Authorship of the Gospels
Baha'u'llah wrote: The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances. (From a previously untranslated Tablet) This passage seems to say that all four of the Gospel writers were disciples and that the common attributions of authorship are correct. The Gospels were written by disciples based on their memory of what Jesus said. I have long assumed that though Baha'u'llah said this He didn't really mean it, but I have no proof of that. I have to imagine there are others here who don't believe that the Gospels were written by disciples. So I'm interested to know how people deal with this passage. I'm not sure why Baha'u'llah would say this if He didn't believe it. It appears to be something He said in response to a question. I certainly have difficulty seeing the Gospels as penned by disciples based on their recollections. My view on the dating of the Gospels would make it unlikely that they were still alive. Also, it's difficult to believe that the Gospels are entirely based on their memories of what Jesus said given the propensity of the Gospel writers to make what appear to be intentional editorial changes. Matthew usually changes 'kingdom of God' to 'kingdom of heaven,' and I don't think that was because Matthew's memory was off. The only other statement regarding authorship is by 'Abdu'l-Baha: Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him. (From a previously untranslated Tablet) His indication that Moses Himself didn't write the Pentateuch seems reasonable to me. Regards, David The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. _ Read the latest Hollywood gossip @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/entertainment __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Authorship of the Gospels
David I have a problem with your reference: "(From a previously untranslated Tablet)". Has it now been authenticated? If it has, then I can believe it and there is no doubt it is the truth. Best wishes Mike - Original Message - From: "David Friedman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Baha'i Studies" Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Authorship of the Gospels Baha'u'llah wrote: The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances. (From a previously untranslated Tablet) This passage seems to say that all four of the Gospel writers were disciples and that the common attributions of authorship are correct. The Gospels were written by disciples based on their memory of what Jesus said. I have long assumed that though Baha'u'llah said this He didn't really mean it, but I have no proof of that. I have to imagine there are others here who don't believe that the Gospels were written by disciples. So I'm interested to know how people deal with this passage. I'm not sure why Baha'u'llah would say this if He didn't believe it. It appears to be something He said in response to a question. I certainly have difficulty seeing the Gospels as penned by disciples based on their recollections. My view on the dating of the Gospels would make it unlikely that they were still alive. Also, it's difficult to believe that the Gospels are entirely based on their memories of what Jesus said given the propensity of the Gospel writers to make what appear to be intentional editorial changes. Matthew usually changes 'kingdom of God' to 'kingdom of heaven,' and I don't think that was because Matthew's memory was off. The only other statement regarding authorship is by 'Abdu'l-Baha: Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him. (From a previously untranslated Tablet) His indication that Moses Himself didn't write the Pentateuch seems reasonable to me. Regards, David The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. _ Read the latest Hollywood gossip @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/entertainment __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http
Re: Authorship of the Gospels
Even for "fundamentalists" or traditionalist Christians, Luke and Mark weren't actually of the 12. And If you read the beginnings of Luke, even the author doesn't claim that his work is an eyewitness account. I wonder if you might be assuming too much about the meaning of the words. If A tells B something. And B passes the message to C. And C writes down "what they remembers of A's words" that doesn't mean C ever met A. -Gilberto On 6/19/06, David Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Baha'u'llah wrote: The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances. (From a previously untranslated Tablet) This passage seems to say that all four of the Gospel writers were disciples and that the common attributions of authorship are correct. The Gospels were written by disciples based on their memory of what Jesus said. I have long assumed that though Baha'u'llah said this He didn't really mean it, but I have no proof of that. I have to imagine there are others here who don't believe that the Gospels were written by disciples. So I'm interested to know how people deal with this passage. I'm not sure why Baha'u'llah would say this if He didn't believe it. It appears to be something He said in response to a question. I certainly have difficulty seeing the Gospels as penned by disciples based on their recollections. My view on the dating of the Gospels would make it unlikely that they were still alive. Also, it's difficult to believe that the Gospels are entirely based on their memories of what Jesus said given the propensity of the Gospel writers to make what appear to be intentional editorial changes. Matthew usually changes 'kingdom of God' to 'kingdom of heaven,' and I don't think that was because Matthew's memory was off. The only other statement regarding authorship is by 'Abdu'l-Baha: Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him. (From a previously untranslated Tablet) His indication that Moses Himself didn't write the Pentateuch seems reasonable to me. Regards, David The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. _ Read the latest Hollywood gossip @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/entertainment __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- "There are no poets" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Authorship of the Gospels
Dear Michael, David I have a problem with your reference: "(From a previously untranslated Tablet)". Has it now been authenticated? If it has, then I can believe it and there is no doubt it is the truth. It no doubt has been authenticated, as this is found in a response from the research department. This is from a letter in the Baha'i Library. Regards, David The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. _ Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @ http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Authorship of the Gospels
> Baha'u'llah wrote: > > The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark > and > Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of > His > utterances. >(From a previously untranslated Tablet) > > This passage seems to say that all four of the Gospel writers were > disciples > and that the common attributions of authorship are correct. Dear David, The passage says nothing about them being disciples. Mark and Luke were not discples, for instance. It's true that Baha'u'llah is not challenging the common attribution of these Gospels, but I doubt if that is even an issue for Him. The > Gospels > were written by disciples based on their memory of what Jesus > said. Again, you are inserting the word 'disciples' which is not in the text. But we know Jesus' sayings were carried down orally before they were written down. No scholar challenges this that I know of, except those that want to deny Jesus' very existence. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Authorship of the Gospels
> I wonder if you might be assuming too much about the meaning of the > words. If A tells B something. And B passes the message to C. And C > writes down "what they remembers of A's words" that doesn't mean C > ever met A. I think you are right, Gilberto. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Authorship of the Gospels
Dear Gilberto, I wonder if you might be assuming too much about the meaning of the words. If A tells B something. And B passes the message to C. And C writes down "what they remembers of A's words" that doesn't mean C ever met A. That's an interesting suggestion. Still, though, the wording doesn't sit well with me if the writers weren't actually there. Regards, David The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. _ Find the coolest online games @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Authorship of the Gospels
David, You are aware of how long it was before the Torah was revealed and when it was actually written down, aren't you? Regards, ScottDavid Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Gilberto,>I wonder if you might be assuming too much about the meaning of the>words. If A tells B something. And B passes the message to C. And C>writes down "what they remembers of A's words" that doesn't mean C>ever met A.That's an interesting suggestion. Still, though, the wording doesn't sit well with me if the writers weren't actually there.Regards,DavidThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you._Find the coolest online games @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-stBaha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Authorship of the Gospels
> That's an interesting suggestion. Still, though, the wording > doesn't sit > well with me if the writers weren't actually there. Dear David, That is because you are incorrigibly literalistic. ;-} warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Authorship of the Gospels
Dear Susan, That is because you are incorrigibly literalistic. ;-} Well I suppose the wording doesn't mean they were all disciples. I guess it's the word 'memory' that made me wonder. Given the oral traditions available at the time, I would say of Mark and Luke that they wrote the Gospels using words of Jesus they knew, not words of Jesus they remembered. But it does look like I'm wrong. Phew! Regards, David The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. _ Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @ http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu