Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Susan Maneck]

I can't see that your qoute had any relevance to the context whatsoever.

On 3/27/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Uncharacteristically Susan, you misunderstood the reason for my quoting that
> particular passage.  We do not teach Jews in Israel.  We do not teach anyone
> in Israel.
>
> Look at the context in which I posted the quote and give it some thought.
>
> Richard.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
>
> The passage you cited has absolutely nothing to do with the question
> of what would resolve the Arab-Israeli dispute. The way you used that
> passage is certainly *not* reflective of the way Baha'u'llah tells us
> to deal with non-Baha'is. This is.
>
> Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness
> and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a
> jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language
> of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil
> its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it,
> leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye
> deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts
> of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with
> meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and
> understanding
>
> (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)
>
>
> On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Am I to understand you to intend to say: "This Word of Baha'u'llah
> resolves
> > nothing?"
> >
> > Richard.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> >
> > And what Christian or Muslim would not the say the same?
> >
> > This resolves nothing. It just makes us like all the other religions
> > making exclusive claims.
> >
> > On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I believe you have closely described the matter.  In the Writings, it
> > seems
> > > to me, it has been put in several ways.  Following is one.
> > >
> > > "Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth
> > dead,
> > > shall never live."(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of
> > Baha'u'llah,
> > > p. 213)
> > >
> > > Dominus vobiscum.
> > >
> > > Richard.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: Matt Haase
> > > To: Baha'i Studies
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 3:16 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> > >
> > >
> > > So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will be
> no
> > > peace? That is the message of the Faith?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.
> > >
> > > Richard.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> > > ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and
> is
> > > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> > entity
> > > named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
> privacy
> > > and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
> > is
> > > not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> > dissemination,
> > > distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
> have
> > > received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
> > reply
> > > and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> > > attachments thereto. Thank you.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: Lara Kearns
> > > To: Baha'i Studies
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
> > > Subject: Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Begin forwarded message:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> > > >
> > > > (with English sub-titles)
> > > >
> > > > It is so simple...why is there a problem?
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> > > ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and
> is
> > > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> > entity
> > > named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
> privacy
> > > and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
> > is
> > > not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> > dissemination,
> > > distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
> have
> > > received this

Re: Relativity of Truth

[Brent Poirier Attorney]

Sen wrote:

>> . . . the statement "religious truth is not
absolute, but relative" is a meta-statement. It immediately
interprets and provides a framework for all Bahai truth-statements.
If a statement is absolute ("When Yahya Darabi arrived at Shiraz he
interviewed the Bab three times.") it is not a religious truth. This
statement is history: if it turns out to be wrong, that will not have
any religious significance. At most it would confirm what we already
know, that not everything stated in the Bahai writings is absolutely
true ! >>


My view is that to understand what the Guardian means by the relativity 
of truth, we have to look at all of the passages where he made that 
statement.  Among these passages from him we see that he wrote that the 
structure of the Mashriq incorporates this principle, and that it is a 
major theme of the Iqan.  The Guardian is not bringing up some entirely 
new reality in the Faith; he is its Interpreter, not the Originator of 
new teachings.


So whatever the Guardian means by this, has to have its seed in the 
Writings of Baha'u'llah or the Master.  And we don't have to scour all 
of Their Writings to find what the Guardian is referring to; we can 
sincerely look at the structure of the Mashriq and at the text of the 
Iqan, and see what's there.


I don't see anything about relativity in the Iqan, in any sense except 
that there is a succession of Prophets, and each Prophet changes the 
laws in accordance with the needs of His age:


"in all Dispensations the law of prayer hath constituted a fundamental 
element of the Revelation of all the Prophets of God -- a law the form 
and the manner of which hath been adapted to the varying requirements of 
every age."  (Iqan, p. 39)


"That city is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and 
dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of 
Jesus the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad the Messenger of God the 
Qur'án; in this day the Bayan; and in the dispensation of Him Whom God 
will make manifest His own Book -- the Book unto which all the Books of 
former Dispensations must needs be referred. . . " (Iqan, p. 199)


"By "heaven" is meant the heaven of divine Revelation, which is elevated 
with every Manifestation, and rent asunder with every subsequent one. By 
"cloven asunder" is meant that the former Dispensation is superseded and 
annulled." (Iqan, p. 44)


If one takes the statement that "religious truth is not absolute, but 
relative" as a broad sweep about the nature of all Revelation, then your 
 conclusions logically follow.  But I respectfully disagree with the 
premise because:


- It has no antecedents in the Texts

- It is not found in the Iqan or in the design of the Mashriq

- It is taken out of context; and when context is provided, the Guardian 
states plainly that he is talking about Progressive Revelation.


Just my view.
Best regards
Brent




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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Richard H. Gravelly]

Uncharacteristically Susan, you misunderstood the reason for my quoting that
particular passage.  We do not teach Jews in Israel.  We do not teach anyone
in Israel.

Look at the context in which I posted the quote and give it some thought.

Richard.


- Original Message -
From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song


The passage you cited has absolutely nothing to do with the question
of what would resolve the Arab-Israeli dispute. The way you used that
passage is certainly *not* reflective of the way Baha'u'llah tells us
to deal with non-Baha'is. This is.

Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness
and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a
jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language
of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil
its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it,
leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye
deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts
of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with
meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and
understanding

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)


On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Am I to understand you to intend to say: "This Word of Baha'u'llah
resolves
> nothing?"
>
> Richard.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
>
> And what Christian or Muslim would not the say the same?
>
> This resolves nothing. It just makes us like all the other religions
> making exclusive claims.
>
> On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I believe you have closely described the matter.  In the Writings, it
> seems
> > to me, it has been put in several ways.  Following is one.
> >
> > "Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth
> dead,
> > shall never live."(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of
> Baha'u'llah,
> > p. 213)
> >
> > Dominus vobiscum.
> >
> > Richard.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Matt Haase
> > To: Baha'i Studies
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 3:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> >
> > So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will be
no
> > peace? That is the message of the Faith?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.
> >
> > Richard.
> >
> >
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> > ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and
is
> > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> entity
> > named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
privacy
> > and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
> is
> > not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> dissemination,
> > distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
have
> > received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
> reply
> > and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> > attachments thereto. Thank you.
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Lara Kearns
> > To: Baha'i Studies
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
> > Subject: Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > >
> > > Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> > >
> > > (with English sub-titles)
> > >
> > > It is so simple...why is there a problem?
> > >
> > > http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> > ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and
is
> > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> entity
> > named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
privacy
> > and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
> is
> > not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> dissemination,
> > distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
have
> > received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
> reply
> > and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> > attachments thereto. Thank you.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity
> named above. T

Re: Relativity of Truth

[Susan Maneck]

Dear Gilberto,

I think the Bab was saying something along these lines. If God is
truly unknowable and wholly transcendent then any attempt to describe
Him including saying God is One is inadequate.

warmest, Susan

On 3/26/08, Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, actually there is a rather philosophical passage in Nahjul
> Balagha (I don't know how Bahais necessarily view that text) which
> actually does say something like that. (Or at least, one thing reminds
> me of the other) But I don't think it then provides license for
> polytheism.
>
> Sermon 151:
>
> Praise be to Allah who is proof of His existence through His creation,
> of His being external through the newness of His creation, and through
> their mutual similarities of the fact that nothing is similar to Him.
> Senses cannot touch Him and curtains cannot veil Him, because of the
> difference between the Maker and the made, the Limiter and the limited
> and the Sustainer and the sustained.
>
> He is One but not by the first in counting, is Creator but not through
> activity or labour, is Hearer but not by means of any physical organ,
> is Looker but not by a stretching of eyelids, is Witness but not by
> nearness, is Distinct but not by measurement of distance, is Manifest
> but not by seeing and is Hidden but not by subtlety (of body). He is
> Distinct from things because He overpowers them and exercises might
> over them, while things are distinct from Him because of their
> subjugation to Him and their turning towards Him.
>
> He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who
> numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a
> description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him. He is the Knower
> even though there be nothing to be known. He is the Sustainer even
> though there be nothing to be sustained. He is the Powerful even
> though there be nothing to be overpowered.
>
> [...]
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > If you ask a question like "How many gods/God is there?" The standard
> >  > Muslim answer is "one". A typical Buddhist answer is "zero". And a
> >  > possible Hindu answer is 3003. And yet in some sense the Bahais seem
> >  > to affirm all these different answers simultaneously.
> >
> >  Dear Gilberto,
> >
> >  So does Hinduism.
> >
> >  > Who said that to say "God is One" is shirk?
> >
> >  The Bab, but I always have trouble finding the exact quote. How do you
> >  get a key word out of "God is One"?
> >
> >  wamrest, Susan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto 
> > ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is 
> > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or 
> > entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state 
> > privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this 
> > message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, 
> > dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly 
> > prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately 
> > notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this 
> > e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
> >
> >
> >  __
> >
> >
> >
> > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Gilberto Simpson]

Well, actually there is a rather philosophical passage in Nahjul
Balagha (I don't know how Bahais necessarily view that text) which
actually does say something like that. (Or at least, one thing reminds
me of the other) But I don't think it then provides license for
polytheism.

Sermon 151:

Praise be to Allah who is proof of His existence through His creation,
of His being external through the newness of His creation, and through
their mutual similarities of the fact that nothing is similar to Him.
Senses cannot touch Him and curtains cannot veil Him, because of the
difference between the Maker and the made, the Limiter and the limited
and the Sustainer and the sustained.

He is One but not by the first in counting, is Creator but not through
activity or labour, is Hearer but not by means of any physical organ,
is Looker but not by a stretching of eyelids, is Witness but not by
nearness, is Distinct but not by measurement of distance, is Manifest
but not by seeing and is Hidden but not by subtlety (of body). He is
Distinct from things because He overpowers them and exercises might
over them, while things are distinct from Him because of their
subjugation to Him and their turning towards Him.

He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who
numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a
description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him. He is the Knower
even though there be nothing to be known. He is the Sustainer even
though there be nothing to be sustained. He is the Powerful even
though there be nothing to be overpowered.

[...]


On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If you ask a question like "How many gods/God is there?" The standard
>  > Muslim answer is "one". A typical Buddhist answer is "zero". And a
>  > possible Hindu answer is 3003. And yet in some sense the Bahais seem
>  > to affirm all these different answers simultaneously.
>
>  Dear Gilberto,
>
>  So does Hinduism.
>
>  > Who said that to say "God is One" is shirk?
>
>  The Bab, but I always have trouble finding the exact quote. How do you
>  get a key word out of "God is One"?
>
>  wamrest, Susan
>
>
>
>
>
>  The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto 
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is 
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity 
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy 
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is 
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, 
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have 
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply 
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any 
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>  __
>
>
>
> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Susan Maneck]

The passage you cited has absolutely nothing to do with the question
of what would resolve the Arab-Israeli dispute. The way you used that
passage is certainly *not* reflective of the way Baha'u'llah tells us
to deal with non-Baha'is. This is.

Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness
and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a
jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language
of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil
its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it,
leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye
deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts
of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with
meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and
understanding

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)


On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Am I to understand you to intend to say: "This Word of Baha'u'llah resolves
> nothing?"
>
> Richard.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
>
> And what Christian or Muslim would not the say the same?
>
> This resolves nothing. It just makes us like all the other religions
> making exclusive claims.
>
> On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I believe you have closely described the matter.  In the Writings, it
> seems
> > to me, it has been put in several ways.  Following is one.
> >
> > "Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth
> dead,
> > shall never live."(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of
> Baha'u'llah,
> > p. 213)
> >
> > Dominus vobiscum.
> >
> > Richard.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Matt Haase
> > To: Baha'i Studies
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 3:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> >
> > So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will be no
> > peace? That is the message of the Faith?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.
> >
> > Richard.
> >
> >
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> > ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> entity
> > named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> > and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
> is
> > not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> dissemination,
> > distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> > received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
> reply
> > and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> > attachments thereto. Thank you.
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Lara Kearns
> > To: Baha'i Studies
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
> > Subject: Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > >
> > > Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> > >
> > > (with English sub-titles)
> > >
> > > It is so simple...why is there a problem?
> > >
> > > http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> > ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> entity
> > named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> > and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
> is
> > not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
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> > received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
> reply
> > and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
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> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Richard H. Gravelly]

Am I to understand you to intend to say: "This Word of Baha'u'llah resolves
nothing?"

Richard.


- Original Message -
From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song


And what Christian or Muslim would not the say the same?

This resolves nothing. It just makes us like all the other religions
making exclusive claims.

On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I believe you have closely described the matter.  In the Writings, it
seems
> to me, it has been put in several ways.  Following is one.
>
> "Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth
dead,
> shall never live."(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of
Baha'u'llah,
> p. 213)
>
> Dominus vobiscum.
>
> Richard.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Matt Haase
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
>
> So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will be no
> peace? That is the message of the Faith?
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.
>
> Richard.
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Lara Kearns
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
> Subject: Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> >
> > Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> > (with English sub-titles)
> >
> > It is so simple...why is there a problem?
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
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> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>


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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Susan Maneck]

And what Christian or Muslim would not the say the same?

This resolves nothing. It just makes us like all the other religions
making exclusive claims.

On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I believe you have closely described the matter.  In the Writings, it seems
> to me, it has been put in several ways.  Following is one.
>
> "Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead,
> shall never live."(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah,
> p. 213)
>
> Dominus vobiscum.
>
> Richard.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Matt Haase
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
>
> So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will be no
> peace? That is the message of the Faith?
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.
>
> Richard.
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Lara Kearns
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
> Subject: Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> >
> > Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> > (with English sub-titles)
> >
> > It is so simple...why is there a problem?
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
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> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> 
 
 
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>
> 

Re: Relativity of Truth

[Susan Maneck]

> I don't know, I just feel that the Qur'an intends itself to be quite literal
> when talking about the Oneness and Uniqueness of God.

I'm sure it does. The Qur'an is trying to draw people away from idol
worship.  The question is, what do our own Writings intend?


 
 
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Susan Maneck]

> If you ask a question like "How many gods/God is there?" The standard
> Muslim answer is "one". A typical Buddhist answer is "zero". And a
> possible Hindu answer is 3003. And yet in some sense the Bahais seem
> to affirm all these different answers simultaneously.

Dear Gilberto,

So does Hinduism.

> Who said that to say "God is One" is shirk?

The Bab, but I always have trouble finding the exact quote. How do you
get a key word out of "God is One"?

wamrest, Susan


 
 
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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Richard H. Gravelly]

I believe you have closely described the matter.  In the Writings, it seems
to me, it has been put in several ways.  Following is one.

"Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead,
shall never live."(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah,
p. 213)

Dominus vobiscum.

Richard.


- Original Message -
From: Matt Haase
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song


So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will be no
peace? That is the message of the Faith?




On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.

Richard.



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attachments thereto. Thank you.



- Original Message -
From: Lara Kearns
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
Subject: Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song






Begin forwarded message:

>
> Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
> (with English sub-titles)
>
> It is so simple...why is there a problem?
>
> http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8





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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Matt Haase]

So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will be no
peace? That is the message of the Faith?




On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  *The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.*
> **
> *Richard.*
>
>
>  - Original Message -
> *From:* Lara Kearns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* Baha'i Studies 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
> *Subject:* Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> >
> > Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> > (with English sub-titles)
> >
> > It is so simple...why is there a problem?
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
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> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> 
 
 
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Matt Haase]

I don't know, I just feel that the Qur'an intends itself to be quite literal
when talking about the Oneness and Uniqueness of God.


On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:13 PM, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> matt,
>  what logical fallacy?
>  i mean this dead seriously.
>  if to say God is One is shirk...what is more shirky about 6 or 12? off
> hand, in what Text are u or i given Authority to classify 1st degree, 2nd
> degree, 3rd degree, or involuntary shirk?
>  or are we all guilty of involuntary shirk by reason of our having
> material bodies? and thus yet, another proof of original sin in conformance
> with he Master's explanation. and only punishible to the degree we refuse to
> forgive others of the same crime? --Lor'ds Prayer. and who does the
> punishing? us. for we have met the enemy and he is uspogo
>
>   it's a logical fallacy to say that light is a particle, or it's a wave.
> it can't be both. that;s not logical. o..never mind.
> it's just True.
>  "things don;t have to be possible--they just have to be true"-from the
> 2nd book of His dark Materials...known in usa as the golden compass.
>   einstein resolves the issue percisely how Baha'u'llah Told him to in the
> Iqan...it depends on ur pov.
>   from outside the system (godel's hypothesis) the results can be
> Reported.
>   inside the system, nothing knows what it is.
> "she turned my wave lengths into particles by the power of observance,
> sometimes on the sly" --in old louisville, serpent wisdom.
>   "at one time We Said...whatever.. at another We Said...hmmm. something
> else, anyway...can u just get ur game on and go do It? "
>  ok.. that may be a paraphrase:-)
>   this can leave one paralysed with..but how do i >>>know< and the Voice in It's unutterable mercy created smashmouth to tell
> u...u'll never know if u don;t go.
>
>
>
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> 
 
 
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Gilberto Simpson]

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 4:13 PM, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> matt,
>   what logical fallacy?

If you ask a question like "How many gods/God is there?" The standard
Muslim answer is "one". A typical Buddhist answer is "zero". And a
possible Hindu answer is 3003. And yet in some sense the Bahais seem
to affirm all these different answers simultaneously.

>   i mean this dead seriously.

I tried to give you a straightforward answer.

>   if to say God is One is shirk...what is more shirky about 6 or 12?


Who said that to say "God is One" is shirk?


 
 
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[firestorm]

susan,
 awesome, thank u again.
 i would, to this point extract 4 samples, intactish, to the point of an 
outline, with 2 phrases emphasized by me in the effort to increase the 
common ground:
 ""or the response would have run counter to wisdom and been >incompatible 
with that which is current amongst men<<<.

At present, however, it behoveth us to follow His injunction to “leave them to 
their vain disputes”. 

By the Intellect mentioned above is meant the universal divine Mind. 

A divine Manifestation Who hath extolled and magnified the one true God, 
exalted be His glory, Who hath borne witness to His knowledge and confessed 
that His Essence is sanctified above all things and exalted beyond every 
comparison—such a Manifestation hath been called< at various 
times a worshipper of the sun or a fire-worshipper. How numerous are those 
sublime Manifestations and Revealers of the Divine of Whose stations the people 
remain 33  wholly unaware...


 
 
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[firestorm]

matt,
 what logical fallacy?
 i mean this dead seriously.
 if to say God is One is shirk...what is more shirky about 6 or 12? off hand, 
in what Text are u or i given Authority to classify 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd 
degree, or involuntary shirk?
 or are we all guilty of involuntary shirk by reason of our having material 
bodies? and thus yet, another proof of original sin in conformance with he 
Master's explanation. and only punishible to the degree we refuse to forgive 
others of the same crime? --Lor'ds Prayer. and who does the punishing? us. for 
we have met the enemy and he is uspogo
   
   it's a logical fallacy to say that light is a particle, or it's a wave. it 
can't be both. that;s not logical. o..never mind.
it's just True.
 "things don;t have to be possible--they just have to be true"-from the 2nd 
book of His dark Materials...known in usa as the golden compass.
   einstein resolves the issue percisely how Baha'u'llah Told him to in the 
Iqan...it depends on ur pov.
   from outside the system (godel's hypothesis) the results can be Reported.
   inside the system, nothing knows what it is. 
"she turned my wave lengths into particles by the power of observance, 
sometimes on the sly" --in old louisville, serpent wisdom.
   "at one time We Said...whatever.. at another We Said...hmmm. something else, 
anyway...can u just get ur game on and go do It? "
  ok.. that may be a paraphrase:-)
   this can leave one paralysed with..but how do i >>>know

Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Richard H. Gravelly]

The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.

Richard.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Lara Kearns 
  To: Baha'i Studies 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
  Subject: Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song






  Begin forwarded message: 

  > 
  > Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song 
  > 
  > (with English sub-titles) 
  > 
  > It is so simple...why is there a problem? 
  > 
  > http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8 

   



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Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Lara Kearns]

Begin forwarded message:

>
> Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
> (with English sub-titles)
>
> It is so simple...why is there a problem?
>
> http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8



 
 
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RE: Relativity of Truth

[Jilla Simmons]

Yes, please send an attachment to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
Thanks,
jilla Simmons
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:23:34 -0800> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: 
> Relativity of Truth> To: bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > If anyone is interested I 
> will be pleased to send a copy of my paper> "Relativism and the Baha'i 
> Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at Bosch> in May 2007. > > Best 
> wishes,> > Ian Kluge > > 
 
 
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-Original Message-
 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent 
> Poirier> Attorney> Sent: March 25, 2008 11:47 AM> To: Baha'i Studies> 
> Subject: Re: Relativity of Truth> > Matt Haase wrote:> > >>I had a 
> conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced > me to his idea 
> that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than > another word to 
> say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent, > but unconvincing 
> (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept > that since God is the 
> Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of > the Religious Scriptures 
> is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the > Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is 
> true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim > Polytheism, it is true. If God 
> condemns the belief in the Trinity in one > scripture, it is true. But if God 
> affirms the Trinity later on, it is > true. I don't accept that kind of 
> logic, personally.>>> > I'm with you, Matt. Whatever wacky opinions I may 
> express, if I don't > back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener 
> should not attribute > these statements as having any bearing whatever on 
> what the Baha'i Faith > stands for. That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote 
> through his secretary:> > "Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are 
> enjoined to constantly > refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any 
> explanations we make > to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must 
> be based on the > Word -- and the Word alone."> (From a letter dated 4 June 
> 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to > the National Spiritual Assembly 
> of Canada; from the Compilation, The > Individual and Teaching - Raising the 
> Divine Call, p. 39)> > Best regards> Brent> > > > > The information contained 
> in this e-mail and any attachments thereto> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson 
> County Community College ("JCCC") and is> intended to be confidential and for 
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RE: Relativity of Truth

[Jilla Simmons]

Yes, please send an attachment to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
Thanks,
jilla Simmons
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:23:34 -0800> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: 
> Relativity of Truth> To: bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > If anyone is interested I 
> will be pleased to send a copy of my paper> "Relativism and the Baha'i 
> Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at Bosch> in May 2007. > > Best 
> wishes,> > Ian Kluge > > 
 
 
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-Original Message-
 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent 
> Poirier> Attorney> Sent: March 25, 2008 11:47 AM> To: Baha'i Studies> 
> Subject: Re: Relativity of Truth> > Matt Haase wrote:> > >>I had a 
> conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced > me to his idea 
> that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than > another word to 
> say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent, > but unconvincing 
> (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept > that since God is the 
> Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of > the Religious Scriptures 
> is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the > Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is 
> true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim > Polytheism, it is true. If God 
> condemns the belief in the Trinity in one > scripture, it is true. But if God 
> affirms the Trinity later on, it is > true. I don't accept that kind of 
> logic, personally.>>> > I'm with you, Matt. Whatever wacky opinions I may 
> express, if I don't > back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener 
> should not attribute > these statements as having any bearing whatever on 
> what the Baha'i Faith > stands for. That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote 
> through his secretary:> > "Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are 
> enjoined to constantly > refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any 
> explanations we make > to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must 
> be based on the > Word -- and the Word alone."> (From a letter dated 4 June 
> 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to > the National Spiritual Assembly 
> of Canada; from the Compilation, The > Individual and Teaching - Raising the 
> Divine Call, p. 39)> > Best regards> Brent> > > > > The information contained 
> in this e-mail and any attachments thereto> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson 
> County Community College ("JCCC") and is> intended to be confidential and for 
> the use of only the individual or entity> named above. The information may be 
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Relativity of Truth

[Sen & Sonja]

> If anyone is interested I will be pleased to send a copy of my paper
> "Relativism and the Baha'i Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at
> Bosch in May 2007.

Yes, please
Sen




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RE: Relativity of Truth

[Sand1844]

Ian,  Please send as attachment to:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Thanks,
   Sandy Pauer
   Loveland, CO

Ian Kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  If anyone is interested I will be pleased to send a copy of my paper
"Relativism and the Baha'i Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at Bosch
in May 2007. 

Best wishes,

Ian Kluge 


 
 
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-Original Message-
 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Poirier
Attorney
Sent: March
   
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Matt Haase]

Hi Ian,

I would like to read that paper.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Ian Kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If anyone is interested I will be pleased to send a copy of my paper
> "Relativism and the Baha'i Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at
> Bosch
> in May 2007.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ian Kluge
>
> 
 
 
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is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be 
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-Original Message-
 

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Poirier
> Attorney
> Sent: March 25, 2008 11:47 AM
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Subject: Re: Relativity of Truth
>
> Matt Haase wrote:
>
>  >>I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced
> me to his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than
> another word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent,
> but unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept
> that since God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of
> the Religious Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the
> Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim
> Polytheism, it is true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one
> scripture, it is true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is
> true. I don't accept that kind of logic, personally.>>
>
> I'm with you, Matt.  Whatever wacky opinions I may express, if I don't
> back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener should not attribute
> these statements as having any bearing whatever on what the Baha'i Faith
> stands for.  That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote through his secretary:
>
> "Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
> refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make
> to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the
> Word -- and the Word alone."
> (From a letter dated 4 June 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to
> the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada; from the Compilation, The
> Individual and Teaching - Raising the Divine Call, p. 39)
>
> Best regards
> Brent
>
>
>
>
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