Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Hi Mitja On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 20:16, Mitja Pagon mitja.pa...@inueni.com wrote: Still I fail to see what actual problem(s) windicators are meant solve or in what way are they supposed to better UX. To me it seem like it's a solution in of search of a problem to solve. The initial note ( http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333 ) says: *But why limit indicators to the panel? Let’s make it possible for applications to use indicators themselves, for all the things that indicators are good at: * Conveying a particular state, such as whether or not the application is connected, * Providing a handle for the indicator menu, to modify that state* Also, as MPT pointed out a few times, these status menus are shortcuts. You're correct in that you ask again, what Windicators are actually there for, and i see your point: it is not yet obvious ;) I think the best way to look at it would be like this: Every ordinary Desktop application has at least one status it might be interested in conveying, either persistently or at least consistently. And to make that possible, it is easy to imagine window-lived indicator menus. Then, there'd even be the possibility of interacting with the state or manipulating it via the status menu contained in that indicator. I liked thoughts of collapsing the Windicators onto the system indicators when a Window is maximized, but considering the trend towards single document interfaces, i'd say Windicators could make a lot of sense especially on full screen Windows, if they were designed to appear Wingpanel-style and transparent above content. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
A sound windicator in Banshee seems like an edge case to me, because Banshee (a) already lives in the system sound indicator, and (b) usually runs in the background. A better starting point might be to consider something like a sound windicator in Totem, which doesn't normally have an entry in the system indicator. Here's the behaviour I would like to see: 1) window floating = application volume in window decoration 2) window maximized and focused = application volume in system sound menu (with some sort of cue that it's available) 3) any other case = application volume not available This way, window indicators are always available for the window that you are interacting with, while indicators for background windows don't get in your way. Applications like Banshee that are *designed* to run in the background can put their functionality in the system indicator directly. Connor On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Carl Simpson cwd.simp...@gmail.com wrote: Annoyingly, this somehow ended up in a completely different thread due to the horrors of human error. I'm reposting here. Sticking with the examples of Banshee and volume, for the sake of argument, we also recognise two sorts of window indicator: a) A window indicator that stands alone as functionality dedicated to a particular window. I call these “window-specific” window indicators. b) A window indicator which is a candidate for merger with system indicators under a “collapsing” indicator system, because they encapsulate system-relevant behaviours. I call these “system-relevant” window indicators. With the collapsing idea in place, things are like this: 1. Banshee is maximised. Volume controls (as system-relevant) for Banshee are collapsed into the appropriate system indicator. Window-specific window indicators for Banshee are present to the left of the system indicators. No separate window indicator for Banshee's volume is shown. 2. Banshee is not maximised. Volume controls for Banshee are in a window indicator, situated on Banshee's window decoration. Volume controls for Banshee in the system indicator are now not present. Other, window-relevant window indicators for Banshee are present on Banshee's window decoration as well. System-relevant and window-specific window indicators do not appear distinguishable at this stage. 3. Banshee is minimised. ?? (Banshee's volume cannot be changed?) My concern is that the functionality of changing the volume of Banshee moves about quite a bit. It does this in two ways: 1) It moves from place to place in the interface- namely between the panel and the window decoration of Banshee. 2) When in Banshee's window decoration it literally changes place on the screen. This will be true of all system-relevant window indicators. Is such a degree of movement of functionality acceptable? Something also needs to be said about the case of minimisation. Does the volume control for Banshee end up back in the system indicator, or does it simply become unavailable? Other window indicator functionality would become unavailable in the case of minimisation, and it might be argued that this is only natural and intuitive. However, we have two sorts of indicators (window-specific and system-relevant), and we have them for a reason- namely that some of them (system-relevant window indicators) encapsulate system-relevant behaviours. It is only natural for window-specific behaviours to disappear with the window with which they are associated. Without the window being at the forefront, its content does not affect us and the behaviours made available by its window-specific window indicators is not important to us. For that reason, having window-specific window indicators tied to window decorations seems uncontroversial. Should system-relevant behaviours, however, such as changing the volume of some sound that is playing, be tied to specific windows in this way? System-relevant behaviours (such as a playing sound) continue to affect us regardless of the position or status of the windows of the applications producing them. Do we really want users to be unable to change the volume of Banshee (or alter any other system-relevant thing for any application) when it is minimised? Putting the system-relevant window indicators for minimised applications back in the panel adds yet another occasion on which that functionality moves position. Looking at things as they are, I do not think that having window-indicators for system relevant behaviours is remotely wise. If a behaviour is best placed inside a system indicator, my opinion is that it stay there at all times at which it is available at all. In the context of the example at hand- Banshee's volume would be present in the system indicator when Banshee is running, and available nowhere else at any other time. ___ Mailing list:
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Still I fail to see what actual problem(s) windicators are meant solve or in what way are they supposed to better UX. To me it seem like it's a solution in of search of a problem to solve. Mitja - Original Message - From: Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com To: Mitja Pagon mitja.pa...@inueni.com Cc: he...@owaislone.org, ayatana@lists.launchpad.net, Carl Simpson cwd.simp...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 8:08:53 AM Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Windicators On 20/02/11 18:39, Mitja Pagon wrote: Using the example of volume control mentioned below, am I the only one who thinks windicators make little sense and are in fact bad UX. No, of course you are not the only person, there's lots of dissent, which is fine and stimulates discussion to get a better result. Follow my example. What is the added benefit of having the per-application volume control as windicator. Music players already have per application volume controls in their UIs and space gained by moving them into the window title is minimal. Are there any other benefits am missing? It would not make sense to have volume controls both inside the UI, and in the title bar as an indicator. But the suggestion of course was to let apps *move* that functionality to the indicator, not duplicate the functionality. Indicators are abstract, logical entities that are exported from the app. They can thus be useful in more general cases. For example, in the window spread views, indicators could be rendered at full size, so their semantic meaning can be scanned in the spread view. They could even be interactive in those views, allowing one to set the appropriate volume for multiple windows, quickly, in the volume example. On the other hand you are adding visual clutter to the title bar, introducing confusing behavior, as the same indicator is sometimes applications specific, other times it system wide, not to mention you are giving yourself additional technical problems to solve and thus requiring more resources. All of this are negative implications of this idea. Giving technical problems to solve is called challenging the engineers and we rather like to do that, and they rather like it too, round here ;-) As long as the work feels like it is foundational and will stick around for a long time and be used, solving hard problems is worthwhile. If you apply simple math to this you can conclude that he negatives of this idea outweigh the positives. There are some other use cases mentioned, but most of the same logic applies and as for using windicators for notifying users there is already notify-osd. Notify-OSD is purely for momentary events, not status. Indicators combine status and manipulation of the status, they are entirely different from notifications. Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
I think we should provide a standard collapsing approach for things which could be window indicators and which are commonly system indicators too, like volume. When maximised, the window indicator is embedded in the system indicator (so there's only one volume indicator, and in there you find what you probably expect to find). Needs cogent thinking, but I think it's doable. Mark On 04/01/11 20:06, Carl Simpson wrote: To clarify, I mean people tend to want that somewhere in the front-and-centre interface; I'm aware that it's there in gnome-volume-control. 2011/1/4 Carl Simpson cwd.simp...@gmail.com mailto:cwd.simp...@gmail.com 2011/1/4 Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com mailto:m...@ubuntu.com When maximised, they go into the panel, on the right, left of any app-indicators. Can we can assume from this that per-application functions, such as volume control and network status, wont be tenable uses of the windicator idea, since this would result in duplicates (e.g., two volume controls) or confusingly similar items in the panel when applications are maximised? If that is the case, then as a side note: I get the sense that per-application volume control is something that people generally think that they want- is there any plan for that sort of thing? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Using the example of volume control mentioned below, am I the only one who thinks windicators make little sense and are in fact bad UX. Follow my example. What is the added benefit of having the per-application volume control as windicator. Music players already have per application volume controls in their UIs and space gained by moving them into the window title is minimal. Are there any other benefits am missing? On the other hand you are adding visual clutter to the title bar, introducing confusing behavior, as the same indicator is sometimes applications specific, other times it system wide, not to mention you are giving yourself additional technical problems to solve and thus requiring more resources. All of this are negative implications of this idea. If you apply simple math to this you can conclude that he negatives of this idea outweigh the positives. There are some other use cases mentioned, but most of the same logic applies and as for using windicators for notifying users there is already notify-osd. Cheers, Mitja - Original Message - From: Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com To: Carl Simpson cwd.simp...@gmail.com Cc: he...@owaislone.org, ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 4:57:59 PM Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Windicators I think we should provide a standard collapsing approach for things which could be window indicators and which are commonly system indicators too, like volume. When maximised, the window indicator is embedded in the system indicator (so there's only one volume indicator, and in there you find what you probably expect to find). Needs cogent thinking, but I think it's doable. Mark On 04/01/11 20:06, Carl Simpson wrote: To clarify, I mean people tend to want that somewhere in the front-and-centre interface; I'm aware that it's there in gnome-volume-control. 2011/1/4 Carl Simpson cwd.simp...@gmail.com 2011/1/4 Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com When maximised, they go into the panel, on the right, left of any app-indicators. Can we can assume from this that per-application functions, such as volume control and network status, wont be tenable uses of the windicator idea, since this would result in duplicates (e.g., two volume controls) or confusingly similar items in the panel when applications are maximised? If that is the case, then as a side note: I get the sense that per-application volume control is something that people generally think that they want- is there any plan for that sort of thing? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Annoyingly, this somehow ended up in a completely different thread due to the horrors of human error. I'm reposting here. Sticking with the examples of Banshee and volume, for the sake of argument, we also recognise two sorts of window indicator: a) A window indicator that stands alone as functionality dedicated to a particular window. I call these “window-specific” window indicators. b) A window indicator which is a candidate for merger with system indicators under a “collapsing” indicator system, because they encapsulate system-relevant behaviours. I call these “system-relevant” window indicators. With the collapsing idea in place, things are like this: 1. Banshee is maximised. Volume controls (as system-relevant) for Banshee are collapsed into the appropriate system indicator. Window-specific window indicators for Banshee are present to the left of the system indicators. No separate window indicator for Banshee's volume is shown. 2. Banshee is not maximised. Volume controls for Banshee are in a window indicator, situated on Banshee's window decoration. Volume controls for Banshee in the system indicator are now not present. Other, window-relevant window indicators for Banshee are present on Banshee's window decoration as well. System-relevant and window-specific window indicators do not appear distinguishable at this stage. 3. Banshee is minimised. ?? (Banshee's volume cannot be changed?) My concern is that the functionality of changing the volume of Banshee moves about quite a bit. It does this in two ways: 1) It moves from place to place in the interface- namely between the panel and the window decoration of Banshee. 2) When in Banshee's window decoration it literally changes place on the screen. This will be true of all system-relevant window indicators. Is such a degree of movement of functionality acceptable? Something also needs to be said about the case of minimisation. Does the volume control for Banshee end up back in the system indicator, or does it simply become unavailable? Other window indicator functionality would become unavailable in the case of minimisation, and it might be argued that this is only natural and intuitive. However, we have two sorts of indicators (window-specific and system-relevant), and we have them for a reason- namely that some of them (system-relevant window indicators) encapsulate system-relevant behaviours. It is only natural for window-specific behaviours to disappear with the window with which they are associated. Without the window being at the forefront, its content does not affect us and the behaviours made available by its window-specific window indicators is not important to us. For that reason, having window-specific window indicators tied to window decorations seems uncontroversial. Should system-relevant behaviours, however, such as changing the volume of some sound that is playing, be tied to specific windows in this way? System-relevant behaviours (such as a playing sound) continue to affect us regardless of the position or status of the windows of the applications producing them. Do we really want users to be unable to change the volume of Banshee (or alter any other system-relevant thing for any application) when it is minimised? Putting the system-relevant window indicators for minimised applications back in the panel adds yet another occasion on which that functionality moves position. Looking at things as they are, I do not think that having window-indicators for system relevant behaviours is remotely wise. If a behaviour is best placed inside a system indicator, my opinion is that it stay there at all times at which it is available at all. In the context of the example at hand- Banshee's volume would be present in the system indicator when Banshee is running, and available nowhere else at any other time. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Carl Simpson cwd.simp...@gmail.comwrote: My concern is that the functionality of changing the volume of Banshee moves about quite a bit. It does this in two ways: 1) It moves from place to place in the interface- namely between the panel and the window decoration of Banshee. 2) When in Banshee's window decoration it literally changes place on the screen. This will be true of all system-relevant window indicators. Is such a degree of movement of functionality acceptable? +1, this is too much movement and confusion - users should always find what they want where they look. Therefore, having the presence of a window volume control in the sound menu depend on external factors is a design mistake - out of habit, the user will look there, only to find that it's not there. What I suggest is to have system-related windicators always be present in the panel, and only have a duplicate shown in the window border if it's not maximized. Although this does duplicate functionality, I feel that the problem this causes are less than the problem caused by the moving of functionality. Now that I think about it, I see little need for windicators - they offer little benefits, and pose many design problems. :/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 20/02/11 18:39, Mitja Pagon wrote: Using the example of volume control mentioned below, am I the only one who thinks windicators make little sense and are in fact bad UX. No, of course you are not the only person, there's lots of dissent, which is fine and stimulates discussion to get a better result. Follow my example. What is the added benefit of having the per-application volume control as windicator. Music players already have per application volume controls in their UIs and space gained by moving them into the window title is minimal. Are there any other benefits am missing? It would not make sense to have volume controls both inside the UI, and in the title bar as an indicator. But the suggestion of course was to let apps *move* that functionality to the indicator, not duplicate the functionality. Indicators are abstract, logical entities that are exported from the app. They can thus be useful in more general cases. For example, in the window spread views, indicators could be rendered at full size, so their semantic meaning can be scanned in the spread view. They could even be interactive in those views, allowing one to set the appropriate volume for multiple windows, quickly, in the volume example. On the other hand you are adding visual clutter to the title bar, introducing confusing behavior, as the same indicator is sometimes applications specific, other times it system wide, not to mention you are giving yourself additional technical problems to solve and thus requiring more resources. All of this are negative implications of this idea. Giving technical problems to solve is called challenging the engineers and we rather like to do that, and they rather like it too, round here ;-) As long as the work feels like it is foundational and will stick around for a long time and be used, solving hard problems is worthwhile. If you apply simple math to this you can conclude that he negatives of this idea outweigh the positives. There are some other use cases mentioned, but most of the same logic applies and as for using windicators for notifying users there is already notify-osd. Notify-OSD is purely for momentary events, not status. Indicators combine status and manipulation of the status, they are entirely different from notifications. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
2011/1/4 Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com When maximised, they go into the panel, on the right, left of any app-indicators. Can we can assume from this that per-application functions, such as volume control and network status, wont be tenable uses of the windicator idea, since this would result in duplicates (e.g., two volume controls) or confusingly similar items in the panel when applications are maximised? If that is the case, then as a side note: I get the sense that per-application volume control is something that people generally think that they want- is there any plan for that sort of thing? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
To clarify, I mean people tend to want that somewhere in the front-and-centre interface; I'm aware that it's there in gnome-volume-control. 2011/1/4 Carl Simpson cwd.simp...@gmail.com 2011/1/4 Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com When maximised, they go into the panel, on the right, left of any app-indicators. Can we can assume from this that per-application functions, such as volume control and network status, wont be tenable uses of the windicator idea, since this would result in duplicates (e.g., two volume controls) or confusingly similar items in the panel when applications are maximised? If that is the case, then as a side note: I get the sense that per-application volume control is something that people generally think that they want- is there any plan for that sort of thing? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Carl Simpson cwd.simp...@gmail.com wrote: Can we can assume from this that per-application functions, such as volume control and network status, wont be tenable uses of the windicator idea, since this would result in duplicates (e.g., two volume controls) or confusingly similar items in the panel when applications are maximised? I also raised this concern in an old post. Since these kinds of functions are basically the essence of windicators (I may be wrong), we need to solve this problem before they are implemented. Basically, what I suggested is to have basic categories for windicators, such as volume, network, progress, etc. Each category would have a corresponding panel indicator for it. This panel indicator would show the status of all windows using that indicator. For volume windicators, the sound menu would be the panel counterpart. Therefore, each window (unmaximized) would show its volume in a windicator, and the sound menu would show the volumes of all the windows. Therefore, by removing windicators on maximization, no functionality is lost. This set up also allows a user to see an overview of what's going on with applications - What processes are going on - with which programs? What is playing that sound behind my youtube video? etc. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 10/12/10 06:52, Shane Fagan wrote: On Fri, 2010-12-10 at 12:04 +0530, Owais Lone wrote: Just wanted to check. Are Windicators targeted for Natty? How much work has been done? What if I wanted to play with it a little? No there was no talk about anything unless canonical have it going on it. I'd love to see it done, but it's not critical to getting Unity out there which is our mission for 11.04. So if you're interested: - look at the AppIndicator protocol / API's - chat with Mikkel on IRC, or Ted Gould, depending on your timezones - sketch out an API which essentially generalises AppIndicator, so an app can publish multiple window indicators on the dbus, each window indicator behaving just like an AppIndicator: it's an icon (which can change) and a menu (which can change) - we can arrange to patch Compiz to put the windicators in the window title bar or panel Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Hey Mark, On the design of the windicators, how exactly do they fit? Im not really getting a good image in my head about how they will be fitting in since the area that they were supposed to be put into is going to be removed for maximized windows. --fagan On Tue, 2011-01-04 at 00:41 +, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: On 10/12/10 06:52, Shane Fagan wrote: On Fri, 2010-12-10 at 12:04 +0530, Owais Lone wrote: Just wanted to check. Are Windicators targeted for Natty? How much work has been done? What if I wanted to play with it a little? No there was no talk about anything unless canonical have it going on it. I'd love to see it done, but it's not critical to getting Unity out there which is our mission for 11.04. So if you're interested: - look at the AppIndicator protocol / API's - chat with Mikkel on IRC, or Ted Gould, depending on your timezones - sketch out an API which essentially generalises AppIndicator, so an app can publish multiple window indicators on the dbus, each window indicator behaving just like an AppIndicator: it's an icon (which can change) and a menu (which can change) - we can arrange to patch Compiz to put the windicators in the window title bar or panel Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 04/01/11 02:44, Shane Fagan wrote: On the design of the windicators, how exactly do they fit? Im not really getting a good image in my head about how they will be fitting in since the area that they were supposed to be put into is going to be removed for maximized windows. When maximised, they go into the panel, on the right, left of any app-indicators. [U OOO Application Name or Menu W W W A A A S S S S ] Where: - U = Ubuntu button - O = Window controls - W = Windicators for the maximised window - A = App indicators - S = System indicators Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 30/06/10 14:15, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: I agree that the F-Spot example isn't status; I couldn't think of anything appropriate for that. :-) Does F-Spot not have an online / offline mode yet? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 18 June 2010 17:12, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: On 18/06/10 15:00, Sam Spilsbury wrote: What happens if applications have more than 4 or 5 indicators? We'll have to think about that :-) Suggestions? Show the ones that most recently changed status? I like how the Unity launcher solves the problem of many icons on a limited space. Maybe the same accordion contracted view could work here? The accordion could expand to show the most recently updated windicator. This way, you wouldn't need to hide older icons, and all windicators could be alway shown in the same order (which is important for recognition). On 23 June 2010 14:59, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: On 18/06/10 19:42, Sam Spilsbury wrote: In that case, I'd say scale them down accordingly. They'd be tiny, and not very easy to interact with scaled down. It's a neat idea, but I think violating the scaling is actually useful in this case. You can call it semantic zooming instead of that ugly v word. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 24 June 2010 00:28, Apoorva Sharma appi2...@gmail.com wrote: To get around these problems, I have come up with the following idea. ... If this is implemented, then all the windicators could have copies of them already in the panel. For example, not only would rhythmbox have a volume indicator on the window, its volume would be added to the sound menu, which would display the system sound as well as application specific sound. Thus, users could see what the status of individual, unmaximized windows is by just looking at the window, without having to go to the panel, but if the window takes up the whole screen (maximized) then going to the panel is pretty much the same thing, so there would be no need for two areas of indication. I think you've just described the rationale for the new Ubuntu panel menus (Sound-, Network-, Me-menus). So what you're suggesting would be akin to dismiss the windicator idea and have all windows notifications centralized in standardized panel menus? I like your suggested status categories for standard windicators: * Online status (Online, Offline, Connecting | Connect, Go offline) * Operation Progress (Working, perhaps showing a progressbar icon (ala battery icon) | a progressbar showing progress, cancel, pause/resume) * Volume (Volume level | Volume slider, Mute) * Security status (Secure, Insecure (locked/unlocked icons) | Lock, Unlock) Maybe the windicators framework should include support for them, so that all applications that need these categories will behave in a consistent way. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Jul 7, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Diego Moya turi...@gmail.com wrote: I think you've just described the rationale for the new Ubuntu panel menus (Sound-, Network-, Me-menus). So what you're suggesting would be akin to dismiss the windicator idea and have all windows notifications centralized in standardized panel menus? I don't propose that we should completely ditch windicators, but I guess you could say that I propose that windows show statuses related to them in the titlebar, alongside the panel menu notifications. I think having windicators is a good idea, but they should be standardized, not used unnecessarily and inconsistently. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Conscious User wrote on 17/06/10 18:29: ... I don't know if you simply consider this too obvious, but I think there should be a guideline recommending that windicators should be always designed to be optional, in the sense that the application should not be broken if they did not exist. Let's not bring to the title bar the same historical abuse of the notification area. :) ... Good point. I've just added this. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators?action=diffrev2=20rev1=19 - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwrItsACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecomnwCgsAuIuc/bygQzyOSWowi2m/GX +JUAoKgIEkPLLG431SNJ2VHnOwHyriRh =BFyw -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Luke Benstead wrote on 17/06/10 20:20: On 17 June 2010 15:58, Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com mailto:m...@canonical.com wrote: ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators ... So... what's the status for the Gimp and F-spot mockups? Scale and tags don't seem to fit at all with the original Windicator idea. In fact the only one that seems to fit the status argument is the Firefox one, but you can't manipulate the status so it shouldn't be a Windicator ... The statuses for the Gimp examples are units of measurement and zoom level. I agree that the F-Spot example isn't status; I couldn't think of anything appropriate for that. :-) - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwrQ1wACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrxkwCeKkDp1oYcNhi+5ntO9sSm0125 p54AmwdSzNDmn3OgEenD2dg+A2hp46G3 =DTfy -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 18/06/10 19:42, Sam Spilsbury wrote: Do you need to interact with them during alt-tab? Remember that your screen is grabbed and you are busy finding windows, not tweaking them. I think, if we're going to expose them, we should enable them to be interactive in order to keep them faithful to the original and consistent. In that case, I'd say scale them down accordingly. Not only will this fit in better more visually, but it also makes a heck of a lot of sense when we get input redirection and can interact with those tiny widgets anyways* They'd be tiny, and not very easy to interact with scaled down. It's a neat idea, but I think violating the scaling is actually useful in this case. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 18/06/10 19:42, Sam Spilsbury wrote: Do you need to interact with them during alt-tab? Remember that your screen is grabbed and you are busy finding windows, not tweaking them. I think, if we're going to expose them, we should enable them to be interactive in order to keep them faithful to the original and consistent. In that case, I'd say scale them down accordingly. Not only will this fit in better more visually, but it also makes a heck of a lot of sense when we get input redirection and can interact with those tiny widgets anyways* They'd be tiny, and not very easy to interact with scaled down. It's a neat idea, but I think violating the scaling is actually useful in this case. Mark I have been running my own builds of X11 with input redirection for about a year now, since your display would become largely resolution independent anyways and you can just zoom in to get more precision on those little widgets. Kind Regards, Sam -- Sam Spilsbury ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Hi, NOTE: I tried to post this earlier, but I might not have been properly subscribed, so this may or may not be a duplicate. -- Sorry, this is my first time using a launchpad mailing list. First of all, I really like the idea of window status indicators. It could be an extremely useful feature. I also like the idea about being able to see them in alt-tab. However, I would like to propose another location to put the windicators, that could also solve some problems that the idea currently had, IMO. I've heard that in unity, maximizing the window would add the windicators to the panel, thus saving space. However, this behavior could possibly lead to some negative consequences. The one I feel is most important is it would add clutter. Lucid made several strides in cleaning up the panel - standardizing the indicator behavior, and making the icons look similar. I feel that this progress could be reversed if all windicators moved up to the panel with maximization. One example of this problem would be the addition of a second volume indicator if rhythmbox was maximized. To get around these problems, I have come up with the following idea. Applications could implement some standardized windicator options for their windows. These could include: (This are listed in the fashion Windicator name (Statuses | Menu Options)) - Online status (Online, Offline, Connecting | Connect, Go offline) - Operation Progress (Working, perhaps showing a progressbar icon (ala battery icon) | a progressbar showing progress, cancel, pause/resume) - Volume (Volume level | Volume slider, Mute) - Security status (Secure, Insecure (locked/unlocked icons) | Lock, Unlock) - More (but these categories should be applicable to multiple applications) If this is implemented, then all the windicators could have copies of them already in the panel. For example, not only would rhythmbox have a volume indicator on the window, its volume would be added to the sound menu, which would display the system sound as well as application specific sound. Thus, users could see what the status of individual, unmaximized windows is by just looking at the window, without having to go to the panel, but if the window takes up the whole screen (maximized) then going to the panel is pretty much the same thing, so there would be no need for two areas of indication. Not only would this eliminate the need to move windicators to the panel when maximizing windows, this would provide a centralized view of window statuses in various areas. For example, if Bob wanted to check how his download was going, instead of trying to find the download window, he could simply look at the panel under the Operation Progress area, and see the download progress listed underneath it. This plan would significantly lower panel clutter as well as make the system more tightly integrated, because it would consolidate window statuses in panel applets. One downside to this plan is that it limits possibilities for windicators, but I feel that this is actually a good thing, because the user will know what to expect from the top corner of a window, and applications couldn't develop indicators which really aren't necessary to be indicated to the user, or that don't apply to the whole window. What do you think of this idea? Do you have any questions, comments? Once again, sorry if this a duplicate ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 18/06/10 15:00, Sam Spilsbury wrote: Yes, perhaps show them at 1:1 scale as emblems on the window previews, whatever the underlying window scale is for the reveal / alt-tab. Mark I would imagine with 24x24 icons you're going to have enough room for about 4 of them on each window thumbnail before they start running off and things get ugly fast. Even with 18x18, I'd say 5 is pushing it. I guess you could increase the size of the window thumbnail, but I don't see how that would fix much. What happens if applications have more than 4 or 5 indicators? We'll have to think about that :-) Suggestions? Show the ones that most recently changed status? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
We'll have to think about that :-) Suggestions? Show the ones that most recently changed status? I think that would introduce an unpredictability factor that a lot of users wouldn't like. Like it happens with the panel, I think we should consider that even without the space problem there is the simple fact that cluttering the indicator area diminishes its usefulness. I've always been a supporter of enforcing a limit on indicators, like the Windows 7 notification area does by throwing the excess icons in a popup (and allowing the user to choose which ones have priority), because trusting application developers to follow common sense simply does not work. For windicators the problem is even worse, so at the risk of someone calling me by the Godwin word, I'd support even flat out *forbidding* more than a certain number via library constraints, not only separating them to a popup. :) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 18 June 2010 16:25, Conscious User consciousu...@aol.com wrote: We'll have to think about that :-) Suggestions? Show the ones that most recently changed status? I think that would introduce an unpredictability factor that a lot of users wouldn't like. Like it happens with the panel, I think we should consider that even without the space problem there is the simple fact that cluttering the indicator area diminishes its usefulness. I've always been a supporter of enforcing a limit on indicators, like the Windows 7 notification area does by throwing the excess icons in a popup (and allowing the user to choose which ones have priority), because trusting application developers to follow common sense simply does not work. For windicators the problem is even worse, so at the risk of someone calling me by the Godwin word, I'd support even flat out *forbidding* more than a certain number via library constraints, not only separating them to a popup. :) Agreed. We think we should be careful to specify EXACTLY when a Windicator is suitable and restricting the number, otherwise we could end up with the notification area all over again... I think it might even be a good idea to come up with a preferable set of Windicators that apps can use (e.g. sound, save state, connection state, shared state). Luke. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Luke Benstead kaz...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 June 2010 16:25, Conscious User consciousu...@aol.com wrote: We'll have to think about that :-) Suggestions? Show the ones that most recently changed status? I think that would introduce an unpredictability factor that a lot of users wouldn't like. Like it happens with the panel, I think we should consider that even without the space problem there is the simple fact that cluttering the indicator area diminishes its usefulness. I've always been a supporter of enforcing a limit on indicators, like the Windows 7 notification area does by throwing the excess icons in a popup (and allowing the user to choose which ones have priority), because trusting application developers to follow common sense simply does not work. For windicators the problem is even worse, so at the risk of someone calling me by the Godwin word, I'd support even flat out *forbidding* more than a certain number via library constraints, not only separating them to a popup. :) Agreed. We think we should be careful to specify EXACTLY when a Windicator is suitable and restricting the number, otherwise we could end up with the notification area all over again... I think it might even be a good idea to come up with a preferable set of Windicators that apps can use (e.g. sound, save state, connection state, shared state). Luke. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp erm...Windicator Priorities? -- I am 13 year old and make a lot of typos. I am a non-native english speaker. I will never answer emails half-asleep again. I love Ubuntu. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
erm...Windicator Priorities? I personally prefer not having to choose when there's excess. I'm in favor of not allowing excess, period. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 6/18/10, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 18/06/10 15:00, Sam Spilsbury wrote: Yes, perhaps show them at 1:1 scale as emblems on the window previews, whatever the underlying window scale is for the reveal / alt-tab. Mark I would imagine with 24x24 icons you're going to have enough room for about 4 of them on each window thumbnail before they start running off and things get ugly fast. Even with 18x18, I'd say 5 is pushing it. I guess you could increase the size of the window thumbnail, but I don't see how that would fix much. What happens if applications have more than 4 or 5 indicators? We'll have to think about that :-) Suggestions? Show the ones that most recently changed status? Do you need to interact with them during alt-tab? Remember that your screen is grabbed and you are busy finding windows, not tweaking them. In that case, I'd say scale them down accordingly. Not only will this fit in better more visually, but it also makes a heck of a lot of sense when we get input redirection and can interact with those tiny widgets anyways* *I'm going to at least try to push for this in the next few weeks in upstream X11. -- Sam Spilsbury ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Roth Robert wrote on 03/05/10 13:22: ... Starting a new topic to discuss the suggestions, comments, ideas regarding the windicators http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333 Mark blogged about. ... With help from Ted Gould of the DX team, I have now (mostly) finished a specification for windicators, with a few examples. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwaOBYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecok+QCghzS3CvLCcIewxIUn5daW/fCU JjoAoLYH+9ZY/hQ9ZWQKWvp+czf6HLWZ =Jxi7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
With help from Ted Gould of the DX team, I have now (mostly) finished a specification for windicators, with a few examples. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators Nice work. I don't know if you simply consider this too obvious, but I think there should be a guideline recommending that windicators should be always designed to be optional, in the sense that the application should not be broken if they did not exist. Let's not bring to the title bar the same historical abuse of the notification area. :) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Window indicators, or windicators, are menus that appear at the trailing end of a window’s title bar, or in the panel when the window is maximized. Application developers can use windicators for reflecting status, and allowing change of status, for the item or items presented in the window. The menus should be implemented using DbusMenu. So far, these just seem to be menus, but with an optional icon instead of text. So I have to ask: Why don't these belong in the regular application menu bar? As a related question, since we'll be moving the menubar around anyways (into the panel for netbook distributions): Why not just pick up the entire menu bar and put it into the title bar? Especially if all the menu entries of optional icons anyways, these should be very usable there. If there's lots of menu entries (which there generally shouldn't be anyways), they can always be represented differently (with a '...' or 'down-arrow' entry that shows the rest of the menu entries, as is currently done for toolbars). You could show menu entries with icons (windicators) first, since they're probably the best thought through and most relevent. This would perhaps be the only scenario I could imagine CSD being really interesting... plus it gives us a natural fall-back when CSD isn't available in the window manager: just use the ordinary menu bar. -- Jeremy Nickurak -= Email/XMPP: jer...@nickurak.ca =- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
So far, these just seem to be menus, but with an optional icon instead of text. So I have to ask: Why don't these belong in the regular application menu bar? guess The windicators will also be able to use the icons to show status, like panel indicators do. /guess ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Roth Robert wrote on 03/05/10 13:22: ... Starting a new topic to discuss the suggestions, comments, ideas regarding the windicators http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333 Mark blogged about. ... With help from Ted Gould of the DX team, I have now (mostly) finished a specification for windicators, with a few examples. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators Oh, nice! Thanks for doing this. I am still confused about the exact scope of Windicators, though. “Controlling status” is a pretty broad term, given the many roles developers already give to status bars. As far as I can tell, in a decently designed interface, most controls are going to reflect their current status. For example the Status selector in Empathy, the Timeline / Object Properties in Blender 2.5, or the Font selector in any word processor. Should all of these controls be in the status bar, and now Windicators? Most of these mockups look like they would be equally relevant whether the windicator is shown on an actual window in the workspace, a minimized window or a shaded window. The Evolution windicator, for example, could be used with its main window in a shaded state in order to change the view mode, which would still do the right thing. That's a pretty cool thing, I think. A bit like Windows's Jump Lists, but specific to windows instead of applications. (And a quick note about Evolution: 2.30 has evolution-express. Try evolution --express from the command line. It's used in Meego and it is awesome). However, the mockups for F-Spot and The Gimp are different. Those only fit the presentation of whatever is being shown inside a window. I see no benefit in having the zoom and units controls in the window chrome. It is wrong to have them in the status bar (it would be okay if the thing wasn't called the status bar), but it is just as wrong to put them in the window's title bar. Also, keep in mind that The Gimp is moving to a single window UI. With that in place, it would be incredibly illogical to have zoom / units Windicators (which are document-specific) appearing in the context of the entire application. This needs more rules, and some good tests to decide when things fit. Thanks, Dylan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 17 June 2010 15:58, Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Roth Robert wrote on 03/05/10 13:22: ... Starting a new topic to discuss the suggestions, comments, ideas regarding the windicators http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333 Mark blogged about. ... With help from Ted Gould of the DX team, I have now (mostly) finished a specification for windicators, with a few examples. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators Hmm... here is a quote from Mark in an earlier thread that I started: For designing indicators, ask yourself: - what is the *status* I am conveying, and - what options are there to manipulate that status? If you don't have both, especially the status, don't use an indicator. Use a menu. So... what's the status for the Gimp and F-spot mockups? Scale and tags don't seem to fit at all with the original Windicator idea. In fact the only one that seems to fit the status argument is the Firefox one, but you can't manipulate the status so it shouldn't be a Windicator Luke. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Hmm... here is a quote from Mark in an earlier thread that I started: For designing indicators, ask yourself: - what is the *status* I am conveying, and - what options are there to manipulate that status? If you don't have both, especially the status, don't use an indicator. Use a menu. So... what's the status for the Gimp and F-spot mockups? Scale and tags don't seem to fit at all with the original Windicator idea. In fact the only one that seems to fit the status argument is the Firefox one, but you can't manipulate the status so it shouldn't be a Windicator Luke. To be a little more productive, here are some ideas :) Evolution: Connection status - Icons: Connected / Disconnected Options: Online / Offline Firefox: Connection status - Icons: Connected / Disconnected Options: Online / Offline Ad-blocking Active - Icons: Coloured Adblock logo / Greyed Adblock logo Options: Enable / Disable Javascript Active: Icons: Coloured cog / Greyed Cog Options: Enable / Disable Bookmarked status: Icons: Yellow star / Empty grey outlined star Options: Bookmark / Delete bookmark Gedit: Save Status - Icons: Coloured disk / Greyed Disk Options: Save / Revert Luke. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 11:13 -0700, Dylan McCall wrote: (And a quick note about Evolution: 2.30 has evolution-express. Try evolution --express from the command line. It's used in Meego and it is awesome). Express mode will be used in Maverick UNE (expectedly).[1] [1]:https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-maverick-une-app-selection ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators mockups (daniel planas)
El vie, 28-05-2010 a las 03:35 +0200, Frederik Nnaji escribió: Hey there Oscar, On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 19:04, Oscar RdG oscar...@gmail.com wrote: [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators?action=AttachFiledo=viewtarget=une_windicators_max.jpg Please explain if you may.. : how does this mockup honor the planned introduction of Global Menu? This model honors as the windicators should work in the netbook interface panel, to be the same as the system displays a small separation is necessary to avoid confusing (eg connectivity to the indicator of on-line) Daniel.P -- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators mockups (daniel planas)
On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 08:59, Oscar RdG oscar...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! That is Dani's mockup. He put together on the panel the window controls, window title and window menu at the same time. I just wanted to point out that the original idea that Mark wrote about [1] was to combine title and menu on the panel, but not at the same time: By default, we’d display the contents of the title bar. When you mouse up to the panel, or when you press the Alt key, the contents would switch to the menu. That way, you’re looking at the document title most of the time, unless you move towards it to click on the menu. Nothing is unclear on this one now. I simply could have read up more thoroughly on Windicators before asking.. Maybe i did not explain myselft clearly enough! :) thanks for this clarification ;) [1] http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/359 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators mockups (daniel planas)
Hey there Oscar, On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 19:04, Oscar RdG oscar...@gmail.com wrote: [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators?action=AttachFiledo=viewtarget=une_windicators_max.jpg Please explain if you may.. : how does this mockup honor the planned introduction of Global Menu? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators mockups (daniel planas)
The mockups look awesome, excuse me if this is off-topic but I wanted to comment on the windicators themselves. I find the saved/unsaved windicator is confusing. Can someone describe the projected behavior? My questions is this: if multiple documents are open does it reflect the state of the active document, or the global state where if just one document is unsaved it goes to the unsaved state. In the former case, it's not really window level state, and in the latter it will probably tend to always be red- which is kind of useless. However, I think an important point to note is that while that's not useful in the window itself, it *is* useful in the alt-tab menu for the case where you've minimized a window but forgot that you were working on something, you can be alerted that you have unsaved work. -- -- Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators mockups (daniel planas)
Hello again, I'm glad they liked my mockups. I built the models for the interface LIght (the future of network ubuntu remix) need something to separate the windicators indicators (when the windows are maximized), we find confusion by users. (Ex: network indicator and windicator connected). On the wiki you will find the new mockups and old ones. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators#preview (wiki) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators?action=AttachFiledo=viewtarget=une_windicators.jpg (Light normal) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators?action=AttachFiledo=viewtarget=une_windicators_max.jpg (Ligt maximized) indeed, I added to the icons of windicators a sketch of the red, (online, not-connected, and connect-error) hope you like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators?action=AttachFiledo=viewtarget=windicators_icons.tar Daniel.P ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators mockups (daniel planas)
Hello, Nice mockups Dani!!! Just one comment: on the maximized window mockup [1] you have put on the panel both the [window controls + window title] and the [window menu]. I think the idea is to show just the [window controls + window title], and then on a mouse hover morph them to show [window controls + window menu]. That way, it will look cleaner. Cheers [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators?action=AttachFiledo=viewtarget=une_windicators_max.jpg On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:21 PM, daniel planas daniplana...@gmail.comwrote: Hello again, I'm glad they liked my mockups. I built the models for the interface LIght (the future of network ubuntu remix) need something to separate the windicators indicators (when the windows are maximized), we find confusion by users. (Ex: network indicator and windicator connected). On the wiki you will find the new mockups and old ones. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators#preview (wiki) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators?action=AttachFiledo=viewtarget=une_windicators.jpg (Light normal) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators?action=AttachFiledo=viewtarget=une_windicators_max.jpg (Ligt maximized) indeed, I added to the icons of windicators a sketch of the red, (online, not-connected, and connect-error) hope you like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators?action=AttachFiledo=viewtarget=windicators_icons.tar Daniel.P ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatanahttps://launchpad.net/%7Eayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatanahttps://launchpad.net/%7Eayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Windicators mockups (daniel planas)
hello, some of you probably know my previous work, for others I am unknown. In any case I see that here there is much talk and nothing else, begin to work seriously. why I realizdo my first ideas that you can find on the wiki and the first icons. hello, some of you probably know my previous work, for others I am unknown. In any case I see that here there is much talk and nothing else, begin to work seriously. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Maverick/daniel_windicators I made my first ideas that you can find on the wiki and the first icons. I tried that windicators consistent with the window buttons (with inset) but without being buttons (such as indicators), I hope you like it. ps1: we need talk to save metaphor ps2: i atach the icons i made -- windicators_icons.tar Description: Unix tar archive ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 16/05/10 08:17, Akshat Jain wrote: On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 09/05/10 07:45, akshat jain wrote: But what will happen to Windicators when I minimize windows You minimise them too. They are specifically status associated with that window - so you won't miss them. But wouldn't it be better that that the windicators show up in the window list? So I won't have to open a minimized window to just see the windicators.like I have an Image in my mind with with Compiz Live Preview like popups with Windicators instead of Window Previews. Interesting... yes, one could put a rendition of the Windicators on the windows in the Alt-TAB preview. Cool idea. David, could you make a note of that, please, in your window management file? Windicators would naturally appear in the alt-tab preview, as the preview is a complete representation of the window including content and window decorations. Are you thinking that we would make them larger or somehow emphasize them? David Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 17/05/10 09:50, David Siegel wrote: Windicators would naturally appear in the alt-tab preview, as the preview is a complete representation of the window including content and window decorations. Are you thinking that we would make them larger or somehow emphasize them? Yes, perhaps show them at 1:1 scale as emblems on the window previews, whatever the underlying window scale is for the reveal / alt-tab. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
the automatically-generated windicators (as window decorations) would be was to small in the preview to be of any real use to most users. Maybe either emlemized over the preview, or under the preview name? Perhaps the same could be done when zoomed out in gnome-shell/gnome 3. On May 17, 2010 5:59 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 17/05/10 09:50, David Siegel wrote: Windicators would naturally appear in the alt-tab preview, ... Yes, perhaps show them at 1:1 scale as emblems on the window previews, whatever the underlying window scale is for the reveal / alt-tab. Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:59, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 17/05/10 09:50, David Siegel wrote: Windicators would naturally appear in the alt-tab preview, as the preview is a complete representation of the window including content and window decorations. Are you thinking that we would make them larger or somehow emphasize them? Yes, perhaps show them at 1:1 scale as emblems on the window previews, whatever the underlying window scale is for the reveal / alt-tab. wow. +1 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 01:47, Brandon Watkins bwa...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting idea but I am not sure I grasp the real usability application for it. What point exactly would seeing the application indicators large have? well, if you need to ask like that, check: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333 otherwise perhaps you misunderstood, or i misunderstood. it's 1:1 scale, meaning the windicators are shown in their usual size, even while their respective window is scaled down to what have you.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Somewhat contrived user story: suppose I have a whole bunch of applications open, and all of them have some sort of audio playing, and all of them have a volume level windicator. If one application starts playing some sound too loud, I can see -- while I'm alt-tabbing -- what the respective sound levels of all my applications are. If the windicators are only rendered nativly in the window, it will be too small to see or be useful. But, if the windicators are larger, then I can quickly see which window is too loud, switch to it, and fix it. I'm sure that there are much better examples of why enlarging windicators when windows are iconified is a good idea, but this was ay the top of my head ;) On May 17, 2010 9:52 PM, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 01:47, Brandon Watkins bwa...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting idea but I ... well, if you need to ask like that, check: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333 otherwise perhaps you misunderstood, or i misunderstood. it's 1:1 scale, meaning the windicators are shown in their usual size, even while their respective window is scaled down to what have you.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Fair point :D I was basing that on Shuttleworth's blog post about windicators, an example given was a volume indicator. Regardless, I feel like anything that is small, used to convey information to the user, and tied to a window should be made larger when the window is thumbnail-ized (better term, anyone?), otherwise it is no longer useful. On May 17, 2010 11:45 PM, Tyler Brainerd tylerbrain...@gmail.com wrote: It'll be a little easier to come up with user stories when we have some idea of what the windicators will actually be. :D It'd be nice to get a nice big set of basic ideas of what should and what shouldn't be in a windicator. On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Alex Schoof alex.sch...@gmail.com wrote: Somewhat contrived... ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
But still, your point stands, and I agree. Another example is when working with a large number of documents, getting a quick view to see if they are all saved/synced with UbuntuOne or DB before logging off for the day. On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Alex Schoof alex.sch...@gmail.com wrote: Fair point :D I was basing that on Shuttleworth's blog post about windicators, an example given was a volume indicator. Regardless, I feel like anything that is small, used to convey information to the user, and tied to a window should be made larger when the window is thumbnail-ized (better term, anyone?), otherwise it is no longer useful. On May 17, 2010 11:45 PM, Tyler Brainerd tylerbrain...@gmail.com wrote: It'll be a little easier to come up with user stories when we have some idea of what the windicators will actually be. :D It'd be nice to get a nice big set of basic ideas of what should and what shouldn't be in a windicator. On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Alex Schoof alex.sch...@gmail.com wrote: Somewhat contrived... ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 09/05/10 07:45, akshat jain wrote: But what will happen to Windicators when I minimize windows You minimise them too. They are specifically status associated with that window - so you won't miss them. But wouldn't it be better that that the windicators show up in the window list? So I won't have to open a minimized window to just see the windicators.like I have an Image in my mind with with Compiz Live Preview like popups with Windicators instead of Window Previews. Useful IMO ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 16/05/10 08:17, Akshat Jain wrote: On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com mailto:m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 09/05/10 07:45, akshat jain wrote: But what will happen to Windicators when I minimize windows You minimise them too. They are specifically status associated with that window - so you won't miss them. But wouldn't it be better that that the windicators show up in the window list? So I won't have to open a minimized window to just see the windicators.like I have an Image in my mind with with Compiz Live Preview like popups with Windicators instead of Window Previews. Interesting... yes, one could put a rendition of the Windicators on the windows in the Alt-TAB preview. Cool idea. David, could you make a note of that, please, in your window management file? Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 16 May 2010 14:31, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 16/05/10 08:17, Akshat Jain wrote: On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 09/05/10 07:45, akshat jain wrote: But what will happen to Windicators when I minimize windows You minimise them too. They are specifically status associated with that window - so you won't miss them. But wouldn't it be better that that the windicators show up in the window list? So I won't have to open a minimized window to just see the windicators.like I have an Image in my mind with with Compiz Live Preview like popups with Windicators instead of Window Previews. Interesting... yes, one could put a rendition of the Windicators on the windows in the Alt-TAB preview. Cool idea. David, could you make a note of that, please, in your window management file? Mark Making it (slightly) easier to access the windicators would provide the application developers with a more suitable place to provide quick access to application functionality. This would mean less developers want to put their application in the notification area; so the right top of the screen should be a bit less cluttered. It is a good thing to make less applications use Application Indicators; they should be used to notify the users or give them access to things that don't have their own open window, like Network Manager. There are currently a lot of applications that have an Application Indicator, but don't really use it properly. Those applications could be using windocators instead when they would be easily accessible. Leaves the question where to minimise applications to if you can't put them in the tray anymore (which is a good thing, I've always found it a very unintuitive place to hide applications). I think we could do with providing nothing extra: the most important reason for providing something as horrendous as 'minimise to tray' is because applications take a lot of place in the currently used window list panel applet. However, the Unity dock doesn't have this problem as the icons are smaller, and most of them are already there. For most applications keeping them running unhidden would only mean an extra triangle at the dock next to an icon. Regards, -- Sense Hofstede [ˈsɛn.sə ˈɦɔf.steː.də] ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Sense Hofstede qe...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 16 May 2010 14:31, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 16/05/10 08:17, Akshat Jain wrote: On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 09/05/10 07:45, akshat jain wrote: But what will happen to Windicators when I minimize windows You minimise them too. They are specifically status associated with that window - so you won't miss them. But wouldn't it be better that that the windicators show up in the window list? So I won't have to open a minimized window to just see the windicators.like I have an Image in my mind with with Compiz Live Preview like popups with Windicators instead of Window Previews. Interesting... yes, one could put a rendition of the Windicators on the windows in the Alt-TAB preview. Cool idea. David, could you make a note of that, please, in your window management file? Mark Making it (slightly) easier to access the windicators would provide the application developers with a more suitable place to provide quick access to application functionality. This would mean less developers want to put their application in the notification area; so the right top of the screen should be a bit less cluttered. I hate the Minimize to Tray concept.One who invented this should be forced to watch BSoDs for 10 days continiously while tied to a chair and eyes forced to open.It is so much irritating and cluttered. It is a good thing to make less applications use Application Indicators; they should be used to notify the users or give them access to things that don't have their own open window, like Network Manager. There are currently a lot of applications that have an Application Indicator, but don't really use it properly. Those applications could be using windocators instead when they would be easily accessible. Agreed Leaves the question where to minimise applications to if you can't put them in the tray anymore (which is a good thing, I've always found it a very unintuitive place to hide applications). I think we could do with providing nothing extra: the most important reason for providing something as horrendous as 'minimise to tray' is because applications take a lot of place in the currently used window list panel applet. However, the Unity dock doesn't have this problem as the icons are smaller, and most of them are already there. For most applications keeping them running unhidden would only mean an extra triangle at the dock next to an icon. I think there can be an Application-Stasher applet(kind of like a drawer but horizontal) where Applications can be minimized *if I wan't them to* because I don't see the utility of Minimize to Tray for other than application minimizing since notifications are handled by Notify-OSD and (soon) Windicators.Not needed on Unity but needed on Desktop. --- Mark I think since there is no window list in Unity.We can can make the the Background Turn Red and blink for a few seconds and when the user hovers over it voila,a minimal menu with icons of Windicators whick expand on click and provide information -- I am 13 year old and make a lot of typos. I am a non-native english speaker. I will never answer emails half-asleep again. I love Ubuntu. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 16 May 2010 16:21, Akshat Jain ssj6akshat1...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Sense Hofstede qe...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 16 May 2010 14:31, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 16/05/10 08:17, Akshat Jain wrote: On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 09/05/10 07:45, akshat jain wrote: But what will happen to Windicators when I minimize windows You minimise them too. They are specifically status associated with that window - so you won't miss them. But wouldn't it be better that that the windicators show up in the window list? So I won't have to open a minimized window to just see the windicators.like I have an Image in my mind with with Compiz Live Preview like popups with Windicators instead of Window Previews. Interesting... yes, one could put a rendition of the Windicators on the windows in the Alt-TAB preview. Cool idea. David, could you make a note of that, please, in your window management file? Mark Making it (slightly) easier to access the windicators would provide the application developers with a more suitable place to provide quick access to application functionality. This would mean less developers want to put their application in the notification area; so the right top of the screen should be a bit less cluttered. I hate the Minimize to Tray concept.One who invented this should be forced to watch BSoDs for 10 days continiously while tied to a chair and eyes forced to open.It is so much irritating and cluttered. It is a good thing to make less applications use Application Indicators; they should be used to notify the users or give them access to things that don't have their own open window, like Network Manager. There are currently a lot of applications that have an Application Indicator, but don't really use it properly. Those applications could be using windocators instead when they would be easily accessible. Agreed Leaves the question where to minimise applications to if you can't put them in the tray anymore (which is a good thing, I've always found it a very unintuitive place to hide applications). I think we could do with providing nothing extra: the most important reason for providing something as horrendous as 'minimise to tray' is because applications take a lot of place in the currently used window list panel applet. However, the Unity dock doesn't have this problem as the icons are smaller, and most of them are already there. For most applications keeping them running unhidden would only mean an extra triangle at the dock next to an icon. I think there can be an Application-Stasher applet(kind of like a drawer but horizontal) where Applications can be minimized *if I wan't them to* because I don't see the utility of Minimize to Tray for other than application minimizing since notifications are handled by Notify-OSD and (soon) Windicators.Not needed on Unity but needed on Desktop. An application bucket where you can dump applications you don't want to take space sounds like a neat idea. The applications could stay in there, even when they're running and have got the focus -- this could be indicated by placing the focus triangle at the bucket icon (the bucket icon is distinct from application by a different background colour or a border around its icon (what icon?)). When the application wants attention the bucket could either expand and show the list of applications inside with the demanding application showing the regular attention animation, or the drawer icon could perform the want-attention animation itself. Regards, -- Sense Hofstede [ˈsɛn.sə ˈɦɔf.steː.də] ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 16 May 2010 16:37, Akshat Jain ssj6akshat1...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Sense Hofstede qe...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 16 May 2010 16:21, Akshat Jain ssj6akshat1...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Sense Hofstede qe...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 16 May 2010 14:31, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 16/05/10 08:17, Akshat Jain wrote: On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 09/05/10 07:45, akshat jain wrote: But what will happen to Windicators when I minimize windows You minimise them too. They are specifically status associated with that window - so you won't miss them. But wouldn't it be better that that the windicators show up in the window list? So I won't have to open a minimized window to just see the windicators.like I have an Image in my mind with with Compiz Live Preview like popups with Windicators instead of Window Previews. Interesting... yes, one could put a rendition of the Windicators on the windows in the Alt-TAB preview. Cool idea. David, could you make a note of that, please, in your window management file? Mark Making it (slightly) easier to access the windicators would provide the application developers with a more suitable place to provide quick access to application functionality. This would mean less developers want to put their application in the notification area; so the right top of the screen should be a bit less cluttered. I hate the Minimize to Tray concept.One who invented this should be forced to watch BSoDs for 10 days continiously while tied to a chair and eyes forced to open.It is so much irritating and cluttered. It is a good thing to make less applications use Application Indicators; they should be used to notify the users or give them access to things that don't have their own open window, like Network Manager. There are currently a lot of applications that have an Application Indicator, but don't really use it properly. Those applications could be using windocators instead when they would be easily accessible. Agreed Leaves the question where to minimise applications to if you can't put them in the tray anymore (which is a good thing, I've always found it a very unintuitive place to hide applications). I think we could do with providing nothing extra: the most important reason for providing something as horrendous as 'minimise to tray' is because applications take a lot of place in the currently used window list panel applet. However, the Unity dock doesn't have this problem as the icons are smaller, and most of them are already there. For most applications keeping them running unhidden would only mean an extra triangle at the dock next to an icon. I think there can be an Application-Stasher applet(kind of like a drawer but horizontal) where Applications can be minimized *if I wan't them to* because I don't see the utility of Minimize to Tray for other than application minimizing since notifications are handled by Notify-OSD and (soon) Windicators.Not needed on Unity but needed on Desktop. An application bucket where you can dump applications you don't want to take space sounds like a neat idea. The applications could stay in there, even when they're running and have got the focus -- this could be indicated by placing the focus triangle at the bucket icon (the bucket icon is distinct from application by a different background colour or a border around its icon (what icon?)). When the application wants attention the bucket could either expand and show the list of applications inside with the demanding application showing the regular attention animation, or the drawer icon could perform the want-attention animation itself. Regards, -- Sense Hofstede [ˈsɛn.sə ˈɦɔf.steː.də] A Notify-OSD popup rather than bucket popup would be better. I meant the case when the window wants attention and you would see it flashing in the regular window list; e.g. when Synaptic has finished installing the packages you've told it to install. Please also make sure to Reply to All, because otherwise the mailing list won't get your mails. -- Sense Hofstede [ˈsɛn.sə ˈɦɔf.steː.də] ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 08:54, Gavin Langdon puttabu...@gmail.com wrote: If this were the case standard widgets could take priority if they're close to the edge (although a good gui designer shouldn't have anything too close to the edge anyway) that part in brackets is what i'm interested in at the moment... solutions, not problems. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 00:11, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 04/05/10 09:03, Sam Spilsbury wrote: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Benjamin Humphrey humphre...@gmail.com wrote: That's going to mess with user's expectations when they click on a black space and start resizing a window instead. Less so, if the mouse pointer is shaped appropriately for a grab handle. so true! but .. why doesn't the mouse pointer change it's shape accordingly say when i hover the window title bar? isn't it also draggable? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 16/05/10 16:51, Frederik Nnaji wrote: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 00:11, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com mailto:m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 04/05/10 09:03, Sam Spilsbury wrote: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Benjamin Humphrey humphre...@gmail.com mailto:humphre...@gmail.com wrote: That's going to mess with user's expectations when they click on a black space and start resizing a window instead. Less so, if the mouse pointer is shaped appropriately for a grab handle. so true! but .. why doesn't the mouse pointer change it's shape accordingly say when i hover the window title bar? isn't it also draggable? Good point. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
They are on the applications window border so when window is minimized they go with it. On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:45 AM, akshat jain ssj6akshat1...@gmail.comwrote: But what will happen to Windicators when I minimize windows ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 06/05/10 18:16, Jan-Christoph Borchardt wrote: On 4 May 2010 06:32, Diego Moya turi...@gmail.com wrote: I have some more questions. What will happen with windicators if the window controls are configured back to the right of the window? Will they be swapped to the top left corner, or will be displaced to the left just a bit? I guess that will be out of the question once the placement of window controls is locked. I assume it will be settable with a gconf key, in the case where a window manager is handling them. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 05/03/2010 05:22 AM, Roth Robert wrote: Otherwise I like the idea to use the right side of the titlebar to show progress status, app status, share icons, etc. Does this need to be on the right side of the title bar? It seems like the location of the windicators could easily be themable, and that themes with right-sided window controls could place the indicators slightly off right. This would then be consistent with the upper right of the screen - you have the power / close button in the very corner, and then a series of indicators next to it. Thanks, Scott Ritchie ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Alle 08:30 del 6/5/2010, Scott Ritchie ha scritto: On 05/03/2010 05:22 AM, Roth Robert wrote: Otherwise I like the idea to use the right side of the titlebar to show progress status, app status, share icons, etc. Does this need to be on the right side of the title bar? It seems like the location of the windicators could easily be themable, and that themes with right-sided window controls could place the indicators slightly off right. I agree with Scott. But also I still don't understand why windicators should be placed on the right side of the bar since we already have Notify OSD bubble on the same side so potentially we could have to deal with transient notification covering Windicators. On the left side of the bar there could be exactly the same space if we make the title slide to the right when Windicator needs more space and having notification OSD covering minimize,mazimize,close buttons being ephemeral it's not an issue and we're already used to it. I'm looking forward to see you all at UDS :) Ciao! -- Paolo Sammicheli EMail: xdatap1(at)ubuntu.com https://launchpad.net/~xdatap1 - Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Luke Morton luke.mor...@internode.on.netwrote: Ambiance has a 1px border on the left and right--I don't think that's enough to negate the case for a resize grip. As to your example, I find resizing the terminal to be particularly frustrating. The tiny border is EXTREMELY annoying on my laptop in particular, as I lack the dexterity of a mouse when using the nub or trackpad (also holding down alt and the middle key while dragging is way out of the question on a laptop). It generally takes me about 3 or 4 seconds to find the draggable edge (and that's a lot of time compared to the split-second process it is for other decorators). Though it's nice to have flush themes, resizing really doesn't work with anything less than 3 pixels. Would be that hard to modify the window manager to watch the outer 5 pixels regardless of decorator border? That would result in a considerably easier experience. If this were the case standard widgets could take priority if they're close to the edge (although a good gui designer shouldn't have anything too close to the edge anyway) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Meant to send this to everyone but ended up sending it to Alex only: Alex, Ha! The theme I use, and the new default themes, certainly make it very hard to resize windows. It appears there is only 1px x 1px grab area in Lucid. There's a bug report somewhere that I was reading a few weeks ago... On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Gavin Langdon puttabu...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Luke Morton luke.mor...@internode.on.netwrote: Ambiance has a 1px border on the left and right--I don't think that's enough to negate the case for a resize grip. As to your example, I find resizing the terminal to be particularly frustrating. The tiny border is EXTREMELY annoying on my laptop in particular, as I lack the dexterity of a mouse when using the nub or trackpad (also holding down alt and the middle key while dragging is way out of the question on a laptop). It generally takes me about 3 or 4 seconds to find the draggable edge (and that's a lot of time compared to the split-second process it is for other decorators). Though it's nice to have flush themes, resizing really doesn't work with anything less than 3 pixels. Would be that hard to modify the window manager to watch the outer 5 pixels regardless of decorator border? That would result in a considerably easier experience. If this were the case standard widgets could take priority if they're close to the edge (although a good gui designer shouldn't have anything too close to the edge anyway) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Benjamin Humphrey Ubuntu Manual Team Lead Dunedin, New Zealand http://www.ubuntu-manual.org www.interesting.co.nz ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Of course the simple fix is to just add in a few pixels of virtual, invisible grab space around the corner of the window. On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Benjamin Humphrey humphre...@gmail.comwrote: Meant to send this to everyone but ended up sending it to Alex only: Alex, Ha! The theme I use, and the new default themes, certainly make it very hard to resize windows. It appears there is only 1px x 1px grab area in Lucid. There's a bug report somewhere that I was reading a few weeks ago... On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Gavin Langdon puttabu...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Luke Morton luke.mor...@internode.on.net wrote: Ambiance has a 1px border on the left and right--I don't think that's enough to negate the case for a resize grip. As to your example, I find resizing the terminal to be particularly frustrating. The tiny border is EXTREMELY annoying on my laptop in particular, as I lack the dexterity of a mouse when using the nub or trackpad (also holding down alt and the middle key while dragging is way out of the question on a laptop). It generally takes me about 3 or 4 seconds to find the draggable edge (and that's a lot of time compared to the split-second process it is for other decorators). Though it's nice to have flush themes, resizing really doesn't work with anything less than 3 pixels. Would be that hard to modify the window manager to watch the outer 5 pixels regardless of decorator border? That would result in a considerably easier experience. If this were the case standard widgets could take priority if they're close to the edge (although a good gui designer shouldn't have anything too close to the edge anyway) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Benjamin Humphrey Ubuntu Manual Team Lead Dunedin, New Zealand http://www.ubuntu-manual.org www.interesting.co.nz -- Benjamin Humphrey Ubuntu Manual Team Lead Dunedin, New Zealand http://www.ubuntu-manual.org www.interesting.co.nz ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 4 May 2010 05:48, Tyler Brainerd tylerbrain...@gmail.com wrote: Actually I believe Mark gave some pretty clear reasons why. They want the upper right to have a particular analogy, just like they want the upper left. Right is for notifications, volume, brightness, and similar controls, the left is for menus, opening and closing, and other window management. It really does follow a logic; or, at least, more logic then no logic. It just wasn't particularly stated clearly. The Shut Down (etc.) menu is in the top-right. I understand it was put there by analogy with the windows' close buttons. Should it now be in the top-left? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
The Shut Down (etc.) menu is in the top-right. I understand it was put there by analogy with the windows' close buttons. Should it now be in the top-left? lol, oh how right you are. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 04/05/10 09:03, Sam Spilsbury wrote: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Benjamin Humphrey humphre...@gmail.com wrote: Of course the simple fix is to just add in a few pixels of virtual, invisible grab space around the corner of the window. That's going to mess with user's expectations when they click on a black space and start resizing a window instead. Less so, if the mouse pointer is shaped appropriately for a grab handle. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 04/05/10 06:30, Luke Morton wrote: Ambiance has a 1px border on the left and right--I don't think that's enough to negate the case for a resize grip. As to your example, I find resizing the terminal to be particularly frustrating. Yes, this is a real problem in Ambiance and Radiance. I'd like to do something smart in the window manager, to present a bigger drag handle than the chrome expresses. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Tue, 2010-05-04 at 23:10 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: On 04/05/10 06:30, Luke Morton wrote: Ambiance has a 1px border on the left and right--I don't think that's enough to negate the case for a resize grip. As to your example, I find resizing the terminal to be particularly frustrating. Yes, this is a real problem in Ambiance and Radiance. I'd like to do something smart in the window manager, to present a bigger drag handle than the chrome expresses. I like it. The drag handle would probably need to extend out from the chrome and not into the contents of the window to avoid accidental clicks on the chrome in instances where other widgets touch the window's edge. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Hey, In terms of the sound indicators id like if all the sound levels could be controlled from the main sound indicator rather than having 2 sound level controls. So when an application that uses sound starts playing, another sound level bar is added with a description above it. Just an idea but I think having 2 would look slightly bad IMO. -fagan On Mon, 2010-05-03 at 15:22 +0300, Roth Robert wrote: Hello! Starting a new topic to discuss the suggestions, comments, ideas regarding the windicators Mark blogged about. The idea seems awesome, but there are many minor details which require discussion in my opinion. Some of them were already noticed by readers on Mark's blog, like the problem that the sound windicator raises, that people will have more sound applets, one for the system, and one for every application that uses sounds. This in my opinion needs rethinking because there are problematic usecases, like:I am listening music with Rhythmbox, and working in a maximized window with some sourcecode in an IDE. I receive a voice call from a friend (through Empathy) - in that moment I want to mute the music playing... or maybe I just want to lower the volume... I have to switch to the rhythmbox window, lower the volume, switch to empathy, accept the voice call. So the point is when indicators were introduced, some of them were general - like the sound applet, status menu - these shouldn't be duplicated as windicators. A sound indicator handling all the applications would be better, just like the gnome pulse applet but implemented as a system indicator, maybe added the now playing information and general sound-related actions, as discussed earlier. Otherwise I like the idea to use the right side of the titlebar to show progress status, app status, share icons, etc. Another tiny detail I have a problem with... having progress status indicators on the top right side and having the transient status message appear on the bottom left side seems strange... do the status messages have to appear on the bottom left? Until now it was fine because the progress indicator was in the statusbar and the status message also, but these belong together in my opinion. What if they'd appear below the windicators for a short time? Going even further with the idea... what if they would be NotifyOSD messages with smaller bubble, font, and positioned below the window border? So these are my ideas now regarding the idea of windicators but I'm thinking how to mix the idea of windicators for indicators and esfera for window management, because both seem very useful ... Ideas, suggestions, comments please... ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 03/05/10 13:22, Roth Robert wrote: Another tiny detail I have a problem with... having progress status indicators on the top right side and having the transient status message appear on the bottom left side seems strange... do the status messages have to appear on the bottom left? Until now it was fine because the progress indicator was in the statusbar and the status message also, but these belong together in my opinion. What if they'd appear below the windicators for a short time? That's an interesting idea. One issue might be that the toolbar usually shows right below the window title, and it's harder to imagine the status message over the toolbar than over the content. Going even further with the idea... what if they would be NotifyOSD messages with smaller bubble, font, and positioned below the window border? We *could* do an overlay, yes. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
I did not consider the toolbar being there as a problem, just like there was no problem with notifyOSD notifications appearing on the top of window controls, because when the user hovers the mouse over the notification, it becomes almost invisible, and it sits on top of the toolbar just for a few seconds anyway. The base of the idea is that focusing on smaller screens should not mean forgetting about Desktop or Laptop users with larger screens... imagine a notification appearing on the bottom left side that something has started - for example a download - then to check the progress of it you will have to look at the opposite corner. Another problem is that some apps use the bottom right corner for some notifications - for example Mozilla products - that means that some app-specific notifications appear in the bottom left corners, other (Mozilla based) appear in the bottom right corner, and the system notifications in the top right corner. (That means three different places to notify the user about something - total confusion) If people have firefox-notifyosd installed, than this is simplified a bit. IMO it would be the best solution to have all the notifications in the top right corner - system notifications in the top-right corner of the desktop, and app-specific notifications in the top-rigth corner of the windows. Robert On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 03/05/10 13:22, Roth Robert wrote: Another tiny detail I have a problem with... having progress status indicators on the top right side and having the transient status message appear on the bottom left side seems strange... do the status messages have to appear on the bottom left? Until now it was fine because the progress indicator was in the statusbar and the status message also, but these belong together in my opinion. What if they'd appear below the windicators for a short time? That's an interesting idea. One issue might be that the toolbar usually shows right below the window title, and it's harder to imagine the status message over the toolbar than over the content. Going even further with the idea... what if they would be NotifyOSD messages with smaller bubble, font, and positioned below the window border? We *could* do an overlay, yes. Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 03/05/10 13:22, Roth Robert wrote: Another tiny detail I have a problem with... having progress status indicators on the top right side and having the transient status message appear on the bottom left side seems strange... do the status messages have to appear on the bottom left? Until now it was fine because the progress indicator was in the statusbar and the status message also, but these belong together in my opinion. What if they'd appear below the windicators for a short time? That's an interesting idea. One issue might be that the toolbar usually shows right below the window title, and it's harder to imagine the status message over the toolbar than over the content. Going even further with the idea... what if they would be NotifyOSD messages with smaller bubble, font, and positioned below the window border? We *could* do an overlay, yes. Sorry to hijack this discussion on to a slightly more technical issue, but I'm not particularly sure where the whole idea started. While I am in favour of the design aspects of windicators (per-application volume control from the window itself sounds great), I am slightly skeptical as to how this could be implemented in both the compiz, mutter and metacity codebase, considering the fact that currently the window decorations are drawn as a GDK image in metacity and an X Pixmap / GTK image in compiz and the only way of interacting with them is a series of input windows in predefined places. In order for this to work, you would have to either a) Go and extend libwnck to allow placement of random pixmaps and input windows in decorations (something which will not work well) or b) Implement gtk widgets within the decorator (which is something similar to the libdbus notifications that ubuntu is doing right now) If it's the latter that is the case, gtk-window-decorator and metacity will both need some heavy lifting. How do we plan to implement this and will any work be done upstream. Kind Regards, Sam Spilsbury (Concerned Upstream) Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Sam Spilsbury ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
This depends from my point of view in the way 10.10 will integrate Gnome-Shell ... because if it will be the main window manager, than only mutter has to be supported as far as I know, because GS uses only mutter, and there is currently no possibility of changing the window manager, and there is no support planned, because as the Gnome Shell devs stated, designing a shared library - a common base for window managers to implement - would require a huge effort ... If the main window manager will not be GS though, these are serious questions indeed. Regards, Robert On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Sam Spilsbury smspil...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 03/05/10 13:22, Roth Robert wrote: Another tiny detail I have a problem with... having progress status indicators on the top right side and having the transient status message appear on the bottom left side seems strange... do the status messages have to appear on the bottom left? Until now it was fine because the progress indicator was in the statusbar and the status message also, but these belong together in my opinion. What if they'd appear below the windicators for a short time? That's an interesting idea. One issue might be that the toolbar usually shows right below the window title, and it's harder to imagine the status message over the toolbar than over the content. Going even further with the idea... what if they would be NotifyOSD messages with smaller bubble, font, and positioned below the window border? We *could* do an overlay, yes. Sorry to hijack this discussion on to a slightly more technical issue, but I'm not particularly sure where the whole idea started. While I am in favour of the design aspects of windicators (per-application volume control from the window itself sounds great), I am slightly skeptical as to how this could be implemented in both the compiz, mutter and metacity codebase, considering the fact that currently the window decorations are drawn as a GDK image in metacity and an X Pixmap / GTK image in compiz and the only way of interacting with them is a series of input windows in predefined places. In order for this to work, you would have to either a) Go and extend libwnck to allow placement of random pixmaps and input windows in decorations (something which will not work well) or b) Implement gtk widgets within the decorator (which is something similar to the libdbus notifications that ubuntu is doing right now) If it's the latter that is the case, gtk-window-decorator and metacity will both need some heavy lifting. How do we plan to implement this and will any work be done upstream. Kind Regards, Sam Spilsbury (Concerned Upstream) Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Sam Spilsbury ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Which is sort of my point. It doesn't seem to me like Ubuntu is ever planning on using gnome-shell, or they wouldn't be duplicating work on the exact same areas of the desktop. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Roth Robert evf...@gmail.com wrote: I agree, I'm not a Gnome Shell fan either, I like Gnome in its current state and with its current customizability. And I know I'm not alone. But the level of integration of Gnome Shell with Ubuntu has to be take into consideration when talking about implementation issues like how will this be implemented in compiz, mutter and metacity... Thanks for your comment anyway! Best Regards, Robert On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Tyler Brainerd tylerbrain...@gmail.comwrote: and there is currently no possibility of changing the window manager, and there is no support planned, Which is pretty much exactly why many Ubuntu users do not ever want Gnome-Shell. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Roth Robert evf...@gmail.com wrote: This depends from my point of view in the way 10.10 will integrate Gnome-Shell ... because if it will be the main window manager, than only mutter has to be supported as far as I know, because GS uses only mutter, and there is currently no possibility of changing the window manager, and there is no support planned, because as the Gnome Shell devs stated, designing a shared library - a common base for window managers to implement - would require a huge effort ... If the main window manager will not be GS though, these are serious questions indeed. Regards, Robert On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Sam Spilsbury smspil...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 03/05/10 13:22, Roth Robert wrote: Another tiny detail I have a problem with... having progress status indicators on the top right side and having the transient status message appear on the bottom left side seems strange... do the status messages have to appear on the bottom left? Until now it was fine because the progress indicator was in the statusbar and the status message also, but these belong together in my opinion. What if they'd appear below the windicators for a short time? That's an interesting idea. One issue might be that the toolbar usually shows right below the window title, and it's harder to imagine the status message over the toolbar than over the content. Going even further with the idea... what if they would be NotifyOSD messages with smaller bubble, font, and positioned below the window border? We *could* do an overlay, yes. Sorry to hijack this discussion on to a slightly more technical issue, but I'm not particularly sure where the whole idea started. While I am in favour of the design aspects of windicators (per-application volume control from the window itself sounds great), I am slightly skeptical as to how this could be implemented in both the compiz, mutter and metacity codebase, considering the fact that currently the window decorations are drawn as a GDK image in metacity and an X Pixmap / GTK image in compiz and the only way of interacting with them is a series of input windows in predefined places. In order for this to work, you would have to either a) Go and extend libwnck to allow placement of random pixmaps and input windows in decorations (something which will not work well) or b) Implement gtk widgets within the decorator (which is something similar to the libdbus notifications that ubuntu is doing right now) If it's the latter that is the case, gtk-window-decorator and metacity will both need some heavy lifting. How do we plan to implement this and will any work be done upstream. Kind Regards, Sam Spilsbury (Concerned Upstream) Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Sam Spilsbury ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Rather then adding complexity, windicators Indicators are icons, different applications have different icons. http://meson.us/x/gnome/Nautilus.jpg --assume distro polish of course All the app needs is an minimize icon/close icon. The rest of the design is up to the app designer, who could can push app info into the status bar or pull in a volume indicator as needed. An easy way to do this of course is a good thing and maybe thats what this is trying to achieve, however apps shouldn't be forced into a shape not necessary. Oh the beauty of touch. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Tyler Brainerd tylerbrain...@gmail.com wrote: I disagree. I think it will only be good for the user if we have consistent rules in the windicator area. Many mans can be moved their for simplification of control. I'm thinking we'll see a huge explosion of using rolled up windows again, as much functionality can be contained in this area. Hey, that's a nice point. I commented on Mark's blog, asking if there were plans for the window list to this end, since I am still pondering that mockup / maybe working example / thing I told MPT I would make about a week ago. (All these discussions have rocked my world!) On the other hand, it may be interesting to explore shading as a complete replacement to minimizing, though there's probably something else to be done. If my history is right, earlier GUIs did shading instead of having a window list to minimize to, but they all moved away from it. I guess this Gnome Shell mockup I made is fairly relevant to that end, though ugly looking: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/DesignerPlayground/WindowTrays Oh, let's not have for the Windicators what has just been cured for the panel, by the way. The mockup presents a lot of completely different indicators, and I am having trouble categorizing them. They seem very spontaneous, and at that rate there's nothing stopping an entire application from living inside its title bar :b I would really love it if you folks wrote up a nice, quick to understand document for application developers about when to use indicators, with the how and why located somewhere else, like you did with the NotifyOSD stuff. Thanks! Dylan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
I disagree. I think it will only be good for the user if we have consistent rules in the windicator area. Okay, I think I see what your getting at. This is good, and consistent rules are good at a programing level, however what you see directly in-front of you is also art, and there are places where art needs priority over rules. Art as in what an application looks like. For example, consider the top panel of the nautilus mock up, consider it as all windicators. In order for you to be able to move the window by dragging any part of that top bar all the windicators must be following a programing order. This is good. And by no means do I expect applications to be pushed into one bar. But in the same sense that chrome hides the gtkwindow by default for looksusability, the WHOLE top bar needs to be up to the artist. ps. I just though that although nautilus' live in water they still have to obey gravity, and thus should be strong and lightweight. http://meson.us/x/gnome/Nautilus.jpg ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 3 May 2010 12:06, Dylan McCall wrote: On the other hand, it may be interesting to explore shading as a complete replacement to minimizing, though there's probably something else to be done. If my history is right, earlier GUIs did shading instead of having a window list to minimize to, but they all moved away from it. I guess this Gnome Shell mockup I made is fairly relevant to that end, though ugly looking: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/DesignerPlayground/WindowTrays GUIs moved away from shading because it's a crappy design: - shaded windows are scattered all around the screen - they have really small height, making them a difficult target (Fitt's Law and all that) Recent taskbar redesigns (Mac OS X' dock, Windows 7 taskbar) are using the NEXTStep design, where all frequent applications have a persisten square control that centralizes its state information whatever the windows current status is (minimized, not running). Task bars and docks are simply better than shading, because they're bigger and they're always placed at the edge of the screen. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
To treat UI as art before usability is the worst idea ever. good, rational, usability focused design is target number one. Otherwise we will end up with exactly what we used to have in the notification area: chaos, dependent on the relative designs of app designers with different ideas of what is good. There have already been speifications about monochrome icons and such, but usability is far more important. If we get that right, we can dress it up anyway we want. On May 3, 2010, at 10:16 AM, David Hamm davidth...@gmail.com wrote: I disagree. I think it will only be good for the user if we have consistent rules in the windicator area. Okay, I think I see what your getting at. This is good, and consistent rules are good at a programing level, however what you see directly in-front of you is also art, and there are places where art needs priority over rules. Art as in what an application looks like. For example, consider the top panel of the nautilus mock up, consider it as all windicators. In order for you to be able to move the window by dragging any part of that top bar all the windicators must be following a programing order. This is good. And by no means do I expect applications to be pushed into one bar. But in the same sense that chrome hides the gtkwindow by default for looksusability, the WHOLE top bar needs to be up to the artist. ps. I just though that although nautilus' live in water they still have to obey gravity, and thus should be strong and lightweight. http://meson.us/x/gnome/Nautilus.jpg ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
feel free to make up your mind. - my brain is in quantum flux. rules, like having icons for everything, ex. nautilus usability, like only having a home button on an iphone. Sorry for destroying the thread! :D I will try to proceed more quietly. btw. can't wait for ff4, it couldn't come soon enough. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 3 May 2010 22:14, Benjamin Humphrey wrote: Interesting idea and I'll reserve final judgement till I see it in action, or some clearer definitions of what would go into the windicator space. I have a few thinking points, however: I have some more questions. What will happen with windicators if the window controls are configured back to the right of the window? Will they be swapped to the top left corner, or will be displaced to the left just a bit? - Also, why did you move the buttons to the left in an LTS, when there is nothing to replace them? Would it not have been better to wait until you had something to replace the space on the right, before moving the buttons? Curiosity is killing me. Why was there a need to move the window controls at all, and not placing the windicators at the left instead? Is there a design reason why windicators are better at the top right of the window decoration? Someone that participated in the design talks for these indicators could shed some light as for why this layout was to be preferred over the symmetric, less disruptive alternative. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
Actually I believe Mark gave some pretty clear reasons why. They want the upper right to have a particular analogy, just like they want the upper left. Right is for notifications, volume, brightness, and similar controls, the left is for menus, opening and closing, and other window management. It really does follow a logic; or, at least, more logic then no logic. It just wasn't particularly stated clearly. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Diego Moya turi...@gmail.com wrote: On 3 May 2010 22:14, Benjamin Humphrey wrote: Interesting idea and I'll reserve final judgement till I see it in action, or some clearer definitions of what would go into the windicator space. I have a few thinking points, however: I have some more questions. What will happen with windicators if the window controls are configured back to the right of the window? Will they be swapped to the top left corner, or will be displaced to the left just a bit? - Also, why did you move the buttons to the left in an LTS, when there is nothing to replace them? Would it not have been better to wait until you had something to replace the space on the right, before moving the buttons? Curiosity is killing me. Why was there a need to move the window controls at all, and not placing the windicators at the left instead? Is there a design reason why windicators are better at the top right of the window decoration? Someone that participated in the design talks for these indicators could shed some light as for why this layout was to be preferred over the symmetric, less disruptive alternative. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Tue, 2010-05-04 at 15:14 +1200, Benjamin Humphrey wrote: - Would removing the status bar get rid of the grab handle for resizing windows? I believe it would. It should, however, still be possible for developers to add resize handles using gtk.Window.begin_resize_drag. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:09 AM, Luke Morton luke.mor...@internode.on.netwrote: I believe it would. It should, however, still be possible for developers to add resize handles using gtk.Window.begin_resize_drag. Yes, but it's crazy to ask every developer to implement resizing. That's * why* we have a window manager. I don't think window resizing is really an issue, most themes have enough chrome around the window to grab for resizing anyway. Resizing the terminal, which has no status bar, is easy. -- --Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On Tue, 2010-05-04 at 01:13 -0400, Alex Launi wrote: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:09 AM, Luke Morton luke.mor...@internode.on.net wrote: I believe it would. It should, however, still be possible for developers to add resize handles using gtk.Window.begin_resize_drag. Yes, but it's crazy to ask every developer to implement resizing. That's why we have a window manager. Agreed. Although currently developers have to explicitly add a resize grip to a status bar (which they would have also had to have added). But it would be nice to have a simple global solution, and the proposed work that will need to be done to bring Windicators to life may provide a neat solution. I don't think window resizing is really an issue, most themes have enough chrome around the window to grab for resizing anyway. Resizing the terminal, which has no status bar, is easy. Ambiance has a 1px border on the left and right--I don't think that's enough to negate the case for a resize grip. As to your example, I find resizing the terminal to be particularly frustrating. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
