[Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Vincenzo Ciancia 

Il 07/07/2009 15:07, Praveen ha scritto:

no please don't do such a thing. it takes away a lot of benefits of the
new messaging system. ie i can from the notification know what the other
person has to say and hence decide if i want to open the chat window now
or later.

Also if the messages shouldn't come then one should
set the do-not-disturb mode.



You are right. The problem I was trying to address is that people will 
forget to set the "presentation" state before switching to full screen, 
not deciding which notifications may be embrassing or which applications 
are likely to be presentations.


So let's try to solve that problem. A possibility is to issue a 
notification when an application goes full-screen, saying "notifications 
will be displayed, switch to presentation mode to suppress them".






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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Vincenzo Ciancia 

Il 07/07/2009 15:19, Praveen ha scritto:

hmm.. not a bad idea though one must consider that this one initial
notification will be always displayed whenever one goes fullscreen. so
if i watch a lot of movies or am review/editing a presentation i would
be going to fullscreen and back so many many times that each time if  i
get this notification i would be annoyed


Praveen: did you also reply to the list? It does not look like to me but 
I just changed my mail client so who knows.


Yes perhaps once per session per opened application (based on pid? 
window id?) would be sufficient. Nothing is perfect anyway, we have 
testing precisely for this.


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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Sohail Mirza 
Isn't this whole discussion of a presentation mode making the issue more
complex than it needs to be?

I would think that taking an application into full-screen allows us to
safely assume the user is making the following statement:  "this application
is the only thing I'm interested in right now".  It follows from this that
non-critical notifications should be suppressed while viewing a full-screen
application.

The user already *has* a way of viewing an application window in
close-to-fullscreen size, and that is by maximizing the window (as opposed
to full-screening it).  Maximizing the window can be analogous to the
following statement:  "I'm only interested in this application, but am still
interested in peripheral information".  In this case I think it would be
appropriate to display all notifications.

What *does* need addressing is the use-case whereby a user wishes to
suppress notifications under conditions outside of full-screening an
application.

I hope I'm not missing anything in my analysis.  Is there a use-case of a
full-screen application that does not offer window maximization as an
alternative?

As for the issue of missed notifications, I thought it was early-on decided
that notifications were transient by nature?  Seeing as how one cannot take
direct action on a notification, they seem to be generally used as
informational messages that the user can do without, with the exception of
what have been referred to as "critical notifications" (i.e. "your battery
is nearly empty", "the end is nigh", etc.).  Notifications
*requiring*action should be handled differently, shouldn't they?  This
means that
non-critical notifications can be safely ignored.

I hope my input has been helpful.

Thanks,

Sohail Mirza


On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote:

> Il 07/07/2009 15:07, Praveen ha scritto:
>
>> no please don't do such a thing. it takes away a lot of benefits of the
>> new messaging system. ie i can from the notification know what the other
>> person has to say and hence decide if i want to open the chat window now
>> or later.
>>
>> Also if the messages shouldn't come then one should
>> set the do-not-disturb mode.
>>
>>
> You are right. The problem I was trying to address is that people will
> forget to set the "presentation" state before switching to full screen, not
> deciding which notifications may be embrassing or which applications are
> likely to be presentations.
>
> So let's try to solve that problem. A possibility is to issue a
> notification when an application goes full-screen, saying "notifications
> will be displayed, switch to presentation mode to suppress them".
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Alex Launi 
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Sohail Mirza  wrote:

> I would think that taking an application into full-screen allows us to
> safely assume the user is making the following statement:  "this application
> is the only thing I'm interested in right now".  It follows from this that
> non-critical notifications should be suppressed while viewing a full-screen
> application.


Definitely not. I put firefox, and monodevelop into full screen all the
time, not because I'm super focused on reading the latest posting of
cuteoverload, but because I want the little bit of extra screen real estate.
I know many people who do this. Full screen is not a proper heuristic for
"is busy", as nice as it would be if it were.


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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Vincenzo Ciancia 

Il 07/07/2009 15:29, Sohail Mirza ha scritto:


I hope I'm not missing anything in my analysis.  Is there a use-case of
a full-screen application that does not offer window maximization as an
alternative?


We talked about movies. I may be just watching a movie alone and want to 
be available for chat. But I want the movie fullscreen. Among other 
reasons consider that compiz can be disabled for fullscreen applications 
and those who need it will not be happy to watch movies in a maximised 
window.


Vincenzo

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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Vincenzo Ciancia 

Il 07/07/2009 15:35, Alex Launi ha scritto:

I know many people who do this.


Netbook users do this all the time.

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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Sohail Mirza 
First off, netbooks are not a fair use-case for this discussion.  The
limitations of the form-factor may require entirely a different solution to
common problems.  This much is apparent when comparing Ubuntu Desktop to
Ubuntu Netbook Remix.

Now, if you're watching a full-screen movie *and* waiting for an important
notification, then I would think watching that movie full-screen isn't your
best option.  Remember, these are transient notifications... there's no
guarantee you'll notice it anyways.  If, for example, IM is your priority
then you'll likely want your contact list or the Pidgin tray icon showing
anyways.  Same goes for full-screen Firefox or monodevelop.  Are you waiting
for a notification, or busy working with an application?  I admit, I'm
proposing a trade-off between screen real-estate and the importance of a
non-critical, transient notification.

In general, I realize that for *some* people, full-screening the application
is not a fair "I'm busy" indicator, but for the wider user population I
believe this does hold true.  Remember, the notifications we're referring to
are transient, non-critical, peripheral information bits that the user
can *easily
miss anyways*.  They shouldn't represent a central part of the user's
workflow.  If they are central to a user's workflow then notify-osd isn't
the right solution.

We also have to weigh all this against the proposed alternative of
additional configuration or a "presentation mode", and the pitfalls of that
solution.  Users could forget to set presentation mode, miss the
notification that reminds them to do so, forget to come out of presentation
mode.  I think there are just too many ways for the wider population of
users to misconfigure that system.  Just consider the case where one is in a
hurry to setup for a presentation that is already starting late.  Will they
really remember to set presentation mode?  If they glance away from the
screen they might miss the reminder notification too.

For these reasons I think "full-screen = I'm busy" is a reasonable
assumption.


On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote:

> Il 07/07/2009 15:35, Alex Launi ha scritto:
>
>> I know many people who do this.
>>
>
> Netbook users do this all the time.
>



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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Alex Launi 
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Sohail Mirza  wrote:

> First off, netbooks are not a fair use-case for this discussion.  The
> limitations of the form-factor may require entirely a different solution to
> common problems.  This much is apparent when comparing Ubuntu Desktop to
> Ubuntu Netbook Remix.



Don't think this is true. I see many presentations give on netbooks. Because
they're so portable they lend themselves to this, and with so many great
presentation apps being in the cloud, it's even easier.



> Now, if you're watching a full-screen movie *and* waiting for an important
> notification, then I would think watching that movie full-screen isn't your
> best option.  Remember, these are transient notifications... there's no
> guarantee you'll notice it anyways.  If, for example, IM is your priority
> then you'll likely want your contact list or the Pidgin tray icon showing
> anyways.  Same goes for full-screen Firefox or monodevelop.  Are you waiting
> for a notification, or busy working with an application?  I admit, I'm
> proposing a trade-off between screen real-estate and the importance of a
> non-critical, transient notification.



No ones *waiting* for a notification, we're doing stuff, and don't want our
notifications turned off. If none come, or we miss them, so be it, but we
certainly want the opportunity.



> In general, I realize that for *some* people, full-screening the
> application is not a fair "I'm busy" indicator, but for the wider user
> population I believe this does hold true.  Remember, the notifications we're
> referring to are transient, non-critical, peripheral information bits that
> the user can *easily miss anyways*.  They shouldn't represent a central
> part of the user's workflow.  If they are central to a user's workflow then
> notify-osd isn't the right solution.



Transient, but not absolutely worthless. If it's worthless, then it
shouldn't be sent in the first place. This assertion is also based on the
idea that netbooks are a different case, which I dont think is the case for
presentations. Maybe for movies and text editors, but I'm not really sure.



> We also have to weigh all this against the proposed alternative of
> additional configuration or a "presentation mode", and the pitfalls of that
> solution.  Users could forget to set presentation mode, miss the
> notification that reminds them to do so, forget to come out of presentation
> mode.  I think there are just too many ways for the wider population of
> users to misconfigure that system.  Just consider the case where one is in a
> hurry to setup for a presentation that is already starting late.  Will they
> really remember to set presentation mode?  If they glance away from the
> screen they might miss the reminder notification too.


This seems like something that should be a dialog, not a notification.


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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Sohail Mirza 
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Alex Launi  wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Sohail Mirza  wrote:
>
>> First off, netbooks are not a fair use-case for this discussion.  The
>> limitations of the form-factor may require entirely a different solution to
>> common problems.  This much is apparent when comparing Ubuntu Desktop to
>> Ubuntu Netbook Remix.
>
>
>
> Don't think this is true. I see many presentations give on netbooks.
> Because they're so portable they lend themselves to this, and with so many
> great presentation apps being in the cloud, it's even easier.
>

I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting that presentations are not given on
netbooks.  Rather, I'm suggesting that due to the limitations of the
form-factor (mainly screen real-estate) notifications may need to be
handled/suppressed differently.


> Now, if you're watching a full-screen movie *and* waiting for an important
>> notification, then I would think watching that movie full-screen isn't your
>> best option.  Remember, these are transient notifications... there's no
>> guarantee you'll notice it anyways.  If, for example, IM is your priority
>> then you'll likely want your contact list or the Pidgin tray icon showing
>> anyways.  Same goes for full-screen Firefox or monodevelop.  Are you waiting
>> for a notification, or busy working with an application?  I admit, I'm
>> proposing a trade-off between screen real-estate and the importance of a
>> non-critical, transient notification.
>
>
>
> No ones *waiting* for a notification, we're doing stuff, and don't want
> our notifications turned off. If none come, or we miss them, so be it, but
> we certainly want the opportunity.
>

Weighed against the configuration set and dialogues being proposing, I still
think that "full-screen = I'm busy" is a reasonable assumption to make with
the vast majority of the user population.  I would venture a guess that most
users don't even use, let alone understand how to, full-screen non-media
applications like Firefox or monodevelop.


>
>> In general, I realize that for *some* people, full-screening the
>> application is not a fair "I'm busy" indicator, but for the wider user
>> population I believe this does hold true.  Remember, the notifications we're
>> referring to are transient, non-critical, peripheral information bits that
>> the user can *easily miss anyways*.  They shouldn't represent a central
>> part of the user's workflow.  If they are central to a user's workflow then
>> notify-osd isn't the right solution.
>
>
>
> Transient, but not absolutely worthless. If it's worthless, then it
> shouldn't be sent in the first place. This assertion is also based on the
> idea that netbooks are a different case, which I dont think is the case for
> presentations. Maybe for movies and text editors, but I'm not really sure.
>

It's not just about the messages being transient and non-critical, but
rather about them being so in combination with the decision to full-screen
an application, which is certainly a statement of some enhanced importance
being given to the full-screen application.


>
>
>> We also have to weigh all this against the proposed alternative of
>> additional configuration or a "presentation mode", and the pitfalls of that
>> solution.  Users could forget to set presentation mode, miss the
>> notification that reminds them to do so, forget to come out of presentation
>> mode.  I think there are just too many ways for the wider population of
>> users to misconfigure that system.  Just consider the case where one is in a
>> hurry to setup for a presentation that is already starting late.  Will they
>> really remember to set presentation mode?  If they glance away from the
>> screen they might miss the reminder notification too.
>
>
> This seems like something that should be a dialog, not a notification.
>

A dialog while in a rush, with perhaps your audience sitting right there may
not be well received by the user population.  :)  And then there's the
difficulty of determining when to show this dialogue.  Only for
presentations?  How about movies?  Full-screen Firefox (I've done this for a
presentation)?  This is not even to speak of the UX (in)correctness of
pop-up dialogues.

Overall, I think the assumption "full-screen = I'm busy" holds true for most
users, in most circumstances, and should be weighed against the difficulty
of designing a set of configurations/dialogues that give more granular,
per-application control, and making these dialogues easily understood by the
common user.

I also think the "full-screen = I'm busy" assumption could be balanced by
way of a general system-level availability indicator (which I'm starting to
think should be your IM status).  Thus, if one has their IM availability set
to "busy/dnd", then all non-critical notifications would be suppressed.
Perhaps there are other ways of using the system-level status indicators to
enable the configurability that you'd prefer while retaining default
assumptions that ho

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Vincenzo Ciancia 

Il 07/07/2009 16:39, Sohail Mirza ha scritto:

The limitations of the form-factor may require entirely a different
solution to common problems.  This much is apparent when comparing
Ubuntu Desktop to Ubuntu Netbook Remix.


The EEEPC 1000HE has a 10'' screen on which the default gnome desktop is 
reasonable, my girlfriend has one. But certainly when one is just 
browsing, sending the browser to full screen is more comfortable. In 
general full screen may be more efficient, because compiz can be 
disabled. And also I hate anything but the black borders when I am 
watching a movie. The panels are out of question :)


Vincenzo


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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Vincenzo Ciancia 

Il 07/07/2009 17:34, Sohail Mirza ha scritto:


Weighed against the configuration set and dialogues being proposing, I
still think that "full-screen = I'm busy" is a reasonable assumption to
make with the vast majority of the user population.  I would venture a
guess that most users don't even use, let alone understand how to,
full-screen non-media applications like Firefox or monodevelop.


Come on, forget about presentations, my mother does not do that. The 
other two full-screen apps are firefox (press F11, and I learned that 
from non-nerds) and the movie player. Plus flash which probably uses its 
own method. Just let us concentrate on movies. Do you agree that when 
you watch a movie you may be willing to be interrupted or not for 
reasons that no machine will understand at least with current 
technology? I mean: I have to wait for my colleague to contact me with a 
patch. I watch a movie in the meantime. I want to watch it fullscreen. 
This is no nerdy or special need. Just the fact that the two use cases 
(block notifications, and go full screen) are often  independent even if 
they look related. But I think there is already general agreement on this.


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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Alex Launi 
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote:

> Come on, forget about presentations, my mother does not do that.


Ok, except that the title of this thread has the word presentation.
Presentations are a VERY common use activity. Your mom might not, but mine
does- often- quite possibly daily.


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Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

2009-07-07 Thread Sohail Mirza 
To be quite honest, if the movie is any good, I will likely miss the
notification anyways... but that's just me!  :)

If I really wanted to watch something while waiting for a particular
notification, I would probably keep exiting full-screen to double-check my
email/IM manually (I could've missed the notification, or maybe I'm just
being antsy).  On the other hand, if it wasn't something I was waiting for,
but just mildly interested in catching, well... I would probably finish my
movie first.

I don't disagree that there might be the odd case where I'm watching a movie
and I wouldn't mind being interrupted by an IM.  In this case we should
think of a way to allow this, but without complex configuration or
additional dialogues.

One thing to bear in mind is that receiving an unwanted (non-critical)
notification is usually more detrimental than missing a wanted
notification.  I can cite two examples of this:  1)  Of course, when making
a presentation, it's an absolute no-no to have a dialogue or notification
pop-up in front.  2)  If I'm at work I generally do not want IM
notifications popping up at all in case a co-worker is strolling by and
glances at my screen.

The "fullscreen = i'm busy" assumption is one step towards eliminating
unwanted notifications.  The second step might be having notify-osd observe
an availability indicator of some sort, or just having a way of disabling
certain types of notifications.

To summarize, I think the mandate here is two-fold:  1)  To reduce the
occurrences of unwanted notifications rather than making sure every
notification is displayed.  2)  To accomplish this in a way that is
virtually zero-configuration.


On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote:

> Il 07/07/2009 17:34, Sohail Mirza ha scritto:
>
>>
>> Weighed against the configuration set and dialogues being proposing, I
>> still think that "full-screen = I'm busy" is a reasonable assumption to
>> make with the vast majority of the user population.  I would venture a
>> guess that most users don't even use, let alone understand how to,
>> full-screen non-media applications like Firefox or monodevelop.
>>
>
> Come on, forget about presentations, my mother does not do that. The other
> two full-screen apps are firefox (press F11, and I learned that from
> non-nerds) and the movie player. Plus flash which probably uses its own
> method. Just let us concentrate on movies. Do you agree that when you watch
> a movie you may be willing to be interrupted or not for reasons that no
> machine will understand at least with current technology? I mean: I have to
> wait for my colleague to contact me with a patch. I watch a movie in the
> meantime. I want to watch it fullscreen. This is no nerdy or special need.
> Just the fact that the two use cases (block notifications, and go full
> screen) are often  independent even if they look related. But I think there
> is already general agreement on this.
>



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