RE: Limits on promoting ideas
At 16:24 + 5/26/05, Jim Habegger wrote: At 0:01 + 5/26/05, Jim Habegger wrote: I'm saying that if that's what she thinks, even though you and I agree she's wrong, it would not be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions for her to try to find people whose ideas the members of the Universal House of Justice might take more seriously, and present her case to them. Don, you said: "And you don't think that would be contrary to the statement I pointed out?" "Any actions, however, which savour of factionalism, of mobilizing pressure, or of stirring up contention among the Baha'is would be an inadmissible intrusion of the spirit of partisan politics into Baha'i- community life." Not the way I'm imagining it. There might be something in the way I'm imagining it, that didn't get through. The way I'm imagining it, the person is not trying to create a faction, or mobilize pressure, or stir up contention among the Baha'is. Perhaps in theory; in practice it appears to be dancing on the edge of a very slippery slope. The only one who is capable of maintaining their balance in such a situation is one who possesses true humility. I don't know about you, but the only time I figure I ever even come close is during the last second before I fall asleep. And you can imagine how much influence I have at that point. Speaking of which, it's time I entered that state. It's been a long day and I'm sore and tired. Don C -- He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
"In case there was any misunderstanding, I used the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice, as an example in my discussion of limits to promoting ideas, because I thought it would be a good example of a topic that some people might think the House of Justice has tried to repress" Dear Jim, Are you aware of the circumstances behind the House's letter to the NSA of New Zealand? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
http://bahai-library.com/forum3/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
Jim, >The examples I gave, in my first post in this thread, were responses that some other people gave, when I >asked the same question in the Baha'i Online Library forum. How does one become a member of the Baha'i Online Library forum? Thanks, Dean Betts -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.17 - Release Date: 5/25/05 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: UHJ membership and women
Dear Susan B., I'm glad to know that you found encouragement in my posts. Thank you for telling me. In case there was any misunderstanding, I used the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice, as an example in my discussion of limits to promoting ideas, because I thought it would be a good example of a topic that some people might think the House of Justice has tried to repress, not because I think it's a burning issue for anyone. I have no reason to think it's a burning issue for anyone, except as part of some defamation campaigns against the House of Justice. It certainly is not a burning issue for me. If you write an article, maybe you can help me reconcile some public statements and promises, from Baha'i institutions and agencies, with our exclusion of women from the House of Justice. Here is my reasoning: According to statements from Baha'i Institutions and agencies: 1. Equality of women and men, includes equality of rights. "The realities of things have been revealed in this radiant century, and that which is true must come to the surface. Among these realities is the principle of the equality of man and woman -- equal rights and prerogatives in all things appertaining to humanity." (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 399) "He made woman respected by commanding that all women be educated, that there be no difference in the education of the two sexes and that man and woman share the same rights." (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 365) 2. Membership on a spiritual assembly (house of justice) is part of the equality of rights. Exclusion of women from a house of justice is an obstacle to the enjoyment of complete equality of rights. "Full rights have been accorded to Bah� women residing in the cradle of the Faith, to participate in the membership of both national and local Bah� Spiritual Assemblies, removing thereby the last remaining obstacle to the enjoyment of complete equality of rights in the conduct of the administrative affairs of the Persian Bah� Community." (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 402) "Regarding the position of the Bah� women in India and Burma, and their future collaboration with the men in the administrative work of the Cause, I feel that the time is now ripe that those women who have already conformed to the prevailing custom in India and Burma by discarding the veil should not only be given the right to vote for the election of their local and national representatives, but should themselves be eligible to the membership of all Bah� Assemblies throughout India and Burma, be they local or national." (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 401) "In the local as well as the national Houses of Justice, however, women have the full right of membership." (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 369) 3. Equality includes participation in all branches of the administration of society, at all levels including the highest. In the Dispensation of Bah�'ll� women are advancing side by side with men. There is no area or instance where they will lag behind: they have equal rights with men, and will enter, in the future, into all branches of the administration of society. Such will be their elevation that, in every area of endeavour, they will occupy the highest levels in the human world... (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 392) We agree that women must be fully involved at all levels of decision-making . . ." (Baha'i International Community, 1990 Feb 27, Equality in Political Participation Decision-Making) "We agree that women must be fully involved at all levels of decision-making, not only because it is just, but because, in the Bah� view, the full participation of women will hasten social and political progress and lead to the establishment of world peace." (Baha'i International Community, 1990 Feb 27, Equality in >Political Participation Decision-Making) "For its part, the Bah� International Community assures the Commission that it will continue to promote the equality of women and men as an essential prerequisite for peace and social progress, working to ensure that women will be prepared to participate as full partners with men in the council chambers of the world and will become the greatest promoters of international peace and arbitration." (Baha'i International Community, 1990 Feb 27, Equality in >Political Participation Decision-Making) 4. Full and equal participation in the affairs of the world, including the arena of laws and politics, will lead to the establishment of world peace. "So it will come to pass that when women participate fully and equally in the affairs of the world, when they enter confidently and capably the great arena of laws and politics, war will cease;..." (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 393) "We agree that women must be ful
Re: UHJ membership and women
Limits on promoting ideas http://list.jccc.net:8080/read/messages?id=119783 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: UHJ membership and women
Would someone please give the original subject name of the thread referred to below? 1) First, I want to thank Jim and others who have contributed to this thread -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.17 - Release Date: 5/25/05 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
UHJ membership and women
Dear friends, Allah'u'Abha! I have been following the discussions regarding the membership of our supreme body, the Universal House of Justice. I remember these sorts of concerns that were raised over a decade ago on the old Talisman listserve. As a Baha'i who is also a woman and a feminist (and who is the daughter and granddaughter of women who fought for women's rights in the United States--my beloved grandmother as a suffragette and my dear mother who always had us observe the birthdays of important American women like Juliette Lowe and Eleanor Roosevelt), I would like to offer a few thoughts about this issue regarding the gendered make-up of the Universal House of Justice. 1) First, I want to thank Jim and others who have contributed to this thread, for otherwise I would not have known that this is still a concern among a number of Baha'is. For many years, I have considered addressing this issue in the form of a publishable essay. Perhaps this is the time to do so. 2) Second, as a woman who understands the struggles of women intimately, familially, culturally, and historically, these debates about the House of Justice weigh heavily upon my heart. I wonder, how is it that we Baha'is cannot differentiate between sexism, misogyny, and female oppression, on the one hand, and a legitimate and wise distinction that is gendered but not sexist, on the other? Are we evaluating Baha'i structures and ways in light of the secular values of the day? Does not Bah'u'llah advise us, "Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men" (Baha'u'llah, _Gleanings_, 198). 3) Throughout time, there have been diversely gendered roles and relations that have varied from people to people, culture to culture, and time to time. In most cultures, women have been severely devalued and marginalized, but this has not been the case in all cultures. In those cultures where women have been valued (generally in agrarian-based and geographically rooted cultures) and where gender relations have been based on equitable principles, such equality in no wise has signified sameness. Even where women and men have lived in balance, there have still been certain divisions of roles and labor based on gender. Here difference has not meant a hierarchized inequality. When the friends criticize the fact that our beloved Universal House of Justice is made up solely of men, are they not familiar with how certain cultures have recognized the differences between men and women in ways that are neither prejudicial nor unjust? 4) Yes, in the metaphor of the bird, right wings and left wings need to be perfectly balanced for a perfectly true flight, but we must never forget that right wings and left wings are not identical. They are very similar with very similar functions, but they have functions that differ and in some respects are mirror images of each other. 5) It is important that we clearly see the difference between appearances and actualities. Wittgenstein wrote that a boundary line may be drawn and appear to be exclusionary for one perspective. He then explains that if the rules of the game are, in fact, different, that line may have a very different meaning that is, in no wise, exclusionary. . . . but this requires efforts on our parts to come to new ways of understanding. 6) I really feel that to understand the gendered make-up of the Universal House of Justice, it is necessary to study those past cultures that have manifested gender equality to see what such balance has looked like in the past. Perhaps this is an area where I can be of assistance. I'll see if I can craft such an essay by the end of the summer. 7) Finally, as a feminist, I do want to note that I find it a bit annoying to have Baha'i men riding in on their chargers like white knights to save the weak and feeble damsel in distress on this issue. As a rule, I have found more men to have difficulties with this issue than women. Most women are pretty secure in the very high stations that are given to us and our respective responsibilities in the world as the first educators of the children, as primarily responsible for the moral training of the children, as the first line of defense for the health of our families, as responsible in having our own careers and being knowledgeable in our local community, schools, state, national, and international affairs, and being those who log innumerable hours in Baha'i community life and other forms of social service in our communities. Maybe the men, instead of talking about so many issues, could spend more of their time helping us out with the children, the schools, the home, etc., etc. And anyone who would devalue women's responsibilities in the education of children (and how THAT affects EVERYTHING ELSE in the world--scientific discoveries, crime rates, viol
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
At 0:01 + 5/26/05, Jim Habegger wrote: > >I'm saying that if that's what she thinks, even >though you and I agree she's wrong, it would not >be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and >prescriptions for her to try to find people >whose ideas the members of the Universal House >of Justice might take more seriously, and >present her case to them. > Don, you said: "And you don't think that would be contrary to the statement I pointed out?" "Any actions, however, which savour of factionalism, of mobilizing pressure, or of stirring up contention among the Baha'is would be an inadmissible intrusion of the spirit of partisan politics into Baha'i� community life." Not the way I'm imagining it. There might be something in the way I'm imagining it, that didn't get through. The way I'm imagining it, the person is not trying to create a faction, or mobilize pressure, or stir up contention among the Baha'is. I do see a possibility that if she does as I'm suggesting, it might have one or more of those effects, whether she means for it to or not. If she sees that possibility, and is not careful to avoid it, then I would say that she's not acting within the spirit of what Baha'u'llah has prescribed. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
