Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
Hi Mark, Option 2 sounds like the best option. Regards, John Hudson. -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Newton Sent: Wednesday, 20 August 2014 4:20 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website G'day. I've recently received email from the Bureau of Meteorology to say that the data feed they've historically provided to make http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos work will, in future, cost $1125 per annum. Or, more to the point: The data itself will continue to be free, but there's a $1125 per annum fee to be a registered user of it. I can get similar data at no cost from University of Wyoming's Upper Air Project. In my experience, the sounding data from there is delayed by an hour or so, because they get it from the BoM too, then process it before they make it available. I see a non-trivial number of HTTP server hits on my website, so I know people are still using the facility. But server hits don't tell me if they're getting value out of it. So: Is it still useful? My options, as I see them, are: 1. Pay BoM, 2. Refactor the code to fetch from UoW, and accept that it'll run a little bit late; or 3. Shut down the site. Currently leaning towards (2), but nobody is getting value out of it then (3) is clearly my path of least resistance. Thoughts, comments, requests? - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
How does the timing of the latest chart compare with simply getting it here? http://www.bom.gov.au/aviation/observations/aerological-diagrams/ Mike At 04:49 PM 20/08/2014, you wrote: G'day. I've recently received email from the Bureau of Meteorology to say that the data feed they've historically provided to make http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos work will, in future, cost $1125 per annum. Or, more to the point: The data itself will continue to be free, but there's a $1125 per annum fee to be a registered user of it. I can get similar data at no cost from University of Wyoming's Upper Air Project. In my experience, the sounding data from there is delayed by an hour or so, because they get it from the BoM too, then process it before they make it available. I see a non-trivial number of HTTP server hits on my website, so I know people are still using the facility. But server hits don't tell me if they're getting value out of it. So: Is it still useful? My options, as I see them, are: 1. Pay BoM, 2. Refactor the code to fetch from UoW, and accept that it'll run a little bit late; or 3. Shut down the site. Currently leaning towards (2), but nobody is getting value out of it then (3) is clearly my path of least resistance. Thoughts, comments, requests? - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
My experience over many years gliding at Cooma and Temora is: Summer met balloon flights in EDST from Wagga don't produce charts before 11:30 and by then most of the task setting and planning have been fixed and gliders are moving to the launch point. So the balloon flight is of limited use. During competitions the organisation often sends a powered aircraft aloft at 08:30 to get the data. For gliding at Cooma the data related to an often different atmosphere across the Great Divide. RASP is providing good predictive data and I have often used RASP temp traces, height of critical updraft strength, up to 24 hours ahead for planning and am amazed how good it is. Also the RASP associated with Cooma flying and wave prediction is similarly amazingly accurate although processing means the data is perhaps only 12 hours in front of expected takeoff. FYI as requested. Alan Wilson Canberra Sent from my iPad On 20 Aug 2014, at 17:47, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: How does the timing of the latest chart compare with simply getting it here? http://www.bom.gov.au/aviation/observations/aerological-diagrams/ Mike At 04:49 PM 20/08/2014, you wrote: G’day. I’ve recently received email from the Bureau of Meteorology to say that the data feed they’ve historically provided to make http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos work will, in future, cost $1125 per annum. Or, more to the point: The data itself will continue to be free, but there’s a $1125 per annum fee to be a registered user of it. I can get similar data at no cost from University of Wyoming’s Upper Air Project. In my experience, the sounding data from there is delayed by an hour or so, because they get it from the BoM too, then process it before they make it available. I see a non-trivial number of HTTP server hits on my website, so I know people are still using the facility. But server hits don’t tell me if they’re getting value out of it. So: Is it still useful? My options, as I see them, are: 1. Pay BoM, 2. Refactor the code to fetch from UoW, and accept that it’ll run a little bit late; or 3. Shut down the site. Currently leaning towards (2), but nobody is getting value out of it then (3) is clearly my path of least resistance. Thoughts, comments, requests? - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
About the same. - mark On 20 Aug 2014, at 17:47, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: How does the timing of the latest chart compare with simply getting it here? http://www.bom.gov.au/aviation/observations/aerological-diagrams/ Mike At 04:49 PM 20/08/2014, you wrote: G’day. I’ve recently received email from the Bureau of Meteorology to say that the data feed they’ve historically provided to make http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos work will, in future, cost $1125 per annum. Or, more to the point: The data itself will continue to be free, but there’s a $1125 per annum fee to be a registered user of it. I can get similar data at no cost from University of Wyoming’s Upper Air Project. In my experience, the sounding data from there is delayed by an hour or so, because they get it from the BoM too, then process it before they make it available. I see a non-trivial number of HTTP server hits on my website, so I know people are still using the facility. But server hits don’t tell me if they’re getting value out of it. So: Is it still useful? My options, as I see them, are: 1. Pay BoM, 2. Refactor the code to fetch from UoW, and accept that it’ll run a little bit late; or 3. Shut down the site. Currently leaning towards (2), but nobody is getting value out of it then (3) is clearly my path of least resistance. Thoughts, comments, requests? - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
Marl, Thanks for this work over the years. Although the service may be delayed I consider option 2 is the way to go. I use your data as a teaching aid as part of a gliding course run by a Darwin high school as well as at my gliding club. I find the display less cluttered than the BOM information and therefore less confusing for the students when introducing them to this type of forecasting tool. Reg Moore On 20 Aug 2014, at 4:19 pm, Mark Newton new...@atdot.dotat.org wrote: G’day. I’ve recently received email from the Bureau of Meteorology to say that the data feed they’ve historically provided to make http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos work will, in future, cost $1125 per annum. Or, more to the point: The data itself will continue to be free, but there’s a $1125 per annum fee to be a registered user of it. I can get similar data at no cost from University of Wyoming’s Upper Air Project. In my experience, the sounding data from there is delayed by an hour or so, because they get it from the BoM too, then process it before they make it available. I see a non-trivial number of HTTP server hits on my website, so I know people are still using the facility. But server hits don’t tell me if they’re getting value out of it. So: Is it still useful? My options, as I see them, are: 1. Pay BoM, 2. Refactor the code to fetch from UoW, and accept that it’ll run a little bit late; or 3. Shut down the site. Currently leaning towards (2), but nobody is getting value out of it then (3) is clearly my path of least resistance. Thoughts, comments, requests? - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
Useful - yes, but way down the list of sources I use. with over 250 hours and 20,000km x/c flying in the last 12 months, I've found XC Skies so reliable I've almost stopped looking at anything else. Most comps now don't seem to bother with flying a temp trace at all as the results have usually not been as reliable as the predictions ! The problem with measured soundings is that the information has a good chance of not being relevant, either due to distance or time resulting in the flight being in a different air mass. Matt On 20 Aug 2014, at 17:30 , john hudson hud...@senet.com.au wrote: Hi Mark, Option 2 sounds like the best option. Regards, John Hudson. -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Newton Sent: Wednesday, 20 August 2014 4:20 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website G'day. I've recently received email from the Bureau of Meteorology to say that the data feed they've historically provided to make http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos work will, in future, cost $1125 per annum. Or, more to the point: The data itself will continue to be free, but there's a $1125 per annum fee to be a registered user of it. I can get similar data at no cost from University of Wyoming's Upper Air Project. In my experience, the sounding data from there is delayed by an hour or so, because they get it from the BoM too, then process it before they make it available. I see a non-trivial number of HTTP server hits on my website, so I know people are still using the facility. But server hits don't tell me if they're getting value out of it. So: Is it still useful? My options, as I see them, are: 1. Pay BoM, 2. Refactor the code to fetch from UoW, and accept that it'll run a little bit late; or 3. Shut down the site. Currently leaning towards (2), but nobody is getting value out of it then (3) is clearly my path of least resistance. Thoughts, comments, requests? - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
There also aren't any moist adiabats on Mark's chart. Means you can't predict cloud tops. Use the BoM F160. It is a professional tool and is what it is for good reasons. Matt Gage is right too. The chart tells you what was happening at the time of the balloon flight. The airmass can always be modified by advection as well as the amount of heating during the day. If you fly at one place you can usually get a pretty good idea of what surface wind/time of year etc will produce a good soaring day even without the charts and models. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
The wind speed and direction are far easier to understand on the BoM chart. Whether it seems cluttered is just a function of how well you know the chart. Once you figure it out it is very easy to ignore the stuff you don't need. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
On Aug 21, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Matt Gage is right too. The chart tells you what was happening at the time of the balloon flight. It used to, but it doesn’t anymore. The chart is essentially an extract from the BoM’s global atmospheric model. The date of the chart doesn’t necessarily bear any resemblance to the date of the balloon (or, indeed, whether there’s a balloon at all) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
I check this sight every time before I go flying , So yes I find this web site valuable. -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Newton Sent: Wednesday, 20 August 2014 4:50 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website G'day. I've recently received email from the Bureau of Meteorology to say that the data feed they've historically provided to make http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos work will, in future, cost $1125 per annum. Or, more to the point: The data itself will continue to be free, but there's a $1125 per annum fee to be a registered user of it. I can get similar data at no cost from University of Wyoming's Upper Air Project. In my experience, the sounding data from there is delayed by an hour or so, because they get it from the BoM too, then process it before they make it available. I see a non-trivial number of HTTP server hits on my website, so I know people are still using the facility. But server hits don't tell me if they're getting value out of it. So: Is it still useful? My options, as I see them, are: 1. Pay BoM, 2. Refactor the code to fetch from UoW, and accept that it'll run a little bit late; or 3. Shut down the site. Currently leaning towards (2), but nobody is getting value out of it then (3) is clearly my path of least resistance. Thoughts, comments, requests? - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
The models need updating or initialising with real observations. According to the BoM in Brisbane, Brisbane at least still launches balloons for the Observations they publish. The bloke I spoke to thought this was also the case for the other stations on the aerological diagrams page. You can do all the modelling you like but weather models drift from reality over time. A few days is all it takes. Nowadays they at least still look like real weather charts. They didn't used to after a while. Hence the need to update with real data. Mike At 10:43 AM 21/08/2014, you wrote: On Aug 21, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Matt Gage is right too. The chart tells you what was happening at the time of the balloon flight. It used to, but it doesn't anymore. The chart is essentially an extract from the BoM's global atmospheric model. The date of the chart doesn't necessarily bear any resemblance to the date of the balloon (or, indeed, whether there's a balloon at all) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
Mark, I have had a look at the comments to date. There is no doubt that people are getting value from the information you put out in an easily digested format. As one correspondent pointed out, current availability timing of the output is an issue, but there is not much we can do about that! To further delay the output would be a pity, if it could be at all avoided. In the interest of just throwing ideas about for a possible alternate solution, here are two that would maintain the status quo: 1. Negotiate at the highest level (Director/Senior Policy Adviser), with the BoM to obtain an (ongoing), exemption from the registration fee, on the basis that you have historically provided a well supported service to the entire Australian gliding (in its various forms), community, and that you are prepared to continue this service. The BoM likes to see its services used. You may be aware that in the past they have provided (free of charge), senior forecasters and equipment to State and National Competitions. I would be somewhat surprised if you did not get at least a very sympathetic hearing. 2. Negotiate an annual grant to cover the fee - maybe even from the BoM itself! Keep up the good work. Regards, Gary -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Newton Sent: Wednesday, 20 August 2014 4:50 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website G'day. I've recently received email from the Bureau of Meteorology to say that the data feed they've historically provided to make http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos work will, in future, cost $1125 per annum. Or, more to the point: The data itself will continue to be free, but there's a $1125 per annum fee to be a registered user of it. I can get similar data at no cost from University of Wyoming's Upper Air Project. In my experience, the sounding data from there is delayed by an hour or so, because they get it from the BoM too, then process it before they make it available. I see a non-trivial number of HTTP server hits on my website, so I know people are still using the facility. But server hits don't tell me if they're getting value out of it. So: Is it still useful? My options, as I see them, are: 1. Pay BoM, 2. Refactor the code to fetch from UoW, and accept that it'll run a little bit late; or 3. Shut down the site. Currently leaning towards (2), but nobody is getting value out of it then (3) is clearly my path of least resistance. Thoughts, comments, requests? - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007/8066 - Release Date: 08/19/14 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
I made the existing arrangements with Brian Bose, then head of the Aviation Department BOM PERTH, for this information to be made accessible to Internode. Brian had his technical people talk with Internode and that was the end of my involvement. I do remember that this was not a free service at that time as it did not meet the criteria for the then published free data set like the historical free weather issued for fishermen or the media outlets to inform the public what their day might be like. This was at a time when BOM were directed to embrace the user pay philosophy. I think the reason being Weatherzone and the NZ BOM were otherwise likely to push our BOM out of the way with an arguably better service while using the Bureau's own data? I had earlier tried to argue why we as tax payers should have to wait for our time critical gliding information to come via the University of Wyoming whom pressumably got their data free from the Australian tax payer. I think Brian then managed to get us some time by piggy backing us to an existing client. I didn't want to know the details and perhaps Brian wouldn't have any recollection of this now;-) Regardless, I believe we got a good free service from BOM, a SA gliding enthusiest who wrote the original gliding friendly programme (sorry, forget your name but in the acknowledgements on the Internode site) and of course Internode for setting all this up to sound the BOM every few minutes to get the latest data, massage that data so we might understand it and then make it available free. A truly collaborative effort. I don't know where we can reasonably expect to go from here given this history. Kind regards, Daryl On 20 Aug 2014 15:48, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: How does the timing of the latest chart compare with simply getting it here? http://www.bom.gov.au/aviation/observations/aerological-diagrams/ Mike At 04:49 PM 20/08/2014, you wrote: G’day. I’ve recently received email from the Bureau of Meteorology to say that the data feed they’ve historically provided to make http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos work will, in future, cost $1125 per annum. Or, more to the point: The data itself will continue to be free, but there’s a $1125 per annum fee to be a registered user of it. I can get similar data at no cost from University of Wyoming’s Upper Air Project. In my experience, the sounding data from there is delayed by an hour or so, because they get it from the BoM too, then process it before they make it available. I see a non-trivial number of HTTP server hits on my website, so I know people are still using the facility. But server hits don’t tell me if they’re getting value out of it. So: Is it still useful? My options, as I see them, are: 1. Pay BoM, 2. Refactor the code to fetch from UoW, and accept that it’ll run a little bit late; or 3. Shut down the site. Currently leaning towards (2), but nobody is getting value out of it then (3) is clearly my path of least resistance. Thoughts, comments, requests? - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring *Borgelt Instruments* - *design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 * www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] BoM data feed to Australian Atmospheric Soundings website
On Aug 21, 2014, at 12:21 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: The models need updating or initialising with real observations. According to the BoM in Brisbane, Brisbane at least still launches balloons for the Observations they publish. The bloke I spoke to thought this was also the case for the other stations on the aerological diagrams page. You can do all the modelling you like but weather models drift from reality over time. A few days is all it takes. Nowadays they at least still look like real weather charts. They didn't used to after a while. Hence the need to update with real data. BoM runs a continuous simulation of the global atmosphere which is continuously refreshed with observational data. Some of the observational data does indeed come from balloons, but there is also plenty from other sources, such as instrument packs carried on airliners, radar systems, data obtained from other national weather services, and so on. All of the F160 plots are outputs of the simulation model - i.e., they’re not produced from raw observational data, they’re slices at a point in time produced by the simulation. Some of the sites which used to launch balloons are no longer manned and hence no longer have regular balloon flights, but F160 diagrams are still produced by the simulation model because it simulates the entire atmosphere, not just the bits of air above manned weather stations. - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
