Re: Relativity of truth

[Susan Maneck]

> susan,
>  thank u for exposing me to that Tablet.. is It around anywhere handy in toto?

Yeah, right here:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TU/tu-4.html

I think if we read it carefully this issue of relativity will be much clearer.

warmest, Susan


 
 
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Matt Haase]

What I mean Firestormin, is that not all of the Religious Scriptures agree
on fundamental theological matters. For instance, how am I supposed to
believe in the Hindu Scriptures that list a whole slew of various gods,
while simulteanously believe in the Hebrew and Qur'anic scriptures which
condemn polytheism? Even though I am a 'universalist' at heart, I can't let
a logical fallacy like that go unnoticed in my mind and heart.

peace,




On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 8:13 PM, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Matt,
>  there's a simple way to sort out the idea:
>  tell me which Revealed Text is error...
> nb i dfo nottt say..which commne t by whatever ecclesiatic is just so much
> roo dandruff...
>  but which Revealed Text is error?
>  if none, then...?
>
>
>
>
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> 
 
 
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Re: Relativity of truth

[firestorm]

susan,
 thank u for exposing me to that Tablet.. is It around anywhere handy in toto?
   i would offer that the word "valuable" here is tricky. to my vague 
understadning, "value" points >directly< to that which causes the apprehender 
to see a potential to further his own image of accomplishment, health, 
well-being, etc. and inside that definition we have the Blessed Beauty Saying 
"needs of the age" 
 so..to be concrete: do we protect the environment because it is the One, or 
because it emanated from the One,, or because it came into being by operation 
of the One's Word, or because being poisoned sux?
to the extent we argue about it...we die.
   inside that framework, for this 500k years, it appears that seeing
a valuable output of our thoughts involves seeing the Manifestation as 
Intermediary, or as was discussed during the deconstruction, the Archimedean 
Fulcrum by which all else is moved. 

 
 
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[firestorm]

Matt,
 there's a simple way to sort out the idea:
 tell me which Revealed Text is error...
nb i dfo nottt say..which commne t by whatever ecclesiatic is just so much roo 
dandruff...
 but which Revealed Text is error?
  if none, then...?


 
 
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re: Relativity of truth

[firestorm]

brent,
:"I don't personally know how it
symbolizes truth being relative, other than as meaning Progressive
Revelation:"
 i would say 9 doors is a good starter.
  and putting this as a "historical" statement based on the comments by abu 
fadl is imho far less real than seeing the abjad value.
   bending or conflating threads, as is my wont, if someone does right out of 
love of Kali, and someone does right out of love of Moses, and someone did 
right out of love of their childwhich is shirk? and who did wrong???
  now, if someone blamed Kali for the anger, Moses for their stiff-neckedness, 
or their child's hunger for a theft, will their child, Kali or Moses appear 
with them in the Last Day? 
   looking at it another way, can Truth to be said to have 4 corners?  if 
not...it must always be subject to interpretation from outside the 
paper...intent. if we were in probate, would the intent of the testator be a 
consideration? imho...yes. can the Intent of the Testator be known? only to the 
extent He testifies, there is no God but God, but in the meantime, here's some 
fire for prometheus, some excessive family devotion for Kali, some 
organisational charts for Zeus, as  a partial distribution.


 
 
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RE: Relativity of Truth

[Ian Kluge]

If anyone is interested I will be pleased to send a copy of my paper
"Relativism and the Baha'i Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at Bosch
in May 2007. 

Best wishes,

Ian Kluge 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Poirier
Attorney
Sent: March 25, 2008 11:47 AM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: Relativity of Truth

Matt Haase wrote:

 >>I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced 
me to his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than 
another word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent, 
but unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept 
that since God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of 
the Religious Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the 
Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim 
Polytheism, it is true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one 
scripture, it is true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is 
true. I don't accept that kind of logic, personally.>>

I'm with you, Matt.  Whatever wacky opinions I may express, if I don't 
back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener should not attribute 
these statements as having any bearing whatever on what the Baha'i Faith 
stands for.  That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote through his secretary:

"Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly 
refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make 
to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the 
Word -- and the Word alone."
(From a letter dated 4 June 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to 
the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada; from the Compilation, The 
Individual and Teaching - Raising the Divine Call, p. 39)

Best regards
Brent


 
 
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Brent Poirier Attorney]

Matt Haase wrote:

>>I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced 
me to his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than 
another word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent, 
but unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept 
that since God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of 
the Religious Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the 
Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim 
Polytheism, it is true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one 
scripture, it is true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is 
true. I don't accept that kind of logic, personally.>>


I'm with you, Matt.  Whatever wacky opinions I may express, if I don't 
back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener should not attribute 
these statements as having any bearing whatever on what the Baha'i Faith 
stands for.  That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote through his secretary:


"Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly 
refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make 
to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the 
Word -- and the Word alone."
(From a letter dated 4 June 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to 
the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada; from the Compilation, The 
Individual and Teaching - Raising the Divine Call, p. 39)


Best regards
Brent




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[Fwd: [EDSED] environmental education materials for junior youth]

[Brent Poirier Attorney]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 10:27:34 -0500
Subject: [EDSED] environmental education materials for junior youth

Dear friends,

The National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of the U.S. is
currently reviewing environmental education programs and materials
targeting junior youth (ages 12-15). The Office of External Affairs
is researching what currently exists as well as any statistics or
feedback on implementation.

If you know of or have developed such materials or programs, we
would be grateful to learn of them.  Please send any information to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  with the subject
line: ENVIRONMENTAL EDUCATION.

Thanks for your assistance.

Warmest Bahá'í greetings,

Peter

Peter Adriance

NGO Liaison

National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the U.S.

1320 19th St. NW, Suite 701

Washington, DC 20036

202-833-8990 tel

202-833-8988 fax

_www.bahai.us/sustainable-development_


*Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you.*


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inf

Re: Relativity of truth

[Sen & Sonja]

On 24 Mar 2008 at 22:47, Matt Haase wrote:

> I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced
> me to his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more
> than another word to say 'progressive revelation'.

I guess you mean "meant NOTHING more than ..."  ??

If religious truths were absolute, not relative, then the progressive
revelation of religious truths would be impossible. Relativism is
thus the foundation (the fundamental verity) on which progressive
revelation is built. You could say it works the other way too: if we
did not observe the progressive revelation of religious truths we
would not have to suppose that religious truth must be relative. But
it is not symmetrical: the statement "religious truth is not
absolute, but relative" is a meta-statement. It immediately
interprets and provides a framework for all Bahai truth-statements.
If a statement is absolute ("When Yahya Darabi arrived at Shiraz he
interviewed the Bab three times.") it is not a religious truth. This
statement is history: if it turns out to be wrong, that will not have
any religious significance. At most it would confirm what we already
know, that not everything stated in the Bahai writings is absolutely
true !

I think we have two kinds of 'truth' or two different things for
which we use the words true and truth. One is statements about
absolute truths: it happened or it didn't, gravity sucks or it does
not, and so on. The statments may be accurate or more or less
inaccurate (usually the latter), but what they refer to is supposed
to be a truth in the absolute sense. The second is statements about
non-absolute truths, of which religious truths are one type. Jesus
sis the Christ is an example, and "there is Shylock in us all, we go
to the theatre to see him defeated" is another. "My wife loves me."
The most important things in life relate to truths which are not
absolute.

It's like Heisenberg's principle: a truth which is absolute has no
great human significance, and a truth which has great human
significance is not absolute. An absolute truth can kill us, but we
do not feel that this gives that death great significance. If a piece
falls off an aeroplane and kills all the people on a Concord, that is
noteworthy because it is absurd. Such deaths have no Reason, and it
is absurd that a creature whom we "know" and "feel" is so much more
than mere fact, can be killed by a mere fact. In fact we are all
killed by mere facts in the end, yet we continue to maintain that our
real significance, our "truth" lies elsewhere. That "elsewhere" is
not a realm of absolutes. The modern disease of fundamentalism
consists precisely in treating the truths of the spirit as if they
belong to the realm of absolutes.



On 24 Mar 2008 at 19:08, Brent Poirier Attorney wrote:

> there are two aspects to Revelation -- the essence which remains
> unchanged from age to age, and the "non-essential" part of each
> Revelation which is subject to change in each Dispensation,
as
> the Master explains in Some Answered Questions.

Within the Bahai belief-system, we have two different ways of dealing
with the fact that we teach that Religion is one, while observing
differences. One is to say that a religious teaching has developed
from one religion to the next, it is not essential to the claim that
religion is One. Another is to say that a religious truth has always
been taught, but has been recorded in different terms, corrupted in
transmission, etc.. The latter are called essential teachings and are
supposed not to change.

Such statements have no meaning in, say, the History of religion or
the Phenomenology of Religion: in areas where truth statements are
supposed to have an absolute, factual referand, such statements are
false or unfalsifiable (ie meaningless). Nevertheless, they express a
truth which we, and many people of all religions, feel and
experience: that "being religious" is one thing, that "God" by
whatever name refers to one ineffable person. '

The teaching that "religion is One" is itself a teaching in the Bahai
Faith, but not in all religions. It is not something that the Hebrew
prophets felt or taught about the religions they encountered:

18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not
one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down
to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
(King James Bible, 3 Kings)

> There are plenty of absolute statements in Baha'u'llah's Writings,
> though I am not sure you are saying there aren't.

I understand absolute statments about absolute matters as peripheral
to Baha'u'llah's message, and possibly wrong. And I understand
statements about truly important, spiritual matters as relative, not
absolute statements.

> I don't think that the principle of the relativity of religious truth
> means that He is asking us to see everything He writes, through that
> filter.  Again, I don't think that's what you're saying.

I *do* think and