date:20051026

Dear Marlene,

I don't recall a letter from the House on this subject, but I know the word
translated as savage was babari, lit. Berber. It is a cognate to barbarian.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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Re: Israel according to Qur'an

On 10/26/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto:
 I've wondered about some of the passages I've seen from Bahai sources.
 Would it be fair to say that the Bahai faith is Zionist. (Believes that
 Israel should be a Jewish state)?

Mark:
 Neither Shoghi Effendi nor the Universal House of Justice have taken a
 position on that issue.


What about the central figures? I understand they predated Israel but
not necessarily the Zionist movement. And they could have made
references to prophecy in ways which had implications for Zionism
and/or Israel.



 Of course, there are different types of Zionism. The great neo-Chasidic
 existentialist, Martin Buber, who actually lived in the Holy Land, was
 strongly opposed to political Zionism - to the establishment of a Jewish
 state in Palestine - but he supported cultural Zionism and the right of
 Jews, as well as anyone else, to move to Palestine.

 Dear Mark,

 I think there is evidence that Abdu'l-Baha took this position. He urged His
 fellow Palestinians to accept the immigration of Jews. At the same time He
 said that if Jews attempted to take it all there would be trouble.


Gilberto:
Do you know where one could read that?

Peace

gilberto


 
 
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RE: Israel according to Qur'an

What about the central figures? I understand they predated Israel but
not necessarily the Zionist movement. And they could have made
references to prophecy in ways which had implications for Zionism
and/or Israel.

Dear Gilberto,

If you are asking if They made references to prophecy in ways that could be
taken as supporting Zionism or a Jewish state, I suppose some of their
references to biblical prophecy could be interpreted that way. But Zionism
is a form of nationalism and Baha'is don't support nationalism. Nor is there
any reference to a Jewish state in the Writings. Baha'u'llah and
Abdu'l-Baha use the term Israel in the pre-Zionist sense, as a reference to
Judaism and the Jewish community, not to a state.

 I think there is evidence that Abdu'l-Baha took this position. He urged
His
 fellow Palestinians to accept the immigration of Jews. At the same time He
 said that if Jews attempted to take it all there would be trouble.

Gilberto:
Do you know where one could read that?

It's a pilgrim's note.  Juan Cole posted it a few years ago on H-Bahai. You
might ask him.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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Re: Israel according to Qur'an

On 10/26/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 What about the central figures? I understand they predated Israel but
 not necessarily the Zionist movement. And they could have made
 references to prophecy in ways which had implications for Zionism
 and/or Israel.

 Dear Gilberto,

 If you are asking if They made references to prophecy in ways that could be
 taken as supporting Zionism or a Jewish state, I suppose some of their
 references to biblical prophecy could be interpreted that way.

Ok.

 But Zionism
 is a form of nationalism and Baha'is don't support nationalism. Nor is there
 any reference to a Jewish state in the Writings.

Hmm... I guess one can narrowly define Zionism in a rigid way and then
you can say that you are not Zionist. But the stuff I remember reading
from Bahai sources was broader than that. And it seemed Zionist in
the sense of clearly favoring one side.

Mark:
  I think there is evidence that Abdu'l-Baha took this position. He urged
 His
  fellow Palestinians to accept the immigration of Jews. At the same time He
  said that if Jews attempted to take it all there would be trouble.

 Gilberto:
 Do you know where one could read that?

Susan
 It's a pilgrim's note.  Juan Cole posted it a few years ago on H-Bahai. You
 might ask him.


Oh wait a minute. There is a pilgrim's note I remember posting earlier
the last time I had asked about this question. It has the word
trouble in it but it is totally used in a different way. And it was
from a Bahai webpage not from Juan Cole.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: question about pilgrim note

Susan, is this the same Pilgrim's note you were thinking of earlier?

-Gilberto

On 8/29/05, Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 So I was trying to understand what the relation was between the Bahai
 faith and Zionism and found the following. I understand that pilgrim
 notes aren't authoritative in the Bahai faith and so mainly I'm asking
 if there is anything in the authoritative writings to confirm or deny
 the content of the note. (Actually the entire note has all sorts of
 interesting passages which raise questions about attitudes towards
 race, ethnicity, women, etc. but let me just stick to trying to
 understand zionism first:

 [begin quote]
 The word Israel means Hastening to God. Isra means hastening
 and el means God. The Jews suffered for 2,000 years for
 persecuting Christ, The Son of God, for 3 years; the Moslems and the
 Arabs persecuted Bahá'u'lláh, the Father, for 50 years, so they will
 suffer more and endure greater sufferings. The time of banishment is
 now over for the Jews. They will return to Palestine and Palestine
 will be their home forever. The Moslems and Arabs will be scattered.
 The Arabs suffered severe defeat because they did not respond to the
 call of Bahá'u'lláh. One million Jews came into Israel and one million
 Arabs went out of Israel in 1948 and 1949. The Jews will get all of
 Palestine because the Arabs will make trouble with the Jews and the
 Jews will drive them out. The standard of Israel must be raised -
 there must be more cleanliness - become cleaner - but have no
 luxuries. The Christian Spiritual Center was in Israel, then in
 Greece, then in Rome, where it is now, and the Pope is still its head
 (he is shaking in his boots). The administrative center of Islam is
 Mecca. The Land of Canaan was under Babylon before the time of Saul,
 who made it the first Civic Kingdom. After Babylon, India, Persia,
 then the Greek, and later, the Roman Empire, then came the English
 Mandate and the free state of Israel. This is the Spiritual Center of
 the Bahá'í World. The Shrine of the Bab is the Spiritual Center of the
 Bahá'í World. The Jews are coming into the Faith to support it, but
 they do not know it yet.
 [end quote]

 http://bahai-library.com/?file=brown_haifa_notes

 Peace

 Gilberto


 --
 There are no poets



--
There are no poets


 
 
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Re: Women's rights blasphemy _Please send this article to your friends

Have you heard of Judith Miller?



On 10/24/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4368704.stm
 -- Forwarded message --
  Is fighting for the equality of women a blasphemy???

  Sunday, 23 October 2005, 08:52 GMT 09:52 UK

  Jail term for Afghan journalist


  Ali Mohaqiq Nasab Nasab says he does not recognise the court
  The editor of a women's rights magazine in Afghanistan has
  been sentenced to two years in jail for blasphemy.

  The editor, Ali Mohaqiq Nasab, was convicted after a court in
  Kabul concluded that several articles in his magazine Huquq-e
  Zan were anti-Islamic.

  Correspondents say the case underlines the fragility of
  journalistic freedom in post-Taleban Afghanistan.

  It also highlights a struggle between religious moderates and
  extremists over what form Islam should take.

  Mr Nasab was arrested earlier this month after he published a
  series of controversial articles.


  hspacesrc He wrote what he had the right to write according
  to Afghan law and press freedom and freedom of expressionsrc
  Rahimullah Samande
  Afghanistan Independent Journalists Association

  One of them argued that giving up Islam was not a crime that
  should be punished by death, as sanctioned by some
  interpretations of Islamic Sharia law.

  Other pieces criticised the practice of punishing adultery
  with 100 lashes and argued that men and women should be
  considered by Islamic law to be equals.

  Clerics' ruling

  The Ulema Council, a body of top Islamic clerics, reacted
  strongly against the articles.

  The Ulema Council sent us a letter saying that he should be
  punished so I sentenced him to two years' jail, Judge
  Ansarullah Mawizada told the Associated Press.

  Mr Nasab said that he didn't recognise the court and did not
  accept its verdict.

  The Afghanistan Independent Journalists Association has also
  spoken out against the verdict, saying it was outside the
  law.

  He wrote what he had the right to write according to Afghan
  law and press freedom and freedom of expression, the
  association's president, Rahimullah Samander, told AFP.

  The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists has
  called for his immediate release.

  The editor has three weeks in which to appeal against the
  verdict.

  In 2003, two journalists were arrested in Afghanistan over
  charges of defaming Islam.

  They were later released on the orders of President Hamid
  Karzai.

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4368704.stm



  Among Muslim-majority countries, Pakistan has the harshest
  anti-blasphemy law. In 1982, President Zia ul-Haq introduced
  Section 295B to the Pakistani Code of Criminal Procedure
  punishing defiling the Holy Qu'ran with life imprisonment.
  In 1986, Section 295C was introduced, mandating the death
  penalty for use of derogatory remarks in respect of the Holy
  Prophet.


 






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--
There are no poets

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Re: Universal House of Justice and charity










"Perhaps. But then, again, it is up to the Universal House of Justice how to spend, and what, out of which funds, isn't it?"

The Universal House of Justice would not use funds that had been earmarked for other purposes such as contributions for the upkeep of the Terraces, but they have a great deal of latitude as far as Huquq funds go. 







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Re: Interesting thread








"There is no justification for genocide, for the wholesale killing ofmen, women and children of an entire ethnic group in the Quran."Ordinary" warfare where you make sure not to kill non-combatants,where you allow the enemy to surrender, where you cease hostilitieswhen your opponent does, etc. is not the same thing as the genocidescommanded in the Bible."

So what do you make of the massacre of the BanuQurayza?







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Re: Israel according to Qur'an

"But the stuff I remember readingfrom Bahai sources was broader than that. And it seemed "Zionist" inthe sense of clearly favoring one side."

Dear Gilberto,

It couldn't have been from the Central Figures then. There were no 'sides' at that time.

"Oh wait a minute. There is a pilgrim's note I remember posting earlierthe last time I had asked about this question. It has the word"trouble" in it but it is totally used in a different way. And it wasfrom a Bahai webpage not from Juan Cole."

I'm not sure what that would be about.

warmest, Susan

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Re: question about pilgrim note











Susan, is this the same Pilgrim's note you were thinking of earlier?
No, I'm talking about something from Abdu'l-Baha not Shoghi Effendi. You were looking for things from the Central Figures, no? 







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Re: Women's rights blasphemy _Please send this article to your friends











Have you heard of Judith Miller?
She is the NY Times reporter recently thrown in jail for refusing to name her sources. 







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Re: Israel according to Qur'an

2005-10-26 Thread Hasan Elias







By the way, about Zionism, President of Iran said recently that the Jewish state should be "wiped off the map". This is not tolerance, isn't?  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4378948.stm







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Re: Israel according to Qur'an

On 10/26/05, Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 By the way, about Zionism, President of Iran said recently that the Jewish
 state should be wiped off the map. This is not tolerance, isn't?

I don't know what the context of the remarks were, but in general, in
order for Israel to maintain its character as a Jewish state it has to
deprive the native population of their rights, and enforce a racist
immigration policy. I mean, if everybody was treated fairly and people
were allowed to prosper, demographic considerations would make the
land naturally Arab. In order to stay Jewish the state has to show
intolerance to the people around it.


 
 
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Re: question about pilgrim note

On 10/26/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Susan, is this the same Pilgrim's note you were thinking of earlier?
 No, I'm talking about something from Abdu'l-Baha not Shoghi Effendi. You
 were looking for things from the Central Figures, no?

I feel like this is the first time (we'll seceond) time I'm hearing
that Shoghi Effendi doesn't count as a central figure. Aren't he's
writings and statements authoritative?

-GIlberto


 
 
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Re: Interesting thread

On 10/26/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  There is no justification for genocide, for the wholesale killing of
 men, women and children of an entire ethnic group in the Quran.
 Ordinary warfare where you make sure not to kill non-combatants,
 where you allow the enemy to surrender, where you cease hostilities
 when your opponent does, etc. is not the same thing as the genocides
 commanded in the Bible.

 So what do you make of the massacre of the Banu Qurayza?

In the OT case, the groups living in the promised land before the Jews
got there, had done little to the Jews to bother or attack them. And
at least the commandments in Deuteronomy were for total killing. And
it was a permanent commandments in the Torah. (If you look at a list
of the 613 commandments of the Torah, the several commandments to
commit genocide are there as policy)

In terms of Banu Quraizah, that was a one time thing done in response
to specific actions by that tribe. They broke a treaty that they had
with the Muslims. A siege was put on their community. When they
surrended, some kind of arbitration had to occur to decide what was to
be done to them. They agreed on their own judge (who was not the
prophet) and the judge declared that the men should be killed. The
women and children were spared. It was certainly harsh. But it wasn't
genocide.

-Gilberto


 
 
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RE: Israel according to Qur'an

2005-10-26 Thread Max Jasper

No worries at all! Iran said, today, it is going to wipe out Israel in no
time!

|in order for Israel to maintain its character as a
|Jewish state it has to deprive the native population of their
|rights, and enforce a racist immigration policy.






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Re: question about pilgrim note

2005-10-26 Thread Scott Saylors

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 10/26/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Susan, is this the same Pilgrim's note you were thinking of earlier? No, I'm talking about something from Abdu'l-Baha not Shoghi Effendi. You were looking for things from the Central Figures, no?I feel like this is the first time (we'll seceond) time I'm hearingthat Shoghi Effendi doesn't count as a central figure. Aren't he'swritings and statements authoritative?-GIlberto

Gilberto,

His interpretations are authoritative. In fact for translations into English they DEFINE authoritative.

However, he chose not to BE Abdu'l Baha, because he was not Abdu'l Baha. He was not the Center of the Covenant, He was the Guardian of the Faith.

Shoghi Effendi never revealed a prayer or tablet in English.

He wrote letters, he explained, he guided the Cause, He was not, however, a "Central Figure" those are restricted to the Bab, Baha`u'llah, and Abdu'l Baha.

His essays and books are explicative, but not revelatory.

Regards,
Scott

As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee

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Re: Interesting thread

 In Biblical and in modern terms, killing all the men, taking the women as
 concubines and wives and raising the children as members of the conquering
 tribe, certainly matches the definition for genocide.

I'm finding myself having less and less positive feelings about the
conversation and where you seem to be pushing the conversation.
Islamic rules for warfare strove to protect non-combatants and to
allow the conflict to de-escalate. The Biblical OT rules simply did
not do that. That is a real difference. You may think it is a small
difference. I don't.

-Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-26 Thread Scott Saylors

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In Biblical and in modern terms, killing all the men, taking the women as concubines and wives and raising the children as members of the conquering tribe, certainly matches the definition for genocide.I'm finding myself having less and less positive feelings about theconversation and where you seem to be pushing the conversation.Islamic rules for warfare strove to protect non-combatants and toallow the conflict to de-escalate. The Biblical OT rules simply didnot do that. That is a real difference. You may think it is a smalldifference. I don't.-Gilberto

No need to take it personally, Gilberto. You didn't do any of it.
I agree that the jurisprudence of the affair was probably according to the laws of the tribes. However, I notice that when discussing these things it is a tendency for you to put things in modern terms. And in modern terms there is no difference between the fate of the rebelling tribe in that instance and the fate of the rebelling tribe of Bosnians at the hands of Serbians.

And if in the terms of the time the event we have been speaking of was proper, then perhaps in the terms of time of the Old Testament it was proper then?

History cannot be understood and serve as a lesson for today if one cannot get at least partially into the mindset of the times.

Regards,
Scott

RE: question about pilgrim note

I feel like this is the first time (we'll seceond) time I'm hearing
that Shoghi Effendi doesn't count as a central figure. Aren't he's
writings and statements authoritative?

He's not a Central Figure, but yes his writings are authoritative. Pilgrim
notes are never authoritative however, no matter how strong the isnad.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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Marriage and heaven

2005-10-26 Thread David Friedman

It says in the Writings that those married will be united together while in
heaven. I was just wondering what would happen in the following situation:
One spouse dies, and the other spouse remarries. Would the spouse who had
two husbands/wives be united together with both while in heaven, given that
there was no divorce? Would the two spouses of the same gender united to
their spouse also be united to themselves? How exactly would it work?

Regards,
David

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RE: Marriage and heaven

2005-10-26 Thread Max Jasper

This question is asked from Jesus, and He gives a relatively comprehensive
response. See NT.

|
|It says in the Writings that those married will be united
|together while in
|heaven.  I was just wondering what would happen in the
|following situation:
|One spouse dies, and the other spouse remarries.  Would the
|spouse who had
|two husbands/wives be united together with both while in
|heaven, given that
|there was no divorce?  Would the two spouses of the same
|gender united to
|their spouse also be united to themselves?  How exactly would it work?
|






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RE: Interesting thread

They agreed on their own judge (who was not the
prophet) and the judge declared that the men should be killed. The
women and children were spared. It was certainly harsh. But it wasn't
genocide.

Dear Gilberto,

By 'spared' you mean the women and children were sold into slavery.  In
Bosnia it was mostly the men who were killed as well while they women were
raped (which is the fate of most female slaves.) And what happened in Bosnia
is considered genocide. So by modern definitions, what would be the
difference? Or is it perhaps the case that we can't always judge past events
by modern standards?

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Israel according to Qur'an