RE: Science and the Future of Religion
Khazeh wrote: My dear Brother Brent, May I openly thank you for your postings You know, one of the things that happened in Baha'i history is that the Baha'is in Ishqabad, who had been attacked by Muslim mobs, spoke up at the trials of the Muslims and requested the court to reduce their punishment. Baha'u'llah praised this in His Writings. And I just want to say that in this modern age, when a doctor speaks so nicely towards a lawyer, well, this is the promised day when the lion and the lamb share the same pasture, and we know the day is near when we'll all be holding hands and singing together It's a small world, after all! A very lovely posting, thank you dear Khazeh. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Science and the Future of Religion
Susan, what a beautiful concept you describe below. Your pre-modern mind was always more open to miracles than mine, would that mine were more like yours! Susan wrote: I mentioned the Asharites who shared this perception. They saw existence as made up of atoms, but these atoms were not particles as we currently see them. They were more like mathematical points on a line, the will of God being the only thing that gave them any continuity whatsoever such that if God's active involvement in the universe were to cease for a moment all existence would cease to be. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Science and the Future of Religion
Brent, Thanks for your kind comments (and for listening to me so thoughtfully). I am meditating upon your thoughts as I work this week. Hopefully I will digest my frustrations and get over them. ;-))) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
As Susan Maneck is fond of quoting, He doeth whatsoever He willeth. Huh? I thought I was fond of She doeth whatsoever She willeth. ;-} __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Susan, At 11:05 AM 12/13/2004, you wrote: Huh? I thought I was fond of She doeth whatsoever She willeth. ;-} I wonder if Terry Culhane is reading this. ;-) Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 12:00 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: I'm not sure why you are assuming He doesth whatsoever He willeth would preclude God's will from being constant. If we really do believe that God can do what He wants then why wouldn't that include the possibility of having a constant will? I am not making a prior judgement about whether God's Will is constant in any particular situation. I am assuming that God *can* change His mind. Or a Perennial Philosophy or a Last Prophet or whatever. He doeth whatsover he willeth. One of the problems with the philosophia perennis is its assumption of *essential* constancy. But does that really mean the definition of murder is really flexible? Of course. You don't think so? I've always thought that on some level people still realize that plea-bargaining is cynical and dishonest in some respects. It involves a loss of integrity in exchange for convenience, efficiency on the government side and managing risk on the accused person's side. I think it is more complex than that. (I used to teach criminology.) In many cases, prosecutors will intentionally charge a person with a higher offense in order to pressure the defendant, and her or his attorney, to agree to a plea. Prosecuting attorneys often socially construct an alleged crime to suit the evidentiary requirements. It isn't cut and dry. However, aside from that issue, murder is simply a term for whatever legislators, as interpreted by judges (and juries), in a particular jurisdiction (country, province, state, etc.) decide should be murder. I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that christo-logy or in general theo-logy is not a matter of ontology but more a matter of what the tongue chooses to say or not say, so it is more a matter of practice? Not general theology. I was referring specifically to christology and prophetology. No. There is the famous (So I thought) fable of the blind men Yes, that is what I had in mind. The story is found in the literatures of Jainism, Buddhism, and Sufism. And what I would suggest is that the apparent disagreements among different religions might be resolved in a similar way and at the end of things we might be allowed to see and everything will make sense. IMO, seeing truth is another way of referring to the study of the revealed Word (the words of the Prophets). Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:00:24 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 01:41 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: Okay, but what I'm saying is that one can say God *can* change His mind, but chose not to, at least not in an ultimate sense, hence the perennial philosophy. Mark: Most proponents of the perennial philosophy I have read would not agree with what you wrote, including the traditionalists and Huxley. They *begin* with the assumption, the foundationalism, that the same basic truths are repeated time and again, and they then proceed, deductively, to draw their conclusions from that assumption. Gilberto: I'm not convinced that what you wrote contradicts or precludes the possibility of what I wrote above. Gilberto: The Perennial philosophy doesn't imply putting presumtuous limits on God. The disagreement isn't about what God can do but over what God does do. Mark: Some of them may make that distinction, but, if so, I am unaware of it. You would need to show me an example. However, all the perennialists I have read assume that the perennial philosophy reflects the timeless Nature, or Essence, of God. Mark: One of the problems with the philosophia perennis is its assumption of *essential* constancy. Gilberto: I'm not sure why this is problematic. Mark: Because they fail to distinguish between God's Will and His Essence. Gilberto: So you are saying that both God's will and God's Essence can change? Gilberto: Right. I think that being actually guilty of murder in some moral sense is a very very different question from whether one is convicted guilty of murder in a court of law. Mark: Okay, but what is some moral sense? Are you referring to religious law? Gilberto: It could be religious or rooted in some ethical philosophy. Something other than just what the defense attorney, prosecuting attorney and a judge decide in a cigar smoke filled room. Gilberto: Innocent people are convicted all the time. Guilty people are let off on technicalities. That's why I don't think that plea bargaining or other such behavior is a good argument for the flexibilitiy of the definition of murder. Mark: I am not arguing for it. I am saying that definitions of murder are often grounded in opportunism, politics, and language games. Gilberto: On some level there is a distinciton between a good faith attempt to define murder, and the kinds of motivated arranements which happen in court cases. Gilberto: Ok. But my question is why you would say there is more than one elephant. Mark: It goes back to what I suggested before about each Revelation being a distinct paradigm. Gilberto: But the paradigm isn't the elephant, the paradigm is just the blind man's attempt to touch the elephant and guess at what it's really like. There is one unknowable essence, one elephant. Gliberto Different religions are looking at the one God in different ways. Mark: Yes, or, perhaps, as in the case of the Buddhisms, not focusing on God at all. gilberto: Sure: Gilberto: How do you see the analogy working? Mark: I am a perspectivist. I believe that there are many possible Baha'i faiths (small f) in the context of the Baha'i Faith. I wrote: IMO, seeing truth is another way of referring to the study of the revealed Word (the words of the Prophets). You replied: What you are saying doesn't make sense to me. Although I'm not sure how to pinpoint where the disagreement is. lol. A lot of people don't agree with me. You are not alone. Gilberto: I'm not surprised THAT we disagree, what I'm just trying to figure out is where we disagree. Some things you say sound more correct than what I've heard from other Bahais but you don't seem to accept the kinds of implications I would expect. Peace gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:21:47 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/13/2004 12:14:59 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I forget if I've talked to you about this before. I would have thought that the elephant is God. Scott: I don't think we get to see GOD other than what the Prophets show us of Him. Hmm... but then that's kind of why we are the blind men who don't see the elephant directly. Moreover, in both Islam and Christianity the beatific vision of God is promised. I'm not sure what you mean below. Rumi's fable of the elephant and the blind men already comes with a particular context and meaning. I'm not sure why you are changing the meaning. And especially if in the Bahai faith there is one God, one religion, one humanity, why would there be more than one elephant? Is there something wrong with there being one elephant? Peace Gilberto So the continuity of the messages is that it is always an elephant, though the particular elephant this time may vary in color or shape of ears, or length of tail or length of tusks, each arguably is a perfect elephant when it is in view but the perfection lies within the elephant, and we should appreciate the perfection rather than just any elephant that might not possess that perfection at a particular time. Regards, Scott__ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 04:08 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: I'm not convinced that what you wrote contradicts or precludes the possibility of what I wrote above. If I understood you correctly, you suggested that (at least some?) proponents of perennialism might distinguish between actuality and necessity. In other words, even though the perennial philosophy has characterized certain (all?) traditions, movements, or (fill in the blank), you believe it unnecessary that it should continue as such in the future. I pointed out that every perennialist whose works I have read appeared to believe in the identity of the philosophia perennis with God's Nature (i.e., Platonism), and that, in this context, it has been regarded as invariable. So you are saying that both God's will and God's Essence can change? I don't know about God's Essence, but I think God and His Messengers *can* change Their minds or wills. On some level there is a distinciton between a good faith attempt to define murder, and the kinds of motivated arranements which happen in court cases. I agree. But the paradigm isn't the elephant, the paradigm is just the blind man's attempt to touch the elephant and guess at what it's really like. There is one unknowable essence, one elephant. Well, *I* was using the elephant as an illustration for a paradigm (a divine Revelation). I suppose one *could* use the same metaphor for the divine Essence. I'm not surprised THAT we disagree, what I'm just trying to figure out is where we disagree. Some things you say sound more correct than what I've heard from other Bahais but you don't seem to accept the kinds of implications I would expect. Okay then, a couple of questions: Which of my ideas appear correct to you (and why)? And what other implications of my ideas would you expect? Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/13/2004 8:52:59 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Affirming everything so as to not offend, so I was surprisedthat you seemed to flat out reject the Trinity. In the Christian sense Baha`i's do not believe in the "Trinity" much either. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Brent: Fulfill. Not co-opt. Gilberto: So what do you think co-opt means? Hi Gilberto, Please allow me to jump in here. I think it might be useful to look at how Christ fulfilled the law of Moses: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18 It seems that you are running into the same issue that came up way back then. Christ abrogated many of the social laws of Moses--eg. the Sabbath; however, the fulfillment was on the spiritual level--Christ's teachings moved forward the process of human spiritual growth. The believers could actually begin to understand on a deeper level and apply the laws with a level of meaning and understanding above rote obedience. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 08:52 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: Speaking very loosely and generally and probably incorrectly, it seemed like you had a sincere healthy respect for religious diversity, not as absolutist as other Bahais I've come across. But then at the same time you seem deadset against perennialism. As a sociologist of religion, I respect many religions (socially constructed systems of beliefs and praxes, focused on the sacred/extraordinary, which unite people into moral/normative communities) on **their own** terms. Perennialism (Platonic syncretism) is, in my view, a type of ideational colonialism. Although many proponents of perennialism *claim* to respect other religions (as they define them), I see their approaches more as domination than respect. (I have similar views about the approaches of some Baha'is to various other religions - which resemble perennialism.) Also in other contexts, I've seen Bahais try to reconcile the Quranic criticisms of Christian theology with the Biblical statements of Christian theology and they seemed to want to have their cake and eat it too. Affirming everything so as to not offend, so I was surprised that you seemed to flat out reject the Trinity. The subject of the relationship between God, His Prophets, and the particular Holy Spirits of those Prophets has been discussed by `Abdu'l-Baha. His views bear little resemblance to either the Western/Eastern or the Oriental (Monophysite) constructions of the Trinity. Also the positive comments about Crowley and LaVey were surprising as well. I still find hermeticism, Thelema, and other such systems to be fascinating. Mark A. Foster * Portal: http://MarkFoster.net CompuServe: http://boards.M.Foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
