"We wept, and wept, till the day dawn" 1844
Title: Untitled Stationery
http://www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadventist/1844/4.html
**When one
catches the spirit of the early Adventists, it is obvious why their
disappointment was so great and bitter. Thousands wept until they had no
strength to weep. Some were so ashamed to face the mocking world that they
dropped out of sight or fled into the wilderness for weeks, even months.
When one sympathetically enters into their experience, it seems
inappropriate to join those who ridiculed them. Listen to Hiram Edson describe
the feelings of his heart:
Passing over the other like manifestations of
the power of God, we glance at our disappointment at the tenth of the seventh
month, 1844. Having the true cry, Behold the Bridegroom cometh, on the tenth
day of the seventh month, and having been early taught by modern orthodoxy
that the coming of the Bridegroom to the marriage would be fulfilled in the
personal second advent of Christ to this earth, (which was a mistaken idea) we
confidently expected to see Jesus Christ and all the holy angels with him; and
that his voice would call up Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the ancient
worthies, and dear friends which had been torn from us by death, and that our
trials and sufferings, with our earthly pilgrimage would close, and we should
be caught up to meet our coming Lord to be forever with him, to inhabit bright
golden mansions in the golden home city prepared for the redeemed. Our
expectations were raised high, and thus we looked for our coming Lord until
the clock tolled 12, at midnight. The day had then passed and our
disappointment became a certainty. Our fondest hopes and expectations were
blasted, and such a spirit of weeping came over us as I never experienced
before. It seemed that the loss of all earthly friends could have been no
comparison. We wept, and wept, till the day
dawn. I mused in my own heart, saying, My advent
experience has been the richest and brightest of all my Christian experience.
If this had proved a failure, what was the rest of my Christian experience
worth? Has the Bible proved a failure? Is there no God, no heaven, no golden
home city, no paradise? Is all this but a cunningly devised fable? Is there no
reality to our fondest hope and expectation of these things? And thus we had
something to grieve and weep over, if all our fond hopes were lost. And as I
said, we wept till the day dawn.1**
1844 AD
[1844 Christian Era] was 1260 AH of the Islamic Era [1000 years after the
"Occultation of the Imam" =Ghaybat e Imam]
May 23,
1844, signalizes the commencement of the most turbulent period of the Heroic
Age of the Baha'i Era, an age which marks the opening of the most glorious
epoch in the greatest cycle which the spiritual history of mankind has yet
witnessed. (Shoghi Effendi: God Passes By, Page:
3)
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Interesting thread
Title: Message
'Abdu'l-Bahá then shared some humorous stories and
laughingly stated that:
Once there were three passengers on a ship: a Muslim, a
Christian and a Jew.
The Muslim prayed, 'O God, take the life of this
Christian!'
The Christian prayed, 'Lord, slay this Muslim.'
Then they asked the Jew why he was not saying anything,
so he prayed, 'O God, accept the prayers of both of
them!'[44]
[—Ahang Rabbani, Tarikh Mu'ayyad
5-6]
|> I had a friend, a Jew, who honestly explained to me that
he|had > had|> a Bahai speak of the Judaic Revelation as
"kindergarten" and|go on to|> explain how later revelations were
higher grades.|
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/18/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have to very much agree with you on this. It is sometimes
> firmly entrenched in the way we think and communicate our
> beliefs to others.
> I had a friend, a Jew, who honestly explained to me that he had > had a Bahai
> speak of the Judaic Revelation as "kindergarten" and go on to
> explain how
> later revelations were higher grades.
Yes, exactly. That is a VERY widespread kind of analogy. MANY of the
analogies used to explain progressive revelation are like that.
> This IS rather elitist in tone and many do not recognize it when > they speak
> about progressive revelation.
Yes.
> When I went on to explain how each of the Messengers had
> the same depth of
> knowledge as each and every other one, but was limited in
> what He could
> transmit by the Will of God. He understood this softened the
> edge to a great
> deal.
I think that that is an improvement but in some respects the problem
is still there. I agree with you that the issue is firmly entrenched.
But I think to satisfactorily deal with it would require a really
radical rearrangement of mental furniture.
And in particular, I think it is something that all people of faith
need to wrestle with. I don't think that Bahais have any advantage
here. In every religious community there are people who come off
elitist and narrow, and in every religious community who are open and
accepting of difference.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 10/18/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> I think Baha'is should publish a book like the "Bible" which> includes the> Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover.> The Baha'i version of this book would include the Old> Testament, the New> Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas.Dear Hajir,Personally I think Christianity and the Bahai faith seem to havesimilar attitudes to what came before. Christians have a "Bible" withthe Old Testament and the New Testament, but on some level they dohave a disparaging attitude towards the Old Testament. The OldTestament laws are seen as a burden and Jesus (as) for some of them,came to free people from that burden. This is ground we've alsocovered in this forum before, but the fact that Christians might holdthe Old Testament as inspired didn't stop Christian anti-semitism.I think Bahai attitudes towards pre!
vious
religions are arguablycomplex, there is some sincerely held positive feelings. But there isalso something else in the mix as well.You can emphasize the positive part, and that's a good thing. But thatdoesn't eliminate the negative side.PeaceGilberto
Dear Gilberto,
I have to very much agree with you on this. It is sometimes firmly entrenched in the way we think and communicate our beliefs to others.
I had a friend, a Jew, who honestly explained to me that he had had a Bahai speak of the Judaic Revelation as "kindergarten" and go on to explain how later revelations were higher grades.
This IS rather elitist in tone and many do not recognize it when they speak about progressive revelation.
When I went on to explain how each of the Messengers had the same depth of knowledge as each and every other one, but was limited in what He could transmit by the Will of God. He understood this softened the edge to a great deal.
I apologized for the lack of wisdom that was truly patent in that example and promised to take it into consideration whenever I spoke of progressive revelation.
So Muhammed had the same depth of Revelation as Baha`u'llah: admitted and acknowledged. And, in the Baha`i view each obeyed God's will in what They said and wrote to pass that Revelation on to mankind.
So, if I have erred in speaking to you, it was out of a desire to be honest and direct in what I have come to believe and to explain why I believe it, not to belittle what you believe nor why you believe it.
Regards,
ScottThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-s!
t in the
message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-stBaha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 10/18/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> I think Baha'is should publish a book like the "Bible" which> includes the> Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover.> The Baha'i version of this book would include the Old> Testament, the New> Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas.Dear Hajir,Personally I think Christianity and the Bahai faith seem to havesimilar attitudes to what came before. Christians have a "Bible" withthe Old Testament and the New Testament, but on some level they dohave a disparaging attitude towards the Old Testament. The OldTestament laws are seen as a burden and Jesus (as) for some of them,came to free people from that burden. This is ground we've alsocovered in this forum before, but the fact that Christians might holdthe Old Testament as inspired didn't stop Christian anti-semitism.I think Bahai attitudes towards pre!
vious
religions are arguablycomplex, there is some sincerely held positive feelings. But there isalso something else in the mix as well.You can emphasize the positive part, and that's a good thing. But thatdoesn't eliminate the negative side.PeaceGilberto
Dear Gilberto,
I have to very much agree with you on this. It is sometimes firmly entrenched in the way we think and communicate our beliefs to others.
I had a friend, a Jew, who honestly explained to me that he had had a Bahai speak of the Judaic Revelation as "kindergarten" and go on to explain how later revelations were higher grades.
This IS rather elitist in tone and many do not recognize it when they speak about progressive revelation.
When I went on to explain how each of the Messengers had the same depth of knowledge as each and every other one, but was limited in what He could transmit by the Will of God. He understood this softened the edge to a great deal.
I apologized for the lack of wisdom that was truly patent in that example and promised to take it into consideration whenever I spoke of progressive revelation.
So Muhammed had the same depth of Revelation as Baha`u'llah: admitted and acknowledged. And, in the Baha`i view each obeyed God's will in what They said and wrote to pass that Revelation on to mankind.
So, if I have erred in speaking to you, it was out of a desire to be honest and direct in what I have come to believe and to explain why I believe it, not to belittle what you believe nor why you believe it.
Regards,
ScottThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-s!
t in the
message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-stBaha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/18/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think Baha'is should publish a book like the "Bible" which
> includes the
> Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover.
> The Baha'i version of this book would include the Old
> Testament, the New
> Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas.
Dear Hajir,
Personally I think Christianity and the Bahai faith seem to have
similar attitudes to what came before. Christians have a "Bible" with
the Old Testament and the New Testament, but on some level they do
have a disparaging attitude towards the Old Testament. The Old
Testament laws are seen as a burden and Jesus (as) for some of them,
came to free people from that burden. This is ground we've also
covered in this forum before, but the fact that Christians might hold
the Old Testament as inspired didn't stop Christian anti-semitism.
I think Bahai attitudes towards previous religions are arguably
complex, there is some sincerely held positive feelings. But there is
also something else in the mix as well.
You can emphasize the positive part, and that's a good thing. But that
doesn't eliminate the negative side.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
Likewise, my Qur'an and Bible and al-Aqdas occupy the highest shelf of my bookshelf (about head-level), and I kiss everyone of them when I open and close them, and I read and study both. It seems dear Mr. Simpson that you are quick to judge.
ajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 10/17/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> > Gilberto,> >> > Obviously Baha'is believe that Islamic laws are unsuitable for the> > modern-times. That's why we have Baha'i Laws.> You think its obvious. And I think its obvious. But apparently alot of> Bahais don't want to admit that their religion says this.> -GilbertoYet, I must say that my Qur'an and Bible are placed next to my Aqdas.
I think Baha'is should publish a book like the "Bible" which includes the Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover.
The Baha'i version of this book would include the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas.
Hajir
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/17/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> > Gilberto,> >> > Obviously Baha'is believe that Islamic laws are unsuitable for the> > modern-times. That's why we have Baha'i Laws.> You think its obvious. And I think its obvious. But apparently alot of> Bahais don't want to admit that their religion says this.> -GilbertoYet, I must say that my Qur'an and Bible are placed next to my Aqdas.
I think Baha'is should publish a book like the "Bible" which includes the Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover.
The Baha'i version of this book would include the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas.
Hajir
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Sanctified Imam Rid.a [the 8th Imam quotes the Bible]
Hi, Gilberto,
>>But what I would wonder is the following. Given that Islamic teachings about
>>Jesus are in certain respects radically different from Christian teachings
>>about Jesus, how long should it actually take for Muslims to read Christian
>>writings and decide that they were not authentic?<<
Speaking as an individual Baha'i, in most cases where I have seen Christians
criticize the Qur'an or Muslims criticize the New Testament literature, they
both have either (1) interpreted certain passages differently from how they are
explained in the Baha'i scriptures or (2) relied upon commentators, such as
Paul and James (rather than on the reported statements of Christ). That is the
most I can say (confidently). Obviously, it would not be appropriate for me to
comment on the appropriate response of Muslims to the New Testament.
>>Sure but Paul would be a source of difference... especially given how the
>>current conversation has been progressing in here.<<
I don't take the statements of Paul differently from how I would take those of
any commentator, i.e., with a grain of salt. Where I think we can learn from
Paul is on the question of the historical context of the first-century church,
not necessarily on his understandings of the Gospel of Christ.
>>Was the Torah put together "accidentally" ?<<
I assume that those who complied it had some object in mind. However, that is
different from intentional alteration.
>>Sure but the Catechism of the Catholic Church lists them all as being part of
>>the Old Testament and the ultimate decision came down on
saying that they were canonical.<<
That is the dominant view right now. There are, however, some Catholic
theologians who even today question the authenticity of the deuterocanonical
books.
My point was that there is a historical precedent within Roman Catholicism for
Protestants relegating the Apocrypha to non-canonical status. In other words,
the Protestants didn't originate the debate. Whatever the dominant view in
Roman Catholicism in 2005, the issue has been debated within both branches of
Christendom.
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * Prof. of Sociology * [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Johnson County Community College, Overland Park, Kansas
913-469-8500 x3376 * Fax 913-469-2589 * VOIP 347-983-0161
Mobile 913-768-4244 * http://MarkFoster.net * Office GEB 151D
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: god passes by Re: The Sanctified Imam Rid.a [the 8th Imam quotes the Bible]
"It was just a logical consequence of what you were saying earlier.
What factual errors are in God Passes By?"
Dear Gilberto,
There are a number of them. I don't wish to go into the details right now.
But the Guardian is not infallible in matters of history.
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Sanctified Imam Rid.a [the 8th Imam quotes the Bible]
On 10/17/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto:
> "What do you mean by corruption and where does Bahaullah clearly deny
> that the NT is corrupted?
> The only passage I've seen talks about how
> the Gospel didn't disappear and is still present among Christians"
Susan:
> It's the passage just before the one you are referring to:
Gilberto:
I think what Bahaullah is calling "corruption" is different from what
I would call "corruption" and so he isn't necessarily disagreeing with
what I'm saying. For that matter you aren't necessarily disagreeing
with what I'm saying. But you seem to be obscuring that fact. You are
saying that the Quran might not be perfectly transmitted and that the
Bahai writings might not be perfectly transmitted. And what I'm saying
is that the Gospel wasn't perfectly transmitted although I might be
more critical of the NT but alot of the core message is still there.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
god passes by Re: The Sanctified Imam Rid.a [the 8th Imam quotes the Bible]
On 10/17/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Ok, so are you saying that Shoghi Effendi could make factual errors
> even when talking about religious subjects?"
> I don't remember saying that, but there are factual errors in texts like God
> Passes By, yes.
It was just a logical consequence of what you were saying earlier.
What factual errors are in God Passes By?
-Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Sanctified Imam Rid.a [the 8th Imam quotes the Bible]
On 10/18/05, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto,
> At 01:10 PM 10/15/2005, you wrote:
> >>I would say no. Even in the Quran there is a condemnation against "those
> >>who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah"
> >>[2:79]<<
> I would need to do a search, but didn't many early Muslims understand that as
> referring to corruption of doctrine?
I have heard similar claims from Christians who were strongly
motivated to argue that the Quran affirmed the current Bible. I
haven't seen early Muslim commentaries which settle the issue. Ibn
Taymiya thought the corruption was more a matter of interpretation
than textual.
But what I would wonder is the following. Given that Islamic teachings
about Jesus are in certain respects radically different from Christian
teachings about Jesus, how long should it actually take for Muslims to
read Christian writings and decide that they were not authentic?
Gilberto:
think Barnabas is a seperate issue. Even I can see that there is
questionable stuff in Barnabas and it seems very possible or even
likely that it is a much later medieval forgery. So in some sense
mentioning Barnabas is a straw dog. I'm talking about looking at the
groups which are definitely older.<<
> I guess you mean a "straw man." However, I could imagine people saying some >
> pretty inappropriate things about some canines, too. ;-)
Gilberto:
Yeah, the Tao Te Ching uses the phrase "straw dog" in a very different
context and I got mixed up.
Mark:
> In any event, I have known both Muslims and (a few) Baha'is who tried to use
> that pseudepigraphal work for apologetic purposes.
Gilberto:
Sure, all I'm saying is I'm not one of them.
Gilberto:
> >>And I'm not sure how Bahais could be expected to respond to Barnabas. It
> >>wouldn't necessarily be the same as Muslims.<<
Mark:
> The arguments I heard from those Baha'is were nearly identical to those I
> heard from Muslims. They also had similar responses to my statement that the
> book is widely regarded as a Moorish forgery. (I suspect they visited the
> same websites.)
Gilberto:
Sure but Paul would be a source of difference... especially given how
the current conversation has been progressing in here.
Gilberto:
> >>I'm not sure what you mean. The point is that if only a fraction of the
> >>"Torah" came from Moses, and the rest of it was put together be other
> >>authors centuries after Moses then that's pretty much what I would describe
> >>as "corruption".<<
Mark:
> Perhaps, but then we are using the word "corruption" to refer to two
> different concepts. Baha'u'llah was objecting to the idea of intentional
> alteration.
Gilberto:
Was the Torah put together "accidentally" ?
Mark:
> By the way, there are some self-defined Christians who do not entirely trust
> the Gospels since, in their view, they were altered by Constantine; and there
> are some Theosophists and New Agers who believe, on very flimsy grounds, that
> most references to reincarnation were deliberately redacted from the biblical
> literatures.
Gilberto:
Sure, and many Rastas blame King James.
About whether the Apocrypha is or isn't treated seperately by Catholics.
Gilberto:
For RCs, the Apocrypha is just part of the Old Testament. I think
they are seperated out because of Protestants but I think they are
treated the same as the rest of the Bible. At least, that's what my
copy of the Catechism seems to suggest.<<
Mark:
> As I understand it, the authenticity of the deuterocanonical (second canon)
> books has been debated throughout the history of the Catholic and Orthodox
> churches. For instance:
> "In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages we find evidence of
> hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current
> friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and
> sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose
> veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact
> standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to
> unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity."
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm
Gilberto:
Sure but the Catechism of the Catholic Church lists them all as being
part of the Old Testament and the ultimate decision came down on
saying that they were canonical.
-Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by emai
RE: Parental consent
Ok, I see the difference.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent
by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and
for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by
federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please
immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message
and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
_
Shop ‘til you drop at XtraMSN Shopping http://shopping.xtramsn.co.nz/home/
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Sanctified Imam Rid.a [the 8th Imam quotes the Bible]
Gilberto,
At 01:10 PM 10/15/2005, you wrote:
>>I would say no. Even in the Quran there is a condemnation against "those who
>>write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah" [2:79]<<
I would need to do a search, but didn't many early Muslims understand that as
referring to corruption of doctrine?
>>I think Barnabas is a seperate issue. Even I can see that there is
>>questionable stuff in Barnabas and it seems very possible or even likely that
>>it is a much later medieval forgery. So in some sense mentioning Barnabas is
>>a straw dog. I'm talking about looking at the groups which are definitely
>>older.<<
I guess you mean a "straw man." However, I could imagine people saying some
pretty inappropriate things about some canines, too. ;-)
In any event, I have known both Muslims and (a few) Baha'is who tried to use
that pseudepigraphal work for apologetic purposes.
>>And I'm not sure how Bahais could be expected to respond to Barnabas. It
>>wouldn't necessarily be the same as Muslims.<<
The arguments I heard from those Baha'is were nearly identical to those I heard
from Muslims. They also had similar responses to my statement that the book is
widely regarded as a Moorish forgery. (I suspect they visited the same
websites.)
>>Sure but it would be naive to think that this doesn't happen in the other
>>direction either now. Or that it didn't happen in the beginning when the
>>canon was being chosen.<<
As a sociologist of religion, I am more interested in the different
constructions of Christianity which developed around various sets of sacred
literature than I am in issues of source criticism and reliability.
For instance, archaeological anthropologists might rightly object to the Book
of Mormon on lack of evidence. However, most cultural anthropologist and
sociologists would be primarily interested in the social and cultural
significance of that book in particular religious communities (irrespective of
criticism).
However, from a historical standpoint, what matters most is whether certain
mss. can be trusted. In other words, if we are discussing the canon, the
principal concern is determining the trustworthiness of a particular text.
>>I'm not sure what you mean. The point is that if only a fraction of the
>>"Torah" came from Moses, and the rest of it was put together be other authors
>>centuries after Moses then that's pretty much what I would describe as
>>"corruption".<<
Perhaps, but then we are using the word "corruption" to refer to two different
concepts. Baha'u'llah was objecting to the idea of intentional alteration.
By the way, there are some self-defined Christians who do not entirely trust
the Gospels since, in their view, they were altered by Constantine; and there
are some Theosophists and New Agers who believe, on very flimsy grounds, that
most references to reincarnation were deliberately redacted from the biblical
literatures.
>>Most Protestants (in my experience) ignore the apocrypha altogether. And some
>>of the proof-texts for some of the more contraversial theological issues
>>(free-will, purgatory, efficacy of prayer for the dead) are actually based in
>>the apocrypha.<<
And, until recently, most Roman Catholics ignored the Bible as a whole. They
were not encouraged to read it.
>>That doesn't sound right. For RCs, the Apocrypha is just part of the Old
>>Testament. I think they are seperated out because of Protestants but I think
>>they are treated the same as the rest of the Bible. At least, that's what my
>>copy of the Catechism seems to suggest.<<
As I understand it, the authenticity of the deuterocanonical (second canon)
books has been debated throughout the history of the Catholic and Orthodox
churches. For instance:
"In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages we find evidence of
hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current
friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and
sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose
veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact
standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to
unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohi
RE: Every NSA gets the same number of votes
The House is elected ultimately by the National Spiritual Assembly members, and
as you point out, those Assemblies may have huge disparities in numbers.
At the next lower level, the delegates to the National Convention are from
Units that are designed to be roughly comparable population-wise. So at
different stages, different principles apply.
There is a somewhat similar principle in the US congress. Representatives are
from Congressional Districts that are, at least in theory, roughly comparable
population-wise. However, Senators -- in many respects the more powerful body
-- there are two of them from every state, regardless of the population of the
state. This is a reflection of the principle that in US jurisprudence, the
federal government derives its authority from the delegated sovereignty of the
individual citizens, and the states, which are viewed as having natural
sovereignty.
There are huge differences between the two, but the point I'm making is that
this principle of equality of sovereigns in one body, and population
representation in another body, is found elsewhere. I believe it is also found
to some degree in the UN bodies.
Brent
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Parental consent
Bah'u'llh has placed great emphasis on the duties of parents toward their
children, and he has urged children to have gratitude in their hearts for their
parents, whose good pleasure they should strive to win as a means of pleasing
God himself.
(January 24, 1993 letter from the Universal House of Justice quoted in the US
NSA publication "Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities" Section 16.17)
Perhaps that is an element of how God wants us to show that gratitude. Our
parents know us extremely well; they have seen marriages come and go. They may
have insights we lack.
In addition, a marriage is a bringing together of two families, and it is
appropriate to ask the heads of those families for their approval.
But approval of voting, etc., these are passing things, far less weighty, so
there is no requirement for us to seek parental consent for these. We are
urged to think for ourselves, this is the appropriate arena for that.
Brent
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
