Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
> I'm a BBC senior manager; but posting personally as a fan of Backstage. > > It puts us (those that care about Backstage) in a really difficult position > if it's used to share information on ways to get around content-restrictions > on a BBC service. > > I don't want to see the end of the Backstage unmoderated mailing list. > Posting this type of information threatens its future. > > Please don't. Anywhere else. Just not here. As you wish: http://beebhack.bluwiki.com/ Created because I can't keep up with all the threads discussing iPlayer hacks on the various sites and forums. I've filled out quite a bit on the iPlayer already but it could do with more info and there are stubs for other BBC services there as well. I think I entirely misunderstood what the point of this mailing list was. I was encouraged to come here to discuss running the iPlayer on exotic platforms but now we're actually doing it it seems it's a taboo subject. Rather than try and work out the bizarre politics of this place I'll be writing my main discoveries regarding the iPlayer on the wiki, which is Free (in both regards). Laters, Iain - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
To play devils advocate: I don't think it's the politics. From what I understand through recent discussions on and off list, it's more to do with (as always) keeping rights' holders happy. I think that the actual BBC staff would love to hear the various hacks that people here come up with (be prepared for them checking your wiki), but when those hacks bypass content protection measures, it puts them in the awkward position of telling the rights' holders that iPlayer is secure, whilst at the same time hosting a list detailing how to get around that security. So go ahead and post iPlayer hacks on this list, just leave the various forms of DRM in place. I'm not saying I totally agree with this stance, just explaining it, and noting that I understand it. Vijay. On 18/03/2008, Iain Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Created because I can't keep up with all the threads discussing > iPlayer hacks on the various sites and forums. I've filled out quite a > bit on the iPlayer already but it could do with more info and there > are stubs for other BBC services there as well. > > I think I entirely misunderstood what the point of this mailing list > was. I was encouraged to come here to discuss running the iPlayer on > exotic platforms but now we're actually doing it it seems it's a taboo > subject. Rather than try and work out the bizarre politics of this > place I'll be writing my main discoveries regarding the iPlayer on the > wiki, which is Free (in both regards). > > Laters, > Iain > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please > visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial > list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ >
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 18/03/2008, Iain Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I'm a BBC senior manager; but posting personally as a fan of Backstage. > > > > It puts us (those that care about Backstage) in a really difficult > position > > if it's used to share information on ways to get around > content-restrictions > > on a BBC service. > > > > I don't want to see the end of the Backstage unmoderated mailing list. > > Posting this type of information threatens its future. > > > > Please don't. Anywhere else. Just not here. > > > As you wish: http://beebhack.bluwiki.com/ > > Created because I can't keep up with all the threads discussing > iPlayer hacks on the various sites and forums. I've filled out quite a > bit on the iPlayer already but it could do with more info and there > are stubs for other BBC services there as well. > > I think I entirely misunderstood what the point of this mailing list > was. I was encouraged to come here to discuss running the iPlayer on > exotic platforms but now we're actually doing it it seems it's a taboo > subject. Rather than try and work out the bizarre politics of this > place I'll be writing my main discoveries regarding the iPlayer on the > wiki, which is Free (in both regards). > > Laters, > > Iain > > Two scenarios: Scenario 1: Guy knocks on your door, walks in past you, urinates on your best rug on the floor, then hands you a note saying your house smells of piss and walks out. Scenario 2: Guy knocks on your door, walks in past you, hands you a note saying go this website to read a report on how someone urinating on your best rug can make your house smells of piss and walks out. Question: which scenario appeals to you? Note - remembering that the rug really tied the room together. -- Michael Walsh Mobile: +44-(0)771-2524200 Mobile: +353-(0)85-1278212 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.digitalrightsmanifesto.com Blog: http://digitalrightsmanifesto.wordpress.com
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
> Two scenarios: > > Scenario 1: > > Guy knocks on your door, walks in past you, urinates on your best rug on > the floor, then hands you a note saying your house smells of piss and walks > out. > > Scenario 2: > > Guy knocks on your door, walks in past you, hands you a note saying go > this website to read a report on how someone urinating on your best rug can > make your house smells of piss and walks out. > > Question: which scenario appeals to you? Note - remembering that the rug > really tied the room together. > > Aside from the Big Lebowski reference: What? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 18/03/2008, Iain Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm a BBC senior manager; but posting personally as a fan of Backstage. Intersting assertion. Makes me think > > It puts us (those that care about Backstage) in a really difficult position > > if it's used to share information on ways to get around content-restrictions > > on a BBC service. So to summerize; it makes the BBC line about "hackers cracking their way around the piracy prevention technology" difficult to maintain if > > I don't want to see the end of the Backstage unmoderated mailing list. I doubt many people on here would put up with a premoderated list, and for the bbc I imagine it might be financially crippling to employ someone to premoderate a High Volume mailing list like this. > > Posting this type of information threatens its future. If this does happen, one will be able to find details of what replacement list springs up at tdobson.net "The net treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore > > Please don't. Anywhere else. Just not here. So you are suggesting this list engages in Self-Censorship so that the BBC can give the impression that it knows that the iplayer DRM schemes are: a) broken b) pointless c) designed in a defective manner ;) > As you wish: http://beebhack.bluwiki.com/ I would be tempted to drop this all into bbc-backstage... > Created because I can't keep up with all the threads discussing > iPlayer hacks on the various sites and forums. I've filled out quite a > bit on the iPlayer already but it could do with more info and there > are stubs for other BBC services there as well. ...but centralized knowledge is also really useful and hunting down mailing list posts i know is annoying. > I think I entirely misunderstood what the point of this mailing list > was. I was encouraged to come here to discuss running the iPlayer on > exotic platforms but now we're actually doing it it seems it's a taboo > subject. Rather than try and work out the bizarre politics of this > place I'll be writing my main discoveries regarding the iPlayer on the > wiki, which is Free (in both regards). I think it would be good to let bbc-backstage know at regular intervals exactly what the status of the bbc-iplayer drm is. How broken is it at the moment? Czesc Tim P.S. I think removing people induvidually or in small groups from the list would be a very bad idea, don't you? -- tdobson.net If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Iain Wallace wrote: Aside from the Big Lebowski reference: What? I believe it's an analogy. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 18 Mar 2008, at 09:15, Iain Wallace wrote: As you wish: http://beebhack.bluwiki.com/ I think I entirely misunderstood what the point of this mailing list was. I was encouraged to come here to discuss running the iPlayer on exotic platforms but now we're actually doing it it seems it's a taboo subject. Rather than try and work out the bizarre politics of this place I'll be writing my main discoveries regarding the iPlayer on the wiki, which is Free (in both regards). Most of what is on that wiki should be on the Backstage site as documentation. There's not enough documentation on what's available and how it works. (Although to be fair I'm sure a lot of this isn't very well documented internally either ;-) However it was made very clear from the start that the only thing that those discussing iPlayer couldn't do was try to break any protections on the content. That's what is causing the problems on the list and the only thing on the wiki that is contentious. (All my personal opinion of course). Cheers Jonathan - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
[backstage] Re: iPlayer DRM is over?
On 14/03/2008, James Cridland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Of course I'm not advocating state censorship. Just trying to cut down the > internal debate about Backstage requiring pre-moderation, which as we know > will kill things. > > Not all senior managers understand it, y'know... Maybe you should explain it to them? Trying to remove information from the Internet tends to have opposite effect. Remember when someone tried to remove the HD-DVD encryption key from the internet[1], how may websites, emails, T-shirts etc. is that number on now? Remember recently a US court tried to take down wikileaks, any idea how may mirrors now hold those files? Oddly publicity of this information *increased* when people tried to have it removed. Would it not be better to invest in proper security? (A bit of free advise was provided earlier, however from what I have just read it appears you are making the same mistakes again, if your engineers are literate, go buy a book on security and look up the term "Replay Attack" ) Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Steve Jolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Iain Wallace wrote: > > Aside from the Big Lebowski reference: What? > > I believe it's an analogy. I got that it was an analogy, thank you. I don't really understand what the point of it was. I was invited onto this list by a member of Backstage staff who said that it was a good place to discuss the iPlayer and hacking it to work on exotic devices, and that's what I've done. I'm lost as to how this is analogous to knocking on someone's door and pissing on their carpet, regardless of how much I appreciate the work of the Cohen brothers. > However it was made very clear from the start that the only thing > that those discussing iPlayer couldn't do was try to break any > protections on the content. That's what is causing the problems on > the list and the only thing on the wiki that is contentious. I must have missed the "start". Iain - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Re: iPlayer DRM is over?
On Tuesday 18 March 2008 12:45:59 Andy wrote: > (A bit of free advise was provided earlier, however from what I have > just read it appears you are making the same mistakes again, if your > engineers are literate, go buy a book on security and look up the term > "Replay Attack" ) It strikes me as closer to reverse engineering to create interoperable clients myself, to be frank. After all, it's a publically funded service which people who have paid for it are trying to access - we've never stopped our audience building their own recievers - where possible - in the past. Indeed, for Digital Radio Mondiale (the other DRM :), it can be fairly common). Michael. (personal opinions only. other opinions are available) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Quoting Steve Jolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Iain Wallace wrote: Aside from the Big Lebowski reference: What? I believe it's an analogy. To what? :-) - Rob. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
[backstage] Google Summer of Code 2008
Hi, This just a short note to say that BBC Research has been accepted as a mentor organisation for Google Summer of Code again this year (third year!). Also Dirac applied seperately along with the Schroedinger project and as a result dirac/schroedinger is also a mentor organisation this year. As a result, if there's any students on the list who are interested in working on something that scratches their itch, and matches the goals of Kamaelia, Dirac, Schroedinger - or any other BBC open source project, please do get in touch. If you're a BBC person who happens to runs or works with a BBC open source project, and I don't know you and haven't reached you by any other mechanism and you're interested in mentoring a GSOC Project, please get in touch with me. Dirac/Schroedinger's list is here: http://www.diracvideo.org/wiki/GSoC2008Ideas Kamaelia's list is here: http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/SummerOfCode2008 If you have some interesting ideas for projects (with the caveat that they must fit with a BBC open source project) that you can't do for whatever reason, please let us know - we'll happily add that to the list of ideas. (Can't guarantee it'll get worked on for two reasons : 1) projects are proposed by students and accepted/rejected by orgs. 2) there's often many many more project proposals than slots) Bonus points given to project ideas that support ongoing BBC work :-) (or work you'd like to see the BBC do :) People can feel free to contact me off list. (Posting using home email because this'd bounce otherwise) For BBC people lurking on the list that don't generally post... * Got an idea you want explored ? * Want to see a particular library integrated into Kamaelia? (thereby making it usable with everything else) * Would you like to mentor a project over the summer ? (The first users of Kamaelia didn't tell us until several months after they'd completed their project, so this doesn't seem to odd to ask here :) * Do you run an existing BBC Open Source project and do you have some low hanging but interesting fruit you'd like someone to work on? * The ideas on the kamaelia website are currently just of interest to me [1] but I can think of many many more, and really interested in full system ideas at the moment. The presentation on the the ideas page also covers 3 relatively interesting systems. [1] They're also targetted in such a way to drop out a significant chunk of useful components along the way, all of which would be reusable. If so, please get in touch ASAP. I'll need your gmail account id. The more we put into GSOC, the more students get out of it and the more we all get out of this. Also, many hands make light work, etc :) Also, to be frank, I'd really like ideas of what you might think can be done if you combine a system that can have a built in webserver, with open GL, with SDL, Audio in, audio/video out, arbitrary transcoding muxing of DVB, Bit Torrent distribution, serving over multiple protocols (tcp/udp/multicast) all at once. (seriously, these can all be mixed and matched *pretty trivially* ) etc Due to being written in python this allows us to pull in most C libraries fairly easily, and if someone can write a stub application that achieves the core of their problem, we can turn it into a component that can be used with anything else. Due to some recent changes it'll also support multicore systems natively (ie use all the CPUs) with very light touch changes to top level code. (this is a bit experimental :) Have fun! Michael. -- Michael Sparks, Snr Research Engineer, BBC Future Media Research & Innovation, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kamaelia Project Lead, http://kamaelia.sf.net/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Google Summer of Code 2008
On Tuesday 18 March 2008 13:43:02 Michael wrote: > This just a short note to say that BBC Research has been accepted as a > mentor organisation for Google Summer of Code again this year (third > year!). Also Dirac applied seperately along with the Schroedinger project > and as a result dirac/schroedinger is also a mentor organisation this year. Oh, just a note - for those that don't realise what Google Summer of Code is - it's where google will happily pay someone in (or about to enter) higher education for work over the summer on open source projects. The results are also open source. Links: http://code.google.com/soc/2008/ http://code.google.com/soc/2008/faqs.html Specifically Google pay students $4500 over the course of the summer for around 3 months full time work. Google also pay mentor orgs a small amount per mentor, in the past the BBC's waived this for various good reasons. The whole idea is to get students involved in Open Source/Free Software during their vacations, which they might otherwise spend in a Summer job. For more information, please see the website. Overall it ends up being a 3 way win normally. If you have any q's feel free to mail me. Michael. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
People may be interested in this blog post from Ashley: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/03/bbc_iplayer_on_iphone_upd ate_1.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Iain Wallace Sent: 18 March 2008 12:59 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Steve Jolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Iain Wallace wrote: > > Aside from the Big Lebowski reference: What? > > I believe it's an analogy. I got that it was an analogy, thank you. I don't really understand what the point of it was. I was invited onto this list by a member of Backstage staff who said that it was a good place to discuss the iPlayer and hacking it to work on exotic devices, and that's what I've done. I'm lost as to how this is analogous to knocking on someone's door and pissing on their carpet, regardless of how much I appreciate the work of the Cohen brothers. > However it was made very clear from the start that the only thing > that those discussing iPlayer couldn't do was try to break any > protections on the content. That's what is causing the problems on > the list and the only thing on the wiki that is contentious. I must have missed the "start". Iain - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 18 Mar 2008, at 12:58, Iain Wallace wrote: However it was made very clear from the start that the only thing that those discussing iPlayer couldn't do was try to break any protections on the content. That's what is causing the problems on the list and the only thing on the wiki that is contentious. I must have missed the "start". I was thinking of this post from Ian at the beginning of January, specifically point 3: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/msg07132.html Cheers Jonathan - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Nick cheers for the link please do you think you could get ashley to cast his eye over the post that Andy Halsall dropped onto the list at the start of this whole thing. (the epc long thing that ian frreser said he would try and get some answers to, but still hasnt) -ashley doesn't really seem to understand very much about the issues laid out in this letter and has really failed to adress any of the issues... I'll try commenting on the blog, but i suspect you have more influence. cheers Tim On 18/03/2008, Nick Reynolds-FM&T <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > People may be interested in this blog post from Ashley: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/03/bbc_iplayer_on_iphone_upd > ate_1.html > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Iain Wallace > Sent: 18 March 2008 12:59 > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk > Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Steve Jolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Iain Wallace wrote: > > > Aside from the Big Lebowski reference: What? > > > > I believe it's an analogy. > > I got that it was an analogy, thank you. I don't really understand what > the point of it was. > > I was invited onto this list by a member of Backstage staff who said > that it was a good place to discuss the iPlayer and hacking it to work > on exotic devices, and that's what I've done. > > I'm lost as to how this is analogous to knocking on someone's door and > pissing on their carpet, regardless of how much I appreciate the work of > the Cohen brothers. > > > However it was made very clear from the start that the only thing > > that those discussing iPlayer couldn't do was try to break any > > protections on the content. That's what is causing the problems on > > the list and the only thing on the wiki that is contentious. > > I must have missed the "start". > > Iain > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, > please visit > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial list archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ > > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please > visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial list archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ > -- www.dobo.urandom.co.uk If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Could you send me the link to the right post please. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Dobson Sent: 18 March 2008 15:41 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? Nick cheers for the link please do you think you could get ashley to cast his eye over the post that Andy Halsall dropped onto the list at the start of this whole thing. (the epc long thing that ian frreser said he would try and get some answers to, but still hasnt) -ashley doesn't really seem to understand very much about the issues laid out in this letter and has really failed to adress any of the issues... I'll try commenting on the blog, but i suspect you have more influence. cheers Tim On 18/03/2008, Nick Reynolds-FM&T <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > People may be interested in this blog post from Ashley: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/03/bbc_iplayer_on_iphone_u > pd > ate_1.html > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Iain Wallace > Sent: 18 March 2008 12:59 > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk > Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Steve Jolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Iain Wallace wrote: > > > Aside from the Big Lebowski reference: What? > > > > I believe it's an analogy. > > I got that it was an analogy, thank you. I don't really understand > what the point of it was. > > I was invited onto this list by a member of Backstage staff who said > that it was a good place to discuss the iPlayer and hacking it to work > on exotic devices, and that's what I've done. > > I'm lost as to how this is analogous to knocking on someone's door and > pissing on their carpet, regardless of how much I appreciate the work > of the Cohen brothers. > > > However it was made very clear from the start that the only thing > > that those discussing iPlayer couldn't do was try to break any > > protections on the content. That's what is causing the problems on > > the list and the only thing on the wiki that is contentious. > > I must have missed the "start". > > Iain > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, > please visit > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial list archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ > > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, > please visit > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial list archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ > -- www.dobo.urandom.co.uk If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
It seems that Mr Highfield is another person who thinks that being able to change your user agent makes you an evil h4x0r. If he persona in real life is the same as that BBC PR dept. projects I feel really sorry for those of you on this list he line manages, or indeed any of you who need to talk to him on a technical level. I too have had managers who seem to go out of their way to deliberately misunderstand issues. Vijay. On 18/03/2008, Nick Reynolds-FM&T <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > People may be interested in this blog post from Ashley: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/03/bbc_iplayer_on_iphone_upd > ate_1.html > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Iain Wallace > Sent: 18 March 2008 12:59 > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk > Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Steve Jolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Iain Wallace wrote: > > > Aside from the Big Lebowski reference: What? > > > > I believe it's an analogy. > > I got that it was an analogy, thank you. I don't really understand what > the point of it was. > > I was invited onto this list by a member of Backstage staff who said > that it was a good place to discuss the iPlayer and hacking it to work > on exotic devices, and that's what I've done. > > I'm lost as to how this is analogous to knocking on someone's door and > pissing on their carpet, regardless of how much I appreciate the work of > the Cohen brothers. > > > However it was made very clear from the start that the only thing > > that those discussing iPlayer couldn't do was try to break any > > protections on the content. That's what is causing the problems on > > the list and the only thing on the wiki that is contentious. > > I must have missed the "start". > > Iain > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, > please visit > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial list archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ > > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please > visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial > list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ >
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:03 PM, Nick Reynolds-FM&T <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > People may be interested in this blog post from Ashley: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/03/bbc_iplayer_on_iphone_upd > ate_1.html > > FTA: "In fact, more than most: the vast majority. Something like just one twentieth of one percent have accessed a BBC iPlayer programme via a hack." The whole point about the recent update is that the server really can't tell if the client is an iPhone or not, so where does that stat come from? I'd also like to see numbers regarding actual iPhone visits Vs the number of people that actually own an iPhone. I would just love for that ratio to be greater than 1. Good post though. It really does see like the general consensus from the Beeb is that they recognise this sort of inquisitive hackery isn't malicious or harmful, which was always what I thought which just makes the warning post I got last week from James Cridland seem really odd. I don't understand why getting media in a loggable, traceable manner over the internet is somehow more dangerous than getting it from a nationwide broadcast (at a much higher quality). I probably wouldn't be bothering with this at all if I could get a digital TV reception in my house - I'd just be storing the shows to HDD on a PVR like everyone else. I look forward to the day when this will seem as ludicrous to BBC management as it does to everyone else right now. Cheers, Iain - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Iain Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > FTA: > "In fact, more than most: the vast majority. Something like just one > twentieth of one percent have accessed a BBC iPlayer programme via a > hack." > > The whole point about the recent update is that the server really > can't tell if the client is an iPhone or not, so where does that stat > come from? Perhaps they are tracking download speeds and guessing from that? Will the mp4 be pulled at a much faster rate by curl/wget than it would have been by an iphone that downloads it incrementally for realtime viewing? -- Ian Partridge City of Southampton Orchestra - http://www.csorchestra.org Next concert 5th April - Elgar: Enigma Variations - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 05:46:57PM +, Ian Partridge wrote: > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Iain Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > FTA: > > "In fact, more than most: the vast majority. Something like just one > > twentieth of one percent have accessed a BBC iPlayer programme via a > > hack." > > > > The whole point about the recent update is that the server really > > can't tell if the client is an iPhone or not, so where does that stat > > come from? > > Perhaps they are tracking download speeds and guessing from that? Will > the mp4 be pulled at a much faster rate by curl/wget than it would > have been by an iphone that downloads it incrementally for realtime > viewing? > If I was trying to detect this stuff I'd be looking for people with abnormal behaviour such as clients that grab an html page and then the mp4 without grabbing any other collateral such as style sheets, images and so on. Can't be hard to figure out given the logs. Cheers, Al. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 18/03/2008, Alan Pope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If I was trying to detect this stuff I'd be looking for people with abnormal > behaviour such as clients that grab an html page and then the mp4 without > grabbing any other collateral such as style sheets, images and so on. May flag people using caching proxies. Proxies may not cache the HTML as it changes more frequently and it's highly unlikely they cache the MP4 stream. They would cache images and style sheets though. > Cheers, > Al Way to confuse me! I had to check the To address to make sure this was backstage and not Ubuntu-UK ;) > Perhaps they are tracking download speeds and guessing from that? Someone suggested speed limitng wget to make it look more iPhone-ish. Most probably pull it full speed Incidently I am trying to work out how to *stream* as I thought it might be good to get something running on Android but it will take me a long while (if ever, why is it no matter how much you know it is never enough?). Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Andy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 18/03/2008, Alan Pope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If I was trying to detect this stuff I'd be looking for people with > abnormal > > behaviour such as clients that grab an html page and then the mp4 without > > grabbing any other collateral such as style sheets, images and so on. > > May flag people using caching proxies. > Proxies may not cache the HTML as it changes more frequently and it's > highly unlikely they cache the MP4 stream. They would cache images and > style sheets though. > This is true. I don't think you could reliably differentiate between an iPhone and a script pretending to be an iPhone. > > Perhaps they are tracking download speeds and guessing from that? > > Someone suggested speed limitng wget to make it look more iPhone-ish. > Most probably pull it full speed > *maybe*, but considering the interface only lets you view video if you're viewing from a wifi connection and not the phone's data connection (just a javascript check) then the only difference is, as suggested Quicktime limiting itself or pulling down a chunk of data at a time which is entirely possible but doesn't seem very likely. > Incidently I am trying to work out how to *stream* as I thought it > might be good to get something running on Android but it will take me > a long while (if ever, why is it no matter how much you know it is > never enough?). > I don't really know much about Android. Does it have its own native video player? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 18/03/2008, Iain Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > *maybe*, but considering the interface only lets you view video if > you're viewing from a wifi connection and not the phone's data > connection (just a javascript check) then the only difference is, as > suggested Quicktime limiting itself or pulling down a chunk of data at > a time which is entirely possible but doesn't seem very likely. The download scripts let you download an entire iPlayer MP4 in a matter of minutes or seconds. AFAIK, Quicktime on the iPhone streams the programme gradually, with a read-ahead buffer of a few megabytes (which is much kinder to the BBC's servers!) Hence if a programme was downloaded in 5 minutes but the show lasts 30 minutes, it was probably leeched! -dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
