Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
Sorry guys, stupid thing to post this thread as I should have understood how it would come through. Can only blame it on a slight drunkeness yesterday. On the otherhand I can assure you that I really can hear the difference in the posted statements. May it be my brain that play tricks on me or not. But, an apology to those that might have been offended and an assurance of if being a troll it's totaly ethnic and not by free will:) -- itz itz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22488 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
itz;377908 Wrote: On the otherhand I can assure you that I really can hear the difference in the posted statements. May it be my brain that play tricks on me or not. Hi itz, it's -very- easy to find out. Have a friend flip a coin - heads is flac as wav, tails is native streaming for example. Then you guess which it is, friend flips again and repeats. Ideally the friend is in a different room, recording his/her sequence on a piece of paper while you record your guesses. If you have to be in the same room, no talking, or even looking at each other if possible. Do ten trials if you have the patience. If there's really a huge difference, you'll get all ten right. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
I've noticed a recent trend of repeated claims for FLAC vs WAV streaming. I think it really is about time we nailed this once and for all. Streaming WAV is not an option for me since the high-res transcoding breaks (at least I think it does - not sure with the recent changes in this space). If it WAS the case that there was a difference it could ONLY be in the jitter/noise arena. We know the bitstreams are perfect in either case. If there was a difference it could be important to understand the mechanics because it could be a specific example of a more general case that would be applicable to the SB family of devices as a whole. I'm keeping an open mind even though my personal tests show no discernible difference. This could be because something in my system mitigates against or obscures the problem. I can't do tests until the weekend as I'm away from home. I'd be interested to see what others think in the meantime. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
Phil Leigh;377937 Wrote: I've noticed a recent trend of repeated claims for FLAC vs WAV streaming. I think it really is about time we nailed this once and for all. Streaming WAV is not an option for me since the high-res transcoding breaks (at least I think it does - not sure with the recent changes in this space). Hi, All my cd's are flac, it was a good while ago I played with streaming flac and wav, and settled on the one which does not allow fast forward or rewind from the remote, pretty sure its wav, simply to my ears it was worth loosing the ff frw functions compared with the better sounding music coming out. anyways.. Happy New Year ! DC -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
dlhamby;377847 Wrote: Sample jitter is interesting. From my introduction to digital signal processing in college, jitter (non-uniform sampling in geek speak) introduces noise in the reconstructed audio. A classmate did his masters thesis on the subject deriving the effects of nonuniform sampling. My recollection is that he concluded that the noise was Gaussian for the sample jitter distribution that he examined. This would show up as a raised noise floor in the playback. It would be hard to notice a tiny amount of jitter on most program material. There is some evidence that sample jitter might induce side bands too, they might become audible But it remains a complex phenomenon. The little bit (to obvious pun intended) I understand about it can be found here: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/BitPerfectJitter.htm Placebo: yep, spend a fortune on it, a proper ABX (like opaqueice pointed out) testing will protect you (and your wallet) against it. -- Vincent Vincent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11631 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
itz;377810 Wrote: At the risk of being declared the fool on the hill, I have some questions/statements. To my ears in my rigg (with external dac): 1. Squeezecenter on Nas (Synology 107+128) sounds a lot better than on puter with XP. 2. Flac's streamed as wav sounds better then native streaming. 3. Squeezecenter 7.3.1 sounds wierd compaired with 7.2.1. 4. SPDIF sound better then Toslink. Help me, please, I really don't believe in this kind of shit but to my ears it makes a huge difference. Probably I'm imagining the whole thing or have a psykotic disease or something but it's driving me mad as I can't find any way to explain it to my self. And by the way, a happy new year to all of you out there. Cheers / Stefan 1, very dark, streaming is streaming except if we look at point 2. Are you 180% sure that the settings of SC on XP and NAS are 100% identical 2 This claim I know from another forum (http://www.audioasylum.com/) The explanation is that WAV being straight 16/44.1 PCM audio, requires less processing power than decoding any other format. A lot of sound cards are very sensitive to EMI/RFI/ PSU ripples. So if processing power increases, sound quality drops. Cant say I ever noticed this my self. 4 As far as I know, Toslink is SPDIF over optical. Bit unclear to me what you have compared but different implementations (coax/optical) might sound different. If this is about feeding SPDIF in two different ways to a external DAC, this might indicate that the two differs in the amount of input jitter they generate. Alternatively the ability of the DAC to reject input jitter is insufficient. -- Vincent Vincent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11631 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
Vincent;378117 Wrote: ...this might indicate that the two differs in the amount of input jitter they generate. This then would also be applicable to different cables? For example, at MusicDirect they are selling this digital cable with their ipod dock packages: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/83222 (Black Knight, $99). I'm using the Blue Jeans digital cable ( http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm ). That one is around $14. I don't see why one would be better than the other, unless there's something going on with jitter and such... -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
Phil Leigh;377937 Wrote: I've noticed a recent trend of repeated claims for FLAC vs WAV streaming. I think it really is about time we nailed this once and for all. Streaming WAV is not an option for me since the high-res transcoding breaks (at least I think it does - not sure with the recent changes in this space). Yes Hi-Res does break using wav. At least with the current released version it does. The firmware inside the squeezebox does not know how to decode wav files beyond 16/44.1 or 16/48. Maybe it's the noisy XP PC vs a silent NAS is the difference he's hearing :) I tested very extensively by recording the digital feeds going to my active digital speakers with a S/PDIF recorder. I could recapture the original stream and diff it and it was 100% the same. Also recorded DTS and then played it back through. This was all with flac. Only thing not measured is jitter differences. Which is hard to believe would change between clocking out from the decoded buffers in the SB3 which OS is running on the server. If OP DAC is that sensitive maybe he should think about getting a better one. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
What did you do for controls, Stefan? Unless you controlled for level and experienced all of this double blind, it is likely that you are experiencing placebo effect on some of these, particularly those changes where the squeezebox or transporter is doing the final retiming and conversion. Bits are bits. If you keep the Squeezebox fed and are feeding it the same format, it should not care where the bits came from. After all, the BBC makes it all the way to you from the UK with a second of latency and maybe 0.1 second of latency jitter. Squeezecenter can buffer it and spool it to Squeezebox which has yet another jitter buffer. Squeezebox reconstructs and retimes the sample stream. All the jitter in the world (well until the buffer runs dry :) never reaches your ear, just that introduced by the Squeezebox itself. With this understanding, moving your music library from an internal disk to a NAS should have no effect on the sound coming out of the Squeezebox or Transporter. Some of the other changes such as SPDIF to TOSLink may. SPDIF is notorious for its jitter. But again, we are filling a buffer and regenerating the timing. I can see a difference resulting if the jitter is so bad that a bit is lost every now and again. This would cause actual errors or dropouts in the sample stream. The way around this is to use forward error correction by using Hamming coding or one of the newer forward error correcting techniques like those used in disk drives. Even if a bit is lost every now and again, the bit-stream can be recovered. I don't really know the details of SPDIF, only that it dates back to the beginnings of digital audio production equipment and is obsolescent. Bit jitter should not have a big effect on playback as long as all of the bits can be recovered correctly off the SPDIF waveform. The bit stream can always be buffered and retimed. The last device to buffer and retime the bit stream determines the pitch accuracy and sample jitter. What happens along the way is not seen unless the pipeline goes dry. Sample jitter is interesting. From my introduction to digital signal processing in college, jitter (non-uniform sampling in geek speak) introduces noise in the reconstructed audio. A classmate did his masters thesis on the subject deriving the effects of nonuniform sampling. My recollection is that he concluded that the noise was Gaussian for the sample jitter distribution that he examined. This would show up as a raised noise floor in the playback. It would be hard to notice a tiny amount of jitter on most program material. FLAC and Apple Lossless do give you back the original bits. Folks have verified this. I ripped an CD to one of each, loaded into Audacity, and played the tracks. I couldn't hear a difference. There can be a difference if you are not normalizing the levels or you are using different play back level management schemes. These can cause the levels to differ enough to fool you. I demonstrated placebo effect to myself some years ago. I bought some Nordost cables (the modest ones) to replace some way too long monster cable that came with my trusty DQ-10's in the early days of Monster. The difference was dramatic after the change. The next day, things were back to normal. I expected a change and, by Jove, I heard one. I'm not so quick to form opinions about a change after that experience. Interestingly, the woofer surrounds failed and I never noticed. I had a local pro audio shop renew the surrounds and the DQ-10s are still going strong at 30 years young. It has been 13 years so I've forgotten what prompted me to take the front panels off to look. My rig: SB3, Conrad Johnson PV-1, Gas Ampzilla, Dhalquist DQ-10s. Computer audio: Presonus 1394 and Monsoon Audio planar desktop speakers. -- dlhamby dlhamby's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12801 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
itz;377810 Wrote: At the risk of being declared the fool on the hill, I have some questions/statements. To my ears in my rigg (with external dac): 1. Squeezecenter on Nas (Synology 107+128) sounds a lot better than on puter with XP. 2. Flac's streamed as wav sounds better then native streaming. 3. Squeezecenter 7.3.1 sounds wierd compaired with 7.2.1. 4. SPDIF sound better then Toslink. Help me, please, I really don't believe in this kind of shit but to my ears it makes a huge difference. Probably I'm imagining the whole thing or have a psykotic disease or something but it's driving me mad as I can't find any way to explain it to my self. And by the way, a happy new year to all of you out there. Cheers / Stefan Firstly you're brand new to this forum and secondly you've got a shopping list of statements to kick off a big argument. Whether you realise it or not, people are going to think that combination means you're a troll. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
Yeah ! Happy new year to you, too, Stephan. ;) (giving troll lessons for free) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Explain this, please.
darrenyeats;377848 Wrote: Hi Stefan, Firstly you're brand new to this forum and secondly you've got a shopping list of statements to kick off a big argument. Whether you realise it or not, people are going to think that combination means you're a troll. Darren It's proper 'Happy New Year' trolling though, don'cha think? :) Quality first post, I reckon :D -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, dCS Purcell, Ack Dac, Audion Quattro, Welborne DRD 300Bs, Lowther Big Fun Horns with PM6As adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57449 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
