Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Richard Frawley]

yes, what value does the L2 actually provide and what knowledge gap exists

> On 4 Feb 2017, at 5:55 PM, Greg Wilson  wrote:
> 
> One low cost step toward improving the gliding "product" would be to make GPC 
> holders responsible for their own flying instead of relying on a L2 
> instructor's presence at launch.
> 
> I can understand how the current system evolved from clubs wanting to control 
> pilots in their aircraft but surely it's time for this outdated system to be 
> relinquished.
> 
> Enough discussion here may even start movement in that direction from GFA. 
> What do you think?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Greg Wilson
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  On Sat, 04 Feb 2017 11:13:37 +1100 James 
> McDowall wrote 
> 
> Before it is worth spending another cent on marketing gliding, it is 
> essential to get the product right. After 30 years of flogging the current 
> model all that has been achieved is a 50% reduction in membership. In the 
> same period the population of Australia increased by 50% so the market 
> penetration of the product has fallen by two thirds. Any commercial product 
> manager who did not address the product deficiencies in this situation who 
> most certainly end up unemployed.
> 
> The fundamental problem is that the core membership have a propensity to say 
> “I bought the product and it works for me so it is a good product.” This 
> illusory logic is what has caused some notable marketing failures from the 
> Ford Edsel to Kodak to Blackberry and Nokia.
> 
> The problem is illustrated in this forum where many experienced and 
> passionate glider pilots, many of them not currently involved in the activity 
> (is it really a sport?), have identified that the product is wrong for the 
> current marketplace.
> 
> Over the decades GFA and others have sought to “market” the product ie join a 
> club, be a volunteer, get fried in the sun and always be under the control of 
> a CFI even if he/she is not even near the airfield.
> 
> Gliding is not really a cheap alternative to RA_Aus. You and a couple of 
> mates can buy a Jab for $25K and have a heap of fun. Registration and 
> membership cost are lower and maintenance costs are similar until the donk 
> spits a dummy in which case there of plenty of secondhand motors around. In 
> the meantime many flyng hours on your terms.
> 
> Gliding needs to get closer to the GA / RA-Aus model. The days of primary 
> gliders on the Wussekrappe are well gone. Independent operation of gliders 
> needs to be encouraged not seen as a distant goal for a newbie. Self 
> launchers should be mandatory for training (GFA could use its millions to 
> help out here), commercial training operations encouraged to unload clubs of 
> the responsibility and GFA should get out of the rule writing business.
> 
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Stuart Wolf  wrote:
> It would be interesting to get a survey to that effect. I have found that 
> with the people I have tried to recruit. Those who show an interest see it as 
> a high performance sport.
> 
> Aside from the sporting aspect, what does gliding hope to offer a new member?
> Cheap flying? Prices are compatible to RA-Aus.
> Convenient flying? No matter about procedural changes at the club level 
> powered will always have the upper hand.
> Professional opportunities? Again, RA aus can be converted to GA and 
> commercial much easier
> Cost of ownership? I have much more options in Ra Australia, especially at 
> the lower end of the market. 
> 
> Instead of trying to copy RA aus's attraction (on which gliding will always 
> be on the back foot) we should be chasing the people who want what Ra Aus 
> doesnt offer.
> 
> I've found that sharing tasks and talking about performance of people at 
> comps has attracted more follow up and continuing engagement on the topic 
> than the flying aspect. 
> 
> The people who I have got interested in the flying have moved on to RA Aus 
> for the exact reasons I've stated
> 
> 
> 
> On Friday, February 3, 2017, Matthew Scutter  wrote:
> Regarding the competition pilot vs. non-competition pilot debate, I don't 
> think I've met a junior that hasn't been, or doesn't want to go to Joeyglide. 
> Perhaps in the broader population competition pilots are under represented, 
> but amongst younger pilots (fresh blood) it seems to swing the other way.
> 
> On 3 Feb 2017 2:56 PM, "Greg Wilson"  wrote:
> In an attempt to get a worthwhile discussion get back on track. Not my ideas 
> but a brief summary of this conversation so far.
> 
> Perceived problems:
> 
> GFA administration
> Overly focused on competition carried out by a tiny minority of pilots
> Resistant to change
> Minimum required to deal with CASA
> 
> Clubs  
> Membership declining
> 
> Training
> Volunteer based - not providing scheduled and efficient training expected by 
> younger people
> Instructors need to be paid

Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Greg Wilson]

One low cost step toward improving the gliding "product" would be 
to make GPC holders responsible for their own flying instead of relying on a L2 
instructor's presence at launch.I can understand how the current system evolved 
from clubs wanting to control pilots in their aircraft but surely it's time for 
this outdated system to be relinquished.Enough discussion here may even start 
movement in that direction from GFA. What do you think?Regards,Greg Wilson 
On Sat, 04 Feb 2017 11:13:37 +1100  James McDowall 
wrote  Before it is worth spending another cent on marketing gliding, it is 
essential to get the product right. After 30 years of flogging the current 
model all that has been achieved is a 50% reduction in membership. In the same 
period the population of Australia increased by 50% so the market penetration 
of the product has fallen by two thirds. Any commercial product manager who did 
not address the product deficiencies in this situation who most certainly end 
up unemployed.The fundamental problem is that the core membership have a 
propensity to say “I bought the product and it works for me so it is a good 
product.” This illusory logic is what has caused some notable marketing 
failures from the Ford Edsel to Kodak to Blackberry and Nokia.The problem 
is illustrated in this forum where many experienced and passionate glider 
pilots, many of them not currently involved in the activity (is it really a 
sport?), have identified that the product is wrong for the current marketplace. 
   Over the decades GFA and others have sought to “market” the product ie join 
a club, be a volunteer, get fried in the sun and always be under the control of 
a CFI even if he/she is not even near the airfield.  Gliding is not really 
a cheap alternative to RA_Aus. You and a couple of mates can buy a Jab for $25K 
and have a heap of fun. Registration and membership cost are lower and 
maintenance costs are similar until the donk spits a dummy in which case there 
of plenty of secondhand motors around. In the meantime many flyng hours on your 
terms.Gliding needs to get closer to the GA / RA-Aus model. The days of 
primary gliders on the Wussekrappe are well gone. Independent operation of 
gliders needs to be encouraged not seen as a distant goal for a newbie. Self 
launchers should be mandatory for training (GFA could use its millions to help 
out here), commercial training operations encouraged to unload clubs of the 
responsibility and GFA should get out of the rule writing business.   On Fri, 
Feb 3, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Stuart Wolf  wrote:It would be 
interesting to get a survey to that effect. I have found that with the people I 
have tried to recruit. Those who show an interest see it as a high performance 
sport.Aside from the sporting aspect, what does gliding hope to offer a new 
member?Cheap flying? Prices are compatible to RA-Aus.Convenient flying? No 
matter about procedural changes at the club level powered will always have the 
upper hand.Professional opportunities? Again, RA aus can be converted to GA and 
commercial much easierCost of ownership? I have much more options in Ra 
Australia, especially at the lower end of the market. Instead of trying to copy 
RA aus's attraction (on which gliding will always be on the back foot) we 
should be chasing the people who want what Ra Aus doesnt offer.I've found that 
sharing tasks and talking about performance of people at comps has attracted 
more follow up and continuing engagement on the topic than the flying aspect. 
The people who I have got interested in the flying have moved on to RA Aus for 
the exact reasons I've statedOn Friday, February 3, 2017, Matthew Scutter 
 wrote:Regarding the competition pilot vs. 
non-competition pilot debate, I don't think I've met a junior that hasn't been, 
or doesn't want to go to Joeyglide. Perhaps in the broader population 
competition pilots are under represented, but amongst younger pilots (fresh 
blood) it seems to swing the other way.On 3 Feb 2017 2:56 PM, "Greg Wilson" 
 wrote:In an attempt to get a worthwhile discussion get 
back on track. Not my ideas but a brief summary of this conversation so 
far.Perceived problems:GFA administrationOverly focused on competition carried 
out by a tiny minority of pilotsResistant to changeMinimum required to deal 
with CASAClubs  Membership decliningTrainingVolunteer based - not providing 
scheduled and efficient training expected by younger peopleInstructors need to 
be paidPilotsVery few given L2 independent ops so vast majority permanently 
operating under supervision of instructorsGliding responsibility needs to be in 
the hands of the pilot, not club or CFIAging pilotsAircraftMany aging 
glidersmany out of service yet still on registerSolutions??Greg Wilson On 
Thu, 02 Feb 2017 21:40:18 +1100 Robert 

Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Laurie Simpkins]

I have a problem with ever converting to GA or RA-Aus as they don't fly 
gliders. I'm in a gliding club for that reason. I had a PPL but only used it 
for towing ( one of those dumb volunteers I know) but don't have the time or 
money to maintain it.

I enjoyed your post Erich and was suitable insulted as a current GFA 
volunteer[].

I do wonder who we are trying to attract and how these ideas of spending vast 
amount in marketing are going to keep the price down.


Unless we are planning to become a bunch of elitist pilots IMHO we need to 
encourage the average person in to the sport and that in my eyes meaning 
keeping the price down so possibly some one with a wife ,husband, girlfriend, 
boyfriend, cat , dog, family and mortgage can still afford it. (politically 
correct I hope). The wealthier end of market will probably just buy their own 
self launcher anyway, but can still be great club members.

The people I have introduced that where keen only had one issue and that was 
the amount of spare income they had to play with.

 All loved it and couldn't tell the difference between a flying a 40 grand twin 
or a much more expensive duo. Even flew some in the T53 and a Blanik and all 
had a great time so maybe you don't need to learn to drive in the Ferrari as 
some people I have dealt with would have you believe.


The club environment/structure  is set up for looking after members as opposed 
to turning the whole sport commercial.

Nothing against commercial operations and I wish them all the best but many 
have tried before and unless you can afford to be a private owner/ motorglider 
where do you go after learning to fly. A club I assume.


I don't see anybody  addressing the non owner club population or the more 
remote clubs in these solutions.

I doubt the guys in my state at Townsville, Bundy,  Central Qld, Gympie will 
want to travel to some commercial /super club to do their gliding so I wont be 
surprised if the smaller clubs are more resilient than some think. Maybe spend 
some marketing money there except I think a some of the punters hope they die 
out.

As for the ex members who have left the sport ( and still trying to run it or 
criticize it) maybe you need to find a club that suits you and try it again. 
The GFA may not be perfect but has a lot of average members trying their best 
in their spare time as well.

But then my love of gliding prevents me from leaving so maybe im blind to the 
imperfections.


Looking forward to gliding this weekend, and for the others I hope you enjoy 
what ever form of aviation you have chosen.


Laurie









From: Stuart Wolf 
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017 5:42 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

It would be interesting to get a survey to that effect. I have found that with 
the people I have tried to recruit. Those who show an interest see it as a high 
performance sport.

Aside from the sporting aspect, what does gliding hope to offer a new member?
Cheap flying? Prices are compatible to RA-Aus.
Convenient flying? No matter about procedural changes at the club level powered 
will always have the upper hand.
Professional opportunities? Again, RA aus can be converted to GA and commercial 
much easier
Cost of ownership? I have much more options in Ra Australia, especially at the 
lower end of the market.

Instead of trying to copy RA aus's attraction (on which gliding will always be 
on the back foot) we should be chasing the people who want what Ra Aus doesnt 
offer.

I've found that sharing tasks and talking about performance of people at comps 
has attracted more follow up and continuing engagement on the topic than the 
flying aspect.

The people who I have got interested in the flying have moved on to RA Aus for 
the exact reasons I've stated



On Friday, February 3, 2017, Matthew Scutter 
> wrote:
Regarding the competition pilot vs. non-competition pilot debate, I don't think 
I've met a junior that hasn't been, or doesn't want to go to Joeyglide. Perhaps 
in the broader population competition pilots are under represented, but amongst 
younger pilots (fresh blood) it seems to swing the other way.

On 3 Feb 2017 2:56 PM, "Greg Wilson"  wrote:
In an attempt to get a worthwhile discussion get back on track. Not my ideas 
but a brief summary of this conversation so far.

Perceived problems:

GFA administration
Overly focused on competition carried out by a tiny minority of pilots
Resistant to change
Minimum required to deal with CASA

Clubs
Membership declining

Training
Volunteer based - not providing scheduled and efficient training expected by 
younger people
Instructors need to be paid

Pilots
Very few given L2 independent ops so vast majority permanently operating under 
supervision of instructors
Gliding responsibility needs to be 

Re: [Aus-soaring] more light hearted WAS: MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Paul Bart]

Thanks for the explanation Richard. Will read the article for sure.

Cheers


Paul

On 3 Feb. 2017 21:08, "Richard Frawley"  wrote:

> all ok, was not offended.
>
> heat stroke (not dehydration), was the cause, very hot, too long
> struggling in difficult conditions and my fault for not giving myself
> longer to recover from bad gastro (a week before)….
>
> fainted on short final. hit a tree (luckily) which saved my life as did
> the farmer in the paddock who saw me crash and stopped me bleeding to death.
>
> I will get around to writing it up for the magazine soon.
>
> Longer recovery is something we all need to be mindful of, especially as
> we get older.
>
>
>
> On 3 Feb 2017, at 8:46 pm, Paul Bart  wrote:
>
> Sorry Richard, please accept my apology.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Paul
>
> On 3 Feb. 2017 18:40, "Richard Frawley"  wrote:
>
>> ahh, not when your unconscious
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3 Feb 2017, at 7:08 PM, Paul Bart  wrote:
>>
>>
>> LS8 decided to land in tree
>>
>> Gliders never make decisions, pilots do.
>>
>> Ultimate denial?
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On 3 Feb. 2017 13:40, "Richard Frawley"  wrote:
>>
>>> this is chilled, happy to really lash out  if you want. this is good
>>> rehab from the 12 weeks in hospital after the LS8 decided to land in tree
>>>
>>> > On 3 Feb 2017, at 2:09 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> get grief, go get a life […]
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > How about y’all just chill out a bit.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >   - mark
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > Aus-soaring mailing list
>>> > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
>>> > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>> ___
>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>
>> ___
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>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] more light hearted WAS: MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Richard Frawley]

all ok, was not offended.

heat stroke (not dehydration), was the cause, very hot, too long struggling in 
difficult conditions and my fault for not giving myself longer to recover from 
bad gastro (a week before)….

fainted on short final. hit a tree (luckily) which saved my life as did the 
farmer in the paddock who saw me crash and stopped me bleeding to death.

I will get around to writing it up for the magazine soon.

Longer recovery is something we all need to be mindful of, especially as we get 
older.



> On 3 Feb 2017, at 8:46 pm, Paul Bart  wrote:
> 
> Sorry Richard, please accept my apology.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> On 3 Feb. 2017 18:40, "Richard Frawley"  > wrote:
> ahh, not when your unconscious
> 
> 
> 
> On 3 Feb 2017, at 7:08 PM, Paul Bart  > wrote:
> 
>> 
>> LS8 decided to land in tree
>> 
>> Gliders never make decisions, pilots do.
>> 
>> Ultimate denial?
>> 
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> On 3 Feb. 2017 13:40, "Richard Frawley" > > wrote:
>> this is chilled, happy to really lash out  if you want. this is good rehab 
>> from the 12 weeks in hospital after the LS8 decided to land in tree
>> 
>> > On 3 Feb 2017, at 2:09 PM, Mark Newton > > > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> get grief, go get a life […]
>> >
>> >
>> > How about y’all just chill out a bit.
>> >
>> >
>> >   - mark
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Aus-soaring mailing list
>> > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au 
>> > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>> > 
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au 
>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>> 
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au 
>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>> 
> 
> ___
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> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] more light hearted WAS: MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Paul Bart]

Sorry Richard, please accept my apology.



Cheers


Paul

On 3 Feb. 2017 18:40, "Richard Frawley"  wrote:

> ahh, not when your unconscious
>
>
>
> On 3 Feb 2017, at 7:08 PM, Paul Bart  wrote:
>
>
> LS8 decided to land in tree
>
> Gliders never make decisions, pilots do.
>
> Ultimate denial?
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Paul
>
> On 3 Feb. 2017 13:40, "Richard Frawley"  wrote:
>
>> this is chilled, happy to really lash out  if you want. this is good
>> rehab from the 12 weeks in hospital after the LS8 decided to land in tree
>>
>> > On 3 Feb 2017, at 2:09 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> get grief, go get a life […]
>> >
>> >
>> > How about y’all just chill out a bit.
>> >
>> >
>> >   - mark
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Aus-soaring mailing list
>> > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
>> > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>
> ___
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> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] more light hearted WAS: MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Paul Bart]

LS8 decided to land in tree

Gliders never make decisions, pilots do.

Ultimate denial?


Cheers


Paul

On 3 Feb. 2017 13:40, "Richard Frawley"  wrote:

> this is chilled, happy to really lash out  if you want. this is good rehab
> from the 12 weeks in hospital after the LS8 decided to land in tree
>
> > On 3 Feb 2017, at 2:09 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> get grief, go get a life […]
> >
> >
> > How about y’all just chill out a bit.
> >
> >
> >   - mark
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Aus-soaring mailing list
> > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
> > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
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