RE: Request you help
On Behalf Of Gilberto
Simpson
Sent: 20 July 2005 00:45
To: Baha'i Studies
So is it still true that "I am all the
prophets" is not found in any
Sunni collections?
Peace
Gilberto
Dear Gilberto
The transmitter of the Hadith
is Anas ibn Maalik (whose dates preceded Sunni / Shi’ih conflict and
discord)
"Anas ibn Malik said, one day the
Messenger of God, peace be upon him, offered his morning prayer and ascended
the pulpit. His face was resplendent as the full moon. We asked the Messenger
of God to interpret the verse of the Qur'an: "... they are with those unto
whom Allah hath shown favour of the Prophets and the saints and the martyrs and
the righteous." [4:69] He said, (ama-an-nabiyyoona fa-ana ...) By the term "Prophets" I am meant, by the term "saints" Ali ibn Abi Talib is meant, by
"martyrs" my uncle Hamzah is meant and the "righteous" are
my daughter Fatimah and her two sons Hasan and Husayn."
And the Book Riaz ul Janaan by Fazlullah
ibn Mahmuud does not give an indication of being a Shi’ih Book…
May God increase your faith and certitude in
the Revelation
I have no doubt He can although no earthly
power can
H. Qur’an
14:20
Wama thalika AAala Allahi biAAazeezin
SHER ALI And that is not at all difficult for God.
KHALIFA This is not too difficult for GOD.
ARBERRY that is surely no great matter for God.
PALMER nor is that hard for God!
Wama thalika AAala Allahi biAAazeezin
Ever humbly kf
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Re: Request you help
So is it still true that "I am all the prophets" is not found in any
Sunni collections?
Peace
Gilberto
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RE: Request you help
Dear
Susan
The hadith
** I am all the Prophets**=in Arabic amma an Nabiyyoon fa-ana
Is found
in a number of Hadith literature
INCLUDING
the Bih.aar ul AnwAr.
Because
the Bih.Ar was on line I used that source
1]
http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar/behar25/a2.html
Thus in interpreting Qur'an 4:69
Yusuf Ali
004:069
*
ALL WHO OBEY GOD AND THE APOSTLE ARE IN THE COMPANY OF THOSE ON WHOM IS
THE GRACE OF GOD, - OF THE PROPHETS (WHO TEACH), THE SINCERE (LOVERS OF TRUTH),
THE WITNESSES (WHO TESTIFY), AND THE RIGHTEOUS (WHO DO GOOD): AH! WHAT A
BEAUTIFUL FELLOWSHIP!
Waman yutiAAi Allaha waalrrasoola faola-ika maAAa allatheena anAAama
Allahu AAalayhim mina alnnabiyyeena waalssiddeeqeena waalshshuhada-i
waalssaliheena wahasuna ola-ika rafeeqan
The Prophet, God's salutations be upon Him said:
Amman
-Nabiyyuun fa-ana [I am all *the Prophets* mentioned in the above verse]
And ‘Ali is all the **s.iddeeqoon** [all the sincere lovers]
H.amza is all the Witnesses [Martyrs] in the above verse
And s.Aaliheen [the righteous ones refers to my grandsons H.asan and
Husayn.
http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar/behar25/a2.html
and then scroll down the page to number 30 paragraph 30.
So I pointed out to dear Gilberto that it is not the case that Baha'is attribute
this hadith to the Prophet. It is there more than a thousand years ago
2]
The same verse 4:69 is again interpreted here
http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar/behar24/a4.html
here it says that Tusi recorded this hadith that I AM ALL THE PROPHETS = Amman -Nabiyyuun
fa-ana in His Book mis.bAh. Al anwaar
Sunni sources add that the Prophet said
Amma an Nabiyyuun fa’ana [I am all the Prophets]
The S.iddeeqoon [the righteous ones refers to Abu Bakr]
3] According to Sharh.uz Ziyaarat [recorded before Bahá’u’lláh
and the Bab]
The above hadith = I am all the Prophets was uttered by the Prophet
Muhammad and Anas b. Maalik first narrated it
Volume 1 of Sharh. [the most famous magisterial Work of the Immortal
Ah.sai’ [chapter entitled sulaalat an Nabiyyiin in Volume 1 of SZ
4] Another well known source in my possession is the Tafseer e S.aafi by
Mulla Muh.sin Faiz. E Kashaani [who also
records the same Hadith with the same words]
5] Another source is Kashkuul e Bah.raani quoting the same
6] The exalted Bab quotes the same hadith in His Panj Sha’n [Five
Modes of Divine Utterance]
Page 31 line 8
With best wishes
Ps
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/055.sbt.html#0
04.055.583
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard God’s Apostle saying, "I am the nearest of all the
people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and
there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus)."
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 652:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am
the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are
paternal brothers; THEIR MOTHERS ARE DIFFERENT, BUT THEIR RELIGION IS
ONE."
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From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Maneck
Sent: 19 July 2005 21:26
To: Baha'i
Studies
Subject: RE: Request you help
Hajir,
Can you translate the hadith in question
and give us some idea of who the isnad goes back to?
warmest, Susan
-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Hajir Moghaddam
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:01
PM
To: Baha'i
Studies
Subject: Re: Request you help
there
is no reason based in Quran or hadith to think that Muhammad
said "I am all the prophets."
It
is clearly in the Hadith of the Shi'a.
http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar/behar25/a2.html
Are
you saying that you don't believe the Shi'a hadith is authentic?
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RE: Request you help
"And I wouldn't insist but it is totally plausible that a few sounds
were mixed up."
Dear Gilberto,
It would be just as plausible that part of the NT was mistakenly conveyed
into Arabic and that therefore Arabs *thought* it said that. But Comforter
fits the passage whereas Praised does not.
"There are ALOT of irregularities with the Greek NT
text. There are many variant readings throughout."
Yes, there are. But I know of no manuscripts which contain that particular
variation, do you?
> Sorry. I fail to see the distinction.
"Because in the case of Islam, the Quran says Jesus announces the
coming of Ahmad. And Muslims can actually point to specific passages
in the Bible which point to the coming of the Paracletos... which
sounds like Periclytos... which is Ahmad in Greek."
Which suggests they misunderstood the passage, not that it was actually
there.
I don't find the fact that if you play with a few letters you can make it
look like Jesus said this very persuasive.
warmest, Susan
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RE: Request you help
Hajir,
Can
you translate the hadith in question and give us some idea of who the isnad
goes back to?
warmest, Susan
-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Hajir
MoghaddamSent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:01 PMTo: Baha'i
StudiesSubject: Re: Request you help
there is no reason based in Quran or hadith to think that
Muhammadsaid "I am all the prophets."
It is clearly in the Hadith of the Shi'a.
http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar/behar25/a2.html
Are you saying that you don't believe the Shi'a hadith is
authentic?
Start
your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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Re: Request you help
there is no reason based in Quran or hadith to think that Muhammadsaid "I am all the prophets."
It is clearly in the Hadith of the Shi'a.
http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar/behar25/a2.html
Are you saying that you don't believe the Shi'a hadith is authentic?
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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Re: Request you help
On 7/19/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Praised is "Pariclytos".
>
> Dear Gilberto,
>
> But the word found in the Greek NT is Paracletos not Pariclytos'.
>
And I wouldn't insist but it is totally plausible that a few sounds
were mixed up. There are ALOT of irregularities with the Greek NT
text. There are many variant readings throughout. Words are mixed up
and changed throughout.
> "And I think it is totally bizzare that you
> are expressing skepticism on this point because Bahai sources
> (including a letter from Shoghi Effendi) agree that this passage in
> the New Testament refers to Muhammad's revelation."
> Yes, Baha'is consider this passage to be both a reference to Muhammad and
> Baha'u'llah. I don't think you will find any reference in Baha'i Writings
> connecting it to the reference to Ahmad found in the Qur'an.
>
> "It is still the case that Muslim use of the Bible is more concrete,
> specific, literal, more convincing than Bahai use of Islamic sources
> in the examples being discussed."
>
> Sorry. I fail to see the distinction.
Because in the case of Islam, the Quran says Jesus announces the
coming of Ahmad. And Muslims can actually point to specific passages
in the Bible which point to the coming of the Paracletos... which
sounds like Periclytos... which is Ahmad in Greek.
In the case of the Bahai faith, Bahaullah claims that Muhammad said "I
am the prophets" but there is no passage in the Quran or hadith where
Muhammad is said to have said "I am all the prophets"..
That's the difference.
Bahais can claim on faith that Bahaullah is right in what he said, and
that is fine. I'm not arguing with that here. But the claim can't be
connected to Islamic sources as Muslim claims can be connected to
previous scriptures.
Peace
Gilberto
>
> warmest, Susan
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: Request you help
"Praised is "Pariclytos".
Dear Gilberto,
But the word found in the Greek NT is Paracletos not Pariclytos'.
"And I think it is totally bizzare that you
are expressing skepticism on this point because Bahai sources
(including a letter from Shoghi Effendi) agree that this passage in
the New Testament refers to Muhammad's revelation."
Yes, Baha'is consider this passage to be both a reference to Muhammad and
Baha'u'llah. I don't think you will find any reference in Baha'i Writings
connecting it to the reference to Ahmad found in the Qur'an.
"It is still the case that Muslim use of the Bible is more concrete,
specific, literal, more convincing than Bahai use of Islamic sources
in the examples being discussed."
Sorry. I fail to see the distinction.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Request you help
On 7/19/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But the meaning of "Ahmad" is the same as the
> meaning "Pericletos" (praised) and in any case Jesus probably spoke in
> Aramaic anyway.
> Dear Gilberto,
> Paraclete means Comforter, not Praised. Muslims have theorized that there
> are some misplaced letter which would make it Praised, but there is no
> evidence for this.
Praised is "Pariclytos". And I think it is totally bizzare that you
are expressing skepticism on this point because Bahai sources
(including a letter from Shoghi Effendi) agree that this passage in
the New Testament refers to Muhammad's revelation.
It is still the case that Muslim use of the Bible is more concrete,
specific, literal, more convincing than Bahai use of Islamic sources
in the examples being discussed.
Peace
Gilberto
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RE: Request you help
"Is there any credible evidence for the authenticity of the Gospel of
Barnabas?
Dear Iskandar,
It all depends on what you mean by 'authentic.' Much of the material in the
canonical books of the Bible are not necessarily written by the person they
are credited to, but we don't call them forgeries.
However, much of the material of the Gospel of Barnabas clearly goes back no
further than the 14th century, though I'm not persuaded Muslims were
responsible for its composition. The question is *all* of it that late? It
is very difficult to find anything on either side of this question which is
not buried in polemics. It is mostly fundamentalists, both Christian and
Muslims who are involved in this debate, as in the case of the URLs you
showed us. The most balanced and scholarly article I could find on the web
is this one: http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/Blackhirst_Barnabas.html
I gather from this article that there are some scholars who argue that the
Gospel of Barnabas may have *some* authentic materials which was taken from
an earlier Gospel by that name. However, no one has ever found even a
fragment of that earlier Gospel; we just know that some of the early church
faters referred to a document by that name. The author of the above article
suggests that the doctrines contained in the Gospel of Barnabas may go back
to a Carmelite sect whose Jewish, Christian, and Islamic elements were woven
into a syncretistic cult of Elijan prophetology which claims to go back to
the Essenes. These monks seemed to have retained Ebionite elements of
Christianity until their conversion to Catholicism during the Crusades. The
Gospel of Barnabas may have been written to preserve their beliefs.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Request you help
On 7/19/05, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto, you wrote:
>
> And personally what I would say is that to me it didn't seem like the
> Quran was claiming what Khazeh was attributing to it. But whether we
> are looking at what the Quran actually says on this point, or at what
> Muslims tend to claim, I think botht of them are actually still more
> concrete, more literally true, more supportable than the Bahai claims
> about "I am the prophets".
>
> Dear Gilberto,
>
> I can only guess that the difficulty in making the "stretch" so to speak,
> from one Manifestation of God to the Next has to do with the natural human
> tendency to view His Revelation as precluding more from Him Who is the
> All-Bounteous, and to choose verses that substantiate that view.
Perhaps. But I've been involved in alot of these back-and-forth
Bahai-Muslim polemics. I'm not trying to get into a huge discussion
about such a big general question. I'm just trying to focus on a very
specific comparison.
[much deleted]
> The point of all of this is that once one accepts a Manifestation of God
> then one accepts everything He pronounces as true, including what He
> utters regarding all previous and subsequent Manifestations and events.
Yes, I agree 100%. If you start with the assumption that Bahaullah
really is the Manifestation of God for this age, then the Bahai faith
is true and Bahais clearly "win" any kind of debate or argument which
begins from that assumption.
All I'm saying is that if you don't begin with that assumption, then
there is no reason based in Quran or hadith to think that Muhammad
said "I am all the prophets."
Peace
Gilberto
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RE: Request you help
But the meaning of "Ahmad" is the same as the
meaning "Pericletos" (praised) and in any case Jesus probably spoke in
Aramaic anyway.
Dear Gilberto,
Paraclete means Comforter, not Praised. Muslims have theorized that there
are some misplaced letter which would make it Praised, but there is no
evidence for this.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Request you help
--And personally what I would say is that to me it didn't seem like theQuran was claiming what Khazeh was attributing to it. But whether weare looking at what the Quran actually says on this point, or at whatMuslims tend to claim, I think botht of them are actually still moreconcrete, more literally true, more supportable than the Bahai claimsabout "I am the prophets".--
Did I miss the paragraph in which Khazeh said that there is a passage in the Qur'an "I am all the prophets"?
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Re: Request you help
Hi all,
I thought Gilberto was saying the same thing Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan (sited in Gleanings):
"In terms of the rest of your argument, there are certainly passages inhadith and Quran which talk about a certain degree of closenessbetween the prophets, and between Muhammad and particular prophets."
Gilberto,
What do you think Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan that is not reconcilable with the hadith and the Qur'an?
"I'm not sure that their meanings are necessarily the same aseverything implie[d] by Bahais when they attribute to Muhammad thestatement "I am all the prophets"."
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Re: Request you help
Gilberto, you wrote:
And personally what I would say is that to me it didn't seem like the
Quran was claiming what Khazeh was attributing to it. But whether we
are looking at what the Quran actually says on this point, or at what
Muslims tend to claim, I think botht of them are actually still more
concrete, more literally true, more supportable than the Bahai claims
about "I am the prophets".
Dear Gilberto,
I can only guess that the difficulty in making the "stretch" so to speak,
from one Manifestation of God to the Next has to do with the natural human
tendency to view His Revelation as precluding more from Him Who is the
All-Bounteous, and to choose verses that substantiate that view. Clearly the
Christians were expected to believe in a new Revelation, even after they
were told not to:
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you
than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other
gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.(Romans)
There is precedent for a "new" Revelation appearing, notwithstanding
statements from all others,except the Messenger, Prophet or Manifestation
Himself, that no new Revelation will appear.
"And haply, if they believe not in this new revelation, thou wilt slay
thyself, on their very footsteps, out of vexation." (The Qur'an (Rodwell
tr), Sura 18:6 - The Cave)
Haply thou wilt grieve thyself to death for sorrow after them, if they
believe not in this new revelation.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 18;6 - The Cave)
And, there are indications that Another will appear; and that if the Qur'an
is not accepted; that those who reject It will nave difficulty with the
Next.
77:50 In what other revelation after this will they believe? (The Qur'an
(Rodwell tr), Sura 77 - The Sent)
On this point, Yusuf Ali seems much more explicit than Rodwell.
47. Ah woe, that Day, to the Rejecters of Truth!
48. And when it is said to them, "Prostrate yourselves!" They do not so.
49. Ah woe, that Day, to the Rejecters of truth!
50. Then what Message, after that, will they believe in?
One must continually seek.
And whoso maketh efforts for us, in our ways will we guide them: for
God is assuredly with those who do righeous deeds. (The Qur'an (Rodwell tr),
Sura 29:69 - The Spider)
The point of all of this is that once one accepts a Manifestation of God
then one accepts everything He pronounces as true, including what He utters
regarding all previous and subsequent Manifestations and events. As the most
recent Revelation is the most recent Word of God and is to be followed.
May the blessings of God rain upon you throughout eternity.
Richard.
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Re: Request you help
I don't claim its authentic. I was just using it as an example for a
very specific point.
-Gilberto
On 7/19/05, Iskandar Hai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is there any credible evidence for the authenticity of the Gospel of
> Barnabas?
>
> My understanding is that the consensus of the scholarly community is
> that it's a fake, a medieval Moorish forgery. Unreliable and
> inauthentic.
>
> http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/Gilchrist/barnabas.htm
>
> http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/barnabas.htm
>
>
>
>
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Re: Request you help
On 7/19/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think botht of them are actually still more
> concrete, more literally true, more supportable than the Bahai claims
> about "I am the prophets".
> Dear Gilberto,
> I don't see the difference. While Muslims may have associated the verses
> regarding the Paraclete with Muhammad the word "Ahmad" does not appear
> there.
Just as Jesus (as) didn't really say "Let he who is without sin cast
the first stone" and Muhammad (Saaws) didn't really say "There is no
god but God". In other words, because we are talking about two
different languages. But the meaning of "Ahmad" is the same as the
meaning "Pericletos" (praised) and in any case Jesus probably spoke in
Aramaic anyway.
So apart from the fact that different languages are involved. Jesus
really did literally say that Ahmad would come after him.
(And Bahai writings actually agree about this point)
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/LANZ/lanz-32.html
>From Shoghi Effendi
No. 7. References in the Bible to "Mt. Paran" and "Paraclete" refer to
Muhammad's Revelation.
http://www.entrybytroops.org/revelation10.html
The Christians of today are like the Jews who didn't recognize Jesus
as their Messiah, and they are like the Christians of the past who
didn't recognize Muhammad as the Comforter (Paraclete) of John 14. The
original word was "Ahmad" and it was translated as "comforter." This
was a prophecy for Muhammad. Likewise, the Muslims didn't recognize
the Bab and Baha'u'llah, because of the indoctrination of their
clergy.
Peace
Gilberto
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Re: Request you help
Is there any credible evidence for the authenticity of the Gospel of
Barnabas?
My understanding is that the consensus of the scholarly community is
that it's a fake, a medieval Moorish forgery. Unreliable and
inauthentic.
http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/Gilchrist/barnabas.htm
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/barnabas.htm
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RE: Request you help
I think botht of them are actually still more
concrete, more literally true, more supportable than the Bahai claims
about "I am the prophets".
Dear Gilberto,
I don't see the difference. While Muslims may have associated the verses
regarding the Paraclete with Muhammad the word "Ahmad" does not appear
there. Sure you can say Jesus said it whether it occurs in the existing
Gospels, but we can say Muhammad said it whether it occurs in the existing
hadith. What's the difference?
warmest, Susan
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Re: Request you help
On 7/19/05, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto wrote
>
> The Islamic claims about the previous scriptures seem more concrete
> than the claims you are making on this particular point.
>
> Perhaps the Faith may be in agreement, to some degree, with the above
> statement Gilberto. However, in these days, as "Islamic" too often connotes
> claims which are not substantiated by the Qur'an; I believe it would be more
> accurate to refer to "the Qur'an" rather than to "Islamic claims".
I don't know if it was unclear. I was just trying to make a very very
particular statement. Comparing the Bahai claims that Muhammad (saaws)
said "I am all the prophets" and Muslim claims (maybe in the Quran,
maybe not) that the Bible prophecies the coming of Muhammad (saaws).
And personally what I would say is that to me it didn't seem like the
Quran was claiming what Khazeh was attributing to it. But whether we
are looking at what the Quran actually says on this point, or at what
Muslims tend to claim, I think botht of them are actually still more
concrete, more literally true, more supportable than the Bahai claims
about "I am the prophets".
Peace
Gilberto.
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