Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity
Hawaiian marriages among siblings had to do with the rank. And like any culture or any HUMAN BEING, Egos run amock. The half-sibling marriage seemed to have been more common, and that was because the females were the ones who were able to pass on their high rank and it took precedence over the husband's rank EVEN IF the husband was a higher ranking chief. I'm sure a lot had to do with the fact that paternity could be questionable. I knew of a couple of ancient full sibling marriages but the most famous half-sibling was of Kiwalao and his maternal half-sister Kekuiapoiwaliliha, who was also the paternal half-sister of Kamehameha I. Although Kamehameha I also took that half-sister as a wife, they never produced any offspring, but Kekuiapoiwaliliha did have a daughter with her maternal half-brother Kiwalao, her name was Keoupuolani, and she married Kamehameha I, and they were the parents of Kamehameha II and Kamehameha III. Keopuolani, like her parents and aunt Kalaniakua were viewed as gods. Which reminds me, Kalaniakua was a daughter of full sibling parents, but whether she was seen as higher ranking than her half-siblings Kekuiapoiwaliliha and Kiwalao, I don't know. I only know that those two daughters of Kalola (from whom this high rank comes from) and Kalola's granddaughter - Keopuolani were highly prized, and respected because of their rank. On Saturday, April 5, 2014 3:08:01 PM UTC-7, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote: I suppose the logic in Hawaiian royalty was that they were superior to begin with, so marriage to another such superior person couldn't help but produce more superior offspring. But I have never once seen any example of royal marriages to siblings. I think in Catholic countries, they would never get approval from the Pope. Thank goodness for that, at least. It reminds me of the book I read last year about early Irish society where they permitted first and second cousins to marry, but caught a lot of flak from Rome because of it and it forced many changes about 1000 years ago in the Catholic church in Ireland. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity From: Antonio Faria antoni...@gmail.com javascript: Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 10:40 am To: azo...@googlegroups.com javascript: The incest taboo among siblings has been exempt among royalty of various cultures throughout history, one example being the royal Hawaiian families in fact it was encouraged they believe such unions produces superiors specimens. On Saturday, April 5, 2014 8:57:25 AM UTC-7, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote: Of course. And that's why you don't ever see a 1st degree connection getting married. Frankly, it's surprising to me 1st and 2nd degree was ever allowed. Maybe it was a way to generate more money by the church, so they allowed it? I'm assuming they had to pay a bigger fee for dispensation, but it's possible even poor people could get it free. I'm changing the subject to reflect this discussion. Look for the previous comments under the subject Help with baptism from Ponta Garca. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with baptism from Ponta Garca From: Cheri Mello gfsc...@gmail.com Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 8:49 am To: Azores Genealogy azo...@googlegroups.com I thought a brother marrying a sister was forbidden by law in most countries and considered incest? So what is incest in the Azores and Portugal? Cheri Mello -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity
Doug, the problem with your observation is that one must bear in mind that living on an island, especially a small island, is much different than being able to traverse the countryside of a landlocked country for days, weeks, months, or years in search of the perfect spouse, who's unrelated, unattached, and unknown by the rest of the community... As for property, title, or wealth being the incentive, we're talking about peasant farmers, for the most part who didn't even have the option of living on the land that they worked - their plight was more akin to the sharecroppers of the southern US than even most of Europe... The only society that existed was among the nobility, not farmers... On Saturday, April 5, 2014 11:51:13 PM UTC-4, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote: For what it's worth, as a comparison to what we see in the Azores, and especially in the smaller villages, I don't have any instances I've ever seen on my mother's Hungarian/Slovak side of cousins getting married. The villages were not huge, but still bigger than most Azorean villages. And so I guess they had a much easier time to find spouses who were unrelated. These were not big landowners, so property didn't seem to be much of a factor. On the other hand, another in-law from Hungary has noble lineage and her tree has many examples of cousins being married. It was clearly a huge factor of property. So it's something related to the social class and family wealth. Some of the more successful of my Pico ancestors have some descendants who married cousins related in up to three different ways. I'm sure most researchers have run across a couple related in something like the 2nd degree, and in the 3rd and 4th degree, but the one I have in mind was also related in another degree like maybe 3rd degree. And I have seen many examples of wealthy families on Terceira like this, as well. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity From: Herb herba...@verizon.net javascript: Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 7:40 pm To: azo...@googlegroups.com javascript: I have never seen a first degree but I have seen lots of 4th, 3rd and second. Need to keep a few things in mind though. During the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe about 40% of marriages were among cousins. During someone's lifetime they might have travelled 20-30 miles from their home so they didn't know a lot of people to marry. Marrying cousins was a way to keep lands and other property in the family name and also seen as a way to keep blood lines pure. There is even an old Portuguese folk song about marrying cousins. I will ask my 85 year old mother and post it here. Herb -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity
I suppose the logic in Hawaiian royalty was that they were superior to begin with, so marriage to another such superior person couldn't help but produce more superior offspring.But I have never once seen any example of royal marriages to siblings. I think in Catholic countries, they would never get approval from the Pope. Thank goodness for that, at least.It reminds me of the book I read last year about early Irish society where they permitted first and second cousins to marry, but caught a lot of flak from Rome because of it and it forced many changes about 1000 years ago in the Catholic church in Ireland.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity From: Antonio Faria antoniof1...@gmail.com Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 10:40 am To: azores@googlegroups.com The incest taboo among siblings has been exempt among royalty of various cultures throughout history, one example being the royal Hawaiian families in fact it was encouraged they believe such unions produces superiors specimens.On Saturday, April 5, 2014 8:57:25 AM UTC-7, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote:Of course. And that's why you don't ever see a 1st degree connection getting married.Frankly, it's surprising to me 1st and 2nd degree was ever allowed. Maybe it was a way to generate more money by the church, so they allowed it? I'm assuming they had to pay a bigger fee for dispensation, but it's possible even poor people could get it free.I'm changing the subject to reflect this discussion. Look for the previous comments under the subject "Help with baptism from Ponta Garca."Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with baptism from Ponta Garca From: Cheri Mello gfsc...@gmail.com Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 8:49 am To: Azores Genealogy azo...@googlegroups.com I thought a brother marrying a sister was forbidden by law in most countries and considered incest? So what is incest in the Azores and Portugal?Cheri Mello -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity
For what it is worth, in all of my experience researching Azorean genealogy, I have never found a marriage among siblings, not even among half-siblings. I have found marriages between uncle and niece and aunt and nephew, rare in number, but existing nevertheless. Incest is defined within a cultural context. Here in Massachusetts Yankees think that marriage between first cousins among Azoreans is yukky. But marriage between first cousins is perfectly legal in Massachusetts and if you traced the genealogies of the Braytons and Durfees you find that marriage to first cousins, often in succeeding generations, among Yankee farmers and cotton mill owners, was the rule, not the exception. John On Saturday, April 5, 2014 6:19 PM, Dano dpai...@gmail.com wrote: Anthony, I admit that Church Law was flouted on a few occasions, mostly in England, but the Church dealt with that harshly, as evidenced by the establishment of the Inquisition. Europe was the Church's domain for the better part of the last millennium.The Church takes its laws very seriously. What happened in Hawaii was beyond Church law, and not within the Church's domain, but, all the same, Christian missionaries preached against those same native customs to which you refer. Have you not seen the film Hawaii, nor read the book, by the same name, written by James Michener - upon which the film was based? Perhaps you should. On Saturday, April 5, 2014 1:40:45 PM UTC-4, Antonio Faria wrote: The incest taboo among siblings has been exempt among royalty of various cultures throughout history, one example being the royal Hawaiian families in fact it was encouraged they believe such unions produces superiors specimens. On Saturday, April 5, 2014 8:57:25 AM UTC-7, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote: Of course. And that's why you don't ever see a 1st degree connection getting married. Frankly, it's surprising to me 1st and 2nd degree was ever allowed. Maybe it was a way to generate more money by the church, so they allowed it? I'm assuming they had to pay a bigger fee for dispensation, but it's possible even poor people could get it free. I'm changing the subject to reflect this discussion. Look for the previous comments under the subject Help with baptism from Ponta Garca. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with baptism from Ponta Garca From: Cheri Mello gfsc...@gmail.com Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 8:49 am To: Azores Genealogy azo...@googlegroups.com I thought a brother marrying a sister was forbidden by law in most countries and considered incest? So what is incest in the Azores and Portugal? Cheri Mello -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity
i have seen in old baptism records in Relva the mention of coitus damnatus. Manoel Em sábado, 5 de abril de 2014 20h04min20s UTC-3, John Raposo escreveu: For what it is worth, in all of my experience researching Azorean genealogy, I have never found a marriage among siblings, not even among half-siblings. I have found marriages between uncle and niece and aunt and nephew, rare in number, but existing nevertheless. Incest is defined within a cultural context. Here in Massachusetts Yankees think that marriage between first cousins among Azoreans is yukky. But marriage between first cousins is perfectly legal in Massachusetts and if you traced the genealogies of the Braytons and Durfees you find that marriage to first cousins, often in succeeding generations, among Yankee farmers and cotton mill owners, was the rule, not the exception. John On Saturday, April 5, 2014 6:19 PM, Dano dpa...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Anthony, I admit that Church Law was flouted on a few occasions, mostly in England, but the Church dealt with that harshly, as evidenced by the establishment of the Inquisition. Europe was the Church's domain for the better part of the last millennium.The Church takes its laws very seriously. What happened in Hawaii was beyond Church law, and not within the Church's domain, but, all the same, Christian missionaries preached against those same native customs to which you refer. Have you not seen the film Hawaii, nor read the book, by the same name, written by James Michener - upon which the film was based? Perhaps you should. On Saturday, April 5, 2014 1:40:45 PM UTC-4, Antonio Faria wrote: The incest taboo among siblings has been exempt among royalty of various cultures throughout history, one example being the royal Hawaiian families in fact it was encouraged they believe such unions produces superiors specimens. On Saturday, April 5, 2014 8:57:25 AM UTC-7, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote: Of course. And that's why you don't ever see a 1st degree connection getting married. Frankly, it's surprising to me 1st and 2nd degree was ever allowed. Maybe it was a way to generate more money by the church, so they allowed it? I'm assuming they had to pay a bigger fee for dispensation, but it's possible even poor people could get it free. I'm changing the subject to reflect this discussion. Look for the previous comments under the subject Help with baptism from Ponta Garca. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with baptism from Ponta Garca From: Cheri Mello gfsc...@gmail.com Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 8:49 am To: Azores Genealogy azo...@googlegroups.com I thought a brother marrying a sister was forbidden by law in most countries and considered incest? So what is incest in the Azores and Portugal? Cheri Mello -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com javascript:. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity
Marriage between first cousins has taken place more than once on my paternal line. One set of my great grandparents were first first cousins. In more recent generations in this same line, first cousin marriages have occurred with no apparent ill effects. I can cite one specific case where the two first cousins married and their son went on to get an advanced degree in finance. He subsequently married a non-cousin. His grandparents were both first cousins of mine. There's an old saying, when cousins marry, if the genes are good, you get geniuses, but if the genes are bad, you get idiots. John Vasconcelos On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 3:08 PM, p...@dholmes.com wrote: I suppose the logic in Hawaiian royalty was that they were superior to begin with, so marriage to another such superior person couldn't help but produce more superior offspring. But I have never once seen any example of royal marriages to siblings. I think in Catholic countries, they would never get approval from the Pope. Thank goodness for that, at least. It reminds me of the book I read last year about early Irish society where they permitted first and second cousins to marry, but caught a lot of flak from Rome because of it and it forced many changes about 1000 years ago in the Catholic church in Ireland. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity From: Antonio Faria antoniof1...@gmail.com Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 10:40 am To: azores@googlegroups.com The incest taboo among siblings has been exempt among royalty of various cultures throughout history, one example being the royal Hawaiian families in fact it was encouraged they believe such unions produces superiors specimens. On Saturday, April 5, 2014 8:57:25 AM UTC-7, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote: Of course. And that's why you don't ever see a 1st degree connection getting married. Frankly, it's surprising to me 1st and 2nd degree was ever allowed. Maybe it was a way to generate more money by the church, so they allowed it? I'm assuming they had to pay a bigger fee for dispensation, but it's possible even poor people could get it free. I'm changing the subject to reflect this discussion. Look for the previous comments under the subject Help with baptism from Ponta Garca. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with baptism from Ponta Garca From: Cheri Mello gfsc...@gmail.com Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 8:49 am To: Azores Genealogy azo...@googlegroups.com I thought a brother marrying a sister was forbidden by law in most countries and considered incest? So what is incest in the Azores and Portugal? Cheri Mello -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity
For what it's worth, as a comparison to what we see in the Azores, and especially in the smaller villages, I don't have any instances I've ever seen on my mother's Hungarian/Slovak side of cousins getting married. The villages were not huge, but still bigger than most Azorean villages. And so I guess they had a much easier time to find spouses who were unrelated. These were not big landowners, so property didn't seem to be much of a factor. On the other hand, another in-law from Hungary has noble lineage and her tree has many examples of cousins being married. It was clearly a huge factor of property.So it's something related to the social class and family wealth. Some of the more successful of my Pico ancestors have some descendants who married cousins related in up to three different ways. I'm sure most researchers have run across a couple related in something like the 2nd degree, and in the 3rd and 4th degree, but the one I have in mind was also related in another degree like maybe 3rd degree. And I have seen many examples of wealthy families on Terceira like this, as well.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: first degree of consanguinity From: Herb herbandj...@verizon.net Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 7:40 pm To: azores@googlegroups.com I have never seen a first degree but I have seen lots of 4th, 3rd and second. Need to keep a few things in mind though. During the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe about 40% of marriages were among cousins. During someone's lifetime they might have travelled 20-30 miles from their home so they didn't know a lot of people to marry. Marrying cousins was a way to keep lands and other property in the family name and also seen as a way to keep blood lines pure. There is even an old Portuguese folk song about marrying cousins. I will ask my 85 year old mother and post it here. Herb -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
