not necessarily. See previous posts on this subject (AES/EBU vs. S/PDIF) R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
WHy all the trouble ? just use different digital cables ..A cable can be modeled as a RC network. -- SoftwireEngineer SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
SoftwireEngineer;550344 Wrote: WHy all the trouble ? just use different digital cables ..A cable can be modeled as a RC network. Yeah Andy, why go to all the trouble of setting up a controlled experiment with conditions that you can precisely manipulate and take to the necessary limits, when instead you could 'just' go out and buy dozens of different cables with unknown properties, and probably negligible and largely inaudible differences in jitter? Beats me why you'd bother. -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
michael123;550335 Wrote: Once you got the Transporter, you shall better use AES3 than S/PDIF, but note that you need DAC in 5000$ range to beat the Transporter (which is still, questionable) +1 on Robin's comment. In this specific case I can add that I plan to use coax over BNC and that the DAC in question, while not in that price range, has a distinctive sound that is a better match for my taste as well as the rest of my equipment. -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
My guess is it will sound fine until you suddenly lose lock. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
Don't get me wrong I love my Transporter. But it's had the over voltage problem since I bought it (couple years now) and it's a simple firmware bug that has not been fixed. I would not buy one today unless this bug was fixed. It does not happen often, but would you buy a car that just quits on you in the middle of highway once a month. Even though it runs fine the rest of the time and starts right back up. What would your passengers think. Absolute sin. Just buy a touch. It will be supported for a while. As far as digital differences I doubt you'll hear any difference. I didn't hear ANY difference going from SqueezeBox 3 to Transporter using an external DAC. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
I was asked this week for some comments via bugzilla for this specific bug, there is a hope it will be fixed (for 7.6?) -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
bhaagensen;550370 Wrote: +1 on Robin's comment. In this specific case I can add that I plan to use coax over BNC and that the DAC in question, while not in that price range, has a distinctive sound that is a better match for my taste as well as the rest of my equipment. coax over BNC is BNC in my language :-) It is a better connection (and different parts inside the Transporter last time I've seen it). It has transformer and 50 Ohm impedance. -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
michael123;550404 Wrote: mswlogo I was asked this week for some comments via bugzilla for this specific bug, there is a hope it will be fixed (for 7.6?) btw, I did hear the difference between SB3 and Transporter... Flat sound of SB3 was the reason it migrated to the bedroom and I got Transporter.. They are both absolutely 100% bit perfect (TosLink and Coax, Wifi and Wired). I've recorded the SPDIF on both and neither will miss a bit. Only difference may be jitter. But as dicussed elsewhere a good DAC will take care of that. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
chill;550348 Wrote: Yeah Andy, why go to all the trouble of setting up a controlled experiment with conditions that you can precisely manipulate and take to the necessary limits, when instead you could 'just' go out and buy dozens of different cables with unknown properties, and probably negligible and largely inaudible differences in jitter? Beats me why you'd bother. EDIT: Keep us posted - this sounds like it could be an interesting experiment. chill out.. all these scientific experiments would come back saying almost all equipment have jitter beyond inaudible levels..I dont care two hoots about these. Because when it comes to high end..each and every small thing matters ..atleast to my ears. Note, I dont spend as much money as some people do on equipment..but I can completely understand. The Squeezeboxes have both coax and toslink. Connect a good coax and a cheap toslink..you should be able to discern a difference ..if not why do you care about jitter at all ? -- SoftwireEngineer SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
mswlogo;550412 Wrote: They are both absolutely 100% bit perfect (TosLink and Coax, Wifi and Wired). I've recorded the SPDIF on both and neither will miss a bit. Only difference may be jitter. But as dicussed elsewhere a good DAC will take care of that. With my audiolab 8000AP it did not sound well.. anyway, there are huge differences in construction of SB3, Touch and Transporter. -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
mswlogo;550316 Wrote: Stop comparing Desktop/Server OS's to Embedded DSP. Apples and oranges. If someone was selling a Desktop or Server. Sure I'd want to hear 64bit. But that's NOT what we are dealing with. We are dealed with embedded OS or custom OS processing audio in real time. Who gives a crap of it's 64bit or 32bit or 16bit. As long as it does what it's supposed to do. Does that mean it will have less jitter? Does that mean it will have less errors? Does your 8bit, 16bit or 32bit embedded DSP systems crash more than a 64bit? It means absolutely NOTHING in embedded DSP world. They don't use Intel x86 or x64 desktop chips for embedded Audio DSP. Sorry, hate to clue ya. Well, no need to get angry :-) I am not an hardware guy, and I am far more aware of the problem you have with old piece of software much less efficient than modern ones. I thought that taking advantage of modern hardware instruction set, over obsolete one, could be very useful for a hardware designer to make more efficient and reliable products. I know that it is true for some embedded systems much more critical than sound processing. I am not a DSP hardware designer, so if you are, and are positive it is useless in this case, I can easily accept it :-) Let's stop this off topic discussion :-) -- nicolas75 nicolas75's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15823 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
michael123;550424 Wrote: With my audiolab 8000AP it did not sound well.. anyway, there are huge differences in construction of SB3, Touch and Transporter. Yes construction is different. most of Transporter's construction is for beefing up it's analog section. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
nicolas75;550428 Wrote: Well, no need to get angry :-) I am not an hardware guy, and I am far more aware of the problem you have with old piece of software much less efficient than modern ones. I thought that taking advantage of modern hardware instruction set, over obsolete one, could be very useful for a hardware designer to make more efficient and reliable products. I know that it is true for some embedded systems much more critical than sound processing. I am not a DSP hardware designer, so if you are, and are positive it is useless in this case, I can easily accept it :-) Let's stop this off topic discussion :-) Here Cirus Logic's Audio DSP's (no 64bit) http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/techs/T6.html Here is TI's (no 64bit) http://focus.ti.com/apps/docs/mrktgenpage.tsp?appId=1contentId=14700 Here is Freescales (which now includes the Motorola line) They even have quad core 16bit chips. http://www.freescale.com/webapp/search/Serp.jsp?qt=DSPQueryText=DSPbaseUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freescale.com%2FwebappPART_NUMBER=SEARCH_OPERATOR=Containsattempt=-1 -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
mswlogo;550412 Wrote: I've recorded the SPDIF on both and neither will miss a bit. Only difference may be jitter. Ah, interesting. You're then among the few ones who have actually looked into this in some detail. Is the testing setup/result/disclaimers/etc detalied somewhere on the internet-accessible? -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
mswlogo;550437 Wrote: Yes construction is different. most of Transporter's construction is for beefing up it's analog section. But the digital section has certainly not been neglected, at least c.f. official data concerning jitter. -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
chill;550348 Wrote: Yeah Andy, why go to all the trouble of setting up a controlled experiment with conditions that you can precisely manipulate and take to the necessary limits, when instead you could 'just' go out and buy dozens of different cables with unknown properties, and probably negligible and largely inaudible differences in jitter? Beats me why you'd bother. EDIT: Keep us posted - this sounds like it could be an interesting experiment. SoftwireEngineer;550422 Wrote: chill out.. all these scientific experiments would come back saying almost all equipment have jitter beyond inaudible levels..I dont care two hoots about these. Because when it comes to high end..each and every small thing matters ..atleast to my ears. Note, I dont spend as much money as some people do on equipment..but I can completely understand. The Squeezeboxes have both coax and toslink. Connect a good coax and a cheap toslink..you should be able to discern a difference ..if not why do you care about jitter at all ? Easy guys :) I think of the kind of jitter-problems discussed here as an important sub-matter of a completely indifferent one ;) Never mind the motivation. I think, as chill points out, that randomly swapping cables is hardly controlled, and therefore wouldn't alone stand a chance at providing enough information for specific conclusions to be drawn? However it made me think of an old post by Sean. He tested and measured jitter using a number of different cables. The results where similar. However, he then continued to beat them up pretty badly - using hammers and such :) - and repeated the experiment. This did have an effect on jitter. Rough as it may sound, it does sound like a method that could be used - providing one has tools for measuring jitter... (Disclaimer: I couldn't find the original post - it had graphs and such - and I'm not even sure I remember it correctly). -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
bhaagensen;550488 Wrote: Easy guys :) ... I am cool..thanks ..with due respect to you..as you are from the land of the CEO of my company :-) please take a look at this article if you have not read it already http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/ -- SoftwireEngineer SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
SoftwireEngineer;550422 Wrote: chill out.. I'm chilled, honestly. My (admittedly sarcastic) point was that Andy's methodical approach, which will likely teach him and a few of us about the audible effects of jitter, is likely to be more useful to everyone else than his opinions about the differences between digital cables. As such it seems more in keeping with this particular forum. -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
SoftwireEngineer;550497 Wrote: ...as you are from the land of the CEO of my company :-) Lego then - I presume. Always appreciate useful links. I have read that one though - and also [one of?] his [R. Hartley] books. -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RC (Inguz etc.)
Well, on SBS 7.5.0 on IE 8 with Silverlight installed the web interface works! See the attachment. And the menu items are all scattered randomly in the Home Menu item selector on the Duet Controller, but they are all there (all the items shown in the web interface, just all randomly mixed in with all the possible Home Menu items to choose from... it seems to be lacking its own submenu; the Inguz menu items are not collected and shown under extras). My SB3 is not running right now, but I can check it later to see if and how the Inguz menu items show up there. -Z +---+ |Filename: inguz.jpg| |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1| +---+ -- Zn0rt Zn0rt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21567 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77084 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RC (Inguz etc.)
krzys;543915 Wrote: To michael123, andywright and others I will resume the installation process. I installed 7.5, the Touch and manually installed the latest InguzEQ and InguzDSP, modified Michael's plugin.pm as Andy suggested and replaced the original plugin.pm with the modified one. Are those steps correct and complete? I'm asking since I haven't succeeded. The Inguz isn't visible neither in the Touch menu nor in the web interface. Any further suggestions? Thanks, Chris. I got it to work on both the Touch and in the web interface. Inguz log.txt confirms it. My main problem was the lack of self registration of the MAC address of the Touch. I manually edited the custom-convert.conf adding the address and changed some settings for the Inguz 9.32 and SS 7.5 in other Inguz configuration files files and voilà. Inguz plug-in is incredible. I discovered that for hi res files like 96/24, it detects the sampling rate and automatically converts the filter wav file to that rate using sox !!! no worries for the sampling rate of the music file . Chris -- krzys krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77084 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
