Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] NAS versus PC - any sound quality difference?
I'd just like to point out something that I haven't seen mentioned before (in this or any other thread where the audibility of things like different servers, or even different ethernet cables, is discussed). The data that arrives at the Squeezebox player does so via TCP/IP. Therefore *there is no guarantee that the packets even arrive in the correct order* - the TCP/IP stack in the Squeezebox deals with this and rebuilds the data stream appropriately. It should therefore be absolutely obvious that there can be no subtle effect that is down to anything in the digital domain upstream of the Squeezebox. *IF* there is an audible difference between a PC and a NAS as server, *AND* all the settings (replaygain et al) are identical, *THEN* you must look at the environmental domain (ie. RFI and/or ground plane noise somehow making its way into the Squeezebox) for an explanation. In your house PC brand X may produce less RFI than NAS brand Y, while in my house it could be the other way round. cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95276 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] NAS versus PC - any sound quality difference?
Mnyb wrote: But besides the rudimentary effort to have the settings the same on both servers before comparing :P garym wrote: Bitrate limiting accidentally turned on in one source? cliveb wrote: *IF* there is an audible difference between a PC and a NAS as server, *AND* all the settings (replaygain et al) are identical, *THEN* you must look at the environmental domain (ie. RFI and/or ground plane noise somehow making its way into the Squeezebox) for an explanation. In your house PC brand X may produce less RFI than NAS brand Y, while in my house it could be the other way round. The thing is, here, Deaf Cat is saying there is a difference using the -same- server, just a different hard disk (local versus NAS). darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95276 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] NAS versus PC - any sound quality difference?
I listened to an av processor 7.1 all the video inputs etc, and then the same electronics but heavely reduced with only stereo dac and pre, for only stereo!, to me there was a large difference, the only physical difference being less powered up electronics in one box than the other... My opinion was posted as the OP asked the question. It is up to the individual to choose how they pick the equipment they listen too, don't you think? I choose to listen, if the difference is small enough for me to not decide what I like best, then I may blind test. Sorry I don't see what difference it makes to others, if I like one thing better than the other, or how I choose it? Some people like to blind test and believe in it, other don't, some people hear a difference some don't... Thought the OP was asking any difference in sound repro from pc to nas, I would say yes, guess you would say no, so up to the OP to test / hear for him self.. blind testing or not, it makes no difference to me. Cheers :-) DC darrell wrote: There really is no way, no mechanism, by which there can be the slightest difference. Of course, you are perfectly entitled to ignore all this and carry on in what many members will consider a state of delusion. But then why post your opinion here, if you are unwilling to take the discussion further by testing your perceptions? If the difference is as obvious as you claim, then blind testing should hold no fear for you, even if you feel you have some sort of emotional or other investment in your current beliefs. In any case, we should all welcome being proved wrong, as it means we have learnt something. Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95276 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] NAS versus PC - any sound quality difference?
darrell wrote: The thing is, here, Deaf Cat is saying there is a difference using the -same- server, just a different hard disk (local versus NAS). Hence my suggestion that he set up a rudimentary sort of blind test using LMS's ability to serve files from multiple media sources, and the shuffle button. The frustration in following such discussions is when people refuse to apparently even consider known and well documented explanations for differences (such as subjective bias) and go looking for implausible and esoteric technical-sounding explanations for their personal experience. It is rather like blaming the sinking of the Titanic on the imbalance of the weight of the deck chairs between the port and starboard sides of the ship while ignoring the hole in the ship's hull from the iceberg collision. I've always found it ironic that the subjective type of audiophile looks the hardest for technical justification of their perception. They seem the least likely to accept subjective bias as an explanation or do the type of testing that would reduce or eliminate such bias when listening. It's almost as if they are embarrassed to be human. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95276 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] NAS versus PC - any sound quality difference?
Deaf Cat wrote: I listened to an av processor 7.1 all the video inputs etc, and then the same electronics but heavely reduced with only stereo dac and pre, for only stereo!, to me there was a large difference, the only physical difference being less powered up electronics in one box than the other... My opinion was posted as the OP asked the question. It is up to the individual to choose how they pick the equipment they listen too, don't you think? I choose to listen, if the difference is small enough for me to not decide what I like best, then I may blind test. Sorry I don't see what difference it makes to others, if I like one thing better than the other, or how I choose it? Some people like to blind test and believe in it, other don't, some people hear a difference some don't... Thought the OP was asking any difference in sound repro from pc to nas, I would say yes, guess you would say no, so up to the OP to test / hear for him self.. blind testing or not, it makes no difference to me. Cheers :-) DC Yes the OP was asking if there were sound quality differences between running LMS on an NAS versus a PC. You have taken it one stage further by claiming that there is a difference between file storage locations (local versus NAS) when using the same server. This is an extraordinary claim, and is bound to lead to debate. Of course, anyone is entitled to evaluate and choose equipment in any way they want to. I think that I already said this. But I think that it is widely assumed that by posting your views to a forum such as this one, that you are entering into a discussion about the issues raised. So when you stonewall and refuse to even consider that you might be mistaken, even when constructive and relatively straightforward suggestions are made as to how you might test your perceptions, you can appear arrogant. This can lead to bad-tempered responses, as can be seen in other threads here. Most people join a forum such as this one in order to learn something - I know that I did. What puzzles people in this sort of discussion is how it is that you can hear the things you say you can hear, through the fog of distortion which takes place in the analogue part of your system, which is an order of magnitude greater than any plausible (never mind implausible) adulteration in the digital domain. And that's before the truly gross distortions which are introduced by your speakers and listening room. This should puzzle you as well. Blind testing is the only accepted method of removing the effects of possible expectation bias from your findings. If you are unwilling to even attempt to do this, fair enough, it is your right, but people reading your post will draw their own conclusions. On the subject of blind testing, it is not about decid(ing) what I like best, it is about finding out whether there is a (perceivable) difference at all. If, after sighted listening, you can't perceive a difference, I'm unsure how blind testing, where you don't know which component you are listening to, or even whether you are listening to the same component for a second time, can help you choose. darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95276 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Can anyone recommend a CambridgeAudio DacMagic...
Lo, At 15:51 04/06/2012, you wrote: I had a SB3 and the DACMagic definitely improved on that. When I got the Touch I did try the internal DAC briefly, and whilst it was better than the SB3, I felt the DACMagic was the best of the three. snip To further mess with my head I'm looking at an Audiolab M-DAC or 8200DQ as a next upgrade, and use the pre-amp facility, and get myself a big power amp. I have seen the audio lab DAC as well but its a bit expensive at £600? This is the one with the front ports isn't it? I have looked at the DAC magic myself but it doesn't have enough digital inputs for me. (3 and isn't the usb less than 96khz?) With my equipment i have 6 digital device that i could potentially connect. The SBT, 2*MDs, digital radio and 2 cd players. It would be nice if i could find a DAC that had 6 inputs but its rather unlikely when 3 is seen as having an above average number of ports. The Rega DAC looks interesting though with 5 inputs (2*coax, 2*optical 1 usb) It has been out for a little while and some are appearing on ebay which reduces the price to more like my range. Martin Running MorphOS v2.6 (Nov 2010) on Mac Mini, Moderator of MiniDisc,amithlonopen,bwfc Yahoogroups ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] NAS versus PC - any sound quality difference?
Deaf Cat wrote: It is up to the individual to choose how they pick the equipment they listen too, don't you think? Sure. Absolutely no debate on the issue that each buyer gets to choose their gear in whatever manner they wish. If that is all anyone ever said -- I like Inkydink 32W better than Nakiyanga 736 -- then there wouldn't be much to debate. They would have expressed a valid opinion and the underlying cause would be irrelevant. People like what they like. The fuss comes when the personal perception is ascribed to a specific technical cause where little or no effort has been put forth to actually test the connection. It is simply declared a fact while the other elephants in the room are conveniently ignored. As noted previously, it is indeed ironic that subjective types seem the least likely to accept subjective bias as a major factor in their perception. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95276 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Can anyone recommend a Cambridge Audio DacMagic...
trott3r wrote: Lo, At 15:51 04/06/2012, you wrote: I had a SB3 and the DACMagic definitely improved on that. When I got the Touch I did try the internal DAC briefly, and whilst it was better than the SB3, I felt the DACMagic was the best of the three. snip To further mess with my head I'm looking at an Audiolab M-DAC or 8200DQ as a next upgrade, and use the pre-amp facility, and get myself a big power amp. I have seen the audio lab DAC as well but its a bit expensive at £600? This is the one with the front ports isn't it? I have looked at the DAC magic myself but it doesn't have enough digital inputs for me. (3 and isn't the usb less than 96khz?) With my equipment i have 6 digital device that i could potentially connect. The SBT, 2*MDs, digital radio and 2 cd players. It would be nice if i could find a DAC that had 6 inputs but its rather unlikely when 3 is seen as having an above average number of ports. The Rega DAC looks interesting though with 5 inputs (2*coax, 2*optical 1 usb) It has been out for a little while and some are appearing on ebay which reduces the price to more like my range. Martin Running MorphOS v2.6 (Nov 2010) on Mac Mini, Moderator of MiniDisc,amithlonopen,bwfc Yahoogroups Keep in mind that the Rega DAC's direct USB input implementation only supports 44.1/48 khz rates. If you want to fully use Triode's USB implemenation on the Touch, you'll need a USB/SPDIF converter to allow up to 24/96 via optical or up to 192 via coax into the Rega. rgro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95258 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Can anyone recommend a CambridgeAudio DacMagic...
Lo, At 16:21 05/06/2012, you wrote: trott3r wrote: Lo, At 15:51 04/06/2012, you wrote: I had a SB3 and the DACMagic definitely improved on that. When I got the Touch I did try the internal DAC briefly, and whilst it was better than the SB3, I felt the DACMagic was the best of the three. snip To further mess with my head I'm looking at an Audiolab M-DAC or 8200DQ as a next upgrade, and use the pre-amp facility, and get myself a big power amp. I have seen the audio lab DAC as well but its a bit expensive at £600? snip This is the one with the front ports isn't it? The Rega DAC looks interesting though with 5 inputs (2*coax, 2*optical 1 usb) It has been out for a little while and some are appearing on ebay which reduces the price to more like my range. Keep in mind that the Rega DAC's direct USB input implementation only supports 44.1/48 khz rates. If you want to fully use Triode's USB implemenation on the Touch, you'll need a USB/SPDIF converter to allow up to 24/96 via optical or up to 192 via coax into the Rega. Yeah its something to bear in mind. I do however use the SBT locally with a flash drive attached to the usb port. I could use the SD card slot but its more convenient to use the USB. I only have up to 24bit 96khz music ATM so I would use the optical or SPDIF if i got the Rega. Martin N Running MorphOS v2.6 (Nov 2010) on Mac Mini, Moderator of MiniDisc,amithlonopen,bwfc Yahoogroups ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Triode's USB 24/192 plug in - sound quality impressions
Triode wrote: Let's be clear on this - for period count of 4, with the TXRX spdif driver there is no point setting the buffer time above 10 as at 44.1 this gives a period time of 23219 which is is already limited by the buffer size. no point unless you want a more analogue type sound backed up by empirical testing by about 10 people. oh well, there must be some other explanation for the difference in sound caused by setting large buffers. Maybe one day we'll get to understand. Have you tried larger buffer sizes ? SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94855 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Triode's USB 24/192 plug in - sound quality impressions
SBGK wrote: no point unless you want a more analogue type sound backed up by empirical testing by about 10 people. oh well, there must be some other explanation for the difference in sound caused by setting large buffers. Maybe one day we'll get to understand. Have you tried larger buffer sizes ? Please read the code (all of which is public) - unless you make a change which impacts the active buffer size all you are doing is creating an expectation of a change - there can be no difference to the actual operation if the parameters you change does not impact the active values. I'm afraid you are hitting expectation bias here... Triode's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94855 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] NAS versus PC - any sound quality difference?
Sorry to cause trouble, just thought someone asked, if there was a difference listening to a pc or nas, I would answer as I noticed a change, so said yes. I have no clue as to why I heard a difference, same as I have no clue as to why a copper wire or interconnect sounds different to another. Yes I've learnt a bit about L C R etc, but factory internal software settings of Linux, Win and network systems is way way above my head, so I'm afraid I can't discuss as I have no clue why the nas and pc sound different. Only suggesting to those who may be interested in trying / testing / hearing if there is a difference in nas and pc, it may be worth a go. Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95276 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] NAS versus PC - any sound quality difference?
Deaf Cat wrote: ...but factory internal software settings of Linux, Win and network systems is way way above my head, so I'm afraid I can't discuss as I have no clue why the nas and pc sound different. If you did understand those things, you would accept that they could never produce a real sound quality difference between a local hard drive and a NAS device, feeding the same server. You say you've looked into LCR in relation to cables, so you would seem to be interested in reasons - so please look into the whole expectation bias thing, there is loads of information on the internet, not just related to audio. This is much more important (in terms of its effect on the results of listening tests) than almost anything that might change sound quality, never mind things that cannot. I know, I've been there, and I have the pile of unused equipment to prove it! I don't think you are causing trouble, but it is very frustrating when you refuse to engage with what is the overwhelmingly most likely cause of the differences you perceive. darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95276 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
