RE: Interesting thread
Shoghi Effendi said that the Qur'an is an absolutely authenticated repository of the Word of God, whereas it is only those portions of the Gospels referenced in the Baha'i scriptures which are authenticated. Dear Mark, I don't recall him saying that only those portions of the Gospel's referred to in the Writings were authenticated. Could you show us the quote? It doesn't make much sense given the sweeping endorsement given to the Gospels in the Iqan. So here is the million-dollar question: What does authenticated mean? And what does *absolutely* authenticated mean? And here is where the issue of it being a letter written on behalf of the Guardian and not the Guardian's own words comes into play. Can we place too much weight on the diction? warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
Susan: You tend to erase so much of the previous discussion and focus on isolated points to such a degree that it is no longer clear what the point of the discussion was. On 10/14/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Paul's words make up more of the New Testament than anyone else's (even Jesus). Yes, it does. But Paul doesn't talk about the life of Jesus much. You have to go the Gospels for that. The point is that the current NT was formed by the group of Christians who broadly accepted Paul's authority and understanding of Jesus' mission. But there were other groups besides them who identified themselves as Christians and they had radically different theologies. Calling the first group Pauline is just a convenient label to distinguish them from other branches. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/15/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: [mentioned Quran, non-canonical Gospels, Josephus, Talmud, heretical sources] Dear Gilberto, I'm talking about historical sources. I would be surprised if there were non-Christian historians who viewed the NT gospels as straightforward historical accounts of the events of Jesus life, but then totally rejected Josephus, or the non-canonical Gospels. As for non-canonical Gospels, only the Gospel of Thomas is any where near contemporary. There are certainly many scholars who would question whether the Biblical gospels are contemporary. Josephus is conspicously silent about Jesus, There are references to Jesus in editions to Josephus. There may also be quesitons of whether Christian editors later inserted them. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
I would be surprised if there were non-Christian historians who viewed the NT gospels as straightforward historical accounts of the events of Jesus life, Dear Gilberto, I am not suggesting they are 'straighforward historical accounts.' In fact they are sacred narratives. But they are the best historical accounts we have of the life of Jesus. but then totally rejected Josephus, or the non-canonical Gospels. I didn't *totally* reject the non-canonical Gospels. In fact, I admitted the value of St. Thomas' Gospels. The historical value of the others if questionable. As for Josephus, he summarizes Jesus' life in a single paragraph. It so much reinforces what is in the Gospels without adding anything to it that some have suggested it is an interpolation. warmest, Susan As for non-canonical Gospels, only the Gospel of Thomas is any where near contemporary. There are certainly many scholars who would question whether the Biblical gospels are contemporary. Josephus is conspicously silent about Jesus, There are references to Jesus in editions to Josephus. There may also be quesitons of whether Christian editors later inserted them. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Authenticity of the Old and New Testaments
These are all extracts taken from a memorandum of the Research Department to the Universal House of Justice dated 14 December 1987. Brent ...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bah's, is that what has been quoted by Bah'u'llh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate. (From a letter dated January 23, 1944 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer) The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances. (From a previously untranslated Tablet of Baha'u'llah) ...the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses). (From a previously untranslated Tablet of Baha'u'llah) When 'Abdu'l-Bah states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet. (From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated 11 February 1944 to an individual believer) We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bah' writings. (From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated 4 July 1947 to an individual believer) You ask for elucidation of the statement made on behalf of the Guardian in this letter of 11 February 1944, When 'Abdu'l-Bah states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet. Is it not clear that what Shoghi Effendi means here is that we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bah'u'llh, that the words and phrases attributed to Moses and Christ in the Old and New Testaments are Their exact words, but that, in view of the general principle enunciated by Bah'u'llh in the Kitb-i-qn that God's Revelation is under His care and protection, we can be confident that the essence, or essential elements, of what these two Manifestations of God intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in these two Books? (From a letter on behalf of the Universal House of Justice dated 19 July 1981 to an individual believer) ...The Bah's believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bah'u'llh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words. (From a letter dated 9 August 1984 to an individual believer) The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/15/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: So here is the million-dollar question: What does authenticated mean? And what does *absolutely* authenticated mean? And here is where the issue of it being a letter written on behalf of the Guardian and not the Guardian's own words comes into play. Can we place too much weight on the diction? I agree that you have a valid concern but I'm not sure how far that takes you. No matter if you wanted to substitute some synonyms here and there, it seems pretty clear that the Bible is given some kind of qualified/limited approval while the Quran is spoken of in different, and higher terms. If the Quran is picked apart by higher criticism then the distinction between the Bible and the Quran would disappear, which clearly violates the intention of the Guardian's words. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
As for non-canonical Gospels, only the Gospel of Thomas is any where near contemporary.
There are certainly many scholars who would question whether theBiblical gospels are contemporary.Dear Gilberto,
I think what Susan means is that only the Gospel of Thomas is
contemporary with the other Gospels, not contemporary with Jesus
Himself.
Ben
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Re: Interesting thread
I agree that you have a valid concern but I'm not sure how far that takes you. No matter if you wanted to substitute some synonyms here and there, it seems pretty clear that the Bible is given some kind of qualified/limited approval while the Quran is spoken of in different, and higher terms. Susan Gilberto, You're both missing my point. Let's say the Quran is wholly authentic. This is not a problem for me as a Baha'i because even though the Bayan is wholly authentic, the Aqdas was still revealed. Therefore, questions over authenticity of the Bible is not the *reason* for the revelation of the Quran, since the question of authenticity was *obviously* not the reason for the revelations of the Bayan and Aqdas. Hajir The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Sanctified Imam Rid.a [the 8th Imam quotes the Bible]
Gilberto, At 12:32 PM 10/14/2005, you wrote: I don't necessarily have the same understanding as most Muslims. I would say that the Quran and sunnah provide certain parameters for how Muslims should understand the Bible, but within those parameters a large amount of variation is possible. Okay. As I understand it, the original idea was perversion of doctrine. Perversion of the texts (intentionally) was a later innovation. In terms of the New Testament, for me, the question is what books should have been canonized in the first place. Or more precisely, out of the many different Christian groups which had different scriptures, which one best represents Jesus' actual teachings. And the folks associated with the Jesus Seminar have been looking at that issue for many years. However, if we are asking which books should have been incorporated into the Christian literature, I don't think it can be answered by comparing various Christian mss. to the Qur'an, the Baha'i Writings, or to some other sets of ideas. Unfortunately, that is precisely what some people have done with the Gospel of Barnabas. They have accepted it without consideration to its dubious authenticity. (Of course, it would be apologetically advantageous to both Muslims and Baha'is.) In the popular literature, one also sometimes finds that people accept the Nag Hammadi tractates, not because there is evidence that one or more of these books has greater historical validity than certain others in the NT, but because the content (Gnosticism, etc.) appeals to, and confirms, the sensibilities of that particular writer. I would say some errors actually are more radical than that. If the Torah was a revelation given to Moses, then the Documentary hypothesis, which is very widely accepted in the circles of Biblical scholarship implies some serious problems with naively equating the first five books of the Bible with the Torah. Yes, but that doesn't tell us whether the content reflects the teachings of Moses. Another significant issue would be the difference in the Catholic and Protestant canons. Two major groups of Christians have substantially different Bibles. And on top of that, they have different versions of Esther, Jeremiah, and Daniel. That's not just forgetting a word or two, or substituting a word for its synonym. I wouldn't say substantially different. About the only difference I know of is that most Protestants accord only an apocryphal status to the Roman Catholic deuterocanonical books. On the other hand, neither Roman Catholics nor Protestants see those books in the same light as the rest of the biblical literature. Since Roman Catholics center authority in the Papacy, the issue is simply not as important to them as it is to those Protestants and neo-Protestants (e.g., the Jehovah's Witnesses) who claim to accept sola scriptura. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
I think what Susan means is that only the Gospel of Thomas is contemporary with the other Gospels, not contemporary with Jesus Himself. Correct. None of the Gospels are contemporary with Jesus, but the canonical ones are closest to it. Only the Gospel of Thomas is thought to be nearly as old. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Interesting thread
No matter if you wanted to substitute some synonyms here and there, it seems pretty clear that the Bible is given some kind of qualified/limited approval while the Quran is spoken of in different, and higher terms. Yes, I'm not arguing that point. If the Quran is picked apart by higher criticism then the distinction between the Bible and the Quran would disappear, which clearly violates the intention of the Guardian's words. Not necessarily. Nor do I think a scholar can avoid applying methods to one scripture they would not apply to another. But I think at the end of the day we will find that the Qur'an still has a single author. The same can never be said for the Bible. That doesn't mean we won't find any errors in transmission whatsoever. As I said, I don't think that is true even of our own scriptures. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I didn't *totally* reject the non-canonical Gospels. In fact, I admitted thevalue of St. Thomas' Gospels. The historical value of the others ifquestionable. As for Josephus, he summarizes Jesus' life in a singleparagraph. It so much reinforces what is in the Gospels without addinganything to it that some have suggested it is an interpolation.
Dear Susan,
It certain could be a later addition to the text; but, I have seen it advanced with some skill that Josephus was using contemporary Christian tracts as a "source" for information about which he had little direct knowledge (since he had been living in Rome atthe time of the history unfolding). It was not the custom to provide citation for such sources in the scholarship of Josephus' time. Therefore the material could be from Josephus' pen in fact, but tract material nonetheless.
Regards,
Scott
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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RE: Interesting thread
Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:"If the Quran is picked apart by higher criticism then the distinctionbetween the Bible and the Quran would disappear, which clearlyviolates the intention of the Guardian's words."Not necessarily. Nor do I think a scholar can avoid applying methods to onescripture they would not apply to another. But I think at the end of the daywe will find that the Qur'an still has a single author. The same can neverbe said for the Bible. That doesn't mean we won't find any errors intransmission whatsoever. As I said, I don't think that is true even of ourown scriptures.warmest, Susan
Thank you, Susan. That is my point as well. We are GUARANTEED that Muhammed is the single author of the Qur'an - it was His recitation that was recorded and no one else's. SO it is purely His and bears the warrant of His voice alone. Thus the Qur'an is "authentic" without doubt.
However, the recension of Uthman or earlier recensions MIGHT contain slips in transmission. This does not invalidate the authority of the words contained because they are to be considered the words of Muhammed. The Bible, on the other hand, does not bear that warrant. It is the voice of many authors, and each separate author includes the possibility of inaccuracy in transmission.
This possibility exists with our own writings as well, though it is limited by the fact that Baha`u'llah and Abd'ul Baha routinely inspected the documents for error. Where this does not occur (some of Abd'ul Baha's lectures - Shoghi Effendi's letters written on behalf of himself by others, etc) we do not have that warrant.
Regards,
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Re: The Sanctified Imam Rid.a [the 8th Imam quotes the Bible]
On 10/15/05, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 12:32 PM 10/14/2005, you wrote: I don't necessarily have the same understanding as most Muslims. I would say that the Quran and sunnah provide certain parameters for how Muslims should understand the Bible, but within those parameters a large amount of variation is possible. Mark: Okay. As I understand it, the original idea was perversion of doctrine. Perversion of the texts (intentionally) was a later innovation. Gilberto: I would say no. Even in the Quran there is a condemnation against those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah [2:79] And there are hadith which allude to the same thing: Narrated Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you! (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461) There is another hadith (which I don't have at hand this moment) where Umar (ra) is reading from the Torah of that time, and prophet expresses slight disapproval because it has been corrupted, while he brings the revelation pure and fresh. Gilberto: In terms of the New Testament, for me, the question is what books should have been canonized in the first place. Or more precisely, out of the many different Christian groups which had different scriptures, which one best represents Jesus' actual teachings. Mark: And the folks associated with the Jesus Seminar have been looking at that issue for many years. However, if we are asking which books should have been incorporated into the Christian literature, I don't think it can be answered by comparing various Christian mss. to the Qur'an, the Baha'i Writings, or to some other sets of ideas. Unfortunately, that is precisely what some people have done with the Gospel of Barnabas. They have accepted it without consideration to its dubious authenticity. (Of course, it would be apologetically advantageous to both Muslims and Baha'is.) I think Barnabas is a seperate issue. Even I can see that there is questionable stuff in Barnabas and it seems very possible or even likely that it is a much later medieval forgery. So in some sense mentioning Barnabas is a straw dog. I'm talking about looking at the groups which are definitely older. And I'm not sure how Bahais could be expected to respond to Barnabas. It wouldn't necessarily be the same as Muslims. Yes, Barnabas clearly has Jesus making prophecies of Muhammad (saaaws) by name, but if I remember properly it also has Jesus warning his followers against Paul by name. Mark: In the popular literature, one also sometimes finds that people accept the Nag Hammadi tractates, not because there is evidence that one or more of these books has greater historical validity than certain others in the NT, but because the content (Gnosticism, etc.) appeals to, and confirms, the sensibilities of that particular writer. Gilberto: Sure but it would be naive to think that this doesn't happen in the other direction either now. Or that it didn't happen in the beginning when the canon was being chosen. Gilberto: I would say some errors actually are more radical than that. If the Torah was a revelation given to Moses, then the Documentary hypothesis, which is very widely accepted in the circles of Biblical scholarship implies some serious problems with naively equating the first five books of the Bible with the Torah. Mark: Yes, but that doesn't tell us whether the content reflects the teachings of Moses. I'm not sure what you mean. The point is that if only a fraction of the Torah came from Moses, and the rest of it was put together be other authors centuries after Moses then that's pretty much what I would describe as corruption. It doesn't mean that Moses would have hated it, but it does mean that one can't naively assume that everything in the Penteteuch reflects what Moses actually taught. Gilberto: Another significant issue would be the difference in the Catholic and Protestant canons. Two major groups of Christians have substantially different Bibles. And on top of that, they have different versions of Esther, Jeremiah, and Daniel. That's not just forgetting a word or two, or substituting a word for its synonym. Mark: I wouldn't say substantially different. About the only difference I know of is that most Protestants accord only an
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/15/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that you have a valid concern but I'm not sure how far that takes you. No matter if you wanted to substitute some synonyms here and there, it seems pretty clear that the Bible is given some kind of qualified/limited approval while the Quran is spoken of in different, and higher terms. Susan Gilberto, You're both missing my point. Gilberto: I think part of the difficulty is that we aren't necessarily talking to you all the time. In the above I was specifically talking to Susan, not responding to you. Haji: Let's say the Quran is wholly authentic. This is not a problem for me as a Baha'i because even though the Bayan is wholly authentic, the Aqdas was still revealed. Therefore, questions over authenticity of the Bible is not the *reason* for the revelation of the Quran, since the question of authenticity was *obviously* not the reason for the revelations of the Bayan and Aqdas. There is a serious logical problem in the above which I've noticed elsewhwere. Religions are all different from one another and have specific situations and histories. And there are things which apply to one religion which don't apply to other religions. So if you want to prove something about the Bible you need to study the Bible specifically and where it came from and how it was put together. The Quran is a different book, with a different history. It was put together in a different way. So is the Bayan. So is the Aqdas. So just because the Aqdas might be well documented in terms of its origins, that doesn't mean the Bible is. For example, and here is a suprising thing if you stop to think about it, *several* books of the Bible are actually written anonymously and we have no idea who really wrote them from a historical perspective. That's amazing when you think about it. Someone just has a book and they don't even know who wrote it, but they just assume this anonymous note came from God. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/15/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No matter if you wanted to substitute some synonyms here and there, it seems pretty clear that the Bible is given some kind of qualified/limited approval while the Quran is spoken of in different, and higher terms. Gilberto: Yes, I'm not arguing that point. Gilberto: If the Quran is picked apart by higher criticism then the distinction between the Bible and the Quran would disappear, which clearly violates the intention of the Guardian's words. Susan: Not necessarily. Nor do I think a scholar can avoid applying methods to one scripture they would not apply to another. Gilberto: Then perhaps I'm being unclear. I'm not mainly thinking about methods, but I'm thinking about what conclusions are posssible for a Bahai to adopt. Susan: But I think at the end of the day we will find that the Qur'an still has a single author. The same can never be said for the Bible. That doesn't mean we won't find any errors in transmission whatsoever. As I said, I don't think that is true even of our own scriptures. So what is the difference being made by the Guardian between the Quran and the Bahai writings on the one hand, and the Bible on the other? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/15/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I didn't *totally* reject the non-canonical Gospels. In fact, I admitted the value of St. Thomas' Gospels. The historical value of the others if questionable. As for Josephus, he summarizes Jesus' life in a single paragraph. It so much reinforces what is in the Gospels without adding anything to it that some have suggested it is an interpolation. Dear Susan, It certain could be a later addition to the text; but, I have seen it advanced with some skill that Josephus was using contemporary Christian tracts as a source for information about which he had little direct knowledge (since he had been living in Rome atthe time of the history unfolding). It was not the custom to provide citation for such sources in the scholarship of Josephus' time. Therefore the material could be from Josephus' pen in fact, but tract material nonetheless. There are at least two different versions of a passage in Josephus about Jesus. One of them is pretty minimal and sedate. The other one talks about Jesus in such glowing terms that the author would have had to be a Christian (while Josephus was not). So the suggestion is that later Christian editors embellished the passage. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
"If the Quran is picked apart by higher criticism then the distinction
between the Bible and the Quran would disappear, which clearly
violates the intention of the Guardian's words."
Susan:
Not necessarily. Nor do I think a scholar can avoid applying methods
to one scripture they would not apply to another.
Gilberto:
Then
perhaps I'm being unclear. I'm not mainly thinking about methods, but I'm
thinking about what conclusions are possible for a Bahai to
adopt.
I am worried that we are again repeating
ourselves and we are losing sight of the broader picture which alas has
tremendous implications for our lives, especially in the 21st Century
and in the 160th year of the Bahi Era
POINT NUMBER 1] there is no doubt that the
Bahi Writings say that the Quran is an absolutely authenticated repository of
the Word of God
POINT NUMBER 2] there is no doubt that the Iqan
and Abdul-Baha speak glowingly about the truth and beauty of theHoly
Bible.
NUMBER 3] there is no doubt that the intention
of the Bahi Faith is
NOT to BELITTLE the Prophets gone before
Bahaullah
NOT to OBSCURE, HOWEVER SLIGHTLY, THE RADIANCE
OF THE PREVIOUS REVELATIONS
NOT to OUT THEM from the hearts of their
followers
NOT to ABROGATE the FUNDAMENTALS of Their
DOCTRINES
NOT to DISCARD any of Their REVEALED Books
[PROMISED DAY IS COME page 108]
Further
The Bahi Faith disclaims any intention of
DWARFING any of the Prophets of the past, or of WHITTLING DOWN THE ETERNAL
VERITY of their teachings. It can,
in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, NOR DOES IT
SEEK TO UNDERMINE THE BASIS OF ANY MAN'S ALLEGIANCE TO THEIR CAUSE.
(Shoghi Effendi: World Order
of Baha'u'llah, Page: 58)
POINT 4]
In fact the Master Abdul-Baha
said:
It is my hope that you may put forth your
most earnest endeavour to accomplish this end, that you may investigate and
study the Holy Scriptures WORD BY WORD so that you may attain knowledge of the
mysteries hidden therein. Be not
satisfied with words, but seek to understand the spiritual meanings hidden in
the heart of the words.
POINT 5]
The Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which
comprises all spiritual things - that is to say, it refers to the spiritual
virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the
essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab, and
Baha'u'llah, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic
cycles. It will never be abrogated,
for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude,
justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence,
purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the
oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.
These divine
qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will
last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be
renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the
spiritual Law of God - that is to say, the human virtues - disappears, and only
the form subsists.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered
Questions, Page: 47)
POINT 6]
The second part of the Religion of God, which
refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of
worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes,
transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries - this part
of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in
each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.
Briefly, what is meant
by the term Holy of Holies is that spiritual Law which will never be modified,
altered or abrogated; and the Holy City means the material Law which may be
abrogated
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered
Questions, Page: 48)
This lowlyservant will continue if any
one shows interest
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RE: Interesting thread
This servant will continue if any one shows interestPOINT 6 reaffirms the above in http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu/msg05969.html ** The religions of God have the same foundation, but the dogmas appearing later have differed. Each of the divine religions has two aspects. The first is essential. It concerns morality and development of the virtues of the human world. This aspect is common to all. It is fundamental; it is one; there is no difference, no variation in it. As regards the inculcation of morality and the development of human virtues, there is no difference whatsoever between the teachings of Zoroaster, Jesus and Baha'u'llah. In this they agree; they are one. The second aspect of the divine religions is nonessential. It concerns human needs and undergoes change in every cycle according to the exigency of the time (`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 168)**POINT 7We need the Divine Teachings RENEWED because humanity has lost sight of the essentials and vested interests emphasize often the non-essentialsWhatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished. From the heaven of God's Will, and for the purpose of ennobling the world of being and of elevating the minds and souls of men, hath been sent down that which is the most effective instrument for the education of the whole human race. The highest essence and most perfect _expression_ of whatsoever the peoples of old have either said or written hath, through this most potent Revelation, been sent down from the heaven of the Will of the All-Possessing, the Ever-Abiding God. (Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 95) notice that "this most potent Revelation has been sent down from the heaven of the Will of God" God forbid it is not from man ...It is from God. and that is difficult for some POINT 8In all the Holy Books of the past there are injunctions and teachings which are to be contextualized in time in history in the human environment.The Law of God changes with respect to every age. Movements such as Salafiyya in Islam and Fundamentalism in Christianity often miss this salient pointhttp://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_781536072/Islamic_Fundamentalism.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_ChristianityPOINT 9Such utterances in the past Books need to be contextualized and cannot be the Will of God in a non-abrogatable formNEW TESTAMENTLUKE 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.LUKELUKE 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in lawOLD TESTAMENTDEUTERONOMY20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:JOSHUA6:20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.In the Quranic Dispensation again the times the conditions the Asbaab e nuzuul [circumstances of revelation] the naasikh and the mansuukh [the abrogating verse and the verse that has to be abrogated all these facets are relevant. Many pages are devoted to these but there is no universal agreement [sadly].THE HOLY QURAN2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. God knoweth, ye know not4:11 God chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two
Re: Interesting thread
So if you want to prove something about the Bible you need to study the Bible specifically and where it came from and how it was put together.
Okay. Before we get there, can you tell me what the Quran says the reason is for God sendingHis prophets? I suppose there were many reasons, or was it always inhopes of perfectly recording the Revelation of God?
Thanks,
Hajir
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Re: A couple of questions
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/15/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Dear Susan, It certain could be a later addition to the text; but, I have seen it advanced with some skill that Josephus was using contemporary Christian tracts as a "source" for information about which he had little direct knowledge (since he had been living in Rome atthe time of the history unfolding). It was not the custom to provide citation for such sources in the scholarship of Josephus' time. Therefore the material could be from Josephus' pen in fact, but tract material nonetheless.There are at least two different versions of a passage in Josephusabout Jesus. One of them is pretty minimal and sedate. The other onetalks about Jesus in such glowing terms that the author would have hadto be a Christian (while Josephus was not). So the suggestion is thatlater Christian edi!
tors
embellished the passage.PeaceGilberto
Dear Gilberto, since you quoted me, I'll answer too.
Josephus manuscript might have been embellished by a Christian's hand later. One cannot be sure. Or, Josephus may have annotated his own work, having in hand a Christian tract to use for an "authority". He did not quote it of course, because no historian quoted anything in those days.
Regards,
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/14/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I don't think we are saying the same thing. Something I've realized a long time ago in my discussions with Bahais is that Bahais tend to have a VERY different understanding of the role of time. If we really agreed I don't see why you would be asking the questions you are asking or making the comments you are making. Hajir: What I meant is that we both agree that what remains of the past Revelations is valuable good, and those who follow them must be respected. Gilberto: You are qualifying/limiting your comment by saying that the Injeel was absolutely perfect *for its time*. I'm not saying that. I don't think that humanity in its essence has changed substantially. Hajir: I don't think the soul changes, but the maturity of the soul does change. Even within my own life, my maturity changes as time passes, as I meet more people learn more things about the world. That's a good process that everyone should go throuh. But lets ignore this for the moment, because now I realize that I don't think I fully understand your perspective. So let me ask you 4 more questions. 1. Do you think that the actual Word of God is timeless? Im honestly not sure what you mean by word of God in your question. If I were to answer according to what I understand of orthdox sunni theology I would say yes, the Quran is the word of God, and beceause of the way it is related to God's attributes, it is uncreated. But speaking for myself, I would say that there are certain principles which due to the human condition should be valid for all human beings for all time. The details of how those principles might depend on the situation, but it doesn't just depend on time passing. I could say more but I'm not certain that I understand your question so maybe I ought to wait before rambling on about stuff which you really don't want to hear about and might confuse the discussion. 2. Do you think that the record of the actual Word of God is timeless? The physical manifestaiton of the scriptures consists of vibrations in the air or markings on paper and ink and those things are all created. I'm not sure how I would articulate the relationship between the eternal uncreated word of God and those markings on paper and ink. 3. Do you think that people of the past were at a disadvantage because they didn't have the actual Word of God? Again, I'm not sure what you mean by word of God here. I think human beings are in mostly the same situation either way. We are thrown into the world and we are told different things by different people. Some of it is good advice, and useful and encourages us towards good positive things. Some of it is bad advice and guides us to harmful or negative things. I would say that in spite of whatever flaws or limitations, religion is generally a positive influence rather than a negative one. So I don't think Christians before Muhammad, or Jews before Jesus were somehow decisively or radically disadvantaged. The coming of Jesus and Muhammad was definitely a mercy and a good thing, and a source of reform and renewal. But I wouldn't say that apart from them, people were just hopelessly damned. The Bible, even in its current form, has alot of good advice in it. 4. Do you think that if the transmission of Word of God was perfectly recorded using a videotape, that the Word of God given to Jesus would consist of the same exact words as the Word of God given to Muhammad? Muhammad (saaws) spoke Arabic while Jesus spoke Aramaic. Actually, that was an interesting way to ask the question. Here is an explanation of the nature of revelation which I especially like. This might be a little long but it might give you some insight into where I am coming from. I'm not saying absolutely every detail is correct. But I really like the way it puts the issue. Some of the terms might be difficult but hopefully it makes enough sense for you to get it. http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Belief_and_Islam/bbooks.htm [begin quote] When a person wants to give an order, to forbid something, to ask something or to give some news, first he thinks about and prepares it in his mind. These meanings in mind are called kalam nafsi, which cannot be said to be Arabic, Persian or English. Their being expressed in various languages does not cause these meanings to change. Words expressing these meanings are called kalam Lafzi. Kalam Lafzi can be said in different languages. So, kalam nafsi of a person is a pure, unchangeable, distinct attribute that exists in its possessor like other attributes such as knowledge, will, discernment, etc., and kalam Lafzi is a group of letters that express kalam nafsi and that come out of the mouth of the person uttering them and that come to the ear. Thus, the Word of Allahu ta'ala is the eternal, everlasting, non-silent and non-creature Word existent with His Person. It is an attribute distinct from the as-Sifat
RE: Interesting thread
Khazeh, I for one am interested, so please continue. It's good to read and study and deepen on the Word of God and the Holy Scriptures, for without Them, we are lost in the sea of idle fancies. Love, BarmakKhazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This servant will continue if any one shows interestPOINT 6 reaffirms the above in http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu/msg05969.html ** The religions of God have the same foundation, but the dogmas appearing later have differed. Each of the divine religions has two aspects. The first is essential. It concerns morality and development of the virtues of the human world. This aspect is common to all. It is fundamental; it is one; there is no difference, no variation in it. As regards the inculcation of morality and the development of human virtues, there is no difference whatsoever between the teachings of Zoroaster, Jesus and Baha'u'llah. In this they agree; they are one. The second aspect of the divine religions is nonessential. It concerns human needs and undergoes change in every cycle according to the exigency of the time (`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 168)**POINT 7We need the Divine Teachings RENEWED because humanity has lost sight of the essentials and vested interests emphasize often the non-essentialsWhatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished. From the heaven of God's Will, and for the purpose of ennobling the world of being and of elevating the minds and souls of men, hath been sent down that which is the most effective instrument for the education of the whole human race. The highest essence and most perfect _expression_ of whatsoever the peoples of old have either said or written hath, through this most potent Revelation, been sent down from the heaven of th! e Will of the All-Possessing, the Ever-Abiding God. (Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 95) notice that "this most potent Revelation has been sent down from the heaven of the Will of God" God forbid it is not from man ...It is from God. and that is difficult for some POINT 8In all the Holy Books of the past there are injunctions and teachings which are to be contextualized in time in history in the human environment.The Law of God changes with respect to every age. Movements such as Salafiyya in Islam and Fundamentalism in Christianity often miss this salient pointhttp://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_781536072/Islamic_Fundamentalism.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_ChristianityPOINT 9Such utterances in the past Books need to be contextualized and cannot be the Will of God in a non-abrogatable formNEW TESTAMENTLUKE 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.LUKELUKE 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in lawOLD TESTAMENTDEUTERONOMY20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spo! il of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:JOSHUA6:20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.In the Quranic Dispensation again the times the conditions the Asbaab e nuzuul [circumstances of revelation] the naasikh and the mansuukh [the abrogating verse and the verse that has to be abrogated all these facets are relevant. Many pages are devoted to these but there is no universal agreement [sadly].THE HOLY QURAN2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may
