Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Tim Shirley]

If it would be useful , it can be added to the membership system 
easily.  It would of course be optional.


Cheers

/Tim Shirley/

/tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare/

On 05/06/2014 14:49, Morgan wrote:


In answer to the original question, one good feature of the SSA 
(American) website is that the "tracking URL" of members is available 
online. It is not limited to any particular service, although most 
pilots use SPOT. If you know that Person X took off from your site 
this morning, you can find their tracking link through the SSA and go 
immediately to their service's map page to see where they are.


This also appears to be the main source of GlidePortAero's database. 
They may have just copied the SSA database to get the name and contest 
ID for all the tracks that they show on their maps.


Perhaps the GFA can add this to the membership system? I publish my 
SPOT link on my personal website but not many people would think of 
looking there in an emergency.


-Morgan

*From:*aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of 
*Laurie Hoffman

*Sent:* Wednesday, 4 June 2014 5:39 PM
*To:* aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
*Subject:* [Aus-soaring] Position Info

Hi All,

Have been thinking about our need for a programme that will give spot 
info primarily in the event of a need for SAR.


Has anyone had success with something that offers real time data and 
that doesn't need sms which would become expensive with regular 
monitoring?


*/Regards/*

*/Laurie Hoffman/*



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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Morgan]

In answer to the original question, one good feature of the SSA (American)
website is that the "tracking URL" of members is available online. It is not
limited to any particular service, although most pilots use SPOT. If you
know that Person X took off from your site this morning, you can find their
tracking link through the SSA and go immediately to their service's map page
to see where they are. 

 

This also appears to be the main source of GlidePortAero's database. They
may have just copied the SSA database to get the name and contest ID for all
the tracks that they show on their maps.

 

Perhaps the GFA can add this to the membership system? I publish my SPOT
link on my personal website but not many people would think of looking there
in an emergency.

 

-  Morgan

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Laurie
Hoffman
Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014 5:39 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

 

Hi All,

Have been thinking about our need for a programme that will give spot info
primarily in the event of a need for SAR.

Has anyone had success with something that offers real time data and that
doesn't need sms which would become expensive with regular monitoring?

 

Regards 

Laurie Hoffman

 

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Morgan]

I still have one of the early SPOTs and see no reason to upgrade. In fact I
think the limitations of the system are important features for glider
pilots.

In a competition context, the 10-minute updates with no altitude information
mean that there is no competitive information broadcast. Your crew can't
call you on the radio to let you know that your arch-nemesis is 5km behind
you. But it gives supremely accurate information for retrieves and SAR. If
we could know where the Malaysian airlines flight was 10-20 minutes before
it crashed, the search time would only be a few hours, not months or years.
I've been on retrieves where we were given a google maps printout of the
field, with the access gates identifiable.

It's sort of like the mistake the americans have made with PowerFlarm. They
are trying to get it to receive Flarm transmissions many miles away when the
real benefit of Flarm is alerts to gliders that are close enough to read the
letters on the side.

The Delorme system is great because it gives altitude. There are certain
types of soaring where your crew really needs to know this. It costs more
than SPOT so there's a cost-benefit tradeoff. Individuals now have the
choice to make that decision for themselves. If you really like the text
messaging ability, then perhaps you should get a proper satellite phone.
Once again, higher cost but more benefits - like you can actually make a
call from any outlanding anywhere.

 - Morgan

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of DMcD
Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014 8:03 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

>> It's free, permits multiple device types (SPOT, InReach etc),

Interesting.

I don't plan to use Spot next season. There are better alternatives.

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Laurie Hoffman]

Greatly appreciate the amount of and variety of responses to this. Head is 
spinning!
Just to clarify that when I used the 'spot' it was in the broader sense of 
regular location updates and not specifically in reference to Spot.
 
Regards 
Laurie Hoffman








On Thursday, 5 June 2014 10:38 AM, Laurie Hoffman  wrote:
 


Hi All,
Have been thinking about our need for a programme that will give spot info 
primarily in the event of a need for SAR.

Has anyone had success with something that offers real time data and that 
doesn't need sms which would become expensive with regular monitoring?
 
Regards 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Paul Bart]

Hi DMcD

Would you mind expanding on the alternatives please?



Cheers

Paul


On 5 June 2014 13:03, DMcD  wrote:

> >> It's free, permits multiple device types (SPOT, InReach etc),
>
> Interesting.
>
> I don't plan to use Spot next season. There are better alternatives.
>
> D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Scott Penrose]

On 5 Jun 2014, at 1:03 pm, DMcD  wrote:

> I don't plan to use Spot next season. There are better alternatives.

What are they? 

* Radio - not technically allowed in the glider, special equipment needed, not 
long distances, ground stations required.
* GSM - Not enough coverage in Australia, again not technically allowed by 
operators (although not policed either)

As far as I know there are only two satellite systems available that cover 
where we fly, Iridium and GlobalStar - SPOT is the cheapest Global Star system 
that I know of, and Iridium.

Each time I investigate the alternatives I find that the subscription costs are 
lower, but the per message is far higher, so trying to do a 1 minute update 
(new SPOT can do more often updates) or 10 minutes (like old SPOTs) is 
prohibitively expensive due to those transmission costs.

Might be worth coming up with a page and some coverage maps - so we can see 
what technology covers what areas. 

Hard to beat something for 10 minute updates for $150 a year though ($11 a 
month).

Scott

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Scott Penrose]

Howdy Mark

Thanks for the info.

Sorry if you thought I was questioning your price for justification. Certainly 
not. Not judging at all, and I have been a club treasurer :-)

I was only asking if the FLARM entries also need to pay the price, so the 
answer is yes.

Thanks :-)

Scott

On 5 Jun 2014, at 1:00 pm, Mark Fisher  wrote:

> Hi Scott,
> 
> W have driven the hardware costs down to a point where make almost nothing on 
> it. The aim is to recoup investment through annual pilot subs.
> You will be one who will understand the efforts to keep the back-end of 
> dittolog running smoothly.
> 
> So , in an effort to be specific.
> Dittolog will record the takeoffs and landings of all aircraft with Flarm, 
> providing we have the FlarmID and the owners name registered. We also record 
> the release height and time to release. (The tug dittolog monitors the 
> following glider by dittolog and /or flarm transmissions)
> A club is asked to pay the Euro30 per member for any flying member.
> A Flarm can only be registered to a Flying member with paid subs.
> We have done all we can to make dittolog affordable for all clubs. If a 
> member is not happy about paying A$39 a year , they really should ask the 
> question ' Would i like to volunteer to be club treasurer?"
> Dittolog relieve people in clubs of an ENORMOUS amount of work.
> We hope the new pricing structure encourages people to take it on.
> 
> Give me a call at the business to discuss you idea!!
> 
> Cheers
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Scott Penrose  wrote:
> 
> On 5 Jun 2014, at 11:38 am, Mark Fisher  wrote:
> 
>> Note that we do get takeoff and landings from ALL Flarm aircraft registered 
>> on our site, regardless of whether they have a dittolog device installed.
>> 
> 
> That is something I have always wanted to do - awesome. 
> So would we have to pay 30euros per member if they don't have a ditto log? Or 
> can we get away with just the ground station and lower prices? Specifically 
> here I am wondering if you can use a ground station for private members with 
> FLARM, and a ditto log for club gliders.
> 
> Mind you this doesn't really cover SAR, since you don't have logs when not at 
> home. So we still need integrate SPOT.
> 
> I like the idea of having these as services (ignoring issues of privacy and 
> security for the moment - there are solutions there later) - a service where 
> I can ask if a plane has landed (e.g. ditto log - direct or flarm, XCSoar or 
> other tracking); or if not, where they last were (XCSoar and other tracking 
> if via GSM, or SPOT data if not).
> 
> Simple GET REST API with glider registrations would mean I could integrate 
> data from multiples sources onto a single screen.
> 
> RE: Security - it is easy to have a service which requires authentication, 
> and then have it so pilots can "opt in" to allow data to be give to that 
> service, similar to how you would approve apps in Facebook.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark Fisher
> Managing Director
> Swift Performance Equipment
> Unit 2, 1472 Boundary Rd
> Wacol 4076
> Australia
> Ph:   +61 7 3879 3005
> Fax: +61 7 36076277
> www.spe.com.au
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[DMcD]

>> It's free, permits multiple device types (SPOT, InReach etc),

Interesting.

I don't plan to use Spot next season. There are better alternatives.

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Mark Fisher]

Hi Scott,

W have driven the hardware costs down to a point where make almost nothing
on it. The aim is to recoup investment through annual pilot subs.
You will be one who will understand the efforts to keep the back-end of
dittolog running smoothly.

So , in an effort to be specific.

   - Dittolog will record the takeoffs and landings of all aircraft with
   Flarm, providing we have the FlarmID and the owners name registered. We
   also record the release height and time to release. (The tug dittolog
   monitors the following glider by dittolog and /or flarm transmissions)
   - A club is asked to pay the Euro30 per member for any flying member.
   - A Flarm can only be registered to a Flying member with paid subs.

We have done all we can to make dittolog affordable for all clubs. If a
member is not happy about paying A$39 a year , they really should ask the
question ' Would i like to volunteer to be club treasurer?"
Dittolog relieve people in clubs of an ENORMOUS amount of work.
We hope the new pricing structure encourages people to take it on.

Give me a call at the business to discuss you idea!!

Cheers
Mark




On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Scott Penrose  wrote:

>
> On 5 Jun 2014, at 11:38 am, Mark Fisher  wrote:
>
> Note that we do get takeoff and landings from ALL Flarm aircraft
> registered on our site, regardless of whether they have a dittolog device
> installed.
>
>
> That is something I have always wanted to do - awesome.
> So would we have to pay 30euros per member if they don't have a ditto log?
> Or can we get away with just the ground station and lower prices?
> Specifically here I am wondering if you can use a ground station for
> private members with FLARM, and a ditto log for club gliders.
>
> Mind you this doesn't really cover SAR, since you don't have logs when not
> at home. So we still need integrate SPOT.
>
> I like the idea of having these as services (ignoring issues of privacy
> and security for the moment - there are solutions there later) - a service
> where I can ask if a plane has landed (e.g. ditto log - direct or flarm,
> XCSoar or other tracking); or if not, where they last were (XCSoar and
> other tracking if via GSM, or SPOT data if not).
>
> Simple GET REST API with glider registrations would mean I could integrate
> data from multiples sources onto a single screen.
>
> RE: Security - it is easy to have a service which requires authentication,
> and then have it so pilots can "opt in" to allow data to be give to that
> service, similar to how you would approve apps in Facebook.
>
> Scott
>
>
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-- 
Mark Fisher
Managing Director
Swift Performance Equipment
Unit 2, 1472 Boundary Rd
Wacol 4076
Australia
Ph:   +61 7 3879 3005
Fax: +61 7 36076277
www.spe.com.au
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Jim Staniforth]

  SPOT is a good service and has been around for years. I've used it 
since before they introduced "shared page" tracking. Delorme InReach, 
especially the InReach SE, is a better product but at a higher operating 
cost. The Explorer version can also be used for navigation. With InReach 
you can dictate an SMS to your mobile phone and through bluetooth and 
satellite send it, and receive a response.

But better quality at a higher cost is not what the original post was about!
  APRS over the amateur radio band is a possibility.
>>> Requires an amateur radio licence for anyone who will be 
broadcasting. <<<
APRS uses a radio like the Yaesu VX-8R with GPS module. Or aByonics 
system likethe $260US Micro-Trak AIO will track automatically, but is of 
no use as a 2-way communications radio. The Yaesu can be used for voice 
communications over the amateur radio band pre/post-flight.
  Usage(standard protocol is 3-minute intervals which include Lat/Lon, 
Alt, Speed, Direction) is free. Tracking is monitored on a website like 
aprs.fi or openaprs.net at no charge. They will accept a donation if you 
choose.

Jim

Associated links:

Getting an amateur radio licence:
http://www.wia.org.au/licenses/foundation/about/

APRS information:
http://www.aprs.net.au/

Delorme:
http://www.inreachdelorme.com/

VX-8R:
http://www.yaesu.com/indexVS.cfm?cmd=DisplayProducts&ProdCatID=111&encProdID=64C913CDBC183621AAA39980149EA8C6

Byonics:
http://www.byonics.com/mt-aio

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Scott Penrose]

Awesome. Will try it out. It was not one I was aware of.

Scott

On 5 Jun 2014, at 12:00 pm, Casey Jay Lewis  wrote:

> Good morning Scott & Laurie,
> 
> Have you considered using GlidePort.aero ?  It's free, permits multiple 
> device types (SPOT, InReach etc), is glider centric (competition numbers, 
> glider ports supported), is in real time and shows broadcast messages (check 
> in's, retrieve me's, etc).
> 
> Brgds,
> 
> Casey
> 
> iPad transmission
> 
> 
> 
>> From: Laurie Hoffman 
>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Position Info
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> Have been thinking about our need for a programme that will give spot info 
>> primarily in the event of a need for SAR.
>> 
>> Has anyone had success with something that offers real time data and that 
>> doesn't need sms which would become expensive with regular monitoring?
>> ?
>> Regards 
>> 
>> From: Scott Penrose 
>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info
>> 
>> Yes we do that at gliding club victoria. It is quite easy to read the Public 
>> URL data and process the information.
>> 
>> Buzz me off line if you want some code.
>> 
>> My altimeter goal (should one day I actually have that elusive thing called 
>> time) is to integrate it as a service that adds to other services, so you 
>> can take the SPOT data from the public URLs and put it up on skylines - 
>> instead of maintaining our own maps - http://skylines.xcsoar.org/ - but 
>> making it plugins so we could have a simple CGI / HTMP Page that updates 
>> with just the ?issues? (e.g. landed, not home, or Help pressed etc), up to 
>> and including custom Google Maps output (which is what we do at GCV).
>> 
>> There is a 3rd way (SMS you mentioned, and Public URLs I mentioned) and that 
>> is via email. The email can also be automatically processed. Email and 
>> public URLs cost nothing - but don?t do constant tracking, so require 
>> someone press OK, or Help, or on the newer models - custom message.
>> 
>> Scott
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Scott Penrose]

On 5 Jun 2014, at 11:38 am, Mark Fisher  wrote:

> Note that we do get takeoff and landings from ALL Flarm aircraft registered 
> on our site, regardless of whether they have a dittolog device installed.
> 

That is something I have always wanted to do - awesome. 
So would we have to pay 30euros per member if they don't have a ditto log? Or 
can we get away with just the ground station and lower prices? Specifically 
here I am wondering if you can use a ground station for private members with 
FLARM, and a ditto log for club gliders.

Mind you this doesn't really cover SAR, since you don't have logs when not at 
home. So we still need integrate SPOT.

I like the idea of having these as services (ignoring issues of privacy and 
security for the moment - there are solutions there later) - a service where I 
can ask if a plane has landed (e.g. ditto log - direct or flarm, XCSoar or 
other tracking); or if not, where they last were (XCSoar and other tracking if 
via GSM, or SPOT data if not).

Simple GET REST API with glider registrations would mean I could integrate data 
from multiples sources onto a single screen.

RE: Security - it is easy to have a service which requires authentication, and 
then have it so pilots can "opt in" to allow data to be give to that service, 
similar to how you would approve apps in Facebook.

Scott

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Mark Fisher]

Hi Laurie,

It may be of interest to the community that we have just partnered with
Butterfly to market Dittolog.

We are in the midst of finalizing development of a SAR system ourselves,
through connection of a Flarm receiver to the dittobase. We have also
implemented many very useful functions for a club.

I hope subscribers here dont mind me giving a quick description of what we
are up to with dittolog.


We have greatly restructured the cost of Dittolog. People found the
hardware costs prohibitive, even though a Dittolog device for an aircraft
was way less than Flarm , and it contained basically the same building
blocks.

There were also some who found the 50cents per flight to expensive.

Funnily enough, in Europe, they rather charge a levy per member per year.
Our new cost structure is roughly as follows

A dittolog  device is roughly Euro99 for an aircraft
A DittBase for your club house is now Euro299

We charge a flat fee of Euro29 per flying member.

Note that we do get takeoff and landings from ALL Flarm aircraft registered
on our site, regardless of whether they have a dittolog device installed.

Cheers
Mark




On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Scott Penrose  wrote:

> Yes we do that at gliding club victoria. It is quite easy to read the
> Public URL data and process the information.
>
> Buzz me off line if you want some code.
>
> My altimeter goal (should one day I actually have that elusive thing
> called time) is to integrate it as a service that adds to other services,
> so you can take the SPOT data from the public URLs and put it up on
> skylines - instead of maintaining our own maps -
> http://skylines.xcsoar.org/ - but making it plugins so we could have a
> simple CGI / HTMP Page that updates with just the “issues” (e.g. landed,
> not home, or Help pressed etc), up to and including custom Google Maps
> output (which is what we do at GCV).
>
> There is a 3rd way (SMS you mentioned, and Public URLs I mentioned) and
> that is via email. The email can also be automatically processed. Email and
> public URLs cost nothing - but don’t do constant tracking, so require
> someone press OK, or Help, or on the newer models - custom message.
>
> Scott
>
> On 5 Jun 2014, at 10:38 am, Laurie Hoffman  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> Have been thinking about our need for a programme that will give spot info
> primarily in the event of a need for SAR.
> Has anyone had success with something that offers real time data and that
> doesn't need sms which would become expensive with regular monitoring?
>
> *Regards*
>
> *Laurie Hoffman*
>
>
>
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>
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-- 
Mark Fisher
Managing Director
Swift Performance Equipment
Unit 2, 1472 Boundary Rd
Wacol 4076
Australia
Ph:   +61 7 3879 3005
Fax: +61 7 36076277
www.spe.com.au
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Scott Penrose]

Yes we do that at gliding club victoria. It is quite easy to read the Public 
URL data and process the information.

Buzz me off line if you want some code.

My altimeter goal (should one day I actually have that elusive thing called 
time) is to integrate it as a service that adds to other services, so you can 
take the SPOT data from the public URLs and put it up on skylines - instead of 
maintaining our own maps - http://skylines.xcsoar.org/ - but making it plugins 
so we could have a simple CGI / HTMP Page that updates with just the “issues” 
(e.g. landed, not home, or Help pressed etc), up to and including custom Google 
Maps output (which is what we do at GCV).

There is a 3rd way (SMS you mentioned, and Public URLs I mentioned) and that is 
via email. The email can also be automatically processed. Email and public URLs 
cost nothing - but don’t do constant tracking, so require someone press OK, or 
Help, or on the newer models - custom message.

Scott

On 5 Jun 2014, at 10:38 am, Laurie Hoffman  wrote:

> Hi All,
> Have been thinking about our need for a programme that will give spot info 
> primarily in the event of a need for SAR.
> Has anyone had success with something that offers real time data and that 
> doesn't need sms which would become expensive with regular monitoring?
>  
> Regards
> Laurie Hoffman
> 
> 
> 
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[Aus-soaring] Position Info

[Laurie Hoffman]

Hi All,
Have been thinking about our need for a programme that will give spot info 
primarily in the event of a need for SAR.

Has anyone had success with something that offers real time data and that 
doesn't need sms which would become expensive with regular monitoring?
 
Regards 
Laurie Hoffman___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Liability to public.

[Mike Borgelt]

Thanks, Matthew. Yours is by far the most sensible comment on the topic.

Aerobatics aren't done over  built up areas for 
good reason. I wonder how that risk compares with a large gaggle of gliders?


Mike




At 08:15 AM 4/06/2014, you wrote:

Turnpoints are usually over populated areas such as towns.
Turnpoints are naturally an area of higher 
collision risk because of converging headings.
Pilots tend to outland/get low near turnpoints 
because of tunnel vision or trying round the 
turnpoints efficiently in high wind.
Perhaps turnpoints shouldn't be over populated 
areas/landmarks in competitions in this age of GPS navigation?



On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Derek Ruddock 
<drudd...@iinet.net.au> wrote:


Lookout, lookout, lookout…

Â

From: 
aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] 
On Behalf Of Christopher McDonnell

Sent: Monday, 2 June 2014 6:52 PM
To: 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net

Subject: [Aus-soaring] Liability to public.

Â

http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/172564,Pilot-killed-in-glider-tournament

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