Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] First degree of consanguinity--two records Sao Jorge
I think Eloise Cadinha posted years ago about a straight 1st degree. Something like an uncle marrying a niece. The ones you posted are mixed, so it could be more like a granduncle-niece. In large families, sometimes they wind up being the same age (I've had an uncle-nephew and an aunt-niece in the same classroom in my teaching career. They function more like cousins. All the other teachers are baffled about the relationship, as they consider aunts and uncles much older). I believe it was Joao Ventura, the archivist, who mentioned in one of his speeches that the Catholic church only went up to 3rd degree (4th cousins). Today, I think they are only concerned up to the first cousin level. Someone would need to ask their parish priest. Hopefully, your priest knows you are into genealogy! Cheri On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 5:59 PM, Mary Bordi busybo...@gmail.com wrote: I ran across two records from 1909 Norte Grande, Sao Jorge that mention dispensations for first degree (primeira grau) consanguinity! As far as I know they are not in my line--I just thought they were interesting. I'm not looking for a translation but feel free to discuss if you are interested. (I hope my spelling is somewhere near correct...) Two records state the couple terem sido dispensados do primeiro grau mixto de segundo de consanguinidade colateral desigual. Record #1 on the left hand page: http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-C-1900-1911/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-C-1900-1911_item1/P82.html Record #6 on the right hand page: http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-C-1900-1911/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-C-1900-1911_item1/P86.html -- Another interesting nearby record is the marriage of the brother of the groom in record #1 to another cousin dispensados do segundo grau attingente a primeira de consanguinidade em linha collateral desigual. Record #9 on the left hand page: http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-C-1900-1911/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-C-1900-1911_item1/P89.html - As I said, I'm just posting as a matter of interest. I did not know that first degree was allowed. Also among the records is the marriage of a Joao de Mello Pires from Porto Judeu, Terceira, in case anyone is looking for him! Record starts bottom right: http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-C-1900-1911/SJR-VL-NORTEGRANDE-C-1900-1911_item1/P90.html When I see the record of a marriage or a death of someone from another island I always wonder if someone is looking for them! Mary -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. -- Cheri Mello Listowner, Azores-Gen Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] first degree of consanguinity
I've seen one 1st degree of consanguinity. I think Eloise sent it to me a long time ago. In my college courses I don't remember any society marrying siblings. At least in Western culture. Cleopatra married her brother. Isn't that ancient history? I don't remember. Our studies didn't go back that far. At any rate, Portugal allowed siblings to marry? On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 8:57 AM, p...@dholmes.com wrote: Of course. And that's why you don't ever see a 1st degree connection getting married. Frankly, it's surprising to me 1st and 2nd degree was ever allowed. Maybe it was a way to generate more money by the church, so they allowed it? I'm assuming they had to pay a bigger fee for dispensation, but it's possible even poor people could get it free. I'm changing the subject to reflect this discussion. Look for the previous comments under the subject Help with baptism from Ponta Garca. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with baptism from Ponta Garca From: Cheri Mello gfsche...@gmail.com Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 8:49 am To: Azores Genealogy azores@googlegroups.com I thought a brother marrying a sister was forbidden by law in most countries and considered incest? So what is incest in the Azores and Portugal? Cheri Mello -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. -- Cheri Mello Listowner, Azores-Gen Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] first degree of consanguinity
I won't believe that until I see it.I think it must have been 1st and 2nd mixed - uncle/niece.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] first degree of consanguinity From: Cheri Mello gfsche...@gmail.com Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 9:38 am To: Azores Genealogy azores@googlegroups.com I've seen one 1st degree of consanguinity. I think Eloise sent it to me a long time ago. In my college courses I don't remember any society marrying siblings. At least in Western culture. Cleopatra married her brother. Isn't that ancient history? I don't remember. Our studies didn't go back that far. At any rate, Portugal allowed siblings to marry? On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 8:57 AM, p...@dholmes.com wrote: Of course. And that's why you don't ever see a 1st degree connection getting married. Frankly, it's surprising to me 1st and 2nd degree was ever allowed. Maybe it was a way to generate more money by the church, so they allowed it? I'm assuming they had to pay a bigger fee for dispensation, but it's possible even poor people could get it free. I'm changing the subject to reflect this discussion. Look for the previous comments under the subject "Help with baptism from Ponta Garca."Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with baptism from Ponta Garca From: Cheri Mello gfsche...@gmail.com Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 8:49 am To: Azores Genealogy azores@googlegroups.com I thought a brother marrying a sister was forbidden by law in most countries and considered incest? So what is incest in the Azores and Portugal?Cheri Mello -- -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] first degree of consanguinity
Doug, I agree, that marriage of 1st degree consanguinity, includes Father/Daughter, Mother/Son, and Grandparents/Grandchildren, as well as siblings (not sure that the uncle/niece, aunt/nephew is 1st or 2nd), would be banned by the Church as incest - especially in conservative Portugal, and, the Azores. On Saturday, April 5, 2014 1:27:21 PM UTC-4, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote: I won't believe that until I see it. I think it must have been 1st and 2nd mixed - uncle/niece. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] first degree of consanguinity From: Cheri Mello gfsc...@gmail.com javascript: Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 9:38 am To: Azores Genealogy azo...@googlegroups.com javascript: I've seen one 1st degree of consanguinity. I think Eloise sent it to me a long time ago. In my college courses I don't remember any society marrying siblings. At least in Western culture. Cleopatra married her brother. Isn't that ancient history? I don't remember. Our studies didn't go back that far. At any rate, Portugal allowed siblings to marry? On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 8:57 AM, pi...@dholmes.com javascript: wrote: Of course. And that's why you don't ever see a 1st degree connection getting married. Frankly, it's surprising to me 1st and 2nd degree was ever allowed. Maybe it was a way to generate more money by the church, so they allowed it? I'm assuming they had to pay a bigger fee for dispensation, but it's possible even poor people could get it free. I'm changing the subject to reflect this discussion. Look for the previous comments under the subject Help with baptism from Ponta Garca. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with baptism from Ponta Garca From: Cheri Mello gfsc...@gmail.com javascript: Date: Sat, April 05, 2014 8:49 am To: Azores Genealogy azo...@googlegroups.com javascript: I thought a brother marrying a sister was forbidden by law in most countries and considered incest? So what is incest in the Azores and Portugal? Cheri Mello -- -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
